i am going to change our machines to a premix coolant rather than water coolant filters. In general can the filter system be just turned off, blocked off. or are machines specific, should i by pass the filter and keep that system flowing to be safe?? i have heard of blank filters. PC2008 & PC3008, D85, D68, and 4 Ealier Cummins generators cheers max
Bala, Komatsu recommends turning off coolant filters if you run thier pre-mixed "super coolant". If not running "super coolant" they recommend leaving coolant filters in system and replacing at scheduled intervals. The reason for this is the coolant filters supply supplemental coolant additives. The "super coolant" has an additive package that doesn't need recharged like conventional coolants.
You need the filters on these engines. I would leave the filters on .You need the filters even if you are running premix coolant .It will catch any scale floatting around in the coolant system and coolant filters supply supplemental coolant additives
thanks for the info, i will be using a Mobil premix coolant as Mobil are our supplier, I will be running all our various machines on the one coolant. I looked at Komatsu coolant, but the logistics of getting 205l drums from out komatsu supplier is not simple. we either air or sea frieght to the island. My concern with leaving the filters in place is the mixing of the additives in the coolant with the premix. My concern with blocking them off was if that part of the system is needed. i am just replacing a three year old PC300 radiator, and have recently replaced two cummins aluminium generator radiators, Obviously the maintenance program that has been in place with water coolant filters has not worked, but then their has not been a preventive maintenance program here until I got here. I think i would have to take the scale over the risk of a reaction between different addatives from the filters and the premix. Does anyone know if there are filter only options?
Ask you supplier about the addatives in their coolant and the one in the filters .And see if they will work together.We had a genset end go bad because it was not marine grade unit .It was used out on coast guard pier for a long time.That mabe be why you are replace someparts.Salt air is hard on mchines
We use Mobil on our machines. Exactly what Mobil Coolant are you planning on running ..? There are 2 types, one (sold as Mobil Mining Coolant in my area, may have a different brand name in yours) which is similar to the old DEAC spec that uses SCA, on the data sheet it will show it meets ASTM D6210 spec. The second type is an Extended Life Coolant (50/50 pre-mixed Extended Life Coolant) which is a silicate-free OAT coolant. On the Data Sheet it will meet ASTM D6210 but also will meet ASTM D5345. This is what we use. ASTM D5345 is the higher of the 2 specifications, in case you haven't guessed. 1. If you use the DEAC/SCA type of coolant you need to leave the filter in circuit and replace it as per the machine/engine manufacturer's service recommendations. Basically you are replacing your existing coolant with Mobil's equivalent. The coolant filter contains a "brick" of additives (you can hear it rattle if you shake a new filter) that get dissolved as the coolant flows through it. Over time the additive will dissolve into the coolant and you're left with just a filter - in actual fact it's not much more than a coarse screen rather than a filter. 2. If you use the ELC/OAT type coolant you don't need the filter. This coolant will go 12,000 hours between changes so long as you add their liquid extender chemical additive at 6000 hours, or earlier if coolant analysis indicates the need for it. We just leave the empty spin-on "coolant filter" in place and have had no issues, but we never replace the filter after switching from SCA to ELC coolant. Most of our equipment fleet came filled with ELC when it was new, so we were looking for a Mobil ELC equivalent for refills and top-ups. What equipment was not filled with ELC such as our Cummins engines (QSX15, QSX19, & QSK60) we ran until the analysis started to indicate a deterioration in coolant condition, usually within the first 1000 hours or less. At that point we drained the original coolant, flushed with clean water, and refilled with ELC. Since then the coolant analysis in our Cummins engines is pretty much the same as all the other engines we have, i.e. damn good............. We have our coolant analysed to Level 2 every 500 operating hours and have seen no issues whatsoever with scaling or oxidation using Mobil 50/50 Premix ELC in engines previously equipped with coolant filters. When you pull a sample always make sure it's a clear bright red colour, any cloudiness could indicate suspended solids. On engines equipped with aluminium core radiators or engine oil coolers you may note an ammonia smell from the coolant soon after you make the change from SCA to ELC. This is normal, and it will disappear quite quickly. It has no effect whatsoever on coolant condition other than giving the maintenance crew heart failure the first time the rad cap gets pulled off ......!! It doesn't happen on all engines BTW. In my opinion SCA coolant is 20th Century technology and not compatible with today's engines. There are some older engines that might go better on it, but from your comments you're using pretty new engines (5 years old or less) and for them I would use ELC every time. When changing from SCA coolant to ELC make sure you flush well with CLEAN water.
I would not think any supplier is going to give me the ok to run coolant filters that are not the same brand as the coolant? the coolant is Nalco, Nalcool 05, pre mixed long life coolant, its supplied by the mobil distributor here and was recomended by their tech to suit our engines. I cant find much info online about *** and the info they emailed me is not good enough quality and I cant zoom in to read it. I will look into filter only options and in the mean time I will just by pass the filter to keep the system complete, that way until i get firm answers on all my questions I will be happy. I have been landed with extremely neglected equipment and a lack of trained staff to work on them, I need to make things as fool proof as possible, if I leave the filters on and the taps turned off someone will turn them on. thanks for all the replies
The Nalcool I have worked with in the past uses SCA technology which is not what you really require, and quite frankly it was sh1te. Apparently they have a new product which is an OAT-based ELC but I've never used it myself. Do you have a local Caterpillar Dealer ..? If so ask them to quote you to supply Cat ELC. That would solve all your problems. If you use CAT ELC so long as the coolant filter cartridges are empty of additive and you don't change them again there will be no problems.
I would have gone komatsu or cat product but to purchase from out Mobil supplier is way more simple, the coolant is already on the barge on the way here, I understand your concerns, it hopefully the product I am getting is better than what you have experienced prior. I specifically asked for a product that would suit our equipment an in particular our komatusu and cummins with aluminium radiators and that is what was recommended. It has to better than what has been getting put in, or not put in, previous. I just put my glasses on and was able to read the literature enough to get that it is a heavy duty, long life, hybrid organic, does not require sca at initial fill or for 12000hrs. That would outlast most of the machines I have. thanks again for the response.
Sounds like you are getting their new ELC/OAT product. As I said above I have no experience of this, but plenty of experience of similar products from other manufacturers. Ask them if they have something like an "Extender" (that's what Cat calls it) that you add to the coolant at approx 50% life to restore the chemical properties. Based on what you appear to be getting I would say to just leave the old coolant filters on there. If they have a bit of SCA checmical left in them it's not going to hurt the new coolant. Soon enough the SCA will dissolve out of them and they will just be empty cans.
I am a bit perplexed with this thread. I've never seen a Komatsu that didn't have shutoff valves on the coolant filters. Those valves allowed changing the filter without draining the system and it didn't hurt anything to just close off those valves and run the engine. Another issue you need to know of is that on the older machines the seal material was very sensitive to the levels of antifreeze and the additive packages. I've seen the injector coppers rot through because the coolant filters were changed way too much or not at all. I would also say that the last people I would contact about fluid compatibility would be the oil companies. The problem is that if there is a problem they will wash their hands of you in short order. I've been there and done that. If you are going to use their product, make them sign some guarantees up front. I ended up having the manufacturers tell me what they recommend and then I told the oil companies what I would use. Good Luck!
I now have a cat roller and grader, 4 komatsu, 4 older cummins gensets, plus all the other vehicles, now it would be great to have the genuine coolant for each brand. With my staff that would not work, they put degreaser in a 4WD brake system recently, I could go on for hrs. I work 4weeks on and 2 weeks off, what happens in break makes it hardly worth taking break. I have logistics nightmares trying to get stuff here. I totally agree that the product i am going to use is not the best. But its better than, no water, creek water, no coolant, or a mix of stuff. i have had another huge day so off to dinner cheers all
I have a lot of coolant filters in stock, I had a look at one, punched the hole out bigger in the center and flushed out the coolant compound. i now have a filter only and dont have to worry about changing the system. Waiting on a new radiator to come from Singapore.
Top banana .........!! There's always a way ..... Know what you mean though about working with the class of mechanic you're obviously working with @ the moment. I'm working with pretty similar ones here.
I went through this several years ago when Cat went away from SCA and introduced ELC. We left the coolant filters on and didn't change them, which was OK, but after a while the filter can would rust through from the outside. In the end, we removed the filter head and hoses completely. This also avoided confusion during servicing.
Removing the filter was my plan, but the D68 filter screws onto the block, not a remote head like PC300. I will still change the filters at 1000hrs to prevent rust failure.
Nige, you have provided a lot of good info in this thread and I'm curious what the difference is between new and older engines in regards to SCA and ELC. I have a 1979 CAT 955L, a 1979 Deere backhoe, and a 2001 Italian Ag tractor with a VM diesel in it. All have brass radiators and I would like to change out the coolant, hopfully with the same for all, because I don't know what the previous owners put in there.
No difference whatsoever between any generation of engine and being able to use ELC to replace SCA in the cooling system. ELC has no effect whatsover on copper/brass. I think I posted somewhere before (maybe earlier on this thread) that if you have an aluminium engine oil cooler core when you first change from SCA to ELC you will find an ammonia smell to the coolant, but this soon disappears and it has no effect whatsoever on coolant performance. Strangely enough the same thing does not happen with aluminium radiators, I have no idea why. Maybe it's that the temperature difference between engine oil & coolant is nowhere near as much as it is between coolant and ambient air flowing over a radiator. I have no proof of that however. When I get to work I'll post some photos taken when engines were being torn down of components like liners, water pump, etc, comparing SCA-based coolant versus those using ELC. I'll warn you they're not pretty ......... Knowing what coolants were in use with different customers I always reckoned I could walk through the shop and tell where an engine had come from based on the condition of the components when it was torn down.
OK, found the photos. These are from 2 identical engines owned by the same customer. Prior to using pre-mixed ELC they bought their own SCA/anti-freeze and mixed it themselves. One engine has 5300 hours on it and the engine failed due to cooling system problems caused by persistent overheating. The other engine has 10,100 hours on it and was removed for a planned overhaul. I think the photos speak for themselves ............ none of the parts has been "doctored" in any way. That's just the way they came out of the 2 engines concerned.
That's a pretty amazing comparison Nige. Are you saying the clean engine probably used to look like the rusty pics but the OAT coolant cleaned it up? OAT is OK to use in my older equipment?
No, not that at all. The "rusty" engine was run all its life on a mixture made up by the customer himself using concentrated anti-freeze, their local water, & SCA additives when necessary. It failed after 5300 hours with problems that were all basically related to the cooling system, overheating, etc. A cracked head, liner seals, and various other problems IIRC. The photos of the water pump and the liner are just how they were when the engine was disassembled. After a shed-load of failures like the one above, the customer was persuaded to switch from his "home-brewed" anti-freeze/water/SCA concotion to premixed ELC. The second pair of photos are of the first engine that was run on ELC premix from Day 1 after the engine being rebuilt plus a full cooling system & radiator overhaul of course. This 2nd engine reached 10,100 hours at which time it was pulled for overhaul. It needs stressing that the 2nd engine did not fail like the first one did, and it ran to an amount of hours that would be regarded as reasonable for the machine in which it was installed, a 988F Series II Wheel Loader. Honestly the 2nd engine could have probably run a lot longer but everybody was getting twitchy that it had not failed when it got to 10,000 hours because they had never had engines, even new ones, run that long before. Therefore it was pulled so that it could be examined internally. After seeing the state of this engine subsequent rebuilt engines were run to 12,000 hours if I remember rightly. OAT-based coolant is fine to run on older engines in my experience. Although if you have experienced any type of cooling system problems a full overhaul of the radiator, water pump & thermostats is strongly recomended when switching coolants.
Thanks!