Hello, I have a 2007 JD CT322 that stutters and stumbles for anywhere from probably 10 to 45+ seconds after startup before it smoothes out and runs good when it has sat for several days. It seems to be getting progressively worse, seems like it is starving for fuel, acts similar when the fuel filter is getting plugged up. I have done alot of reading and I keep running across talk of a check valve in the fuel return line on the back of the engine that can go bad and cause a similar issue. I would like to replace this check valve and see if it fixes my problem, but I cannot seem to make sense of JD's online parts diagrams and figure out what part I need. Does anybody know the JD part # of this mysterious check valve??? Help appreciated. Thanks!
So stopped at my local JD equipment dealer this morning and they are not aware of a fitting with a check valve in the return line on the 322's. The did show me a t style fitting with a check valve that is in the return system of some other model JD skidsteers, but not the 322. Could all the talk I have read about this check valve be from guys familiar with other models and just assuming it's on the 322 as well? Can anybody help clear this up for me. In the meanwhile, my dealer recommended replacing the fuel water separator/hand prime unit, thinking that the seals may have gone bad in it or got some crap stuck under the diaphragm causing it to bleed off pressure and lose its prime. I'll get that changed in the next day for 2 when I can and see what happens but I'd really like to clear up this supposed check valve fitting that I have read about on this forum and several others as well. Any help appreciated.
I think yours is a hi pressure unit.. the "pumps/injectors" are under the valve cover?? What I think is, your getting confused over the mechanical injection pumps, that sit outside the engine & have a check ball return fitting, that sits ontop of the injection pump.. & it gets clogged w/ debris, rust, dirt & flex ring material.. Any chance taking a pic of whatcha got & posting it or sending it to a member who knows how to post it here?? {not me,lol} Your dealer might be right {prob. not. lol} Those lift pumps suck & are a real weak spot.. I've replace about 50 under warranty when they 1st came out.. {hi press. systems}
The check valve is in the hose barb coming off the back of the head .If you take it off and look inside it you will see the spring with check ball .I had a couple go bad on Sullair compressor where it would not hold pressure cause unit not to start .If you vise grip off the line and hand primer till it is had it will fire off .
Ok so I replaced the final fuel water filter/hand priming assembly housing, opened the bleeder, pumped it until I got good fuel out of the bleeder, closed the bleeder and gave it a few extra pumps. Priming pump firmed up to the point you couldn't really pump more without really forcing it (the old unit never firmed up, you could pump till you were blue in the face and it wouldn't form up). Jumped in the cab and fired it off, it stumbled for about 2 seconds if that and then purred like a kitten. That's the best it has cold started since I got it this last spring. I'm going to let it sit till Thursday and fire it up again and see how it does ,but if tonight is an indicator hopefully my fuel woes are cured. I'll update next startup.
Oh and by the way, it was still the factory housing with 2700hrs and 11 years on it as it was painted yellow and the new one was bare black plastic.
Awesome to hear you got it running .
Sometime you will get the hand primer pump check valve not to seal and and dirt may be in the hole passage. Also I have see one with a crack in it.
Do you think it's worth trying to take apart and clean for a backup?
Wouldn't hurt .Take apart ,blow out with compressed air .Cheaper than buying one. If you can get me the engine serial number .I can get you the part number of the fuel fitting if you need it
Ok as soon as I asked that, curiosity got the best of me. Dug it out of the garbage and took the top off. Not much to them really. Pulled the diaphragms out and wiped everything down good, the little one did have some grime on it, did look like there was maybe some really small grit in it. Put it back together. I'll hang on to it and hopefully never need another one. Helpful hint fellas, dont point the outlet side toward you, plug it off with your finger, pump the crap out of it to see if it makes pressure and then remove your finger. Because even though you think you dumped all the fuel out of the filter, there's still alot of fuel in it that didn't come out!! Dont ask me how I know. I gotta go take a shower now.
I hear you on that one .
Appreciate it, next time I have it opened up I'll see if I can find it. I have the unit s/n, but not the engine #
That's the 'TRICKY" thing about supply/lift pumps.. the hand primer CAN work when manually pumping it.. but the pump wont pump.. so it can fool ya.. I tell people all the time, "just because the HP works, doesn't mean the pumps pumping".. Glad u found the problem.. because the other alternative was VERY expensive.. {pumps}
I think the hand pump was the culprit I let it run for about 20 minutes last night varying rpms, idle to WOT, etc. Never stumbled, so I hope that was the problem anyways. While it was running I tried to push the hand pump in and it was hard as a rock, the old one you could still push in when it was running so i assume it is now maintaining better supply pressure. Fingers crossed.
Ok, well jury is still out. Went out and fired it up tonight. Ran like crap acted like it was starving for fuel again for about 10 seconds or so, I shut it off got out and pushed the hand prime about a dozen times. You could hear a bubbling sound as I was priming so it is obviously bleeding of pressure somewhere and getting air in the system. After hand priming it ran fine on re-start, ran for about another 10 to 15 minutes ran fine. Tool-king, where is the engine s/n tag? I looked around the engine compartment and all I seen was a JD replacement engine sticker on the valve cover. Apparently it has had the engine replaced, replacement was built 08/2010.
Hey Tool-king, I've been studying the parts diagrams again. I think I found the fitting you are referring to. Is #4 in these pics what you are referring to?
We had a 4024 that became almost impossible to start and it was that check valve. Try folding the hose over and see if it starts better. Cheap enough to replace.
Yes that is the fitting you need .I usually needle nose vise grip the off and pump it up and see if it starts . You take fitting out and install standard 1/4 pipe to 1/4 / 5/16 hose barb and prime fuel system into a clear jug and see if you get any dirt that may stuck in there to pop out. Look at fitting when you take it out you might see the dirt .To access the fitting you will need to raise the cab for easy access .If any questions call me at 1-908-305-8457 on my cell. thanks Ed
Thanks Ed! I'll report back when I get time to mess with it some more, in the middle of sheet rocking the ceiling in my garage right now so I can get some insulation blown in before winter so may be a week or so. Thanks again!
Sounds good Engine serial number will to the right of that fiting on a black white metal riveted tag .It will have the model and serial number on it . If I get chance to get picture of one I will send it to so you can see were it located .
Ok, so after finding the part # for the return line check valve myself since my Deere dealer couldn't find it and thought it didn't have one, I have replaced the said check valve that my unit supposedly didn't have. While I had it out, I put in a regular barbed fitting, connected another chunk of fuel line to it going to a clear container, and operated the hand prime until I had pumped out about a quart of fuel, per tool-king (Ed) recomendation. It did appear there maybe could have been some junk in the fuel rail that could have been getting stuck in the old check valve. Put it back together a d hand primed about 5 or 6 pumps and it firmed up solid, unit fired right up. I started it before working on it so I could raise the boom up to raise the cab, and prior to starting I pumped the hand primer about 20 times and it never got firm, which leads me to believe the check valve was hanging open at least partially, and it ran like crap as usual at startup. I'll fire it up again Friday after it sets for 2 days and will report back again. For anyone that doesn't know tool-king (Ed), he is a first class guy and more than willing to share his knowledge to help a guy out. I am pretty mechanically inclined, but outside of regular maintenance on my Cummins (oil changes, fuel filters, etc), I have very little experience with diesel engines. I spoke with Ed several times today via phone calls and texts, great guy and greatly appreciated. I'll let you all know how it goes Friday, hopefully this finally puts my startup woes to bed.
I have same issue going on with my 322 it only runs rough for a few seconds and needs to sit for 4-5 days so I have not messed with it much but I'm interested to hear if this shows any improvement. Thanks for all the info!
Nathan You very welcome any time .Glad was able to help you out with you machine issues and point you in the right direction to look .
How many hours on it ? Probably same thing going with it .Have you also looked at the hand primer check valve in the hand primer .They can get debris packed in there and will cause a run rough issues .Take hand prime plastic retaining nut off . Go slow it is spring loaded a little .Take off the diaphragm .Take pair of pliers and pull the check valve out of the fuel filter housing and inspect .Also take the rubber diaphragm and turn it inside out with you fingers and thumb looking for cracks in rubber .If you find then replace with hand primer diaphragm kit from John Deere .
Ok, well I think I got a good sign tonight. When I got home from work I popped the engine cover and pushed on the hand primer pump and it was still good and firm. So at this point, it appears to still be holding pressure. I did not start it yet, I want to let it sit one more day and see what happens. I'll let you know how it goes tomorrow night.
Well I think it's fixed, popped the engine cover and the primer pump was still hard as a rock so definitely holding pressure now. It's only about 44 degrees right now compared to 70+ a few days ago so it wasn't the smoothest starting, ran rough but you could tell it was a cold rough whereas before you could tell it was fuel starvation. It was a smooth rough before if that makes sense, acted like it had a dead hole, whereas today was definitely cold diesel rough. My next job is to get an outlet wired in over on the side of the house where I park it before winter so I can plug it in as it is definitely a cold blooded bigger. Not sure how to tell if the glow plugs are actually working?
Nice job .Glad it worked out for
it has just short of 700 hours I will check into that if it becomes an issue for sure! thanks!
I think the check valve definitely helped, every time I have checked the hand prime pump since changing the check valve, it is good and firm with pressure whereas before it was always soft like a sponge. Temperatures have dropped here dramatically and I haven't started plugging it in yet, it is definitely hard starting when cold. But I think it will definitely start better now when warm than it was doing before replacing the check valve. I may not find out until next spring now though haha.
Ok, I have confirmed the fuel issue is fixed with the check valve replacement. Also confirmed my block heater works. Its 50 degrees here today, and been mid 30's overnight. Plugged it in for about 2 hours this morning, got in it and the water temp was up to 121 degrees, it fired right up only stumbled for about 1-2 seconds, I'm sure due to air temp, and smoothed right out and ran great.
Awesome to hear you got it figured out .
Glad to hear it fixed it! While on the topic does anyone know why these seem to somewhat rev up a little higher than idle for a second when they start? they all seem to do it. I wouldn't think that helps the cold starting!
It has a "cold start" device that pulls it to excess fuel for ease of starting.. Once it started its no longer in play.
I did read in my owner's manual that it states to put it at 1/3 throttle when you start it?? This seemed to make it start worse the times I tried it. I typically start it at idle and then after it smoothes out for a few seconds I'll bump the rpm up just a little bit.
Nate, TRY IT now that its fixed.. what was happening before was, you were asking it for more fuel & it wasn't there because of the bad check valves.. the fuel was draining back..and u were pumping air... NOW that you've got constant fuel pressure, it should start like the book says.. Bump up the throttle & turn the key. Let us know..
I'll give it a try next time I go to start it and see how it does now.
Ok, started last night to move it out of my parking area to free up a parking spot for today. It was about 60 degrees, was not plugged in, gave it a little throttle at start, not sure if it liked the extra fuel. Lots of smoke, and pretty rough start, took probably 5 seconds or so to smooth out. Maybe that's the way it should be but seemed better to start at idle then bump the rpm up a touch after. I'm not really accustomed to the old school low pressure mechanical injection diesels though, I'm more used to the newer high pressure common rail stuff that start smoothly almost any time.
Ok started again tonight about 38 degrees out, was plugged in, water temp was 104, tried the throttle thing again not quite 1/3 throttle but gave it a little extra. Started and ran great, a little black smoke then about 2 quick little stumbles and a little blue smoke and then run great. The check valve definitely solved its biggest starting woes, now I just have to get used to its temperature quirks, its definately a cold blooded pig if it's not plugged in.
A little theory on the cold start advance for that engine: The cold start advance on the JD Series 250 engine is controlled by oil pressure in the hydraulic roller cam followers, or lifters, for the unit pumps. During cold starting, engine oil is sent by the cold advance thermostat to the cold advance piston in the cam follower via the cold advance oil gallery. The oil pressure lifts the piston 1.5 mm, thus increasing the overall travel length, or stroke, of the unit pump plunger. This advances the pump timing. The increase in stroke of the plunger causes the cam to raise the plunger sooner. This change results in the injection timing to be advanced approximately ten degrees. The oil pressure needed to provide full cold start advance is about 35 psi. A ball check at the base of the piston prevents pumping forces from collapsing the advance. The cold start advance thermostat begins to block the oil flow when oil temperatures reach approximately 80°C (176°F). When the oil supply port to the roller cam followers is fully blocked, residual oil in the piston cup bleeds out through a drain orifice located in the cup end of the follower. At approximately 15 psi oil pressure, the cold start advance is fully disabled. The follower piston returns to the lower position, returning timing advance to the optimum performance level for an engine at normal operating temperatures. Normally when there is a cold start issue I check the advance oil pressure to make sure it is funtioning properly (after checking the fuel return check valve first which you did of course). And yes, those engines will smoke and miss at start up when cold. That is quite common. Good job Kxnate!
I guess if it doesn't like the throttle at start-up.. don't give it throttle.. as long as it starts, who gives a crap, right?? & yes, GOOD JOB figuring it out.. you saved yourself A BUNCH of money & down time, sitting in the dealers parking lot.. Seeing this was a "cold start" problem.. it woulda sat there for weeks if not months.. Swap a part, get it started, wait till the next day to see if it starts.. no start.. swap another part, get it started, wait till the next day to see if it starts.. no start.. swap a part.. on & on.. All the while, that clock was ticking -off, adding 100.00 bills onto your invoice.. Congrats..
Very interesting, thanks for the info. I always wondered why the engine made a very distinct audible change at a certain point when warming up. I always assumed it must have had something to do with injection timing advance, but never knew for sure. I am guessing what you have just described is exactly what I am hearing.
Yep my thoughts exactly, I just read that in the manual and wanted to try it out and see what it did. I imagine JD has a reason for telling you to do that, and I tend to try to do things by the book, especially with expensive pieces of equipment. But yes, I probably won't do it anymore. The check valve wasn't just a cold issue actually, it had been doing it all summer long, it just kept getting worse as it was getting cooler, but I totally understand what you are getting at with the dealer. I was struggling to verify for a while if the check valve cured it because the temperatures plummeted the day I changed it, and I was not accustomed to how hard that thing is cold starting as I just purchased it this spring, so I had to start plugging it in to verify the check valve really was the cure. I like to try to fix as many things as I can myself before I resort to the stealership, so I appreciate your pointers as well as everyone else's. I auto mechanic'd for a few dealers for a couple years out ofhigh school, so I understand them and try to avoid them like the plague haha. Thanks again everyone!!
Should the cold start advance still activate when starting after engine is already warm? they seem to from any of this series engine i've seen but you wouldn't think it should! good information though thanks
No, the engine will not be advanced unless the oil temperature drops below 176 degrees. Of course sitting through a lunch break could bring the temp down enough for it to activate, but would shut off fairly rapidly since the oil will still be pretty warm at start up. The engine oil thermostat for those engines do fail more frequently than many tech's realize. That is why I test the advance galley oil pressure for cold start complaints.
Okay good information mine seems to ldle up for just a split second every time I start regardless of temp or run time. I should look into it I guess
The engine "idling up" at start up is from the fuel rack being at full fuel at start up and then when the engine speed is fast enough to throw the governor weights out it comes back to idle. That is normal on all 4024/5030 JD engines. That has nothing to do with the "cold start advance" which advances the timing of the engine only.
Correction: That statement above applies to"pre-electronic" engines.
kxnate: what did u find out?; did u get your machine running? i am having the same issues. thanks