I have a new to me 2003 Cummins N14 STC a non ECM hydroblast pump 475 HP. Unit has been sitting a few years, the throttle cable appears to be removed and the linkage on the PT pump has maybe 20 degrees movement. It doesn't feel like it's moving anything just slop. I have not tried to start the engine the motor turns over using big wrench on alternator bolt freely seems to have good compression. The tag on PT pump matches engine tag 1921. So thought of removing the 4 bolts that hold the 301523 part and trying to clean it up and maybe free up the pump levers. I also checked the shut off solenoid the wire broken off applied 12V Dc with power probe no click so I assume that's gummed jammed up as well. Wanted to get advice if I should partially tear down the pump and try and free it up before I start taking parts off.
Here is the throttle lever that doesn't have much movement at all. I have a similar older pump that has a 855 Big Cam has the throttle cable and same linkage on pump with full movement. So obvious difference here. Obviously the motor would not start or may rev instantly to 3000 rpm with current situation here.
To my knowledge, this is your throttle shaft. White arrow. That lever up there, I think is manual shut-down. I'm gonna have to dig up some old books.
Cutaway diagram and picture of a typical truck throttle set up. Electric switch on throttle is for jakes.
This is how they set up these hydroblasting pumps here is a pic of the 855 engine (RED) with throttle cable connected to same lever. You can see on pic of this pump the fastener bolt for the cable and the hole where cable mounts. I see what you are saying but this is different to control the engine rpm manually via cable to change pump pressure and gpm
That injection pump is for the on road Celect Plus and Celect that use Can Bus via the ECM to control the throttle. This is the STC N14 used on Ag Equipment etc that has a manual throttle control no ECM
What I am wondering is if I take the 4 fasteners that hold this part with the throttle lever on and remove it, try and clean up the gunk or see what's jammed broken does this mess up the calibration ? There was a wire seal tag on the bottom bolt I started removing the fasteners but not all to take this off I just don't want to create more problems if doing so would require calibration and I need to take it to a injection pump shop anyway.
Ok I was wrong that looks like a manual throttle control STC N14. I don't know why they set it up this way on these pumps but here you can see the same linkage with cable on a Big Cam 855. This is another pump I have though this motor in red was locked up due to rusted exhaust letting water in cylinders bought at auction. But for reference. Where the throttle arm is attached on the pic you posted neither of my PT pumps allow any movement of that shaft, it's locked up on both.
There should be a solid housing with 4 screws and a single ³/¹⁶ stud, that's the fuel s/o solenoid. They only click if there's no fuel. It's really faint. With on-road engines, there would be a manual thumbscrew on the opposite side. If it's there, it will be on the block side by the AFC diaphragm behind the tach drive adapter. You might get a flat blade screwdriver in there. Turn the screw til it stops gently. That will give you manual fuel on. At the fuel inlet fitting, there may be a filter screen. Additionally check the pulse damper, if that plate is cracked, you'll have a hard time pulling prime. Since that was an industrial application, it may very well be a 24v system. Check starter and alternator tags for verification.
Here is a pic of the shut off screw on back of solenoid. It doesn't click or move much either. I will verify on the 24v system. The main problem now is no movement with the throttle lever. Well it moves a bit but feels like slop in the linkage.
Turn that in till she stops. I would refrain from takin stuff off or pulling stuff apart. That's like a $2k pump. You never know where the geezus part is and where it's gonna jump to or if it's gonna break.
Ok it's not really moving feels like it's slipping. Yeah I know it's a rare pump Cummins wants $2900 to rebuild it only option. I have found a few rebuilders that will overhaul it for $900 but if it's simply gummed up from old fuel that I can free up easily taking that throttle part off etc I'd rather give it a shot first. Lol Also that back lower bolt holding this pump on looks real fun to get off. The paint on this pump and N14 was the trend of the time that thick miserable epoxy paint they sprayed everywhere, sensors and fasteners makes removing parts lots of fun.
So your "throttle cable" is in the same area as the normal electrical fuel shut off solenoid is located on a truck version. In this industrial motor, I think what they are doing is locking the standard throttle control, and using a adjustable plunger controlled by your cable, controlling the fuel after the gov. and throttle shaft. There's a whole series on youtube that truck shop posted up on the pt cummins injector pump and how it works. It really helped me understand what's going on. Its not going to show your "industrial" set up, but if you watch them all, you'll get a idea. I'm going to guess by the external rust, this thing has been sitting a while, and the last plunger that they are using to neck down the injector fuel by your cable, is stuck shut. Here's the first video in the series, the other ones are by the same poster, but concentrate on the one that shows the "fuel shut off solenoid" and I think your cable is doing a similar thing - i.e. the pump is locked at full throttle and full pressure pushed all the way to your control, rather than in the trucks where they use variable speed on the lower shaft.
Well, I shared my concerns. Good luck to you. Found one on flea bay for 1650 if it fits your CPL
Ok sure I'll check them out. I hope it's not rusted inside just gummed up old fuel. Lol yeah this linkage part is right next to the shut off solenoid circled
Yeah thanks have seen a few on eBay but since this is a rare engine 475 hp the PT pump numbers calibration don't match. So a pump off eBay would need to be recalibrated to my engine. Might as well try and rebuild mine would be cheaper than buying another unless it's trashed inside.
I'll hold off talk to some more injection pump rebuilders tomorrow before I start taking parts off let everyone know here what they say. I appreciate the advice
That PT pump has two governors, one is governed rpm {internal} the other is the load governor on top of pump with the throttle lever. The fact that engine has set awhile and the high possibility it could have had bio fuel run in it plus any moisture would collect in bottom of pump. I would have the pump checked. The throttle does not operate off the lower fuel shaft.
No I would not take it apart. Would not worry about the shaft on the side trucks use. That works with the variable speed governor. The other one is for the constant speed governor. Forward is slow and rearward is fast. It does not require much movement. As long as power can be cut off to the fuel solenoid the engine should shut off. A 2 X 8 X 3 is always a good safety device. If it does not want to stop a board over the turbo inlet will get it done. N14 475 is odd.
Ok thanks. If I take this throttle control off 4 fasteners do you think I can free it up from there ? Would taking that off cleaning it up cause an issue with calibration?
Ok thanks. The movement of the lever on the N14 is very different feels like play slight movement maybe and inch from the 855 PT which has a lot of range and you can feel resistance. I don't know the true story behind this pump bought from an industrial company who claimed they didn't use it much and it sat. Being is was an expensive pump back in the day makes me wonder if that's the case maybe it sat for a while and the pump control seized up and it's sat since a maybe 4 years or more. They took the fuel lines off fuel tank the fuel filters etc still connected nothing open direct to pump. They said they were gonna sandblast the unit but it didn't happen. So like you said I should just maybe rig up a fuel supply from a 5 gallon tank try and start the machine see what happens.
Ok I could take it off make sure it spins freely etc. The injection pump rebuilder here Vegas very expensive he will want to just tear it down and rebuild it $900 as long as it's rebuildable. Was trying to avoid that expense if I could free it up by cleaning it out etc. But like others have said not a good idea especially since this is a rare one.
Here are the tags. PT pump matches engine plate 1921 calibration whatever that is. Verified with Cummins N14 475 HP. The whole unit is rare on the pump side NLB extreme prices for crankshaft bearings on the Union power end $21,000 a set 6 each . I'll make them out if bronze first at a machine shop. it's a 20,000 psi unit 35 gpm. i probably overpaid for this unit didn't inspect in person first but everything is well made once sorted and cleaned up repainted will last easy 10 years.
It's not a rare PT pump, but it is a odd CPL. When it comes to Cummins industrial engines Cummins built all kinds of odd high horse power engines. The variable speed governor on a PT pump is very common for stationary applications. Old fuel setting in any injection pump is not good, $900.00 is for a complete rebuild, clean and reseal is normally $550.00. A friend rebuilds injection pumps and most PT pumps I've seen cross his bench are pretty ugly inside if it has set for a period of time. That pump is close to 20 years old. It's not a tricky pump to rebuild/reseal.
Ok thanks. Does your friend that rebuilds these have a shop or contact ?
contact this member on here thepumpguysc he's helped many on here.
I emailed him yesterday he doesn't rebuild PT pumps he said.
This hydro blast unit was made by NLB and first year production of this particular model and their highest HP output to date. In 2004 NLB went to the C12 Cat which had less HP 425 but was controlled J1939 Can Bus with ECM and had a electronic Controls Incorporated controller. This unit used a Cummins controller typical for Gen Sets with safety shutdowns and also additional sensors for the high pressure pump monitoring such as low water pressure and low crank case pump oil. All it could do when triggered I assume is activate the solenoid shut off. the controller box is rough box rusted which I will replace I have seen the cards available on eBay could have issues with board as well but that's easy to diagnose no ECM simple shut off to pump solenoid. This unit has turned into a bit of a project here obviously. But knowing the Cat technology at the time vs Cummins N14 this motor is the true long hour 1,000,000 mile motor. Cat used the same type of High Pressure oil injector control used on the infamous 6.0 powerstroke at the time. The ECMs in the Cat have voltage jumpers that jump the voltage up to 240 to control the injectors have had the ECMs fail on 3126 powered sweepers I ran.
Have/or contact Premco about the pump. My friend is retired and only does local work.
I can remember when a COMPLETE PT pump o/h was $250.00.!!! There’s some reputable shops still around.. Spencer Diesel & Oregon, to name a few.. You’ll definitely have to send it to them.. Look up their # and ask to talk to the fuel shop.. then ask what the avg. PT pump o/h goes for.. Good luck
I respect Truck Shop but I would prelube the oil system. Spin the turbo by hand and fire it up. You will likely end up having the pump resealed anyway. Old PT pump seals do not like this new fuel. Oil lines to injectors are low pressure for step timing control. Injector plungers run off the camshaft. Not much like a 6.0. Pic of a video is best I can do. That is a 1921 - 475 just fired up.
Well talked to Interstate Fuel Injection Service in Indiana had a good reference here. He said that throttle lever doesn't have much movement and I could take the 4 bolts off their is a spring inside clean it up. Quoted me $595 for a rebuild in case I need it seemed like a good shop I'll use him if needed. But in the meantime was using a wire brush attachment to my grinder to clean up some of the rusty spots on motor in particular the coolant pipes for each tube and bam sprung a leak coolant. These look like older tubes before they used stainless so rusted up and thin. Would have leaked anyway running the motor obviously so I gotta take rockers off and all the associated parts. I'll start another thread when I get there bought the new coolant tubes and O rings from Cummins today. This is turning into a big project never fails and I haven't even started the motor yet. Lol Its also a lesson on talking care of equipment properly for storage, this unit was in GA left to sit out in the elements with twigs and other junk holding moisture creating issues like this. This wasn't a inexpensive unit back then and the equivalent now new is very expensive. I don't get the neglect but i will deal with it. Once everything is sorted will be a reliable unit the pumps are made refinery grade to run 30 years. Now newer units are all ECM controlled and I don't think they are more reliable but less more parts, magnetic sensors, wiring connections etc to cause problems.
Exact same spec as mine.
Yes you have to do that but I would still get it running first. It would be worse to take apart, replace those sleeves and have to take it back apart for some other reason.
Ok I see, I can probably put some water weld epoxy stick on that leaky sleeve to run it.
This one runs on an Ag machine. If you look past the harmonic balancer you can see the old one with the rod through the block. Company that made the machine said they cut them back to 1900 working RPM. Still gets the job done on these machines and the blocks last longer. This one would no load at 2500 RPM.
For a simple check of moisture, remove the rocker covers and take a look. Engines like those even if covered can sweat. I've seen plenty that have set out in the elements for a period of time that the rockers, heads and so on have a coating of rust inside.
Yeah good idea need to take a peak inside valve covers. I'll remove one tomorrow morning. Oil looked fresh didn't really realize the potential environmental problems till this sleeve sprung it's leak. This unit has 1600 hrs total so low.
Loosen the oil drain plug. Drain any water or coolant off the bottom first.
1900 RPM from motor is where these hydroblast pumps are designed to run. The Company NLB that made this pump NLB sold out by Forest Shook who started it in the 70s in Michigan to Interpump in Italy around 2012 or so all the engineers quit and they now use Italian power ends Vs the Union USA made refinery power end on this machine. They are not refinery grade power ends the heart of the pump and having reliability issues I have heard. NLB would use a Union power end back when Shook owned them and make their own Fluid ends using high tech sophisticated metal hardening processes to get to the high pressures and loads the past 20 years. It's also crazy the price increases on all new equipment these pumps cost more than houses new lol. But NLBs business model being Italian owned is forced obsolescence crazy prices on pump parts for this unit like $21,000 for 6 crankshaft main rod bearings.
So some surface rust on valve rockers but easily rubs off with my mix of diesel and used ATF4. The motor lift plate bent back and in the way of last front valve cover bolt. Gotta take that off. Must have been in big hurry re installing engine at one point. Shout out to the guy that thought painting the engines with 2 part thick epoxy paint was a great idea back in the day, makes it fun removing fasteners, they obviously didn't think or care about ease of service. You can tell most parts untouched on this motor as its original sensors, wiring, fuel lines with this thick globby paint
Motor lift plate. Valves that were moveable had a decent amount of play need adjusting
My N14 sat for at least 10 years and the front most rocket was rusted worse than yours but other than that it was fine. I never cleaned it off maybe I should pull the cover and clean it. I pulled injectors and put 15-40 in the pistons, reinstalled the rockers without injectors and let it sit about a month (taking my time). My accessories were pretty stuck. It took way more than it should but I bar'd the engine over and rotated a few times. Then I put back the injectors and did a overhead. Was quite smokey when I started it. I had to replace the alternator and the air compressor. Engine breakdowns are more expensive then parts for me so I didn't even try to fix those accessories. I replaced all the belts, they are cheap too.
Yeah rust came off easy was just surface. I gotta take the rockers apart anyway to remove the rocker boxes and replace the rusted out coolant tubes so will hit them with my wire brush on bench grinder to get them spotless. I bought another hydroblast pump 5 years ago at auction that's a 350 HP had a Cummins 855 the exhaust was rusted so water got into cylinders was totally locked up which I didn't know before buying. I took injectors out filled cylinders with marvel mystery oil and after maybe 2 months gently trying to turn over motor it started turning and spins freely now. Have not tried to start it and it's sat since too many other priorities and it probably needs new rings sleeves. But have it for the hydroblasting pump in case I need it for parts etc