Getting around to working on the Hydraulic cylinders on my 580b. I have at least two that need to be repacked. From what i found on the web it says that the rod could be bent? But i am thinking that the seals are just old and that is why they are leaking. I found a gland nut tool for $100, and the seals look to be about $50 or so from Case. I also spoke to a Hydraulic shop that will replace the seals for $200 a cylinder. My debate is should i buy the tool and try to replace the seals myself or should i just drop off the cylinders and let the shop do it? How hard is it to replace seals?
In our area, 200$ a cylinder seems like a reasonable price for the work. The cylinders i have removed from a 580 were always easy to access. You can save money by doing it yourself, but there can be a wealth of labor required in rebuilding some cylinders. I've seen cylinders that size seized up to where the nut on the housing required heating all around and a 48" pipe wrench attached to a hoist to break loose. It really depends on the tooling you have availiable as to whether its economical. The seals are the easy part as you just have to be delicate with replacing them. You can dissassemble the cylinders leaving the can attached to the machine using it as mount, but you'll need air and good strong impact to completely dissassemble. Really, the answer lies in what is worth more to you and your business. If your concerned about downtime, or tooling set up, 200$ is pretty cheap for a guarantee. If money is your primary concern, and you have the tooling, then it might be better to attempt yourself. Personally, i would take them to the hydraulic shop.
Which cylinders are they? The outriggers are the worst I think. If you can get the gland to unscrew, I think that's half the battle, the piston retaining bolt can be hard to get off too. The loader cylinders are easy to do. You can check your rod with a straightedge and get a pretty good idea without taking it apart. Phil
It the boom and dipper cylinders that need to be fixed. It is on the list of things to do. I ordered the gland nut wrench to take them apart. I am going to try to fix it myself. Are the gland nuts left or right hand thread?
Glands have a right hand thread. Phil
um i'd have the hyd shop do it
If time is a factor take it to the hydraulic shop and I'm betting you will end up there anyway. Cylinders usally leak for some reason and seldom from normal wear. Most of the time it is bent rods, scoring, cracks etc. Any repairs to a cylinder usally takes re-chroming or rod replacement, out of round barrels, usally some type of machining. I'm rebuilding the hydraulic motor circle cylinders on a 1970 Austin Western motor grader. Super 300. The seals are no longer available. The rods are sealed with a 3/8th" cross section "o" ring that we could not locate with numerous call all over the USA. Best they could do is build a jig to make the "o" rings for $1000 bucks. My decision was to take the cylinders to a machine shop and we designed a new packing system that fits into the old system using new modern available "v" packings. It is a beautiful repair job but not cheap. I have some pictures but I'm not good enough at this computer to send them. Last comment is my sick feeling of what is happening to our used salvage parts now that scrap iron has reached over $250 a dollars a ton. I'm afraid the supply will be disappearing and making the opportunity to keep some of these old dinosaurs working...impossible Diggerodell
cylinders Tresslers , check your private mail please. melben
Diggerodell, first, welcome to Heavy Equipment Forums. Second, have you seen Dwan Hall's Austin Western 300 project here? I'm sure he'd be happy to compare notes with you.
I've rebuilt the cylinders on my Case 1550 and my New Holland 555E, including the dipper cylinder. They are heavy, but not very dificult to work on. You will need a spanner wrench to take them apart and a big impact to get the piston off. I have come across loctite on both, and only a torch to melt off the loctite can get them loose. The dealer will sell you a kit, and depending on the cylinder, model and current mood of Case, you can end up with all sorts of junk in the rebuild kit. One kit is good for a very large variety of models, so you pay for all that extra stuff. After paying $50 and more for a kit more times then I care to figure out, I found out about a local repair shop. He'll do it for a fair price, but he'll also sell me just the parts that I need. Now I'm spending $10 to $20 in seals for a rebuild!!! In about 30 cylinders, I've never seen or had a bent rod. It's always the seal that slides over the cylinder that wears out and lets hydraulic oil leak out. I've had one cylinder that I just couldn't get apart and paid New Holland to do it. They said it was red loctite, and they had to burn it off. I had another cylinder that took me two days to get apart. I could turn it with my spanner wrench just a small amount with all my strenght and weight. It was mid summer, 100 degrees out and very high humidity. I worked on it off and on for two days and hated every second of it. Most of the time, they are very easy and a ten dollar seal is all you need. Eddie
EddieWalker, Hey it looks like you are getting success with your repair jobs and that is the secret. When they come back then everyone loses. I have attached a photo of the packing repair on the Super 300 Austin Western circle reversing motor. No magic here except a little machining to convert the cylinder over to receive the new modern parts that are readily available. Notice the old "O" ring seal and felt wiper. The hydraulic engineer said the 5 "V" packings and the two back-up packings would be good for 2000# PSI operating pressure. Two additional will make it good for about 3000#. Keep them in the dirt! Diggerodell
Nice picture Diggerodell. Did you just tighten the nut a little to preload the packing? It's got to be more forgiving than the 'nylon type' of seal used in Case cylinders. Phil
Phil, I may have confused everone with this repair. The photo is of the redesigned machine work on the cylinder cap. The original seal is shown near the bottom of the photo consisted of that fat "O" ring and you can just see the groove down in the end cap where that was located. That is not used now! The big recessed area was cut deeper to recieve the new gland that holds the packings and compression nut. The teflon wiper seal drives into that assembly. The gland was fitted with an "O" ring around the outside to seal the perimeter of the assembly and the complete gland is retained with a snap ring using the original groove. The original felt wiper ring shown was much thicker, covered with a steel washer of the same size( not shown) and held in by a snap ring. We reused that snap ring groove to hold the gland in place. This cylinder is now in operation and working great. Note! tighten the threaded packing nut just enough to keep from leaking and lock it in place with the tiny set screw. It is just like any packing seal, don't over tighten. I hope this might spur someone's imagination to get themselves out of a tough repair someday. Diggerodell
Picture is worth a thousand words . I always admire someone willing to try a modification like that. Phil
Bent rod is unusual, unless an eye gets siezed or the cylinder is interfered with in it's stroke. You shouldn't have a problem once the gland is removed. Very large cylinders ore hard because of the torque on the nut that holds the piston on the rod. I just got done with one that reqired @4000 Ft/Lb to loosen, had to have the dealer use his hydraulic wrench to take off. Early cylinders with removeable yokes (threaded rod) aren't a problem. These are low pressure, The gland can be removed of the end of the rod. High pressure cylinders have a welded eye on the rod. These are tough because of the torque mentioned and the various methods of locking the piston nut to the shaft.
Don't know if you have gotten the seals fixed yet, but We have a large number of quarry operations near us, and with that, repair/hydraulic shops. It is worth the money to have them fix them, as they do it for a living. Typically if they do hydraulics on big mining equipment, a cylinder for a loader or backhoe is small potatoes to them, so they won't charge an arm and a leg. Look around your area for places like this. Cheers, John
hello i'm pretty new to working on cylinders and i was wondering if you guys could tell me how much torque needs to be applied to piston retaining bolt im working on various cylinders on a 580L thanks in advance
200 bucks is a good deal. The rebuild kit for a 580 super E cylinder alone is around 60 bucks. I've done about 10 cylinders on different machines and it is messy and sometimes extremely difficult to get em apart. Especially the gland bolt.
Sorry
torques Gland nut torque-3-1/2" 350 ft. Lbs/8 drops loctite/packing nut 200 ft. Lbs./4 drops loctite/ piston nut-600 ft. Lbs. Gland nut torque-4" 400 ft. Lbs./10 drops loctite/packing nut 200 ft. Lbs./ 4 drops loctite /piston nut- 600 ft. Lbs. Gland nut-4-1/2" 350/400 ft. Lbs./12 drops loctite/packing nut 200 ft. Lbs./ 4 drops loctite/piston nut 600 ft. Lbs. Gland nut 5" 350 ft. Lbs./12 drops loctite/packing nut 200 ft. Lbs./ 4 drops loctite/ piston nut 600 ft. Lbs.
Nice specs carogator. I have one question though; Loctite on a gland? I have never done that, and don't know that I would consider doing that. Those things have a tendency to "Loctite" themselves without any help.
this is recommended on the cylinders by the manual. i only use it when i am sure i won't need to go back any time soon. 250 degrees will dissolve the loctite for removal. the gland nut doesn't get the loctite. i tried to make a chart but it won't print the way i set it up , first loctite on packing nut and second loctite on piston nut. maybe that is better.
I understand, and I agree that's what the manual recommends. But it's been my experience that I could probably count on 2 fingers the number of times I've run across a loose gland when building a cylinder. On the other hand, I more often find them tighter than tryin' to get money out of my wallet. Therefore, it just seems unnecessary to me. And yes, it does take very little heat to release Loctite. But, I never apply heat to a cyl/gland connection except as a last resort. So, an unsuspecting me, would begin the process of removing the gland. Eventually, I may get the gland to start turning, maybe even be successful in removing it...very hard, just to discover someone put Loctite on the gland. :Banghead I just don't see where it's necessary.
thats why i put in there the last post that the gland nut doesn't get the loctite
LoL, I got ya'...clarity is a good thing.
J.I. Case has a good method (IMHO) of keeping a gland nut tight by using index screws at the gland nut and barrel joint. It would be easy to put one on any hyd. cylinder. Like ATCOEQUIP said , they rarely ever get loose.
my buddy has a 98 555 ford. The gland bolt came out while he was using the machine on the dipper cylinder. He had to get a bigger bolt and tap the chrome part. He tightened it as hard as he could with a 4 foot pipe wrench on a 3/4 inch drive socket. He felt it about to happen again on the job so he took the machine home and took it apart again before it totally came out again. Same thing, the bolt was backing out. He talked to a backhoe mechanic that looked up the ft lbs for the bolt. It was I believe 2400 ft lbs! He had the mechanic put it on with a multiplier wrench with the correct torque setting.
I have an old 1984 JCB 1400B TLB, that I only use around the yard. Plowing snow the other day...and all of a sudden I heard a BANG, look at the front bucket curl cylinder, and it's shaped like a "U". Never in my life have I seen that one. Only thing I can think of is water got behind the piston somehow, froze...and when I retracted the rod she didn't like it. Anybody here have an idea on a salvage yard for a used cylinder for this dinosaur, or something of that nature? I think if I brought it to the hydraulic shop and had a new rod put in it'd cost as much as a new complete cylinder...? Just weighing the options, hoping for the best, expecting the worst I guess. Any input would be appreciated.
I'd guess you hit something solid buried in the snow to bend the rod like that. Did you have the bucket tilted down at steep angle to clear packed snow and ice? At least on skid steers that's a common way to bend cylinders when the operator isn't using his head. Bucket tilted straight down, front wheels a foot off the ground and full speed ahead. I don't think the hydraulics would have enough power on their own to bend a cylinder like that. It should be a lot less getting a new rod made than a new cylinder. They can cut the end off and weld it to the new rod.
The relief valve would kick in before the rod bent using just hydraulics, my guess Dave is right .
By no means did I hit anything. That loader was in mid air, I was traveling across the driveway moving snow. I went to adjust the angle of the bucket in mid air and I wasn't looking straight ahead; I was glancing elsewhere or else I'd have caught this. It was quick too, as I was curling all the while with my hand on the lever, continuous pressure on the lever and it just went BANG without any squealing or hydraulic noise which you would expect. That all adds up to a slug of ice behind the packing gland, because it did drop down into the negative temps. for a few days prior to this, and this day it was still only about 24*F out...not warm enough to thaw. I think you may be under estimating the strength of these JCB hydraulics with all due respect. As old and tired as this machine is, I use it occasionally to lift truck cutoffs with rears in tact, among other things that tests it's capabilities around the yard at times and this thing will flatten the front tires right down to the ground and keep lifting until the rear end leaves the ground, hoe attachment and all. I just came inside from disassembling the cylinder and removed the bent rod. There's absolutely nothing wrong inside, the piston packings were all fine, but my suspicions of water getting in that bore somehow, freezing and causing this seems more plausible than about any other theory I can come up with. The oil that came out of the bore when I popped the rod out was pure milk...a sign of water contamination. Why or where it came in is still a mystery, the fill cap is under the hood up by the radiator, under cover. But I've never changed the oil since I've owned it for 5 years, and I'd be surprised if the previous owners ever did either, so it may be due since it is after all, a 1984 era tractor. After all this, I am thinking back a few years ago one winter now. I recall that one cylinder giving me trouble freezing up come to think of it, and I had to warm it with the torch to free it up. Of course once it did, I just forgot about it and went on with life. That's making sense more than ever now. See, I don't use it enough to worry about things as I should, it's a hydraulic helper when I need to lift something but it sits for long extended periods of time and I always say I'm going to spend a weekend on her and give her a full scale PM and do a bunch of small stuff to make it better...but never seem to find the time yet. It's done nothing but make life easier and never gave me a lick of trouble until now, so I should take the time to give it a good service now and preserve it another 35 years. You're probably right too...I should just bring the rod to the hydraulic shop and they can make a new one easy enough. But the trouble with JCB is it's metric, so that may pose a challenge for them there. I heard of a place in Meyerstown, Pa., Wenger's...that may have a used one. That's my first call tomorrow morning. If not, the 2nd will be the hydraulic shop. Thanks for the input guys, good stuff here.
Forgot to mention, the links and pins are all just as lubed and loose as can be...I pulled the pins by hand even. So nothing in the linkage that bound up to cause this...only reasonable explanation is ice.
You would think water would be in both cylinders and the entire hydraulic system. I would get the relief valve checked too.
You would, I'd agree. But for some reason as i mentioned, i had this same one freeze on me a couple years ago and nothing else has ever given me a problem...so it's isolated to that single barrel ironically.
I, with my son have repacked numerous cylinders. usually, it isn't a big thing. We had a boom cylinder on a 580K that appeared to have been shot. The tube had a ding I believe to have been caused by a bullet. I made a spanner for the sizeable gland nut. Ultimately two days later, a ten foot handle on the homemade spanner, we got it loose. The 6"? gland nut had been put on with a generous amount of red locktite. We had to heat it to get it off. It turned out we needed a new barrel and piston for the cylinder.
I had a rod similar to that one have a hydraulic shop cut the eye off and weld it to a new one they made for $280.
That's where I'm headed I'll bet, after a couple of calls this morning to see it I can find a used one, but I have my doubts. Plus even if I do find a good, used cylinder, it'll probably be 500+ miles away and by the time I get it shipped I can have a new rod most likely. I just had a 12' long stroke cylinder worked on at a hydraulic shop about 1.5 hrs. away. I have a heavy duty rollback truck and had the slide ram that pulls the bed fore and aft blow the gland right out the end of it about a month ago now...that one has an internal snap ring that holds the gland in place. The end of the barrel got spread open from hitting on the mount that the rear eye pins to...and finally mushroomed it enough to cause it to fail. I pulled the cylinder out and brought it to them, and asked if they could possibly save it rather than me buy a whole new one (very expensive.) By cutting off 6" of barrel and rod, and re-cutting the snap ring groove they saved it for me for 1/2 the price of a new ram. Now all I have to do is re-install it...not an easy task by yerself...
On Route 7 in Wallingford White Rocks Inn was created after a wealthy gentleman farmer died. The first Bed and breakfast owner bought a new 1985 International 385 utility with loader, and hog. The property, and tractor changed hands 4 times, but nobody used it. A couple years ago It went up for sale. It had 1100 hours. The cutting edge on the bucket was still painted. The hog was damaged, cause some knucklehead had it adjusted to lift into the tractor tires. I bought it. The top of the bucket was damaged, and one cylinder looked like yours. A friend immediately informed me it had been in "the pond". We got home, and started draining fluid. Sure enough, milky in the bottom. I stopped payment on the check. Discussion got unpleasant, but I ended up with the tractor much cheaper. Ice had formed in the bent cylinder, the other cylinder was enough to bend the rod. Or' somebody tried to force it by pushing on a tree.
You really need to do a complete hydraulic system flush, maybe twice to get pure uncontaminated oil in the entire system. Or, you may be replacing a pump and another cylinder rod.
At least you got a discount after all that, lol. Sounds like a nice find nevertheless. I'm gonna do some research and see if i can find a hydraulic shop in around central Mass. maybe. Gotta be one around Worcester I'd say. I'm closer to there than Rutland in reality...I'm just gonna have a new rod made...and drop the oil out and replace it with new, see what happens. Ain't nothing a few hundred dollars can't solve, lol.
You'll have to take both cylinders apart so they can make the other rod the same length. Weird how only one cylinder would freeze. Or is that the cold side from the wind or??? I'd also check that the hoses aren't collapsing internally
In my case clean out proved to be a big job. I tried buying cheap oil, and replacing oil and filters repeatedly. Water was always hiding. Brakes would freeze up in winter. I ended up taking it to Reed's in Claremont NH. They went through the system cleaning one component at a time. Ultimately, I needed a new hydraulic pump. Now it's a very nice tractor. I spent more on it than I would have chosen to. Willie
I ended up taking the rod over to Mooradian's Hydraulics over in Castleton, NY just south of Albany yesterday Willie. It's a bit of a hike, but there's a good reason why I did it. 2 years ago I purchased all the parts to build a wetline for one of my tractors. They stock everything imaginable. Then one of the 2 PTO's I had on that truck started leaking, so I brought it back to them to re-seal it. Long story short, 6 months passes and they lost my PTO...vanished. They tried to make it right by giving me another one...but I dropped off a Muncie, and they gave me a Chelsea (which is actually better,) but the gears were nowhere near the same as what I needed to work on my transmission. So instead of getting all upset and mad, I figured that this might be a good opportunity to get evened back up again. They are a full-blown hydraulic cylinder rebuilding shop too which I didn't even realize until I called them this week, so I ran it over there yesterday. Me and one of the guys in the shop immediately went to work on it removing the nut and piston off the rod, and if the welder wasn't out sick, I could have had that thing done in an hour he said. So I have to drive a little bit for this, but the end result will be a new rod for literally nothing in exchange for my misfortune with the missing PTO. It was 2 hours to Castleton, NY.... or 1.75 hrs. to NH Hydraulics in Merrimack, so not a huge difference. Should be all done tomorrow morning he said. That's a bit quicker than the other cylinder I had done at NH Hydraulics after 2 weeks in their shop. I'm going to try and flush the system as you said with Tractor Supply oil and filter a couple of times to see if it clears up, but like you say, water seems to find those low spots and it's tough to get it all. Good news is I'll be very, very careful from now on below freezing.
I'll talk to them. My cylinder has been at the hydraulic shop 2 weeks plus. He pulled it apart. the piston needs to be built up, and turned. the tube needs to be replaced. He admitted yesterday he hasn't ordered materials yet. Says it'll be "a while" as he's backed up. I like the guy, I like his work, but I want my tractor back together. Willie
Yeah I was impressed with their inventory of parts for cylinders. They had 40 mm rod right in the rack which is what my JCB is. They can make anything you need. Kind of a step from home, but where we live, what isn't anyway? NH Hydro finally dropped off my long stroke cylinder for my rollback truck, so that's next week's mission.