Is a D3 or older D4 adequate for digging a smll tank or lake 1.5 acres and 10 to 12 foot deep?
It will do the job, just depends on how much time you have
Both the 3 or 4 will do the job, but as said before how fast do you want the lake done!:cool2
Yea its possible. Thats a lot of work for that little machine tho. Its been a while since ive run numbers like this. 1 acre = 43,560 sq ft 1.5 acres = 65,340 sq ft To figure cubic yards sq ft x depth, 10 ft in this case, divide by 27 to convert into cubic yards =24,200 cubic yards. someone correct me if im wrong please. A scraper crew with a push dozer, d7 and two terex ts14s would move about 4000 cubic yards in a day. Thats a little better than a week of work for them. Your looking at taking a long time to build this with a d3 or d4.
lake? don't ya mean pond? Turbo, your math is right, how about this? about 1300 end dump loads, peaked no less...if I was a betting man, I'd guess about halfway through the job, the D3 (or 4), would probably turn into a 6,7, or 8!
Well I was gonna say tank, but in some of my other post some people don't know what a stock tank is, they were calling them sumps. So Even though I wouldn't call this a pond, I called it a small lake so everybody would be on the same page. thanks for the math, that helps a lot. chris
I forgot to mention about swell factor. In a hard rock, you expect the cubic yardage to swell by 50% when you blast and start moving it. Im going to guess your dealing with a clay soil, which is about 30% swell. Which means the number i gave you will be approximately 30% larger by the time you move it. It is possible to do this with a small dozer. I would recomend starting a small portion of it, and dig it deeper than any other area in the pond. Grade everything to drain to that spot as you make the pond bigger. This way you have a low spot to pump water out of if you need to. An important consideration for the length of this project.
What are you going to do with all the excess?
I am moving some of the excess over to a low area about 50 yards away. I was going to do all of this with a wheel loader with a 4.5 yd bucket. Can't find a decent d6 in my area, and am getting tired of looking. Found the wheel loader but am having mixed feelings. I thought I could do more overall work around the place with a d6, but can't find one. Found some smaller stuff in my area, so I thought I'd ask about that. Guess I should proly go with tthe wheel loader unless a d6 pops up before I go and get the loader.
I dont know where the cost of the loader falls in your budget, if theres anything left you can always pick up a blade when you find a decent one. You can always push the material out for the loader to carry it away. Two machines sounds more productive based on the size of your project.
Consider renting 4-wheel drive tractor and hydraulic scraper.:usa
I reclaimed (dugout pre-existing pond) a pond with a D6 and a ex150 excavator with a 6ft bucket. IT took me all summer after work, holidays from Memorial day to Labor day and some weekends to get the job done digging and pushing . I started with a D5 and quickly moved to a D6. Unless you plan on spending all your time on a D3 or 4 you need something bigger. Mine was only 8ft deep and 1 acre. For my next "tank", 2.5 acres, I have D5, D6, excavator, and a 20yd four wheel drive scraper and I hope I can get it done this year!
Welcome to Heavy Equipment Forums cwooten! :drinkup
The only d6 i can afford would be a d6 9u which was later replaced by the d5 i think. They have only an 8 foot blade. Is this machine too small to do my project with?
Thanks for the welcome. I have spent some time on a 6 9U. It would be heavier than the 3 or 4 and as long as it held together it should be big enough, just take your time. My dad cleared our farmland and dug many farm ponds with ours.
Found d6 yesterday, it wasnt' as clean as i would hve liked but it was chead i felt like at 8500.oo. When I went to close the deal it developed a knock in the engine. Guy came off to 6500, what do you guys think? I could get lucky and it be an injector problem or I could be faced with an overhaul a month of downtime and maybe have 11 or 12 in the thing when I could have bought a cleaner one out of state for that. I just know what these d6 8u's are bringing in real world. Internet pricing is scattered all over the place.
8500 for an 8u??? It had better be in tip top shape with a new undercarrige for that price. As with any dozer you are looking at make sure the undercarrage is in good shape, or at least don't over pay for a worn out u/c. I would say if the engine is knocking figure on a complete overhaul, probally 2-5k, or buy a parts tractor with a good engine, cause you will need more parts sooner or later (I have a 9u for sale, pm me for details if interested). A couple years ago I sold one of my 9Us (in average shape) for 5000, and my D6B (worn out engine, otherwise good) for 4500. Those are good tough old tractors, but it sounds like you have a lot of dirt to move, and those tractors are also tough on the operator. The 8/9U D6s are comparable to a D5K for weight and power, the 8/9U would probaly push a little more, but the newer machine will push twice as fast. You might be better off looking for a 2U/14A/15A D8, would still be in your price range and do the job quite a bit quicker.
Why buy someone elses junk,first off.Better to go rent a good machine and when done let it go back. Wore out,junk broke down doesn't get anything done,plain and simple! See it all the time,it breaks down then there it sets never to move there after,or it goes back on the market for some other sucker. Sorry just the hard facts coming out If you can't afford a decent machine hire someone to do it for you.Most of the time conservation work,as is pond(tank) is tax deductible (expense)if you are a rancher,farmer. Just remember if it is setting broke down ,nothings getting done.Then after you get it fixed for that 5k repair bill, then think how far that would have gone renting or hiring it done. I would still get a scraper of some kind for a tractor if you already have one of them????? Well good luck,sounds like your need it.:usa
Hi all great info here. I hate to piggyback onto a thread but can't post my own. I am looking at a D4D that is in really good shape, runs well, and has a very good undercarriage. The owner did not know the year of the dozer. the sn-83J1991 was on both the dozer and the motor. He wanted 15K for it, I talked him down to 14K Is there anything special to look for and do you know what year it is. What is the weight of this dozer, it has a 4way blade. This would be my first dozer, and it would be for farm use clearing and some grading. Thanks
Great way to compare is Machinery Trader or Rock and Dirt. Do a search and you can compare specs, years and prices. Also, check how much undercarriage is left on it. Why did you decide on a D4D? http://www.machinerytrader.com/default.asp?pdcl=1 http://www.rockanddirt.com/
A cheap dozer is not necessarily a good dozer. It is probably cheap for a reason. An undercarriage is the most important part of buying a dozer. Engines and transmissions are not as expensive to rebuild or overhaul. You can spend or overspend what you have in the machine on the undercarriage. Unfortunately, I speak from experience.
Well maybe I'm better off renting, I just was not gonna pay 12k to have a tank done, when I can bbuy a dozer for that. I can rent a d5 for about 3500/month. I might be better off. I wish I could find something older and clean though I would be glad to have it for future use and would take care of it. Problem is all the stuff in my price range is beaten all to heck cause it's old. No one seemed to take very good care of those machines for a while. And ror i'd be interested in your 9u if the price is right and it is fairly straight. From the online ads, it's hard to find any d6 under 8500 unless something major worng with it, it it spent a stint doing underwater duty in LA LOL
Best wat to dig a large pond or small lake is with a farm typr tractor and a dirt bucket or scraper as some refer to them. You can probably pick up a 150hp. older tractor at a farm auction for a pretty reasonable price. That is what the majority of ponds are dug with in this area.
83J1991 would make it a '72 build, as the frame and engine serial are the same it would have the D330C engine. The tractor and blade (no canopy) would be roughly 20,300lb. "has a very good undercarriage"....have you measured it for % wear?
Size Does Matter. Hi, CGFreeland. The D6 8U/9U was replaced by the D6B which ceased production when the D6C came out, only to be recycled as the D5 about 3 years later when Cat woke up that they had a gaping hole in their product line. A D6 9U would have a blade somewhere close to 9 feet wide as a straight dozer or nearer 10 1/2 feet as an angle dozer. The 9U was the wide gauge version at 72" center to center of the tracks while the 8U was the standard gauge version at 60" center to center . If you embark on this project with a D3 or D4, make sure you have at least a cut lunch and plenty of drinking water handy. You'll be there for a while. I'm not saying that it can't be done, only that it will take a while. F'rinstance, you can figure on at least 100 foot pushes whichever way way you care to look at it. You may be better off looking for an older D7 - 3T/17A - or a D8 - 2U/13A for the job. Since I live DownUnder and don't overly concern myself with prices of secondhand plant anyway, I don't know what these machines are bringing in your part of the world. I do know that they will get it done a lot quicker. Also, before parting with your 'hard-earned', either thoroughly check it out yourself or have someone who knows what's what check it for you. The suggestion of a 4wd tractor and pan is not altogether stupid either, especially if you know how to use it correctly for the job. Hope this helps.
"has a very good undercarriage"....have you measured it for % wear? I am going today with a friend who is a Cat mechanic to measure it and have him look it over. He is also going to pull it up in Cat's system and do an oil sample. It does have a rops on it and screen in the back. Thanks for the reply
I do currently have a john deere 4020 late model disel, it is not however for wheel drive, nor is it 150ho. It is 100hp. I was gonna get a scraper for it to help me move some of the dirt away from the banks, casue I dont' really want to build a dam per say very high up. I can consider a d7 or d8 they seem to be about the same in price as a d6. I just htought perhaps a d6 would be best all around, caseu it would be easier to transport if need be. Thing most scares me about the bigger the machine is maintenance. The older d6's seem to have a pretty good rep for being reliable, but dont' know anything bout the d7's or d8's. And I am so afraid of trying to buy something in my price range that won't give me problems of an expensive nature. I know it's alwyas somewhat of a risk to buy used anything. But tis all i can afford. My bulldozer dollar may not go as far as my tractor dollar did looks like. LOL. If I coudl bring myself to sell the 4020 I could buy a much nicer dozer, but i need her as much later as well and having to replace that hard find would not be easy.
JD and scraper Hi, CGFreeland. To me at least, you have the answer right there in your last post, if you can afford it. Buy a scraper that your JD can handle and use that for the longer hauls as it would be a good bit more economical than trying to long push with a D3/D4. Then you could use the little dozer for work to which it is more suited, the shorter pushes and trimming batters, etc.. Hope this helps.
Hey deas, i dont' currently have a d3 or d4 i was just renting a d3 sized machine. Did you mean buy a d6 and use the tractor to move the dirt with a scraper or just continue to rent the d3 and do it with me on the d3 and someone on my tractor with a scraper?
Hi, CGFreeland. The running expenses on your tractor and a scraper would be a bit less than a D3/D4 and for a fair bit more production over the distances you're looking at. So long as you know how to strip the topsoil under the base of your wall, key the wall into the existing ground and clay it up to seal it, I would suggest doing the bulk of the work with your tractor and a pan and just getting a dozer in at the finish to dress it all up. Even if your JD only handled a 3 cu. yd scraper, it would take all of the 3 cu. yd load right to the wall where a dozer would be losing some and cutting some and losing some of that all the way to the wall. What's more, once loaded, the tractor/scraper combo would get the material to the dump area faster and get back faster for the next load. I don't know the configuration of your JD but I would suggest that tyre ballast back AND front would be worth considering, at least for this job, if you don't already have it. If you are not sure about stripping, keying in, etc., Just let out a yell and I or somebody else will give you the information you need. There are a good few who do know about such things. One very important point when working this way is that you need to keep the outside edges of your wall higher than the middle as you work your way up. This helps to stop your rig going over the edge of the fill. Hope this helps.
I am ready for a tutorial on keying and striping. Dont' be shy, i'm completely uneducated and any inforamtion would be helpful, or oh well just go anhead and tell me step by step how to dig it if you have the time, LOL. I am checking on 3 yard scrapers as we speak and am clueless in digging out on digging out a tank with them. Thanks so much for help guys. This sounds like a good way better than other way, I've just never heard of anyone doing a tank this way. Everybody down here digs them with a dozer. I was told that , with a dozer, to strip off topsoil and oput in a pile then strip off clay and put in a pile then dig hole, with a dozer then pack the clay back on top of it to seal it and put the topsoil out on the banks and around that. Only for my project and the one test hole I dug, proly hsould have dug more. I have topsoil with a high clay contenet down to about 10 feet. Deeper it got, more dark brown clay it had in it. Then at 10 feet I hit a two foot layer of solid white or light grey clay that felt like modeling clay right out of the store, then I hit bedrock at about 12 feet. Next day when I went out there there was about a foot and a hlaf of water in the hole I dug, and it hadn't rained. I assuming that I hit water. It that good, bad or doesn't matter?
Wet and clay are a combination that scrapers don't like. That's probally why as you say "everybody down here digs them with a dozer". You would be alright with the scraper untill you get down a few feet and things get wet, then the scraper gets useless and you will want a dozer to finish with. I have a Hancock elevating scraper and it works wonders in sandy soil, topsoil, and dry clay (as long as it's not too hard), but when I get in heavy clay, and there is any water invloved I leave the scraper at home. Better off with a dozer if it is a short push (up to 1-200' depending on size of the dozer) or excavator & trucks for longer hauls. Might want to go with a dozer & scraper combo, that would get you farther when it gets wet, but if it is a short push, why bother with the scraper. You might also want to do what you can with your tractor and a scraper and then rent a dozer to finish it off (rent one you could pull the scraper with if you still have a distance to go at that point :cool2)
I hate to be pessimistic but I have spent many hours on a 4020, 5020, 4430, 4630, D5, D6, etc. I have used a pull type pan scraper as I mentioned previously. There is no way you can dig a 1.5 acre pond 10-12 feet deep with a 4020 and a pull scraper in a reasonable amount of time. You are going to get the topsoil off and moved and that will be it. Once you get to the clay and moisture/water line you will have to have a dozer. As I mentioned earlier, you need quite a bit of hp just for a small scraper as well as needing dual wheels. I used a 150hp tractor with duals, front weights, front fuel tank and still had a hard time keeping the front end down when pulling hard. Another alternative to your situation is to top load (use a track hoe) your scraper for your longer hauls. That takes all the difficulty out of loading the clay and moist stuff. You will also need a trackhoe or dozer for cutting your keyway.
Another possible suggestion would be a track loader like 977 on dozer plates. They push well and can pick up and carry, or load trucks for longer hauls. A 4 in one bucket is handy for picking up timber and you also have good height reach for pushing large trees down.....C ya.........Ray
The ground would probably get to soft for a track or wheel loader. Where are ya at in TX?
If ground is too soft for track or wheel loaders, your choices are narrowed down to LGP machines or excavators digging to final level and other machines to remove the spoil to where it's needed. I'm down under in Australia not TX. Pur ground conditions vary from VERY hard to VERY soft, just like yours........C ya.......Ray
If you have enough time you could dig it with a shovel. (that is one of those things with the wooden handel and NO start button. Just makin it clear for those few on here that might not know what i'm talkin about ) now with all that being said. yes a d3 or d4 would work for diggin it out. it's just gonna take time. i don't think that there is hardly a time that we all don't wish we had a bigger machine for the job or more kinds of equipment do to it with.
Soil Profile. Hi, CGFreeland. From the soil profile that you have described and the fact that you found water in the hole after it standing overnight, I would NOT dig down to the bedrock. I would stop at the white/grey clay layer. I would guess that you have underground water moving between the bedrock and the clay layer above it. If water can move INTO your test hole that way, it could also move OUT of your completed tank the same way. 'Keying in' is the process of digging a keyway down to sealing clay through the length of your bank and then back-filling that keyway with sealing clay and compacting it thoroughly to stop water leaking out through the more permeable topsoil layers. 'Stripping' is the practice of removing any topsoil contaminated with vegetable matter prior to starting construction of your wall. This topsoil removal is best done over the WHOLE area, wall and hole, to avoid any contamination of your clay fill when building your wall. Topsoil is usually removed down to the first subsoil layer and stockpiled outside the work area for later redistribution on the finished wall. The keyway may well need to go deeper than the topsoil stripping to get into good sealing clay. You CAN dig a keyway with a scraper and it is a good idea to have a reasonably wide keyway to make it easier to get in there and compact the replacement clay fill material as you haul it in. This usually means about 1 1/2 to 2 machine widths in the bottom to allow you to move across the floor of the keyway to compact the whole of each layer of fill. Battered sides are also a good idea for the same reason. A loaded scraper and several passes over the whole floor of the keyway will usually do a pretty fair job of compacting this fill. If your wall does not go all the way around and you are worried about water leaking out through the topsoil where the wall isn't, I'd suggest making your keyway go right around the entire perimeter of the tank/pond and only filling to ground level where there is no wall. The material excavated from the keyway can be re-used in the main body of your wall unless it is absolute garbage, just not back over the keyway. In some situations, you may need to keep building the keyway with good sealing clay as a core within your wall right to the top of the wall and back it up on either side with lesser material to ensure that water doesn't leak through material that might not seal as well as you would like. Hope this helps.
Pic of one "coretrench" on one of the many dams we have constructed over the years. There are a few more in "Trbos Gallery of Stuff". Trbo
Southonbeach, I was assuming cgfreeland had a day job like myself. Yes, he can dig it with a small scraper, D3, or D4. I was just giving my opionion since it took me all summer from including holidays and weekends and 2-3 days after work to dig a pond half his size with twice as big equipment.
I wanna see more pics. before the pond, during, after, etc......
I'm in Brownwood, tx. How deep do you make you keyways' deas? I am gonna have very little "dam" around the top of the tank as I want the banks of the dam to only rise up a foot or two above ground level for cosmetic reaons. So even if i'm not builind a very high dam, I still need to keyway in around the tank perimiter way down past the topsoil?
ointheadAlso, if there are any books or online tutorials on this digging tanks, ponds, or lakes subject, please let me know. I have been unable to find anything written about the subject.
Keyways or simply claying up. Hi, CGFreeland. If you are only planning on banks 1 foot high, would it be a rude question to ask where you plan on disposing of all the material from the 10 foot deep hole? If you are only going up 1 foot with your bank, I'd simply over-excavate outside where you plan on having the foot of your bank/wall when you remove the topsoil and replace the over-excavation with good sealing clay when you have some. You can find a bit more about dam sinking/tank construction in this thread: Hope this helps.
Cgfreeland, Check out pondboss.com
no deas not at all. I plan on moveing about 50 yards over to help fill in a low area on my land and will need a lot of fill dirt over there anyway. As it sits right now, I am thinking of buying an older d6 and a 3 yard scraper for my john deere 4020 tractor. That way One of us could be pushing out the tank with the dozer and the other could be grabbing the dirt and be moving it over to where it needs to be to fill in.
Forget the books,better idea!!!!!!!!! maybe you should go watch the guys that have to do it for a living and see how it is done and then you might find out why they get as much as they do!!!!!! You need to be sure what your getting into before you spend that hard earned cash and find out if only i would have ???????? At least pick out a contractor to watch that you would at least hire if you could loosen up with some of that old molty cash With the last two options as of machines at least you might have at least one machine working while the other one is setting.:beatsme Good luck an Carry on ! :usa
Choices. Hi, CGFreeland. That sounds like a reasonable compromise to me. If you are not putting the excavated material into the wall, that immediately means longer push/haul distances - or the old Indian vanishing trick. LOL. The beauty of scrapers/pans is that what you get in the bowl usually gets to the dump site - assuming no roll-overs - with little if any spillage. They spread that material and at least partially compact it as they go. They can maintain their own haul roads, trim some batters, trim floors and - use your imagination. It would be good to have a scraper with a rear push block so that the dozer can help out if needed. Some pull scrapers will accept mounting a push block on them and some won't. Just a thought. Happy hunting.
With the housing market flat on its face you might be able to get a good deal renting a big dozer from a developer at a great rate. Here in Pa I know where you could get some serious d7h/k, d8r/t, or a 9L. If the owners have them setting, they might give you a good deal on renting them. That would be what I would try.
She'll get the job done but you will have to take your time. Rome wasn't built in a day!
Hey Guys, thought I'd give you all a late update. I wound up buying a d7e dozer for 28,500. Bout 90% undercarraige and then a blot came loose in the engine that was holding one of the oiler tubes for all the gears. It stripped teeth off every gear even the crankshaft. I drove to canada and bought a replacement engine and still have not put it in yet. I also bought a very large tured and tuned up John deere 5020 tracker with a hydraulic 9 yard scraper and a push bar. I've been playing with it and getting all the quirks out of it. It seems to work pretty well and last week finally started digging my small lake with the scraper. I hope to get the engine swapped out on my dozer in the next couple of months and I'll keep you guys updated.
I forgot to mention I have added a JD 310A Backhoe/loader and and ford 8n to my equipment collection. SO Cat D7E Dozer---changing engines JD4020---10 ft shredder, 8 ft box balde with rippiers JD5020----9 yeard scraper JD310A Ford 8N---small shredder
Quite a little fleet you have there
So you went from THIS "The only d6 i can afford would be a d6 9u which was later replaced by the d5 i think. They have only an 8 foot blade. Is this machine too small to do my project with? " To this musta won the lottery.....$$ do cure issues for sure
we are digging one with a d4 xl and making quick work of it. using john deere 6210 with 8ft bucket to move the dirt and let the dozer dig
lol you probably would have had the small lake done by now with just the small dozer :tong
I see you made some choices. You could have hired the pond dug for less than that d7, but I guess you can sell the machine when you get done. I engineered and inspected on a project where the landowner dug the pond with a d4, a small case dozer, and an excavator. He had all his friends out there helping him and it took him from september to december when the weather shut him down and then several more months the following year. Not ideal for dam building. He finally got some real operators out there to help and dug it with the hoe and dump trucks. Those little dozers have their place, a large pond excavation probably isn't it. They level the dam slopes nice though when you're done. Most pull pans around here are behind articulated tractors or cat challengers.
Digging a Pond I purchased a 05 Case 650 K LT in what manner do I start to dig a small half acre pond? Also I have a JD Skip Loader for smothing things out. DR
Gday all, i have a job lined up for closing in a dam, wall height is probs about 15 ft high, its cut into a slope, so there is only one real wall. Now i have been wondering what the best machine would be to break it up, i was considering using a 4WD articulated tractor with a dozer blade on the front and towing a meter deep ripper behind. Below the dam is a row of precious trees i cannot touch... The plan i have is to run along the top of the wall, and make cuts along the wall, pushing the clay to a stock pile. Once the dam wall is gone will wait until the floor has dried and then will commence the filling. Is this a good method? Can anyone suggest maybe a better setup? and when finishing off does the reclaimed area need to be compacted to certain specifications? cheers alex
Hey CGFreeland, You need to call Jackie Bean. (580)795-7719. He can take care of you on the D7E parts. If he doesn't have one, he will let you know where to find what you need. Great guy to deal with on these older tractors. Btw, those big 4 cylinders had a timed oilpump if I remember correctly. That gets out of time and it will shake you to death!
i currently own a 92 d4c dozer and a case w20c wheel loader, 2.5 cubic yard bucket. i dig ponds but it is a chore somtimes. a small dozer is best utlized as a finish machine or for site clearing. alot of the problem with a small dozer is the blade design/shape. it is made to spread material evenly, not carry material out of a hole. get a d6 with a semi-u blade, which is cupped to reatain material and continus to move it. a good machine for you and me both would be a 953/963/973 track loader. you can clear timber, load trucks, and dig a pond with a track loader. or consider a 931/933/939 with a ripper.
i have also bought parts from jackie bean, great person to deal with.