Well here we go. Evidently the first copy of Cats Hi Sprocket Dozers. A Chinese Outfit is now building them and has a distibuter in Canada. Anyone out there checked one out yet? Cat 236 Alaska
I heard that the Aberta Oil sands are looking at them, they are so cheap, if one disappears into a sink hole, rescue the operator and buy anuder!!
what are they called?
the one thats been released in oz is called Sino,and are obviously cheap cats product range is d6d d6g d7p sd7 high track sd8 high track and soon a sd9 cummins powered www.sinoheavy.com
There loaders look alot like older komatsu's too
Aussie owned co. and built in china :beatsme
I read somewhere that all the welds are hand welded, one weld was so bad you could stick a needle through a hole on the weld!
I wounder how much they cost compared to cat? I'm guessing at 2000 hours they would be junk!!
That is some of the most blantant copying I've ever seen. They didn't even care enough to change the look of the cab!! Boy inovation, yours until someone gets a hold of it and copies it for a lower price!
Here are some pics...
And the link to the website.....Sorry pic was blurry, first time posting http://www.sinoheavy.com/index.php
Not only a copy Cat, but a copy Komatsu dozer as well. SD7P, which, in their own words, is directly interchangeable with a D-85 Komatsu
I got my copy of Construction Equipment yesterday and saw these China machines, whats the deal. Are these old refurbished Cat and Komatsu's with Cummins engine's in them.
I was wondering if they were refurbushed too. Also they had prices in the "Construction Equipment" magizine too.
they look like they are new any word on the cost?
Yeah well for all we know Cat might have allowed them to copy the machines at taken a large $$'$$$'$$$ Dividend. Ross
Prices 59,500lb-HX SD7-$350,000 106,925-HX SD9-$575,000
looking at the website, the pictures at the factory do look more like a refurb shop than an assembly line. A bunch of machines outside in all different states of paint, color and decals. I would think they were new though.
There seems to be some confusion here. The machines are built by Changlin and HBXG, not Sino. Sino is the dealer for them, not the owner of the company or manufacturer. Brian
Old saying goes, you get what you pay for. If these machines do make it here there are some that will try them. But then comes the question of parts. In theory you could go to the cat dealer for uc parts. Until they ask your for a sn that is. I dont see these being sold for very long, cats patent atts. are gonna put an end to it if they can
I'd wether take my chances on a good low houred used machine for that price.They are out there just check machinerytrader. At least there the orginal Cat to start with at least.Different strokes for different folks.Right !:drinkup:usa
Look alike Cat's I was offered a job working for a company in there research department. Beings that I'm not getting any younger I went last week and talked to them. The one guy I needed to talk with, use to work for Cat and we got to talking about the knock off Cats. He said the main thing is China is building the main frames, track frames and hard noses. Other than that they are just buying after market parts and assembling the machines. The problem is Quality control with the parts China is building. The rest of the machine is just as good if not better than an original Cat. He has seen and talked to people that have these machines and two machines will be good and the next one is a problem. The main frame is the heart of a machine. Not much of Cat machines are built in the United States, but since some Cat machines are assembled in the United States some people think that makes all Cats great. Komatsu and Hitachi are bigger players world wide that Cat and a lot of their machines are built over seas. Their main target market is areas that had short machine lives. I ran one of these in Florida two years ago and it ran great, but then it only had 4,000 hours on it. The company that had it looked at renting a machine at 6,000 dollars a month and said if this machine would run for a year and they could sell it and get some of their money back they would better off. So many companies now rent or buy what equipment they need for a job then return or sell the equipment when the job is done. They know what their cost is on that job and don't have money tied up in equipment. This is the market that is being targeted with these machines. We all made fun of the Japanese stuff a few years ago and now they are major players in the Auto, electrical and construction fields. China is the next Japan
Knock off Cats Cat' patent is long gone on the D6D, These are being built under the same rights as the aftermarket parts are being built.
Copy Cat: The Construction Equipment article leads me to believe that Terraquip will have them at ConExpo. "Made by Chinese Changlin Co., and distributed by Terraquip, headquartered in Toronto." http://http://www.constructionequipment.com/article/CA6521903.html - Christopher Visit http://EquipmentImages.net
Who know ,someday if they don't make it on there own,Cat might buy into there busniess and they will be making them for Cat,with there cheaper labor. Also who knows maybe the China factory is hoping that happens also. Who know cyrstal ball anyone:beatsme:usa
I have to agree with RKO above. Asians are improving quality as we speak. I needed a large swamp dozer in 1982 for a niche hire market & purchased a low hour D7G LGP from Japan. The manufacturer was Caterpillar Mitsubishi and all parts were the same as US manufactured machines except mine had self cleaning plates. (Triangular in shape, not just wider conventional plates). Blade width was 4metres to cover the tracks and it could push as much as a D8K. More in bad ground!! I kept this machine for 16yrs, a record for me, as it was always in high demand. Finally sold it with over 30,000hrs when the work changed direction. Swamp work is now done with excavator/dump truck combos. Scheduled rebuilds kept it very reliable, in spite of its Asian heritage.....C ya........Ray
Cat better look out the Chinese might own Cat. Last week I heard, China has more money invested and on loan in the United States now than any other country. And China is one of the fastest growing country in the world. China's quality control was nothing a couple years ago and improving quickly. Look at how many Cat machines are made in countries other than the United States and they are great machines. Why do you think Cat has machines built were they do? Cheap labor, better quality and cheaper shipping. Even the machines that are assembled in the U.S. most parts are built some were else and ship here. The Japanese have taken over the Auto, Electronic and Construction industry. From running that machine in Florida I would not be scared to buy one. The components are the same as replacement parts that you can buy for you U.S. built machine.
Hi chaps, just to mention, Chinese CATS were built under licence in collaberation with Caterpillar. The most popular variants being the mid sized D6 and D7. Two such companies to mention involved were/are QINGHAI CONSTRUCTION MACHINERY PLANT which built under licence the D7G ast the QT-200T for their home market or the QTD7G for export. The other company, PENG PU MACHINE BUILDING PLANT known as SHANGHAI built the D6D under licence as the PD6Y using the CAT 3306 engine and in fact the parts between the genuine D6D and the PD6Y were known as interchangeable. The high sprocket market CATS built under licence in China were the SHEHWA/XUANUA. Two model types were produced which were the SD7 based on the CAT D7H with power provided by a Chongqing-Cummins NT855C280 6-Pot, the other being the TYH-220 powered by the Weifang (Licenced Steyr) WD615T6 engine. Our Chinese friends also produced Komatsu Dozers under licence with variations of power units. Contrary to suggestions of poor build, I assume they had to have some standard of quality if they were to be granted build licences from both CAT and KOMATSU.. Maybe my friend DEAS may help further? as a good few were exported to Australia through an agency. Politically, the licences were bought in two stages. The first, took place in 1979 when the Chinese Government bought licences from KOMATSU for production of the D80/D85 D155, later being extended to the D60/D65. In 1986, the Chinese Government then purchased the licence from CATERPILLAR to produce locally, the D6D D7G and later, the high sprocket D7H. Hope this is of help. Regards, Dave:
Pretty interesting facts, Thanks
See my post in the excavator forum. It sounds like you bought a SCM machine. Although you can't be sure without checking the serial with a Cat dealer.
If these machines are built 10 times better than a Cat and 10 times cheaper, I still wouldn't consider buying one. I think alot of U.S. consumers have forgotten that China is a communist country, and its government harbors some anti U.S. sentiments. More and more American companies are farming out their manufacturing to China, and sending China alot of U.S. dollars. And with the U.S. economy now floundering, and China holding ALOT of U.S. dollars, it seems like we are truly flirting with disaster. At the rate we are going, eventually either China or the Arabs (or both) will own the United States. So I guess what I'm saying is that I'm not mad or surprised that China is building these things, rather I'm disapointed that any red blooded Americans would consider buying one. Anyone agree?
I agree!:usa I always look to see where a product is made, and buy American. During the cold war the Russians didn't do business with us. If the Chinese were true commies they wouldn't want nothing to do with us.
But that's the point...if you're buying Cat, or most any machine for that matter, you are buying from these countries. Maybe not directly, but each machine sold put money in other countries pockets. Try finding one machine that doesn't have atleast one part that says "Made in China". To buy something truely American nowadays, you have to find something that was not only completely assembled in the US, but also completely manufactured in the US, all parts included. Those products are becoming few and far between.
Your'e right C.B. But I'll pay more for something at least partially U.S. made as long as there's money in my account and breath in my lungs! If suddenly sales of Kopy Kats leave real Cats in the dust, then Caterpillar will have no choice but to start building everything overseas. (or Kopy Fords, or Kopy kenworths or what ever) If we give up, they win! Don't forget, the last world super power, Rome, fell from the inside!
Cats The problem with buying something that is made in the United States is most machines are made some place else and maybe they are assembled in the U.S. Name a machine that is fully made and assembled in the U.S.??Even if you buy something from a "U.S. company a lot of the time the money is funneled to an off shore account to beat the U.S.Government. Second if you are competing in the work place a business needs to look at the bottom line. Cat along with every business that is going to survive has to do that and if that includes buying from a manufacturer other than the U.S. it will happen. Next the U.S is fastly losing out on being a world leader in manufacturing. People think they are to good to do a manufacturing job. People want a white collar job or a service job and want a large salary right away, they don't want to work for a company for years. I hate to tell you where Kenworth has been made for years, Canada and now they are also being built in Mexico also. My 1998 W900 Kenworth was built in Canada and my 2000 Pete was built in Mexico. I just looked at a 2008 Kenworth and it was built in Mexico.
Bobcat Excavators models 322-341 Skidsteer Compact track loader models 453-S330....Only ones that bring up and "Made in the USA" reference..........and they are still crap!!!!! :Banghead
They have a Kubota engine I think and I think they have a Linde Hydr. Pump. Both not made in the U.S.A.
Close enough.
I still think Cat products are the best around and believe these Cat Copies are not a threat to homeland production. In due respect, the licences that Cat sold were mainly whats known as obsolete production runs, eg, D7G, D6D and the advancement of technologies Cat are producing today are still years ahead of the Chinese. Still, in this day and age, Cat is a global player and sub contracts componants worldwide. I lifted the hood of a Mini Cat 360 excavator and found a Perkins built Cat engine! However, I mourn what has passed and will always miss names like International Harvester and Allis Chalmers as prime examples of two favorite Earthmover manufacturers. How I loved those TD`s and HD`s...sigh... I have to look at the Dressta site to see what has metermorphasised from the International TD range and the Allis HD memory is all but lost. Oh well, if thats progress, I will dwell on history. Regards, Dave:
I don't think Canada or Mexico pose much if any threat to the U.S. The biggest threat Mexico poses to us is hordes of hungry mexicans pouring into our country looking for work. If we bought everything from Mexico that we now buy from China, Mexicos economy would be fixed, and mexicans would stay in Mexico! Mexicans aren't COMMUNISTS either! From a transportation standpoint it makes more sense to buy from Mex. and Canada because they are geographically closer to us. As far as the U.S. sending MORE jobs out of country,to any country, that has more to do with workers and consumers than anything else. Me, as a consumer, I will do as much as I possibly can to keep jobs IN COUNTRY. :usa
I remember there was a Changlin dealer here in New Brunswick back in the 90's that was selling loaders that were identical to a Komatsu (just different name) and I think they were cummins powered. I hadn't been to the dealer but I do remember seeing a Changlin loader that was the size of a WA420 or 450. Not sure if the dealer still sells these or not.
Yeah theres one that advertises in the truck trader in NB or PEI, I know there are a couple changlin loaders floating around here.
Looked at china dozers about 97 shantui i think was the name, built Komatsu d 65-8 and d85-12s, Have a video someware, shows them in action on a large dam site, the 85s pulling pans . then shows the fsctoy and manufacture, factory set up by komatsu i think? lots of automatick machinery, but from memory the shots of workers no health and safety.The track plant was seperate all automated and came from germany. Some observations from workeding on china machinery over the years from ag tractors to scooters All look good when new , but give them a couple of years, they dont look so good. Electrical systems and switchgear are poor, paint and plastic fade quickly castings have got bbetter over the years and are less crude. bolts and nuts made of taffy, except the ones that brake off in a blind hole. the will have a lump in the middle that is super hard and will send the drill sidways into the casting. parts are cheap but they need to be when you have the gearbox apart to replace the gears and shafts they forgot to harden. The bigest thing to me is a d6d cat still fetches good money What is your china d6d going to be worth in five years time , if you can find a buyer?
The dealer at the time was Paul Equipment out of Balmoral NB, they are mostly a forestry equipment dealer, this company does advertise in the truck trader so it might be the one you seen. Paul's was selling Changling well over 10 years ago so they have been here for quite a while know.
Sino Cat D6 quality. Hi, Folks. Here are 3 photos of two gears out of the transmission of a Sino SD6 dozer which had the 'glorious' total of 800 hours on the clock at the time of this disintegration. The owner has had it repaired and it's for sale. Any takers?
I'll take it for it's weight in scrap - let's see, it weighs about 13 ton maybe? So that's about $90 p/ton = $1170, I'll give the owner $500 just for a good show of business!
I wonder if Harbor Tool will be handling them?
Deas Thats uuugly for only 800 hrs. The other question is, how long did he have to wait for the replacement parts on the slow boat from China?? My D-9R trans went 17,000 hrs before pre failure rebuild. If the Sino only makes 800, the cost per hour would be astronomical, even if the machine and parts were only 25% of the price of a Cat. I don't think many Chinese have figured out the heat treating process yet.
HA, Ill have to check my next catalog and give you a price on it.
From what I hear fisher price is thinking about buying this company out!!
DaveC-Perkins are owned by Cat. Now to the main theme of this thread-all the manufacturers are getting stuff built all over the world. Now I still prefer to buy from Cat and Liebherr etc because they have reputations to keep. The stuff may cost a little more but you are paying for quality. I started off with scrap,repairing it generally coaxing it along hoping it would not break down this week or the next. Now I run stuff that was bought new or in pretty decent shape,I make more money as a result(reduced downtime,no big parts bills or fitters wages),I have no intention of buying any of this chinese crap for I have no interest now at my time of life messing with crap soaked in oil sorting out someone else's poorly made and underdeveloped mess. I have a neighbour who two years ago bought two chinese built compactors-I remember calling at the yard one evening and they were stuck in one with the spanners flying. They had spent two days trying to get it started, the machines were fitted with chinese built copies of New Holland engines and had only a few hours on the clocks. The second machine was being used to roll hardcore when the driver noticed a funny smell, so they parked it and later sold it at an auction. Mind you this was after it blew a piston out through the block on its way to the ramp ending with it being pushed on by a loading shovel. Remember the old saying-You get what you pay for! Neil
Did you see this? Caterpillar Completes Acquisition of Shandong SEM Machinery Co., Ltd. - Chris
Here's their website, kind of interesting I guess, one loader looks just like a 938G and theres a backhoe loader that looks like a deere, not really a very big product line. There is some info on the site about there history with Cat since 2005. http://www.china-sg.com/en/index.asp
Has Anyone Run One? Has Anyone Seen One? Wonder If They Are Going The Komatsu Path When They Were Introduced During The Coal Boom. Jeff
I agree... Personally I think Bolt thrower is on the right track (pardon the pun :cool2 ) If Cat Or Komatsu didn't licencs them to the chinese they'd still make them. Many of our companies are in world courts now and in the past over copyright infringement etc. why? because designs have been copied and stolen and guess what? they don't want to pay these companies for their time and effort building these things. they want cheap equipment to go with their cheap labor and if the lose either one they don't have to worry. have another of each waiting in line. don't want to come across as a hater or anything but that is the way they do things there. :usa :usa
That is not a deal. A similarly equipped D7R is the same price
lol