I am in the market for a dozer for work on our own land and have found good deals on the 2 mentioned machines. Both have 3,000 and some odd hours and both are under 50k. Now my instinct tells me to go with the cat but people tell me that the deere will stick to and work on steep ground much better. The land I live on is very steep in far eastern ky and had alot of rock and sand stone I have to break out. I will be clearing brush building roads and making flats through out our 70 acres. I also have a deere 490E excavator Ill be working with it. resale value is of no concern to me. I like the joy stick steering the deer has and some one said that the D6 and down cats have the same steering joystick is this true? witch dozer sounds best for my needs? Ill be purchaseing in the next 2 weeks.
The D6 is more than likely a DiffSteer machine, it will turn by rotating the handle. I dont know if you can buy a lever steer D6R ?? I would buy Cat, it's a no-brainer for us as we dont have a good dealer support for anything else, and besides that.....it's a CaT how can you go wrong? Pj
Those are two different classes of machines. the deere is more comparable to a D6M or N model. ones hydrostatic and one has a torque conveter and a powershift transmission with a differential steer motor. Your going to get alot more work done with a 6R due just to size and power. check the conditon of your undecarriage really well. that can be an easy deal breaker on a dozer.
So none of the d6 models have hydrostatic steering? I am pretty sure they have 6-way blades right? At least the one i looked at liiks like it does.
Blades are options, you can get straight, semi u, angle or PAPT [6 way] on D6H,R,M,N models.The D6R XL diff steer I believe is the most stable machine on hills in all directions and it feels stable. They are reliable,fuel efficient easy to maintain parts service etc always good. I hate those 6 way blades as rocks always roll around under the tracks They are either Diff steer or finger tip steering. I would of clocked around 20,000 hrs on D6's most on hill country
a 6M,N is going to be lighter than a 6R,H. XL stands for Extra Long, and XW stands for Extra Wide both are talking about undercarriage. 6R is 45k and almost 200hp RITHCIE SPEC the 750 is 32k lb and 145 HP RITCHIE SPEC you can see that the 6N 145 hp and 34k. Is more comparable to the Deere than the 6R is Pj
the cat does have hydrostatic steering in a sense, the D6R uses the implement pump to run a hydraulic motor that has has pinion gear that is attached to a ring gear that is attached to a differential component that steers the machine by speedig up one track up to 50% faster than the other track. http://http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K4JhruinbWc fast forward to 2:10
I have spent abit of time on a 6N I find them a bit gutless and a bit light up front compaired to to the likes of the 140hp D6C,D miles better than JD I guess they designed for lighter work pushing out behind 30 ton dumper etc more of an uprated D5
Does the 750 sound large enough to do what I want? I have rented deere 650's several times and really like the pilot controls for the steering, It just didn't have enough hind end behind it to break out the sand stone. But it only weighs 20k where a 750 weighs 32k. your thought?
For land clearing, you'd want as much pushing power as possible, so I'd recommend the D6R over the 750. For ripping sandstone, the 750 might do but the D6R would be much better again. The D6Rs have diff steer and turn smoothly and effortlessly just like hydrostatic machines, but they have a torque converter/powershift transmission that is more durable and would outlast a hydrostatic drive.
"people tell me that the deere will stick to and work on steep ground much better." That's the truth. We run 850's and D6R's and T's side by side on some pretty steep slopes and the 850 is a more nimble machine, much more confidence-inspiring on steep terrain. The center of gravity is lower and the hydrostatic system makes it much more manuverable that the diff steer IMHO. But, you might need the weight and hp of the 6R to break up the rock, so...
I am a cat man but we also have 2 john deeres. I would choose a cat over a deere any day, But that being said a 6R for 50K would be on the low end and a 750c would be more on the middle to high end for 50k I looked at machinery trader a plain D6R average acution is $70900 and average askeing is about $114000 this is a strait 6r not a sireis 2 or 3 and not a xl or xw. The deere average auction is $26000 and average askeing is $51000 again a plain 750 c. Not taken into acount were wether they had cab or not or what blade they had or haveing a ripper or not. I do like the deere on steep ground as they will not role when shifting to forward or reverse and in tight places you can counter rotate the tracks if you need to but keep in mind this can shorten the life of th uc. I dont like 6 way blades for anything but finish work they wont hold up well for any clearing work and wont work well for grubing out rocks. You are not comparing apples to apples the cat is hands down a way bigger machine and probably better souted for your needs But also bigger machines cost more to work on. Good luck
Sorry I was looking at 750 C and you are looking at 750j the average auction for the j is $74000 and askeing is $136000 3000 hrs is not a lot of hours on either machine it looks like the price is well below average auction on both machines I would look very closely at both and take a mechanic with you 50k is a lot to spend and you could spend another 50k on either machine with a major engine and transmission problem.
You have the right thinking don't let anyone change it Cat is Caterpillar the makers of the D6R.
I forgot to mention the 750j is an LPG the wider tracks mean far more traction right?
Yes far more traction in wet soft conditions but less traction in hard rocky conditions and way shorter uc life we have a 750cll with a little over 4000 hrs and the uc is on run out a new berco uc was around $9500. If you look at dozers out west where there is a lot of rock notice they usualy have 22'' or 24'' shoes. Usualy a machine with 24''s will get 5 to 6k on the uc depending on the size. We got a 7R this summer with 3100 hrs and cat uc measurment was 60% remaining.
unless you work in a swampy area stay the hell away from LGP.. wider track means more leverage being imposed on the rails which means more twisting, dry joints and short undercarraige life especially on hard rough terrain.
If you have steep slopes, and need to push sideways on them, the 750 will be your best bet. The elevated sprocket, and the higher center of gravity of the 6R, will be an issue if you have to push sideways across a slope. They can become unstable and tip. Did you look into a D6K? You get a conventional undercarriage, VPAT, and LGP.
No that is wrong and misleading the D6H/R has a lower center gravity the sprockets are higher every other component is lower I had a early D6H the first year I worked with a D6D stick raking in forestry cut over on very steep hill country clambering over stumps dropping onto tracks,extreme work There is no comparison the 6H is more stable sideways it will out climb out back out push and out last all the other D6's and other brands It never ran hot like the others, a brilliant will balance machine capable of hard work. Cheers
Well sir, I believe we will just have to agree to disagree. I've never seen a dozer with a conventional undercarriage on its side, due to rolling over, but have seen more than a few elevated sprocket machines belly up.
I am currently running a d-6r with an oversized blade and the landfill package on 3 to 1 or steeper slopes all day in both sand and clay. It doesn't matter if I'm going perpendicular or parallel to the slope the machine just hangs on it! The machine has narrow gauge tracks but only about 2000 hours on them. I was a little leary of going over the edge when we first started the job because of the additional weight of the landfill package I felt we should be running a wide track, not so much any more. I have always been a Cat man but even more so now.
I own both D6R Cat and 750C Deere. Both are equip the same, and the 750 will work were the D6 will not. I know the 750 is smaller and will not push as much as the D6 but the 750 will hang on to a slope were the D6 will slide or worse yet I have had the upper track off the ground on the D6. I have had the 750 on a lot steeper grade than 3 to 1 and never had a problem with it. Each machine has it place but the D6 place is not on a steep slope, that is were the 750 shines.
there is more than one way to skin a CAT, and thier is more than one way to work a slope. you dont always have to work parallel with the toe unless maybe you are finishing slopes along a highway construction project. The point is for about 95% of the normal daily tasks of these dozers a D6R will shamefully outperfrom a 750.
I dont much care about production and what will bush more dirt in a strait line. I just need something to work steep ground and bust rock out of the road that a deere 650 wouldent even shake. It can come out in slabs for all I care I just want to get that sand stone out of my road. I think im sold on the 750j, I gave it a test run on the lot and the joy stick steering is just easyer for me to use than the cat steering. With the 750 being almost 14k lbs heaver than the 650 do you think it can bust sand stone out will the front end just lift and slide over it?
I will bet money it will rip that rock up!! you may have to rip it only a centimeter at a time and you might have to make 5 million passes and you might have to buy 10k ripper tips but I know with out a doubt in my heart she will do the job.....................eventually!! lol
You don't care about production? Don't kid yourself. The 750 would take forever ripping the rock and the even the little extra power of the D6R coupled with a torque converter would make it rip twice as fast with less fuel to do the job. Ripping rock is rather rough on a hydrostatic transmission, and the torque is somewhat limited compared to a powershift.
RKO, I agree with you 100%. I worked the slope in the pic with that D6R and it was real light on the upper track, to the point of being off the ground on more than one occasion. I "borrowed" an 850C from another operator one day and worked the same slope,and it hung on there just fine, no problem at all. Yellowmilitia, I agree with you that there is more than one way to approach a situation, but overall I'd still rather have a JD than a hi track Cat in steep terrain. It's not that I'm anti-Cat- I collect the older ones and appreciate their quality and engineering- I just like a Deere for slopes. Tommy, I think you would have been happy with either machine, but I'm glad you decided to go with the Deere.
They claim the torque converter and powershift only has an advantage right at stall. I dunno??? was pushing up material one day at a sand pit with a D6N and a 750j side by side. they were pretty comparable in the cut but when we started to climb the 750 seemed to lose a little steam.
I don't have enough experience on dozers to be certain, but hydro machines seem to have a slight advantage at medium speed earthmoving, but seem to act up and bog down in very slow heavy pushing. I'd imagine though that ripping rock would be hard on the pumps and hydraulic motors because of all the jerks and stop/starts as the rock cracks and gets ripped. I'd expect it to cause premature wear and failure of the hydraulic pumps and moors. For a finish dozing, I'd think hydrostatic drive would be fine because it is generally smooth and you normally aren't pushing the dozer to its stall limits. Once again, I am not a dozer operator, and so these are just my hypotheses and I may be wrong. The D6M that I tried for a bit seemed fine on slopes, but I can imagine that a low drive tractor would have a somewhat lower centre of gravity. Get whatever you want tommy1984, but I can't see why production won't matter unless the job is too small to justify buying a recent dozer in the first place. Also, I wouldn't dismiss the D6R for its steering, I'd suggest you give it another try and see if you can get used to it. I do know for a fact that every bit of force is very important when land clearing and breaking rock, so keep that in mind. Still, if your slopes are so steep that a high drive machine may tip, then I guess it may be safer to go with a low drive unit. P.S. The $50k price sounds oddly low for a D6R or a 750J. Be extra thorough when inspecting the machines.
Dont forget that CAT is more expencive to run than any one else's dozer the high drive has more u/c to replace not to mention some cat parts are priced high if ur not to concerned about production i would bet on the 750 i have a 850c with 9000hrs and it is still solid machine. Is the 6R realy compareable to a 750? I always thought that the 6R was about the same as an 850
I think a 6R and a 850J are about the same weight. But the dealer I found these extremely good deals with doesn't have a 850 right now. To be honest maybe I shouldn't have made such a bid deal of the sand stone. It will only be an issue about 15% of the time.
When the high drives came out, Cat issued releases that explained how the major components sat lower than on the previous machines, and showed the c of g was very slightly lower. It's been covered here before, but most people think a side-slope is steeper than it actually is, measured by the backside in the operator's seat. I've seen a 6H and 6N work along a measured 45 degree (1 in 1) without the top track coming off the ground.
Most people dont mention if they were on a standard track, XL or XW or LGP when talking about slope work
I never saw wether the deere had a 6 way blade or not if it does it wont be good at all for rock and the lgp would be even worse for rock. A 13' blade is standerd on 750 lgp machines with 6 way that is a lot of stress on tilt and lift cylinders. I am not telling you to buy a cat but I would advise you to buy a machine that is set up the way you need it. I still think the price is a lot low on both machines there are a lot of shady fly by night dealers out there so if you are not mechanicaly inclined or new to heavy equiptment I would hire a third party mechanic to look very closely at any machine you are goeing to purchase. I would also get a 30 parts and labor warranty just to keep the dealer honest. I have used this in the past as a deal breaker when dickering on machines.
One more thing I was just looking back and you started a post back in november of last year that was very similar to this one and everyone advised you to stay away from lgp machines Looks like everyone is still giveing the same advise and you keep askeing the same question.
Yeah I had forgot all about that post. And I am now getting ready to buy so I started a new on. I am going to stay away from LPG thanks.
Standard on the "H", XL on the "N". Plus a mixture of standard, wide or long on various other machines. I've lost count a bit. A good lot of people don't know what angle they've actually been on. One guy I know claimed to have driven along an almost vertical slope - someone who'd been with him said it was nearer 30degrees. Slopes, or batters as we call them here, were my bread and butter for a long time. I've had both tracks sit rock solid when battering clay at 40 degrees, then slid sideways from top to bottom pushing topsoil over the same bank. I've seen operators lift the top track at 35 degrees by going too fast or hitting rocks or buried concrete. It's not so much the angle as how you deal with it. My Dad worked on the land, and I remember seeing him drive a TD18 from one field to the next along the bank of a drainage ditch so's to not damage the road or load onto a trailer. In this part of England the ditches are generally dug as a narrow "Vee" with banks as steep as 50 degrees. Our farmers are too mean to give up more land than necessary. This particular ditch wasn't quite that steep, and I only saw him do it the once.
It sounds like you need a good 750J LT with a semi- U (or a 6-way)and ripper. And depending on how much clearing a root rake. And to me any kind of weight on there like a ripper or winch makes the dozer feel better. But would bother if you didn't either. What % of the time would you be doing what tommy? And i will edit your dozer. And have you run both blade styles??
Hey deere man. I would say I would be pushing trees over with the excavator so none of that with the dozer. Id be piling the trees and brush up maybe 10% of the time, making large flats maybe 25% of the time, Building/maintenance on roads about 40% and the other 20% will be spread between all other areas of work around the farm. For got to mention that we are going to build a pond or 2 of 1/2 acre or maybe a little larger. I have only ran a 6-way blade dozer but in my limited experience it seems like you can keep a road more lever with them because if it starts leaning one way you can adjust???
you will have to judge,customer service will sell, don't let Catitis get to you there. go to cat and ask if they will give you the information on how to calibrate the transmission after changing a speed sensor. do it with a cold call no information about yourself, Ask cat about how many hours before it will need a final drive rebuild, or a pump find out the price on several parts then compare them to deere. They only build them for so many hours not for as long as they can get out of them. yes i am a deere man i work for deere and major componets are something we do not have an issue with. Only problem you might see with the 750j is injectors and that depends on the fuel quaility used only use co-op if available.
tommy if your looking for a 750j in the 50K range its going to be eat up in hours or hard to find in that price range. Most i have found have been in the 3 and 4K hour range and between 56-75K price range,open cab, plain jane deals. But have found some decent deals on 700J's. I know you've got hooked on the 750 but the 700 maybe do what your needing. What ya think? Have you run one of them?
I have considered a 700 but Im not so sure it can handle the sand stone in the roads. Remember, I had a 650 in there and all it would do is slide over them, It just didn't have enough weight/power to it. How much differences is between a 700 and 750?
The 700 is alot more machine then the 650 but not quite a 750. It will nearly push right with the 750. The 750 has 30 more horse power and 9K heaiver. Both have the same 6068 engin3e in them. I prefer a 750 but the 700 aint bad. Just go try one out. You might be suprised. Either way you can't go wrong with a Deere!!:notworthy