I just bought a 17a and i am going to change all the fluids when i get it to the house. I have delt with diesels so in my head 15-40 is the oil to use but everything im finding about fluids is they used 30w in them in the day so what will it do to change over or should i use 30w
I recommend you stick with SAE30 or even SAE40 in a tired engine. Use TO-4 30wt in the oil clutch and steering clutches if they are oil type. There is nothing in these old units that require thinner oil and the viscosity modifiers do nothing.
The 17a main clutch is an oil type, not sure about the steering clutches. These dozens have hydraulic assist on the clutches, so SAE 30 or 30 weight hydraulic oil will work fine in there. You should be able to use regular 80-90 gear oil in the finals and transmission if it has dry steering clutches. If you decide to go ahead and use 15-40 in the engine, you are going to want to keep an eye on the oil color as the detergent will pick up a lot of sludge if it only had sae 30 in the past.
TDTO-50 in the finals, IMO
I just checked the service manual, the 17A has dry steering clutches. The main clutch does not have a filter, but it does have an inlet screen near the drain plug that might be worth taking a peek at, to make sure it's not clogged. Don't forget to look at the fuel filters while you are at it. They tend to get neglected because the housing they are in is rather unassuming-looking.
Ok so whats the difference between to30 and tdto30 i have read a few things saying to use that in the transmission the final drives and the clutches but use straight 30w in the engine and what about the inj pump housing? And i also heard to run diesel threw the motor to flush it
Full nomenclature is TDTO, TO-4 specification. TDTO= transmission drive train oil, TO-4 is latest specification To be used where there a clutches as regular motor or gear/hydraulic oil is now considered to slick and will result in clutch slippage. Comes in various weights.
TDTO is a trademark for Cat branded transmission oil. Other oil brands are marked as meeting Cat TO-4 specs. Bob
This message was suppost to be with that. I will be honest i have read so many different things to use like 30w hydraulic and 80-90 gear oil in finals. so can you break it down and tell me what u would use in what part
What kind of oil goes in the inj pump housing and the hydraulic fluid?
Maybe the best thing you could do would be to get a manual for it. That would enable you to see what Cat originally specified as lubricants in the various compartments based on ambient temperature. Today's oils may be somewhat different to what was current when your tractor was built, but at least knowing what the OEM recommendation is you would be able to ask "what's the modern equivalent of XXX for use in the (insert system here) of my 17A-prefix D7.?" Old Magnet might be able to assist you in sourcing a manual - or try this one from Amazon. The price is in the ball park. Manuals for newer machines run about $55-60 for a paper version. https://www.amazon.com/Caterpillar-Crawler-Operators-Manual-17A/dp/B007HO3LBW
motor oil in injection pump what ever hyd oil. Bob
For mild climate SAE30 or SAE40 Diesel Engine Detergent motor oil in: Main Engine, Starting Engine and Transmission, Injection pump, oil bath air cleaner and steering booster. Cat or equivalent TDTO TO-4 Spec SAE30 in the oil clutch 90wt gear oil in main transmission a final drives. ISO-32 hydraulic oil or 10W motor oil in the hydraulic system, or for worn system maximum ISO-46 or SAE20 motor oil
TDTO is Cat branded oil it is a trade mark. that means the only people who sells TDTO is Caterpillar Bob
There are TDTO equivalents out there......
Apparently you have never seen a bucket of Cat oil. I believe the chevron oil used to be labeled DTO oil . They are not TDTO equivalents but are TO-4 spec oils. Bob
Glad to see we have a Lubrication Engineer expert on board.
I haven't been a lube engineer for about 20 years and I bet I've spilled more oil than you have ever changed on Cat machines ,and I do know what a trade mark is. Bob
My mistake, I was referring to a bonified Petroleum/Lubrication Engineer not some grease monkey.
Ok so old magnet has posted what he thinks is best to use in the machine so you give me a break down of what you think is best
The last part you said for worn systems, do you mean the motor or hydraulic system
If you can find out what the machine has in it now would be best bet because when people change to a different oil they can get in trouble. Bob
So you agree with what he says to use or u got a different opinion
So you don't know what's in the machine? Lets start over what are you going to use the tractor for? What temperatures are you going run at . If the oils in the machine is not contaminated I would run it a while to find leaks and other problems . Bob
No i do not know whats in the machine but i also read where they said to run diesel or kerosene threw everything to flush it I live in oklahoma, i dont plan on running in freezing or 100 degree weather unless i have to Im planning on pushing brush with it on the farm It has been sitting for 2 or 3 years
What is the difference in using the 30w diesel oil vs the 15-40 diesel oil
The main difference is multiweight will flow better on startup and colder weather. I think monograde may not have detergent in it, but that's something you would have to confirm from the supplier.
Some may find this interesting reading https://www.penriteoil.com.au/knowledge-centre/Specifications/194/api-service-classifications/363
Well i was calling the main oil supplier here and they was trying to switch me to 15-40 which i know is what all diesels use now but just trying to get an opinion
Many engines of the era when your D7 was built do not respond well to an oil that contains a complex detergent package. Generally monograde oils do not have that package, modern multi-grade oils certainly do. There is the difference. I suggest that you investigate for a suitable oil based on the answer to the above. I’ll be honest and say I’m not sure if that particular model engine will work with a detergent package or not.
Doesnt a straight 30w diesel engine oil have detergent
First there is no such thing as a 30W oil. Common monograde engine oils are usually either SAE30 or SAE40. There are monograde non-detergent oils available. There are also monograde oils with a detergent package. Current multigrade engine oils tend to have a more aggressive (& complex) detergent package to enable them to cope with the by-products of combustion in current-generation emissions-rated engines. Interesting article - https://www.lubesngreases.com/magazine/who-needs-monograde-engine-oils/
Here's the original oil specs for that unit. Diesel Engine oil is detergent type and it has the full flow oil filters that are associated with detergent oils. The only thing I'd change is TDTO for the oil clutch. Modern oils are deemed to slippery for clutch applications. Multi-grade oils have a high percentage of polymers that change the viscosity with temperature but they do nothing for lubrication other than this feature. Bearings on these units are high clearance and are better off with the higher viscosity oils unless your dealing with very low temperatures. Older well worn units can take advantage of running the SAE40 in mild climates and is probably closer to the original SAE30 mineral based oils. Also attached is a list of Chevron products for Caterpillar.
Ok so is this normal, i filled it with water this morning when i got there and started sounding like hissing on the block somewhere and after tbe truck got there and hauled it home i ran it enough to get it off the trailer and parked it and the coolant system is pressurized is that normal?
The water isnt hot it just sprays out after its opened i really hope u tell me thats normal
The radiator has a combination pressure/vacuum relief valve. Valve should open at 6 psi pressure or 1 psi vacuum. Over filling will cause the valve to open as the water expands with temperature. This all works if the pressure relief valve is working and many do not as they have passages that clog up with rust or crud. Worst case scenario involves compression leaks into the cooling system, either from leaking head gasket or cracks in cylinder head or block. Can usually be determined by observing bubbles at the radiator filler neck while running. Outflow without bubbles could also be caused by clogged radiator passages or stuck temperature regulator observed while engine is running.
Ok so while ots running see if it bubbles? If radiator is clogged or regulator how do i go about it?
Time to get yourself a service manual. An infra red thermometer gun is your friend. Check temperatures before and after the thermostat housing and top and bottom of the radiator. If the temperature regulator is stuck or not operating it needs to be removed to check its operation in boiling water. Radiators of that vintage most likely will need to be removed and have the tubes rodded out if flow is restricted.
If you filled the radiator completely full and run it when you open the cap it will puke out water ,radiator should only be filled 2" below top cold. Bob
Which oil does dealer recommend ?, a 15-40 heavy duty oil for mixed fleets will work for your engine in fact if it meets TO-2 specs it will work just fine in your clutch. Bob
i just ended up buying a a 30w diesel engine oil since alot of people recommend and it says it in the manual and everyone said to go with a to4 30w. My oil supplier her said on the trans and finals to use a gl1 90w, the cat dealer cant even look up what is recommended in one that old
Ok so i filled it with water again today and started it with the cap off no bubbles but it was pushing water out so i went ahead a put cap on and ran it for a while and when i finished i idled it down for a while and it started smoking before i killed it
Did i get it to hot or what?
Is English your first language? Your stories lack any kind of helpful information. Bob
Please explain how its lacking? The radiator has been building pressure and old magnet or someone told me to check for bubbles to know if the head gasket is bad or head is cracked it would have bubbles, it didn't but it was still building some pressure but i went ahead and put the cap back on. After i ran it for awhile i put it at a idle for a bit and was getting ready to kill it and it started to white smoke some so im asking if that's normal or what would be wrong
White smoke and coolant pushing out doesn’t sound too good. Does it have two heads? If so, a cracked head is only half as bad as it would be on more modern engines, obviously. And I’ve seen them welded for repair. 17A is getting to the point where anyone who remembers how to work on it is dead. American Crane might be able to get some parts for it, but truthfully the 47A and 48A are about as far back as any meaningful support goes. The antique type clubs might be of some help to you. Good luck! And you did the right thing with plain old SAE 30 wt diesel oil. I’m surprised you were able to find any.
Did you run any temperature checks on the cooling system as instructed? White smoke can have several causes.
No i haven't ran a temp check yet but i plan on it next time i run it any. But the other day i finally got a chance to mess with it and drained a bunch of water out of the filter system and ran in for about 5 min and it cleared up for now. I have a manual now and it talks about running diesel or kerosene in the finals and trans to flush them. What is your opinion
Nothing wrong with the flushing procedure, good place to start with an unknown history of the machine.
Ok if used the diesel to flush it would i be able to put new oil in it and be good or would i have to change it again after running it for a while to get the rest of the diesel out
Just let the diesel fully drain and your good to go for refill with new oils.
Thank you old magnet. Im not 100% sure where the thermostat is on this
There are actually two thermostats (regulators) side by side in the water manifold. Should show in your service manual.
I have run it a few times amd i have started to notice the final drive is starting to leak on the out side of the sprocket. I read part where it talks about adjust that but not what to do if its leaking
Adjustment may help with the leakage. If not it's a major repair to change the seals. If it's not leaking bad I'd suggest living with it, keep an eye on oil level until it gets really bad.
Is there a seal on the outer side of the sprocket?
There is a seal on both sides of the sprocket.
There is nothing in the manual about them so how exactly do you fix the out side seal or would that even fix it?
What manual do you have? Procedure is well defined in the 17A Service Manual.
I think its just a service manual. It tells ne how to adjust it but not anything about the seal. And where would a person come up with the tool to adjust the big ring
Look up OTC adjustable hook spanner. Outer big nut can also be tightened with a hammer and brass punch My service manual has plenty of detail on dealing with final drive seals.
Mine does not amd i havent been able to find any pictures or anything about it online like another manual
If you can post any pictures it would be much appreciated
Do you have an original 17A Service Manual? The one I have has a final drive section issued in 1964 and shows the dual cone seals. Earlier versions should show the bellows type seals. Seems your version is missing material.
I lied mine is just a operator's manual
I appreciate all the help, i also wanted to ask about what it takes to oil the front idlers, i know ir says to use 30w and it has the button heads on it but wat does it take to pump the oil into it.
Those take grease . Bob
In the book it says 30w oil and everything i read says to used 30unless the seals are bad then to use grease
If it has a Alimite fitting it takes grease, Some say corn head grease I would use a #1 grease. Bob
It has a button head fitting the end is about the size of a nickel
The button head fittings use "0" grade grease, otherwise known as "corn head grease" pumped in with a low pressure high volume bucket pump. These pumps are low pressure where you can feel the resistance when filling so as not to blow the seals.
Corn head grease I think is closer to OO grade but not compatible with some other greases. There's a name they call it that basically it's semi-solid at rest and turns to liquid when in motion. Goes back to semi-solid when movement stops. I had a leaking roller and not knowing what it came with ordered a tube of OO grease. The JD corn head grease is highly regarding for stopping leaks though. It comes in tubes for $6-$7 bucks Cad. so you don't have to buy a lot.
"0" grade also known as track and roller lube. If you put it in a regular grease gun be careful not to blow the seals from excess pressure.
Thixotropic is the word I was thinking of. I don't know if there's a lot of difference between OO and O grade grease? I think they're both basically pourable grease but also thixotropic. I read the JD corn head grease didn't mix with some other lubes. It was OK to use if you knew what the original lube was or had all the old lube washed out. That's what I was going to use until I read what's at the bottom of this post. This is what I ordered from Napa. You can also get grade OOO grease. BPXE-A56UZ2.pdf (castrol.com) Polyurea based grease should not be mixed with oil as they are incompatible (JD cornhead grease is Polyurea based).
Here's how they compare......
I got to messing with ot the other day before i seen this and ended up putting #2 grease in it but im going to get the 0 like old magnet said. If i pump it out the back with the new stuff be ok or do i need to flush it with something
There is no provision to flush and attempt to do so will blow the seals if that hasn't happened already. The bushings have pockets where grease won't flow , that's why a fluid type lubricant is used. It apparently is not recommended to mix other lubes with the "0" type "corn head grease". I'd say your stuck with using grease the best you can unless you want to dismantle, clean and start over.
"It apparently is not recommended to mix other lubes with the "0" type "corn head grease". After I read this is why I went with the OO grade grease. I figured if it helps seal truck hubs it should work for rollers and is compatible with other oils/greases. I think some OO grease would thin out #2 grease somewhat.
What i was talking about by flushiing is pulling the cap out from the other side of the front idler and pumping all the stuff i put in it out the back side. I put #2 grease in it and rand it for about an hr thats it. But im assuming since i done that i should use 00 grease or just use what i put it it?
There is no way that you can flush out the lube retaining cavities. Just go with the grease you used for now. Any grease is better than no grease.
Does the 00 grease come in a tube for grease gun or in a squeeze tube
Tube similar to a grease gun tube but has a nozzle with plastic cap on the end. I think using with a grease gun would be too much pressure and blow seals out. Seems to me I used a hammer handle or piece of wood to push the plunger up the tube.
Are you able to some how get me a picture. I havent been able to find it anywhere online and no one knows what im talking about
Like a caulking tube. Castrol Speeroil 00 or similar. You'll have to do some looking on your own. I'm dealing with cancer treatment right now.
Oh crap im sorry
No problem. Hate trying to look stuff up on a stupid phone. Computer is easier to copy a link.
Right
How do you drain the hydraulic fluid and also the blade is bleeding off is there something i can do to fix that
When you say bleeding off, do you mean the blade leaks down? If so, it either means an issue with the valve or the hydraulic cyilinder piston packings.
The blade leaks down and neither cylinder is leaking so i figure its the valve
The blade leaks down and neither cylinder is leaking so i figure its the valve
(FYI) I have a D7 (17A8715) I wanted to let you know of an issue I had with the pony engine, it has a screen in the pan that strains the oil before the oil pump, someone had put some type of cloth under the screen apparently to catch more fine particles, which it did.However there is no way to change it ,when it became clogged, without removing the pony. Anyway I was unaware of the cloth being there, and starved the pump/pony engine of oil even though the dipstick said it was full. The book shows only the screen, I don’t know if this cloth addition was a one off with my unit , or if it was in fashion at one time. I removed the screen and added a spin on oil filter so that I can remove the debris with the filter, instead of needing to remove the pony to service the screen. The wider pic shows the rectangular opening where the screen went, the close up shows the spinon adapter with the oil feed tube to the pump galley. I believe I added pics of this
Also I believe I have added the operator manual.
Mine doesn't have a pony motor so im a little confused on what exactly your talking about
If you have the electric start diesel and no pony motor it will not matter to you.
Can someone tell me where the thermostats are located and how to change the hydraulic fluid
before you get carried away with the thermostats put a flush through the cooling system It should tell you what to do in the manual From memory i think it is 2 and 1/2 kg of washing soda and about 5 liters of Kero then fill with water run form 20 to 30 mins then drain dont forget to drain the water jacket - plug on the left side of engine block above the ID plate Did this with both of my 17As and it did wonders need to flush a couple of times afterwards all sorts of crap came out The hydraulic tank does not have a sump plug not sure why but all the blades on the old girls sink a bit now days the tank is easy enough to take off if you wish to pour the oil out of the filler cap the drive shaft just slips on and off the spline take both grills off disconnect all 4 hydraulic fittings take note of where they go as well as the control lever the rest is simple
There are two drain plugs under the #46 hydraulic control tank. (actually two-bolt covers/magnetic)
Oh crumbs yes your very right on that one OM mine unfortunately have had the bottoms ripped out at some stage and been rebuilt but they never put the pugs back in
Can you explain what you meant by washing soda and kero
What is your opinion of what he said on flushing the radiator and where is the thermostat i wanted to make sure that are is clean and not all rusted up
Kerosene not sure what it is called on your side of the world and Washing soda, aka sodium carbonate
Thermostat removal from the manual
the last bit
Thank you i appreciate the pictures i had a feeling that was it but i wasnt really sure. And i wasn't sure if you meant kerosene or something else, does it talk about flushing the coolant system in that manual
Thermostats seldom rust up, the Wax Bulb eventually fails internally as the operating media or seals fail and they coolant short cycles cold, seldom to the value of overheat. Choked internally and externally are the brutal events on HE. Net result of a small oil seep and pusher style fan operation.
How do these come out?
The gasket is holding them in stump powder usually works . Bob
How is ir holding them in? And what do you mean by stump powder?
LoL
??
If you use ditching powder it might blow the center out of them! Bob
As noted peel the gasket, has to be replaced anyway. Thermostats are usually fairly well age stuck in the bores but a little coaxing tapping around the edge with a small screwdriver and hammer and they will likely come out.
The key takeaway of the Stump Powder is Old School blast them out ribbing.
I just wanted to take them out and make sure they worked properly or should i even mess with that?
You've got this far, you might as well take them out. If they work OK it will only cost you a new gasket because there is no way you will get the old one off without breaking it.
Well is the gold and silver cap the thermostat? Or just the silver i cant get them out
The brass is the actual body where the stainless is the valve of the thermostat Just work around them until move and pry out, buy two replacements if kink or bend them.
Ok so i opened the cap to the radiator when i started it and there is bubbles coming up, does that mean head gasket? It doesnt get hot or anything
Should be head gasket or crack head
Injector cup seat seals
Does anyone have any pictures or videos of head gasket being done
Time to buy a service manual.