Well my project keeps on growing. Putting things back together I noticed the fan belts were definitely showing their age so I yanked them out this afternoon. Decided I better check the bearings while I was there and sure enough there’s some movement on the fan. Was getting dark in the shop and didn’t have anyone else there to watch but assume it’s play in the bearings. Wondering which route is the easiest to pull the fan. Service manuals shows it coming out the top but I assume with the cylinders and cylinder support in the way that’s not a option which leads me to my question. Which is the easiest way to remove the fan, pull the rad or take the cylinders off? I’d assume pulling the rad is easier especially as it’s already drained but thought I’d ask the experts and see what everyone had to say. The joys of old iron, the gift that keeps on giving lol.
It’s not a big job actually. Remove the actual fan blade and let it rest against the radiator fins. Then you remove the big bolts that hold the entire fan hub application to the block.It’s a finger trapper and a knuckle rash job,but not too bad. Then you can replace the bearings etc and clean the shaft up on the work bench before building it back up again. It’s a pain of a job,but don’t remove the rams etc or the radiator. However,it’s a very good opportunity to remove the rad and give it a thorough cleaning as that’s the best maintenance you can give an older tractor.It also allows you repair the fan hub in situ and replace any pulleys and belts. They are readily available non oem and quite cheap,allthough I allways stick to Cat fan belts
Thanks I’ll give it a try and see if I can fit my gorilla hands in there lol. Might shed a few pounds of skin but if I can get it out that way would be simpler. Was thinking about it more last night and to pull the rad I’d have to pull the canopy off the cat as well I think not sure there’s be enough room to bring the rad up and out towards the front without damaging it. The limb risers are welded solid to the back canopy so that would add extra work again plus I can’t take it off inside the shop.
Thin leather gloves are your best friend when working near rad cores and other skin shedding components.
I never thought of that. Good idea
It appears that I’m not able to remove the fan towards the rad. It sits on a shoulder in between the fan mount and the pulley near as I can tell. Unless I misunderstood your directions I don’t think I’m able to remove it as you described. The shaft I believe is mounted to the cross brace inside the rad shroud.
This is a little later serial number but same design.
Pulley grooves look very worn, .Did the same thing on a D7E yrs ago was 23yrs old at the time. One thing going for me it had a Cable Blade, still a miserable job
The straight fan is easy as it comes out in two pieces and then the hub. but I think you may have to take the lift cylinder tube out so you can pull the fan hub and reversable fan in one wad. Bob
PF/I,I apologise sir. After looking at your pics,I see you have a reversible fan.I’ve never had one on my tractors and no experience of them whatsoever. I suppose the radiator is coming out then.Well,if that’s the case,you get chance to give it a proper clean and replace the pulleys if you think they are badly worn.Sometimes,a set of new Cat belts will tolerate worn pulleys,but the pulleys are really quite cheap to buy from non Cat suppliers over in the UK. Good luck and I hope you don’t have to gaff about with that cross tube lump.
No worries,you had me hoping there for a bit lol. Was hoping there was a shortcut I was maybe missing but unfortunately sounds like my gut was right. I think I’ll try pulling the cylinders and cross tube first as I can do that in the shop without pulling the canopy. If it was summertime I’d roll it outside and pull the canopy off and pull the rad. It’s hovering around that -20°F( -28°C) Had warmed up to almost 0°F(-18°C)the last couple afternoons but still a bit chilly to be pulling wrenches outside lol. I was trying to look for pulleys last night just out of curiosity and couldn’t find anything that crossed up from the old part numbers in the manuals. Said contact dealer for indirect replacement so I’ll have to call cat and see what that’s all about I guess.
That sure would’ve been a lot easier if it had the straight fan. I do like have the reversible fan though so I guess I’ll have to put up with a bit of extra work. Looked up the bearings last night and I think I have them on hand here. Don’t have the seal though I don’t think.
They’re pretty polished for sure. I have actually ran my fingertips down them to see how grooved they are. Who ever put belts on last time threw a set of v belts on. C74, I could still make out the numbers on the one. Matches up in length with the cat belts but they are a touch wider. Not the correct belt but they have been on there for years and with proper tension I suppose would get a guy by. Napa didn’t have the belts in their warehouse but cat is a day away. 183$ cdn though.
Pulleys are quite worn as bccat said. I haven’t been able to locate any online or through cat yet though so they might have to do. part numbers I think are 3s8415-fan pulley(confirmed with the numbers on the pulley) 4s6837-crank pulley(unverified just going by sn.) 3s5036 or 7m7589 not sure which it is. Both parts diagrams look the same but have different numbers. Don’t have it off yet to verify. All these numbers come up in the cat system but say indirect replacement available call dealer. Called dealer this afternoon though and they were a little clueless. I did see one listed online for 353$ can’t remember which one it was now. Saw one used one in Australia as well.
So you dont have to pull the cross tube. Loosen the bolts but keep the nuts on a couple threads for safety. Use the blade hyd to push the tube up and back out of the way. Worked on my D6C enough so I could get the assy out. If your bolts aren't long enough and interference isn't a problem with other components 4pcs of threaded rod will suffice also.
You could have your pulley grooves re-machined if there is enough material under the bottom of the grooves although it may require shorter belts after. I have used that trick a couple times if a new pulley has not been available
Thanks for the suggestion I’ll take a look at it and see if that might work in my case. My first thought is I’d be a little concerned about bending the bolts as I think it needs to move back about a foot to get it out. Being I don’t have the blade on I’d have to block up the c frame to get enough stroke from the cylinders as well. Will take a look though anyways and see if there’s any reason it wouldn’t work.
My brother is a machinist so I’ll have him take a look at them if he makes it out for Christmas. Not sure yet if I can get the crank pulley out with the rad still in place or not so not sure if I can fully address the issue or not.
You’ll need the radiator out to do the crank pulley in my opinion.I’ve had a few D8 crank pulleys out over the years and I’ve allways removed the rad,allthough I once left it halfway out as I was by myself with no crane. It’s a good time to reseal the crank seal and take a good look at things
Bit of a update. Fan is out and apart. Bad news is there’s nothing wrong with the bearings. Simone has had the bearings go out years ago and threw it back together with new ones. Kind of wondered as it spun nice and smooth and didn’t seem like a bearing issues in a way. Thinking I’ll get the shaft built up and re machined. Fp smith showed new ones available and the company that sent my oil cooler showed inventory as well. Nothing through cat. My part numbers don’t match the book but it’s awful close. 3s2121 is what the book shows and mine is 3s2119. Could simply be a misprint years ago. A lot of the other numbers I checked matched. Was a horrible job getting it apparat but wasn’t exactly fun either. Once I got going on it, it went not bad though. Everything came apart pretty good thankfully.
You're effectively talking about the same thing. 3S-2121 is the Part Number for the Shaft Assembly. The 3S-2121 Assembly is made up of a 3S-2119 Shaft plus an 8H-9208 Dowel.
Hi. It could be my eyes,but that shaft looks buggered to me?? I’d say you’ve caught all that at the absolute right time and avoided a fair old catastrophe! You’re right about the shaft.Get it built up with all new bearings and seal etc and replace those little bolts with CAT bolts that keep that plate on. Nice to see the progress sir.
Good to know on the part numbers guys thanks. I think part of the issue may be the spacer that goes in between as well. I haven’t cleaned it up yet but suspect it was hurt when the previous bearings went out and they made up pieces to sort of fit. There is a extra little shim up against the inside of the front bearing that is not in any of the parts diagrams and the spacer I think fits quite loosely on the shaft. If they didn’t get the length correct it’s possible that it didn’t get tightened in properly and amplified the wobble issue causing more wear on the shaft. Brother the machinist is hopefully coming out on Sunday so we’ll make some decisions then. Sure wish it wasn’t such a pain to order parts from the states. Mail is horribly slow now and the couriers are charging some awful brokerage fees from what I’ve heard. I live in the country too which complicates couriers further.
That brush canopy looks almost identical to the one on my 46a with some minor exceptions. I wonder if the same guy fabricated it, it is so close. The type of mounts and the way the reinforcements are is virtually identical. Just a couple pointers about your fan blade assembly. Now is a good time to check for any cracks through the blades around the rivets where they are riveted to the shanks. You have to check very carefully. Also, now is a good time to straighten any blades that are bent. If your fan is the reversible type it should be disassembled and the little springs in the ends of the shanks cleaned and lubed as well as the shanks cleaned if they are sticking or seized. On my 46a the springs were NLA from CAT so i had to very careful with them. My 46a threw a fan blade once out in the bush and it made a small nick in the rad which i was able to repair while the fan was out. The fan blade was all crumpled up but i had to straighten and weld it because a new one was NLA for that particular fan. Then i had to re-rivet it to the shank. I found a couple more that were starting to crack around the rivets, so i cut the rivets, removed the blades from the shanks, repaired them and then re-riveted them back on. Then, i put the whole assembly with the hub on a bench top and spun it so i could check for any mis-aligned blades and correct as necessary. Then carted the whole works back out into the bush and snow where it broke down. That was a miserable job. I got my brother to help me. When it threw the blade, it really started to shake so i shut it down immediately. I think i remember starting the pup engine to spin it over for a few minutes to pump oil through the hot turbo to help it cool down. That was about 35 years ago and its still running.
The canopy is a production built one I believe but I have no idea who made it. No names on it anywhere. It’s not a ridgid mount on the front, those rubber blocks are molded around the 4x4 tubing and it fits overtop another piece of square tubing so that there’s a bit of give to it. Back is mounted rigid of course. Thanks for the tips on the fan. I’ll clean it up and inspect. That definitely doesn’t sound like a fun repair out in the bush.
I always wished my canopy was a ROPS but for bush work mine works ok because its wider at the rear, so it gives more protection from falling branches without having to run sidescreens. The downside is that it would fold up like cardboard if i ever rolled it
Is the Part Number of the original spacer 5M-5957.? I could probably find the measurements for it if your machinist friend wanted to manufacture a new replacement.
That’s what my parts diagram shows yes. If by chance you had measurements that would be great. I cleaned it up yesterday and there’s no damage to it but I don’t think they got the spacing correct the bearing does not sit flush with the shaft so when you tighten the washer/cap down with those 2 small bolts it bends the cap inwards slightly. It appears they just used some random 1.5” diameter pipe with a slightly larger inside diameter then the of of the shaft as it fits loosely on there. Wasn’t quite long enough so they cut a extra shim to put in place but in turn made it a 1/8” or so to long. Pretty sure I have some 1.5” shafting that I can drill out and bore to size and the correct length.
Mine is screened in on the sides and the back. Definitely saved me from a few slaps in the face over the years lol. Even on our skiddder as caged in as it is I’ve been smacked a few times. Worst one was when I was backing up limbing a tree. A small top off another tree kicked up and started to pin my foot to the throttle. I reacted quick enough and threw the skidder back into forward and drove away before I got hurt though thankfully.
I wasn't sure if that was a trick of the photo or not. Let me see what I can do about measurements. TBH I agree with what Nicky68a posted above that the original shaft looks foobarbed. I'd personally go for a replacement shaft, spacer, and whatever else it needed such as the bearing end cover and especially new Grade 8 bolts if you are not going to use genuine Cat bolts.
The bearing is supposed to be a little proud on the shaft and the two bolts should have a lock plate on them. The plate holds the bearing races against the spacer so they don't move on the shaft. You are tightening the bolts too tight just torque them and set the lock tabs. Bob
Agree just took another look at the picture of the shaft: There appears to be a gap between the bearing and the shaft and on the upper end something like1/16 inch wear on the shaft where the outer bearing would locate!
The gap around the bearing that you can see is actually the shim that they added to make up the difference in the spacer that they made. The bottom bearing certainly isn’t a press fit any more but it doesn’t slide off in your finger tips either. The top of the shaft measures .028” out of round. It is a bit deceiving in the picture. Still not good either way though.
Unless I'm missing it somewhere on SIS it looks like the shaft 5M5957 is no longer available, at least from Cat. If it was mine and I had a good friend with a lathe who knew how to run it. I would chuck that shaft in the lathe and cut down the last inch or so of it maybe 1/8 inch then make a sleeve to press on it then have friend turn it down to the original shaft diameter. Then all you would need to do is have friend make a spacer that was just a few thousands longer than the space between the bearings as installed in the hub. Should be a shoulder in the bore of the hub. Just make the spacer say 20 thousands longer than the shoulder measurements.
Brother was out today and we discussed it a bit. We’re both a little bit concerned about welding it back up. There’s not much meat between those threads and the od of the shaft so turning it down might not be the best solution either. He’s going to take a look at the shop tomorrow when he gets back to work and see if there’s any material to make one out of one piece of steel. They’re a very large machine shop and have quite a variety of steel around on hand but that might be pushing my luck too with them having it on hand. He can make it easily enough if he has the material. Going to make some calls too and see what the price is of a new one. Not worth his time if I can get it for 100-200$ Still have to measure and make a new spacer though probably as I don’t think act or fp smith had that on hand.
I was just looking again at the Parts Manual page you posted previously. The illustration shows a fixed (non-reversible) fan spider, not a reversible one like yours. I've often seen cases where the fan support, shaft, etc, are different between a reversible fan and a conventional pusher fan setup. Do any of the parts (e.g. 3S7496 Hub or 3S4815 Pulley) that you removed actually have Part Numbers on them that match the parts drawing you posted on the previous page.?
Not sure if this helps. The parts book shows the reversible fan as simple an attachment, with no change of the hub it bolts to over the standard fan.
That is not a reversible fan that's a straight fan just going the other way. The reversible fan uses the same hub. Bob
I have been able to match up some part numbers so it does appear that they just switch the fan out. They show the reversible fan in the options or accessories section of the parts book and they don’t show any other parts so it leads me to believe and as Bob mentions they use the same shaft. Mine is stamped 3s2119 and as per a previous discussion we had that was likely just the number for the shaft without the dowel as the book says 3s2121. Thanks for double checking though. Never know when I might slip up or misinterpret something. Sent a email out to a company in New York that shows a fan pulley available. Would be nice if I could get everything from one location but that might be wishful thinking. Conequip psrts was the name I believe. Going to contact fp smith as well as I’ve heard good things about them with the older iron. They didn’t show the pulley available but maybe they could locate one as well.
Got a email back from fp smith. Shaft and washer was all that was available from them. Little more then I was hoping though. 500$ US. Have a few others looking so I’ll see what comes up. Just got a quote back from act and they are more surprisingly. 628$. It is a pretty hefty chunk of iron but that’s still quite a bit of money. Haven’t heard back from my brother yet.
Well I’ve located a couple Options for the fan pulley. Ed Miller from Washington seems to be my best option at the moment. Haven’t asked about the tensioner pulley yet. Was looking at it some more tonight and debating if I should throw another couple hundred bucks in the pot and replace it too. The crank pulley is actually in very good shape it’s the tensioner and fan pulley that are grooved out pretty badly. New one shows up online for 353 US for the tensioner pulley part number 3S5035. Assuming used will be around half that. Debating how critical it is as it doesn’t actually drive anything just holds the tension. Already into this project a little deeper then I’d like to be but at the same time I don’t like to patch things up either. That’s what made this mess that I’m fixing. If the previous owners had fixed it correct I wouldn’t be here.
My gut feeling is to replace all those pulleys and belts with new even though it’s only working part time. They should be available as non oem,but perhaps not in your country. I think you’ll regret not replacing the pulleys one day down the line. I hope you can get it fixed up.
I’ve spend a lot of time looking online and have come up empty handed for new. The shaft is the only thing I’ve been able to locate but I believe my brother is going to make one rather then spend 7-800 cdn. I’ve talked with companies from North America and Australia and they’ve all come up empty handed for new unfortunately.
Doing some research on the website/company that lists the pulley and it sounds a little sketchy. It’s called aftermarket.express or aftermarket.supply. Some mixed reviews and people saying to be cautious. Sucks that I can’t find a decent supplier for new parts anymore. https://aftermarket.supply/caterpillar/3S5036.html
Hasn’t been much for updates lately. Been searching for parts and settled on a couple different options. Brother is making a new shaft and regrooving the tensioner pulley. I’m getting a good used fan pulley from Washington.
One piece of the puzzle done and in my possession now.
Pulley is here. Ed Miller shipped it from Washington a week ago today so it made pretty good time. Looks much better then my old one. Stupid freight was almost as much as the pulley though.
Slowly making progress. Between making parts, running around to get parts and installing said parts it’s kind of slow going. Got the fan bolted back up yesterday again. Had to run into town for another alternator belt as the one I had picked up was wrong. All new belts bearings seals and hardware. Made a new pivot shaft as well and some of the caps as they were getting grooved. Hopefully this will be the end of the issues with this part for ever now. I fit the shaft my brother made for me up first just to make sure he had the holes correct. Everything fit in as it should so that was a plus lol. Plan is to put the cylinder support back on tomorrow and try to finish up that part of it.
I dunno if it is a trick of the last photo but is that alternator mounting not square resulting in the pulley running cocked to one side.?
Good eye Nige. Yes it is off a bit. I looked at trying to shim it a bit to get it true but my belt may be a bit short for that. Haven’t made any final decisions on it yet. It’s a homemade bracket that someone has made up to accept the alternator vs generator I assume. Looks like they tried to copy the cat one in bit didn’t quite get it right. Suspect it’s been running like that for years.
That’s a really nice job you’ve done there and will be well worth it. The Cat belts are a good idea too.
There are plenty of belt choices in the same cross section if squaring up the alternator means the current one is too short.
I might have to track down some shorter ones I’m the future if these stretch out to quickly. I read somewhere that the cat belts were 40 degree and slightly wider but for the life of me can’t find it now again. I did find a listing for a inch shorter belt from cat which would work I think. Just might not be able to bottom the tensioner out as the book states. There's one part I’d have loved to replace but couldn’t find one available. It’s the assembly that the tensioner spring pulls on. The bottom holes were worn out quite a bit. Hopefully it doesn’t break out. Brother talked about machining one out of a piece of billet but that would take many hours of machining so we left it for now. I believe I can get it out the bottom without taking the fan off if worse comes to worst.
Are you using a 7H-9806 belt right now.?
7M4721 is what I have on there for the fan belts. 5l5014 is the one number I found that was the same width and just a little bit shorter. I was able to shim the back side of the alternator bracket a little bit and bring it back truer. It’s still not perfect but I’m at my limits as to what I can gain with the belt that’s on there. I do have a half inch longer belt here but I’d rather not take everything apart to change it.
7M-4721 is the P/N for a set of 2 belts. Are you sure about that 5I-5014 Part Number.? It comes up as a Stud. 8B-3546 is the individual belt P/N from the 7M-4721 set. It is a cogged belt 1994mm (78.5") long x 22.3mm (.875") wide. It appears as though there is nothing Cat slightly shorter than 8B-3546 in a cogged belt. If you wanted a non-cog type then 1C-6622 is 1981mm long, 1C-6630 is 1953mm long, 1C-6615 is 1938mm. So anything from 1/2" shorter to 2" shorterand all the same 22.3mm/.875" wide. All are single belt Part Numbers.
It was actually 5L5014 which on cats site comes up as a set of 3.(I should’ve put the capital letter in there) I’m not sure what the individual belt number is on that one.
5L-5014 is actually a set of two cogged belts, a set of 3 would be 2S-6168. Individual belt is a 3L-7539. Length is 1968mm (77.5"), width is the same. I have no idea why they didn't come up for me before.
This is the single belt which subs up to the set of three that I mentioned earlier.
You were replying as I typed I see nige. Thanks for the confirmation.
Finally drove the cat out of the shop today to flush the motor out from that oil cooler failure. Mixed up 4lbs of cascade dish detergent with water and poured it in. Did 2 batches so 8lbs total. Did a freshwater rinse after that again and now I had a cooling system cleaner from fleetguard to run through then one more freshwater rinse. Should have the cooling system clean of any oil by then hopefully. Cat ran perfect and there was no bubbles in the rad. Pressure was a bit higher then I thought it would be but it never got any higher or blew the relief valve. First rinse it only got up to 5lbs when I was working it. As it was siting idling cooling off cooling off the thermostats closed and it increased to 13.5 lbs on the gauge I have.(goes from 0-30 lbs) I know on the older relief valves they were supposed to go at 9-10 psi. The part number I ordered was stamped 15 psi. Same as what it replaced. There’s no indications that it’s burning water. Runs clean and sounds healthy. I worked it for about 3 hours in total today pushing very deep snow. Outside temp was just above freezing but the motor was right up to normal temp. Roughly 180-185.
I used Aftermarket Express . . . won't happen again. $4.22 order $11 to use PayPal $19.95 shipping FedEx (USPS would have been $5) $1.37 "Insurance" (not on my receipt, only showed up in PayPal)