ah so those of you who liked your series 3 case i have decided are going to be required to buy a terex, not a new holland case. from the looks of things, terex designed their machine to compete directly with the case series 3. the lift arms and such are manly i will give them that. im talking skid steers here, not ctls.
? I'm not getting it Dave? I like my S3 but will go to an Alpha Case once I sell my 440.
I looked at the Terex wheeled machine and I dont see where their engineers copied any other OEM specifically. Maybe they should have as I think they could have done better. Ergonomically the machine is odd, there some other design issues. The machine I think is much like their tracked machines only with wheels as to its looks. I think the series two version of this machine will see some of these small design issues be fixed. I would be curious as to how they are selling. Why would a Series 3 owner not want an Alpha series?
maybe i just like to fight the system. first of all, the b series volvo is sweet. you can pick up basically a fully loaded "new" (like 200 hours or less) one for like 15k. and you get the sweet ergonomics, the sweet pilot controls (not so convinced they are as sweet as others), and the sweet high back seat! what more could you want? the b series volvo is the second most comfortable skid steer i have sat in...you sit down and your like, "oh yea." sure they dont spec out amazingly, but who cares? everyone knows i kinda like the series 3 case. however, my problems with the 430/440 is 1. the cab is too narrow, too shallow (not as long as a 445, 435, and door is different), and not pressurized. 2. the front door is just too narrow, top and bottom. 3. they are expensive. 4. pilot controls are hard to come by. today it dawned on me that the terex rides are basically the same as a series 3 case, only has all the problems solved that i have a problem with on a 430 case. cab is larger, door is a little nicer, cab is pressurized, pilot controls, cheap price, etc. it concerns me that case people are so quick to give up their sweet design for the new holland design. there is no denying that the new case rides are basically a new holland. so case people, who always hated new holland, suddenly like them; that bothers me. the terex is the best of the old school designs, and you can still buy them new, and they are dirt cheap to buy new compared to others. the boom design is manly for one. the vertical boom is more like the case vertical boom, you can tell it would be able to handle more digging than any other vertical boom on the market these days. at first i was concerned the air vents are all at the back of the cab, but i drove a deere around the other day that was set up that way, and it worked just great so... you get sweet pilot controls instead of electric ones. the main attraction to the terex is that it just looks manly and sweet, has pilot controls, and has a sweet boom design.
I don't have any beef with a NH or their vertical boom, my first two skids were NH's(665 & 170). I liked them and how cheap they were but as what I did grew I needed a machine that could do more so went with the 440's. The one thing I did hate about the NH was the lack of the seatbar. Didn't care for the NH hand controls and the machines are underpowered. I wish the 440 could be had with a vertical boom as we do so much truck loading. As for the Case/NH partnership, it is helping the price as there is so much more volume for parts and the chassis isn't one off custom. As for a new wheeled Terex, I've looked one over and you could not give it too me. Am not impressed with Terex at all, in fact I think they are the worst thing that happened to ASV.
why what is the problem with the terex? how is it worse than a 430 case? its basically a 430 with vertical lift option... that machine looks all asv to me, i dont think terex had anything to do with the design. again the pilot controls are the selling point. they are the only ones who have it. granted, i have heard they are having problems with them.
I get wanting pilots type controls. The Terex has a Perkins so that is a huge strike, dealer support is another and to me it just did not look like it was designed compared to Case/NH, Deere, Bobcat or Cat. I've had a ASV 30 for almost ten years and the fit and finish is really lacking compared again to the other brands. Once the Case/NH get their E/H controls dialed in that may be the answer?
The Terex machine has little in common with a Series 3 beyond they are both pilot operated skid steers. Terex in order to bring a wheeled machine to this market which is selling about 75% fewer machines than it was 5-6 years ago they had to do it economically. The wheeled machine shares a lot of common parts with their tracked machines. It only makes sense. The new Alpha is not a NH machine. Its a common platform that has class leading breakout (certainly not a NH trait), class leading hp and at or near the top for torque in wheeled machines and most track machines (very much a CASE trait). At or near the top with hyd hp with the enhanced high flow pump (also a CASE trait). Not sure what makes this a NH machine. The machine at least in my opinion is much more CASE as it is more true to the CASE lineage and leads the industry where CASE traditionaly has lead. The difference being that the Alpha machine also excells where CASE has not lead and that is having a most excellent cab. The E/H system with the recent upgrades will set the standard for E/H controls. I was concerned about this Alpha series when the details were first released. After running them I was pretty impressed, however what contiues to sell me is that CASE is continuing to make big upgrades with this series. I am very happy to see that. Still a couple things I would like to see (easier cleaning radiator) but I have faith it will happen. My other personal issues are being fixed (presets on the control settings, a different console).
well, what factory do the new skids come out of? was it a case or new holland factory? i dont know. im also not sure, but i think the case skids have a new holland engine in them. the new case machines have new holland controls. the new case machines have basically a super boom option, you have to agree the boom is much more new holland vertical than old case vertical. front door, and front cylinder design is new holland. as is the bucket pin design. no more of the sweet straddle mount attachment plate or cylinders. (pretty sure of this) im pretty sure new holland had electric control option in the ls series. new case i dont believe has the adjustable axles for chain adjustment. or grease zerks on axles. sv185 has very new holland like specs, with pretty weak forces. overall machine lenth and width is very new holland like across the board. as far as the terex having a perkins: engine brand makes little difference these days, they are all about the same. im just saying if you want a natural progression from a 430 case, terex is the progression, not the new case, the are nothing alike. my problems with electric controls is that i just dont see you being able to run 10,000 hours with them; i wouldnt be comfortable running over 3000 with them. it is hard enough to keep a machine running that long without having to worry about electronics. basically, if we got electric controls, it would effectively almost double our machine operating cost per hour; cuz u would either have to trade all the time, or stick big money in your controls.
You may have a point, honestly I dont know what the life span of these Rexroth controls are. CAT has been running them the longest and they likely have a better idea of the cost per hour to keep them going. CNH may have some long term R&D machines that have a lot of time on them I dont know. Guess as time goes on we will see how they hold up. I like what E/H brings to the table, selective speed and sensitivity, change patterns without losing performance, engine and contol interface. Now that CNH seems to have found a way to mimic the great feel of pilots, that should help in the controlability area, however on how they hold up, I have nothing. I hope your wrong. I don't usually keep a machine to 3K hours but never say never. I never used to keep one for 5 years but I have now.
ah what a sweet writeup well, im not sure what ever happened to the new holland built engines. (back when new holland was on their own) they seem to have disappeared. ah, u got iveco, also owned by fiat industrial, just like cnh so... most farmers dont know a thing about their machines. u might be lucky to find one who doesnt even know the brand of his skid steer. obviously they dont know anything about the engine, or any of the components etc. so a terex might look a lot like a 430 case to them. a farmer would just laugh if he got in a pilot controlled machine over his standard bobcat, and that would be the end of it. i would say at the local dealers you might have one out of 50 new holland and bobcats sold with pilot controls. ah i test drove a ls175 with pilot controls at the local dealer about a year ago. i was kinda impressed with it. im surprised to hear those had pilot controls cuz it didn't really feel like it. i asked the dealer if they were hydraulic or electric and he had no idea what is was talking about. he just said they seem kinda neat. i drove around a new holland 200 or whatever it was. it was basically the same as our bobcat. the only reason i see people would switch brands is if the dealer was better, or more handy. you still have the problem with the boom arms being significantly higher than the bucket in a shed. you knew it was coming: i dont see what is so good about the cab on the case new holland. compared to the jcb cab it is completely laughable. first of all the jcb is quite, i dont see how a loud cab is sophisticated at all. also compared to the jcb: visibility is terrible, fit and finish is questionable, comfort is questionable, hard to clean, less room, no rear view mirror, etc. but thats neither here nor there. i did notice that the terex looked like it would be hard to grease. and that the rear door screen was like an eighth of an inch away from the radiator. the real question is: when they (case) update the controls are they proprietary settings specific to case, or does the control supplier make those changes across the board to other brands and such. b3 series cat does not have pressurized cab, and do they still have the goofy door with the angles in it? and they are unnecessarily expensive.
OHH Boy ! ... I can hardly wait to read the next chapter of this thread ..... this sure beats the no ... snow .... plowing blues ......LOL
the real question is: when they (case) update the controls are they proprietary settings specific to case, or does the control supplier make those changes across the board to other brands and such. These changes are proprietary . well, im not sure what ever happened to the new holland built engines. (back when new holland was on their own) they seem to have disappeared. Somewhere someone needed a boat anchor. you knew it was coming: i dont see what is so good about the cab on the case new holland. compared to the jcb cab it is completely laughable. first of all the jcb is quite, i dont see how a loud cab is sophisticated at all. also compared to the jcb: visibility is terrible, fit and finish is questionable, comfort is questionable, hard to clean, less room, no rear view mirror, etc. but thats neither here nor there. My hell. Hard to clean? yes a mirror is available, loud? Well like they say there is an asss for every seat or not. ah i test drove a ls175 with pilot controls at the local dealer about a year ago. i was kinda impressed with it. im surprised to hear those had pilot controls cuz it didn't really feel like it. i asked the dealer if they were hydraulic or electric and he had no idea what is was talking about. he just said they seem kinda neat. This is the biggest problem with having Ag guys selling construction equipment, most dont get it and they are ok with that. If I were only King for a day in the CNH world. This BS would come to end. ah, u got iveco, also owned by fiat industrial, just like cnh so... So what?
LOL I am bored out of my mind. No snow, frost is about 36" deep right now so there is zero to do.
All I know you couldn't GIVE ME anything that is NH after the nightmare years with that JD 8875 hybrid I had before I got the BC A-300....... BIGGEST POS I ever owned .... the Only good thing about that hybrid was the only thing on it that was JD and that was that noisey JD 3cyl engine .... KSSS my buddy with the 1845c is now waiting to see the new Case 175, but our dealers are slow to produce it here to lick the door handles and try it out ....hmmmmpfff
NOW THAT is an understatement ......LOL
The dealers should have them. Especially someone like Hamer (maybe they are only in Alberta and not BC) they sell a loads of skid steers up there I hear.
ah, y yes the cab on a cnh is hard to clean. how do you clean out the foot well? my question is especially the same for non bobcat type machines where tons of trash can accumulate below the foot pedals. on machines that just have a floor, it seems that trash would accumulate instantly on the floor and if nothing else render your foot throttle useless. windows are hard to clean too. i want a tractor quiet cab on my skid steer. (72 db) i want to chat with my buddies on the phone and listen to the radio comfortably. i laugh at bobcat trying to upholster the whole cab to try to make it quite. does your case have that? i like the jcb rear view mirror. it is built into the machine. sure you can throw a mirror in a machine but then you hit your head on it, it hurts your visibility, etc. cnh did an alright job making a machine for the masses. the cab is quite a bit nicer than bobcat minus the front door. the case 440 and 450 seem to be missing from the lineup. well, i have never considered new holland or bobcat to be construction equipment. most of them go to farmers, and most farmers dont care about their stuff, they just want a skid steer. the dealer that didnt know much about his pilot controlled skid steer is the largest dealer in north america for certain brands, so he cant be all bad. the weather in wi is sweet this winter. it has been between 40 and 50 degrees F the past few weeks. hardly any snow yet, no frost in the ground...i hate snow, just means i have to deal with the bobcat for that much longer every day. well that seems kinda silly that the settings would be proprietary. what if i was building a skid steer in my basement and wanted electric controls? cant i just go to the supplier and have them hook me up with sweet ones?
As you said "Dealers should have them"......The big player in B.C. is Inland Kenworth for ALL your Case & Link belt needs (Excav., Loaders, Skids ect. ) ... there are a few farm tractor dealers that have the franchise rights to the skids as well ...... there are not too many Case skids around as much as the BC's or Jd's and Cat's ... there were alot of Thomas's (Canadian made) or should I say used to be .... they went broke a few yrs ago
There is no upholstry in my TR320. The mirror is out of the way. The SR250 is the 450. The 440 does not have as direct of a replacement. The 220 would be pretty close. My issue with many ag dealers is they don't know the product. The CE dealer has to know his product. The Ag dealer when it comes to skid steers views it as a very small portion of his sales. It takes as much time to sell a 315 Magnum as it does a SR220. Since one goes for 42K and the other for 300K its easy to see where the emphasis would be. I am sure your dealer isn't all bad when comes to buying a haybine or swather, I would be sure that he's not a number one skid dealer if he doesn't know how his skid steer is contolled or understand the lingo of the industry. If your going to sell a produt you dam well better understand it better than your customers. Thats not often the case with ag salesman when selling construction equipment. Its not the settings that are proprietary. Its the way they manipulated the control system to mimic the feel of pilots. CNH did that, not Rexroth, why should that be available to everyone that uses Rexroth controls? I am not an expert in how this works so maybe I am off base, CASE and CAT buys the off the shelf Rexroth E/H controls. Its still up to the skid steer OEM or you in your basement to adapt that system to your skid steer. That gives you the opportunity to make the system "yours". I was present for some of the testing of the CASE pilot controls, both the CASE and CAT used the same supplier, the CASE pilots were much more precise then were the CAT controls even though they were both from the same supplier. The E/H controls are the same way. Its still up to the OEM to make the system theirs. The success of that will vary from different machines from the same OEM.
is your 320 quiet enough to talk on the phone and drive? my buddy complained right away going from his cabless 445 to a sv250 about cab noise. the local dealer says he cant keep enough 220s around. yes i did find it funny that i was telling the dealer about how the controls in his skid steer worked. but i dont think i have ever talked to a salesman who knew more about his product than me. i do all the research before im interested in buying anything. 2 years ago, i didnt know a thing about skid steers really. all the salesman say is, oh yea this baby can lift 2000 pounds! and its got air, the big tires; all my machines are all loaded up! well they kinda forgot the sweet 450 boom design... was that boom actually stronger than the others? i would say the local dealers sell between 80 and 150 skid steers a year each. well, hopefully jcb knows how to fine tune their controls. sounds like they are going to have a sensitivity dial in the cab. does yours have that? ah look for a full lineup of jcb skid steers at louisville this year at the national farm machinery show.
You have never considered Bobcat to be construction equipment???? I am never suprised by your comments! What exactly would Bobcat be then? I dont recall seeing many ag Bobcat dealers. I do know of several BC dealers that sell other construction equipment and turf equipment.
thats right i said that. bobcats were built to work on farms. the vast majority of bobcats have been sold to farmers. bobcats have always been farm equipment. when i say bobcat, i am talking about their skid steers; they have been dabbling more and more into other markets to try to increase their profit margins. there is way more money in selling construction equipment than farm equipment. "challenger" found that out the hard way.
I am not sure if I can talk at full throttle or not. The CTL is louder than a wheeled machine (track noise) so I really doubt I can. If your a salesman whether it is selling pickups or skid steers you need to know your product. Some markets especially with farming being rather profitable lately it does not surpise me that some dealers could sell 100 skid steers and not have a clue what they are selling. Like you said most farmers dont care, if it moves manure, their all good. I liked the fast cycle times of the 450. It was an ideal large grading and excavating skid steer. The loader arms would get kinda loose over time. There were quite a few grease zerks on that machine for a radial lift. The mechanical self leveling was the cause of the rattling and the extra grease zerks. As far as strength, I am not sure how it compared. Just by looking at them I would think that title would go to the 465. There is a lot of steel in those loader arms. The 320 does not have a dial. You have different preset levels (4) for ground speed, lift, bucket tilt and presets (3) for sensitivity. You preset how you want the machine to react.
As someone with quite a bit of experience in agriculture, I honestly can't remember the last time I saw a Bobcat on a farm. Sure that's what they were initially developed for, but in this area (primarily dairy farms, so lots of skid steers) no one uses Bobcat. Only landscapers and rental places. As was said, most farmers don't know or care all that much about skid steers, so they are just going to buy whatever brand the dealer or dealers they deal with for other equipment sells. Case, JD, NH, & Gehl are the big names in this area. Gehl has a pretty strong following, but I suspect that will drop off more and more since they dropped the rest of their agricultural equipment some years back. Granted, this is my specific location, and a huge part of this has to do with the local dealer situation. If there is a Bobcat dealer that aggressively markets to agriculture and has built up a big following over the years, or the local JD/CNH/etc. dealer also carries Bobcat, it may be a different story. For example, we had a Thomas dealer in the area a few years ago that was making some pretty good inroads before they went belly up. But still, everything I've seen from their product line and marketing for some time seems to suggest that Bobcat feels landscaping and construction are their core customers.
naw naw u guys got it all wrong! in my area basically every dairy farm has 2 or 3 bobcats! most are s185s. some like the s130 for tooling around in their old school buildings. a few moved up to the s250. in a 2 mile radius of my house i would guess there are around 25 bobcats working on farms. i know of 1 deere, 1 new holland; thats it. just about for every one non bobcat skid steer dealer, there is one ag bobcat dealer. i would say you got 8 or 9 bobcat dealers within an hour and a half of my farm. i rarely see skid steers of any kind not working on a farm. i see a few cats, asv, new holland, some bobcat plowing snow or working on a construction sites. i find it interesting that if you go to tractorhouse.com and search for bobcats with iso controls out of 2800 bobcats you get like 10 with iso controls. seems to me contractor types would want that so... but it is still fact that the majority of bobcats have gone to farmers, out of the nearly 1 million they have sold. i see on the c series volvo skid steers, they are bragging that they have full hydraulics at low rpms. never heard jcb brag about that. so that is interesting. so do any skid steers have variable displacement hydraulic pumps on them these days? i drove a 90xt once and it seemed like it did, otherwise all skid steers i drive have slow hydraulics at low rpms. i would imagine that farmers are the only ones keeping gehl/mustang skid steers alive. who else would continue buying such dated machines.
I don't really have a dog in this fight but I'm not sure I agree with the statement that it's a fact that most Bobcats were sold to farmers. That's a pretty bold statement. What is the source of your information? I hope it's more than just driving 25 miles and looking for orange skid steers. My initial impression of Bobcat is one of an industrial nature. I grew up, and learned my industrial trade in a urban area (a big city boy for all you rednecks ). I saw Bobcats on job sites. I did not see nay Bobcats on farms until I moved to CO. They did have a big ag presence in the area I lived and they were sold by a NH dealer (primarily AG) near my residence. All that being said, I would have to admit that my impression is colored by my experience. Furthermore contratcor types may, or may not, want whatever type of controls (ISO, Bobcat, Gehl, Case, or whatever) they learned on. We all know it's a PITA to learn a different pattern than wht we are already acustomed to. Anyway your supporting evidence to our statement (the previously metioned 25 mile radius pole you took) is weak. I must say that this thread was pretty interesting. I liked hearing all the info KSSS knows about Case skid steers. When I saw the thread I thought that maybe you, Dave, had finally bought one of your precious JCB/Volvo skid steers. I am glad to see that we are not droning on about those machines.
ah yes kss is such a wise man! ah what does kss say about my claim that the majority of the nearly million bobcats have gone to farmers. ah give it time... another few months we should have the jcb. i might have to buzz to louisville to get the specs and such for placing the order. ideally, i would wanna try one out first but that would delay the purchase that much more... oh and that was 25 bobcats witin 2 miles of my house, not 25 miles. there would likely be over a thousand if you went a 25 mile radius.
Dave, All joking aside. I would like to know if you have any substantative information to back up your claim. You said: "...but it is still fact that the majority of bobcats have gone to farmers...". I have an impression, as stated in my last post, and I bet most others do too. Are you stating a fact or is it your impression? If it's your impression that's fine. If you are stating a true fact I would like to know the source. I am curious.
ah, i would imagine such a statistic doesn't really exist...but i would put $500 on it... what does everyone else think. would you say over 50% of the bobcats ever made were sold to farmers? i would suspect the percentage to by much higher than that.
Dave, I did not respond to the claim about the majority of BC's going to farmers, because 1. There is no way to prove who is right 2. Who really cares? BC sells a lot of machines, they always have. Ford sells a lot of pickups and I don't buy those either. You would purchase a new model JCB without running it first? Your a brave man or you dont know any better.
..........:thumbsup .......:thumbsup........:thumbsup.............:beerchug
I had seen some information when I was stll selling Bobcat that was a simple pie chart showing all the historical sales to customer segments- ag, rental, landscaping, construction, govt., etc. Dave...I'm afraid to tell you that while Bobcat(Melroe) built their early business on the backs of ag customers, the great bulk of their sales are comprised of construction, rental and landscaping. Sorry to disappoint.
.........uhhhh ............. I guess that means Dave is now out $500 ..............?????????
Whats your address digdeep? Dave is gonna have to mail you a check.....
what's with the hate? i don't have much to say on this subject. i do like case skiddies, but i am a bobcat man. no... i am not a farmer either. terex?? i don't know. deere 8875 and new holland 8875?:Banghead owned four of them. thank god the bobcat dealer found me a such a young age. in my line of work there are only 3 machines i would run. Bobcat, Cat and Case. i don't know why you guy's have to hate on machines so much. why don't you put up some pictures or show us the virtues of whatever you are so proud of.:stirthepot regards, cd
How long have you have the CATwith VTS? I dont think there is any real hate its just bantering back and forth, this is what we do on this forum since Dave arrived with a JCB brochure in his back pocket.
Since Digdeep and Dave are in the same State, I think Dave should atleast buy pizza for Digdeep's math class.
What about Link Belt? Oh, and Yanmar? Where did that Cat come from?
let me clarify sorry for the confusion. i meant i would only run 3 types of skiddies. bobcat, cat and case. as for minies.. the yanmar is broken and back in grand junction. some regulater valve went out. they sent me up a 75 but we have not used it much. and the cat 262 with vts.... belongs to a buddy. nice machine, quik and powerfull. as for excavator's..link belt, case, komatsu, deere, hitachi.. yanmar. i am not that picky. it is all about the dealer. i just stepped in to stir the pot:stirthepot. don't quite get it why everybody has to bag on every one elses iron. i do find it ironic that every rancher around here has an old deere or new holland skiddie. never seen a rancher with a bobcat
ah dont worry i didn't leave the forum, i will be back to comment...
................ " Stay Tuned Folks "........ for the next Chapter of a Great Cliff Hanger ........:guns
LOL! I am holding my breath.
i can hardly take my afternoon nap... i am so wound up about the anointed one's upcoming response. :sleeping
........... LMFAO ......... KSSS: I guess you're REALLY good at holding your breath on this one ...... :cool2 knowing what is to come, it'll probably be a short one:waving
ah, i am back. i figure i should prolly reply to my own thread. i like the idea of having my own thread...no rules. yes, u guys r real funny... wow i do feel pretty much awesome with the apparent sweet reputation i have fabricated on the forum. i will never know why the "contractor" forum is where i choose to hang. y dont i go to a sweet jcb forum or a sweet agtalk forum where there would be more people just like me and we could feed off each other, it would be glorious that is for sure. i guess instead i chose to take on the world. yes, i notice that this is clearly the first time i feel even remotely like i have been proven wrong on the forum. this is all still debatable, but maybe i am stuck in my own little world where i see nothing but bobcats everywhere, and hardly any other brands anywhere. i clearly dont hate on machines, all i do is try to defend the jcb skid steer. i will never forget the animosity and utter ignorance when i first came to the forum talking about the new jcb. at the time i new little about non bobcat skid steers, but managed to stumble onto the new jcb skid steer website and it is all history from there. it seems that i like any equipment. if someone needs something that needs to be driven, i am game. i especially like old red steigers. i like when you sit in the seat and cant see anything but giant hood in front of you. i like the idea of being able to run large objects over and not even know it. yes. oh, what is with these stories i keep hearing about people getting paid up to 75 bucks an hour just to operate a excavator, dozer, scraper... that is just to operate, i hear such claims all the time. so any of the new skid steers with joysticks are alright. i would enjoy running them all day. but put them side by side with a jcb, then get a third party to come in/someone who knows nothing about skid steers and they would chose the jcb every time. ah im sure i will have to defend this statement later. we clearly demoed a jcb 260 for a week on the farm. and it was sweet, so its not like we would be purchasing the smaller one not knowing anything about it. the 260 was perfect with the exception of the door handle that we discussed earlier. since i am in and out 5000ish times a year a better door handle would be strategic. as far as effort for getting in and out of the machine over a front entry machine, that might be a wash. but the safety factor is significant. one slip getting into a skid steer (which i have never done yet) could easily cause serious damage to oneself. not to mention getting smashed by the bucket. ah there was another local incident recently where a farmer died because of his front entry skid steer. kss, the only problem i could see myself having with the smaller jcb skid steer is the e h controls. you bought a much higher priced machine than we would without even liking them from the get go. at least that is what i have extrapolated since you like it so much better after the updates were done. the bobcat has been on its last leg for like the last 5 years. it is in need of a serious rebuild. any moving part is completely worn out. still technically runs like new tho. we would prolly gain 3 to 4 months by placing an order right away which is significant. why did thomas go out of business? i always liked them even tho no one else did. but your right, there are jcb brochures lying all over the farm, and every day i scour the internet for new material on the jcb skid steer. but farmers and such are slow at getting info on the internet. i might make the 9ish hour trek to louisville with my tape measure, and maybe convince them to let me drive one. or take one home for that matter. the real question is what took everyone so long to try to compete directly with the bobcat s185. bobcat has been laughing all the way to the bank forever with that one. i have considered putting up pics of our bobcat, there is hardly any white paint visible on it. if i go to louisville i might go around to all the skid steer brands and tell them how their machines are highly questionable. i think that would be right up my alley. first thing i would do is tell deer and new holland the only reason i dont consider their machine is cuz of the vulnerable rear end as soon as you raise the boom. as you know i like to use the rear of my machine as a dozer blade from time to time in the woods. as a side note. dewalt 18v cordless tools themselves are alright, but the batteries are completely worthless rendering the tools all worthless. we got like 2k worth of cordless tools i bought in one crack a while back. and now i see i need 4 new batteries. so thats 500 bucks im not willing to waste. so i am considering throwing them all away. and getting METABO cordless tools. metabo is equivalent to jcb. and for those of you who dont like the analogy, you could say they are equivalent to [insert whatever it is you have the highest opinion of in life x 10] hilti tools seems pretty sweet too. i would get the metabo 18v li ion 4ah cordless line. and yes, we have metabo stuff around, some 20 years old with no problems. i like how with the cordless grinder on a freshly charged battery, you get like 20 seconds of heavy grinding before it stops with dewalt. well it is getting to be about that time...
finally thank god... i can go to bed now... thank you regards, cd
Dave..in defense of your assertion that the majority of skid steers have been sold to farms I would say that you have to look at where you're located. If you live in an ag area it makes sense that you'll see most machines on farms. If you live in a residential area you wouldn't. Take it a step further by understanding that historically 1 in 5 (20%) skid steers sold in the world was sold in MN, IA, WI, OH and MI. It's still a large number, but not 20% anymore. Also know that roughly 30% of skid steers are sold outside of North America. As a matter of fact, I was told that Italy was actually the second largest market behind the U.S.. Even larger than Canada. I don't know if that's the case today given all the economic troubles Italy has been having. In closing, I can see where you would perceive ag being the largest segment based on where you live (nothing wrong with that), but it's not the case.
WOW!!!!!.............that was quite the synopsis. Im not even going to go there with the JCB discussion anymore, until you or someone on this site has REAL world experience with it. As far as the Dewalt tool talk goes, i am right with you. We have 5 combo kits and just about every other 18v dewalt tool made. The tools are great but the batteries are JUNK!!!!!!!! I bought a new Bosch kit last year and the batteries are good but the tools are junk and all worn out already. I think its a conspiracy! You pay $500 for a kit and thats all the use a guy gets? Amazing... I dont know much about Metabo cordless tools but their corded tools are wonderful. I have 2 Hilti 24v cordless drills and they are very good. The bad part is they weigh 500 lbs and are so big they wont fit in tight quarters. My choice would be Makita if your considering a new kit.... They are the best compromise in performance, price, and batteries. My second would be Millwaukee, however their newer corded tools are junk, and i would never ever buy another one. Just remembered, the first day i had the Hilti 24v drill one of my guys dropped it 40' off of a scaffold onto a blacktop parking lot. The only thing it did was put a couple huge scuffs on it, never had a problem with it. No other cordless could have took that fall!
At the risk of being suckered in I have a couple of thoughts based on your last post: No hate here Dave, though it may sound that way. It would sound different if I was speaking and not typing. These forums can be a good source of information as people get together to share their experiences, in this case, with heavy equipment. In order to gain good useful information one must filter what is being read. The filter is necessary to judge the quality of the information. It is true that I do not know you Dave. I do not have much background on you and I can not determine what life experiences you have had. I'm left only with what you have posted. Here lies my, for lack of a better word, issue. I have a hard time trusting your comments because it sounds like you've drank too much of the JCB cool-aid. There is nothing wrong with that. It just, for me, discredits your opinion because, from what I can gather, you are not objective. I know you were able to demo the 260 but you were espousing how wonderfull these skids are long before you had any practical experience in one. I'm sure that nothing will deter you from buying one, and I have no interest in trying. I hope it works out for you and I would very much like to hear updates from you on how it works over time. It would be interesting to see what you think after it's been on it's last leg for 5 years like the Bobcat.
Don't bet on that. As far as the Bobcat sold to farmers/contractors debate, as KSSS stated previously, who really cares? The fact is that the Bobcat machine, which was Melroe in its inception, was a machine designed to do small "farm" tasks, back when tractors were just that, a tractor. Since those early days, the Bobcat machine has evolved into a more multi purpose small work machine that fits well into the small contractors work needs, work that used to be done with much larger TLB's and straight mast forklifts back in the day. Likewise, the farm tractor has evolved into a more multi purpose farmers machine, tractors such as Kubota and others, that a farmer can quickly attach front loader, pallet forks, auger driven from either rear three point hitch or from the loader front coupler. The new small farm tractors provide farmers with a multi use machine that can do many tasks that a skiddie can, yet still pull a plow, which a skiddie won't. That being said, some farmers still keep a skiddie around. If the truth was known, probably just a personal preference thing and nothing more.
Dave, here is how I came into the TR320. I was sent to AZ to run the Alpha series. I liked what I saw enough to order one. The TR320 I ordered came in and I ran it for a couple days. It took me about half a day to get used to the E/H but I liked it generally. The issue was the standard high flow was not enough to run my Davco type rotary as well as I wanted, from that I knew that running the Tushogg mulcher was going to be more of an issue although I never ran the mulcher on the TR320. CASE had just released the enhanced high flow option for these machines. I told them I did not want the original one that was ordered for me and that I wanted one with the enhanced high flow. They had to beg for a build spot after Oct 1 and before Dec. 31. They found a dealer willing to trade a slot. While they were building my new machine, some of these updates became available such as being able to program the machines response to your preference, and the changes to the E/H to allow a more pilot like response. It was not all great, I had to accept less for my trade, since I put a more hours on it waiting for the new machine, I was not happy about that but I guess it was fair. I really could have really used the TR320 last Fall, but I think considering the updates made to the machine and the more powerful high flow it was worth the wait. I liked what they had done with the E/H from the start, the fact that they made it better was icing on the cake. There are still some areas that need to be improved but I think the machine and the Alpha series in general appears to be off to a good start. JCB will have some teething issues as well just like CAT did with the C series, Deere has with the D series and as Case has with the Alpha series and so forth. I am surprised that you acknowledged the door issue with the JCB. I thought you did not see the issue with that? Declaring it to be much like a door in a tractor, its not the same application is it? The Dewalt segway was an unexpected turn in your manifesto, but one that I also can relate to. I was at Home Depot and was considering buying the combo pack of Dewalt cordless with the new 20V Ion battery. Has anyone tried these out yet? I wanted to buy them but thought I would wait until I could find some feedback. $80.00 for a Dewalt battery is insane. I have a Lincoln battery operated grease gun with the bigger 18v battery. Same battery as the Dewalt but with a couple plastic differences preventing you from using the same battery (you can hold the lincoln battery in the dewalt sawzaw and it will work in a pinch). I think it is time someone forced a single battery source like they did with phone chargers on the Droid phones, just as that was over due, so is this silly battery issue. As for the Thomas skid steers, I think the margins are pretty slim building skid steers only. They did offer screeners and I think branded someones mini ex but its a tough market. Only BC has been able to do build compact equipment only and make a go at it. Scat Trac did no better than Thomas. I think the Thomas machines were rugged machines but they were not well known, dealers were sketchy, and the ruggedness made them more crude than other machines at the time. They were built from the same componenets as everyone elses machines. Thomas should not feel bad, Komatsu the number 2 heavy equipment OEM in the world backed out of the same market because they could not get any penetration in this area either.
Isn't Thomas still in business? I think they Were... building them in Canada. Maybe they closed though. Any info on that? I have ran a few of there machines and they arent bad at all. A place we used to get stone had one and we used it to load our truck. Machine had crazy hours on it and was beat to hell but still ran really good. Havent tried any of the new Dewalt stuff. I dont think i would buy any more untill they prove they have a good battery.
well there is no denying i live in a sweet area loaded up with skid steers. what is this i see a new "daewoo/doosan" in the paper with "cat" controls for 23k? i visited the thomas website, it looks like you can buy their skid steer parts inventory from them so it looks like they might be done. we have the dewalt xrp li ion batteries. after 2 years and maybe 150 charges, 2 of the batteries are bad, and the other 2 are not 100% thats for sure. dewalt advertises 2000 charges. since the new li ion batteries are around $130 a piece, i am going to pick up this sweet new 3 pack of ni cad batteries on ebay for $100. the ni cad is a better battery, just heavier. and a fuel gage on a li ion is necessary, dewalt doesnt have it and it never fails any time you get to the top of the ladder your tool quits, and there is no warning the li ions randomly quit when they still have about full power. if i was to do it over i would get metabo and consider nothing else. my buddy has new milwaukee 18v li ion and cant get the batteries to last more than a year or the ni mh for that matter. going to louisville for the small jcb skid steer range intro. cant wait to get one im getting chronic knee pain from the bobcat these days. about the door issue. i was defending the engineers saying "technically" there is nothing wrong with it. and if i wasnt in and out so much it wouldnt be a big deal. ic some of the pics in my brochure dont have a window on the cab, is that an option? (the sliding one) i dont understand y dewalt would randomly release a full new lineup of 20v cordless tools... i guess the dewalt strategy is the more the merrier. we get about 5 or 6 years out of our lincoln 12v batteries. kss the only reason you like the bobcat s205 is because you want someone to recreate your beloved 440, and the bobcat is as close as anyone with that machine. the 205 would need serious reworking to handle more hp, i would recommend the 650 for. that machine is smaller than most for its specs, but of corse you would have to chip it though to get your 83 hp. "It just, for me, discredits your opinion because, from what I can gather, you are not objective" i would have to argue that i am one of the few who IS objective. i can spot something good when i see it, and i run with it. dont worry i will supply the forum with timely updates on reliability and such, and resale and such since i wouldnt even consider running these new machines to high hours like the old bobcat.
Actually I like the size of the 205 simply for what it is. I just think BC could have taken that machine a lot further. The best machine I think BC makes (that I have run) is the S220. When I bought my 440 I demoed the 220. Thats probably as close as I have come to owning a BC. I liked that 220. Let me apologize for not being objective enough. I will work on that. I look forward to your hearing about your JCB purchase after Louisville.
i am actually disappointed that jcb did not incorporate their high speed and their suspension system into their skid steer. ever since i drove the new fastrack 8250 tractor with full front and rear suspension and cvt tranny, i just laugh at all my conventional tractors i drive around in, what a joke. the plan is to trade the magnum in on a fastrack asap.
You would trade a Magnum for a JCB tractor? Do you think the JCB will last 15,000 hours?
again, nothing new these days is going to last. u gotta keep trading. its the electronics more than the sweet suspension setup that will get you in the end. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BNq-YOzpxqg
anyone ever ran this michelin radial skid steer tire?? this also looks like another good idea for me. http://www.directindustry.com/prod/...-skid-steer-loader-forklfit-20173-484920.html
wait a minute... 530 bucks a tire!?!?!?! screw that!!! we pay like 130 or something now...
Google Super Grip tires. Thats a tire that is built to holdup to abuse.
Dave, that would be a scary thought on a machine with a 48" wheelbase, regardless of who makes it!!! I'll keep my 12.5 MPH in a 2 speed skid.....that's as fast as I'd want to go...
how about a 43 inch wheelbase and 12 mph with a suspension of some kind?? seems if there ever was an application that needed a suspension this would be it. at least throw a suspended cab on, that would not be hard to do.
I'll give you the suspended cab idea....Aside from physically fitting the extra parts, I wouldn't see that as too big an issue.....especially on machines that hinge from the front with their tilting cabs.....who knows what we'll see in the future. It really comes down to what customers are willing to pay for I think. They would dip them in gold if people would buy 'em.
No way, we need more speed out of these machines. Why can't they get at least 15-18mph, we need it for plowing.
i was thinking today it would be nice to getting around 16mph out of a skid steer for cruising to the other farms down the road. 12 mph and 4 miles wont cut it. a basic, simple suspended cab would not be too expensive. jcb would have the easiest time accomplishing this with their current deign.
http://www.jcbamericas.com/products/0-/9-skid-steer-loaders/270-205/ specs are out on the small frame jcbs! feel free to compare them to others. im impressed the lift cylinder has much more force than the case sv185, and am impressed you can configure to a 60 inch width. you have to click on the "spec sheet"
Great Dave, you've probably just started a holy war......
Hey JCBiron.... do you guys sell JCB telehandlers? I just saw a new highboom 10K machine locally and wondered if you had any experience? Dont want to hijack this thread, just didnt think it was worth starting a new one.
Yes this will make the first Crusade look like a practice session. I am kidding. Although I find it interesting that if it out specs the CASE than it must just bury a BC.
Yes, we do sell the telehandlers, both "Construction" (lift and place) and their AGRI models (ground engaging). I have some experience with the 550-170, which is a 10K machine to 54ft, Although they have just released a couple new hi-capacity models, the 512-56 and and the 550-70 (which is the same as the 170, but with a shorter boom, and thus a 12K rating). I do not have any experience with these models. Overall, the JCB telehandler is hard to beat (of course, I'm biased). They have been in the biz for almost 40 years and have the most extensive line of any mfg. from a 3300lb compact to a 12K 56ft and everywhere in between. Our biggest hurdle is that we are typically on the high end of the price spectrum. However, in most cases, our machines have a much higher spec "base offering" than the competition, which is sometimes good, and sometimes costs us a sale.
Yea, they look pretty sweet. I was looking over the load charts and they are very good, much better than the 550-170. If its not too much trouble can you PM me a price for a new one? Not committed to buying anything yet, just browsing!
saw the smaller jcbs at louisville. they are highly impressive. same large cab as the large frame, the machine is all cab. tiny compact size with big performance. outrageously easy to get in and out of; no step just slide right in. ridiculously simple under cab layout. effortless joysticks, unlike bobcat and others. there were 2 things i wish they would have addressed. there is no in cab sensitivity adjustment for joysticks, and the door handle is still the same. these will be addressed on the first update of the machine. the jcb dealer from milwaukee was there. the said he sold 100 skid steers so far, and anticipates much more now with the full lineup. the smaller ones still boast significant fuel savings over competition. visibility is unsurpassed, even on the arm side. i was looking at my old farm magazine from the 60s and hydra mac made a one arm skid steer bak in the day; it was a smaller model. wait time for a machine is about 3 months if u order today.
I think before you think about buying one of those JCB skidsteer(not sure on wheeled machines but tracked ones for sure) think of what you are going to do with this machince and look at it. Then rent or demo. I recently had problems with my tr320 which the dealer really came though for me, anyways while they fixed the tr320 they demoed me a Volvo/Jcb MTC135C machine nice machine if your not working in mud and would have to use caution in demoliation situations. Other then that smooth responsive machine, that the local dealer has sold twice as much of compared to the tr320. Nothing beats a Case skid
oh ho!! finally!! ordered up a jcb 205 skid steer! it has been quite the long time coming. cab with ac, power quicktach, air ride cloth seat with adjustable joysticks, radio, 2 speed, soft ride, aux hydraulics, lifetime boom warranty, maybe 3 year 0% interest, 2 year bumper to bumper warranty... $37,000. what a sweet deal. could have got a new terex for 8-9k cheaper.
dave how long before you get it?
july they are saying. i do not know if i can wait that long.
Surely the Bobcat can hold together for another 4 months.
"Ohhhh" we're sure you can make it to the washroom and unload the TSL without an accident .......just let it build-up again a couple more times and repeat as neccessary ....LOL
ah, we bought too soon. the local dealer is giving away a "free" pressure washer with each case skid steer purchase! the retirement job for the bobcat (after we get her painted up with new decals and such) will be logging, cement work, and moving bales i would imagine. we might break it logging, but wouldnt wanna scratch the paint on the jcb yet so...
i am a little disappointed the jcb is only available with iso eh controls. i believe they are claiming safety concerns having a switchable control pattern. i wanted to switch back and forth between patterns just for fun during my travels.
They have EH controls and yet they dont have a pattern changer? Thats makes no sense. If there are safety concerns with having a pattern changer, perhaps they should look around the industry. Every OEM that builds a skid steer that has EH controls offers a changer, mini and full size excavators have pattern changers. Certainly the reasons for JCB not offering the changer has nothing to do with safety.
i blame it all on the government and their ridiculous emission regulations, if it wasn't for them i would have pilot controls like last years model and that would be perfect. i talked to some people at jcb and they said they are planning a pattern changer, and maybe sensitivity dial as soon as possible. currently the dealer can adjust sensitivity and such with their computer. they don't know yet if the pattern changer will be backwards compatible as far as reprograming the software. it is surprising to me that the suppliers of the components for the eh didnt hook jcb up right off the bat. how did takeuchi manage to get all the good stuff so fast?
First off, Congrats Dave on your purchase. I hope you are as pleased with the product after you own one as you have been before! . As far as the pattern changer goes, I don't really think it has much to do with anything other than the evolution and life-cycle of the machine. EH controls will cut in on the large platform machines with the T4i emissions changes. I am fairly certain that JCB planned it this way before they even launched these new machines. Likewise, I think the choice of the small frame units being EH without the pattern change option was simply that they wanted to bring the product to market sooner than later and will include it in the first "revision" of the machine. If you think about it, I think it makes sense (and probably is more cost effective) to implement changes in batches rather than one here and one there along the way. We see this on the AG side with Case IH as well. There are always insignificant updates along the way, but most major feature changes are reserved for model enhancements. I'm not saying that these features are not needed, or not good features, just that, while we all want everything right now, sometimes the OEM's have a different plan, right or wrong. At any rate, I will say that the EH controls on the new small platform JCB's are dialed in pretty darn good for not having any user adjustability. Probably one of my favorite things is that the machine has the engine power and hydraulic torque to operate respectably even at low RPM without dogging down. Yes, I know that skid loaders are engineered to operate at WOT, but sometimes it is just not necessary to wrap the machine out, and I hate nothing more than trying to run at a reduced throttle with a skid and having the machine moaning and groaning the entire time. Just one of my first impressions on the new units. Hope you get your new machine sooner than later Dave, but not any sooner than the ones I have sold!
so are they wanting me to buy a machine now, and then trade it when there is a first revision?! cuz that is probably what i would do, so i guess their strategy is working... the whole concept of the jcb was to have more than everything right now. if i was them i would try to make the machine perfect as soon as possible because they are trying to bust into the market; even if they have to do it at a financial loss. i was under the impression that the first revision was going to be the introduction of the smaller machines. i actually did consider delaying my purchase till first revision, but who knows how long that will be, and i think everyone here agrees that would not be a good idea. it doesn't make sense that the jcb would be lightyears ahead of the competition in every other area, yet not offer something as "basic" as a pattern changer. maybe jcb is confident their current machine is so much better than the competition (which it is), that they don't have to worry about it. i really hate to say it, but not offering hand foot controls is going to lose customers, but i guess you have to draw the line somewhere. as long as i hop in the new eh controlled ride, and it operates just like the pilot controlled machine we demoed, i will be happy. i dont really care much about the pattern changer i like iso, i just thought if you ever got into a really tight spot, you might wanna switch to h pattern. at the same time i do like things that are perfect right from the factory, and need no adjustment. it makes things simpler. ic with the air seat, we got the adjustable control pods, i think the standard pod location is perfect, so hopefully i can figure out where to put them. i am happy to hear the machines operate well at less than wot. with having 2 speed, i will rarely run her wide open. since i run 1000 hours a year, i tend to go at a more relaxed pace these days. when do you figure on getting your first 175-205 in?
While I understand the reasoning for getting the machine out and bringing improvements out later (as long as they can be field installed and your not required to trade your machine off to get the features). CNH released the adjustability in their E/H about 6 months after the release of the machine. However not having a pattern changer reduces sales, plain and simple. If your an H pattern operator and I would say that is likely 30-50% of the market you likely will not buy an ISO only machine. Some will I am sure but certainly your limiting your customer base. Especially since if you already have E/H controls, giving the machine a pattern changer is pretty simple. Dave, I am not sure why you would switch to H in a tight spot and run ISO for other operations? I think you would be the only one I have ever heard do such a thing. Typically you run what your most familiar with, especially in a tight spot. Personally I think a skid steer is more controlable with H pattern but I realize that is a much skewed opinion.
The funny thing is that the only sales we have really truly lost are the inability to have H&F controls. In my own experience, it is much easier to get a guy to go from H pattern to ISO. When JCB annouced the new machines to the dealer body, we could order the machine with all three patterns. Their take rate was so low that they dropped the H&F and H patterns.
I'll agree with you on the getting rid of the H&F controls .... but .... it's a simlpe electronic switch to have retained the H pattern combined with ISO .... everyone else has it ..... that buddy of mine (that is looking at the new Case 180) and I went and test rode a new Case 220 ... it had the dual pattern changer in it .... I ran it ISO .... he ran it in H, cause his 1845c is that way and that's what he's been using since '93 ..... so you kinda get the same pissing match's here as the threads over on the Excavator page arguing over "ISO" vs "SAE" .... don't go there .... JMHO ... But it's a DUMB move on JCB's part to save $20 and not offer the pattern changer ..... cheers
Don't get me wrong, I'm not arguing that the pattern changer option shouldn't have been incorporated (or could very easily be incorporated), I was simply trying to explain JCB's point of view, which certainly isn't always the same as ours! I also don't promote one pattern over the other, to each his own. At any rate, it is coming as an option, and you can bet your *ss that I'll be campaigning for a dealer fit kit that will be retro-active to the older units. Now, if that will happen will remain to be seen.
what is a take rate? you mean to tell me they actually offered hand foot controls on the new machines? its hard to believe that is even possible. around here not offering hand and foot eliminates about 95% of your customers at least. all i wanted was a better door handle and switchable controls. h patter has capability you cant get with iso. if you put me in an alley perpendicular to the alley with 4 inches i can drive back and forth with, i can shimmy all the way down that alley just using that 4 inches. i dont see me being able to do that with iso. or eh for that matter. but i can probably learn to get by without doing that. im confident the least they will eventually be able to do is change the pattern at your service center if you want. coming from a bobcat, i would never be able to stand always having my hands on both controls at all times like the case people are so used to. how do you itch your nose?
...............LMFO .................... "STOP AND SCRATCH " ...... especially when you're in that 4" free space alley you talked about .....LOL ....
People around here (including us) used to get hell bent over control patterns. and with machines that were running flawless that was fine. But once those machines started going downhill and we started looking elseware, we became a little more open minded. Its hard to switch. But the bottom line is that the control pattern is a personal preference and what you should be looking at is the things that cost money in the end. We are all used to ISO now with the Cat's and the plus side to that is that no matter what brand machine we want to buy from now on, we will always be able to get ISO pattern controls. Some do charge extra yes, but we will not have to get used to another pattern. After running Pilot and EH ISO controls, I found it nice to go from using all 4 limbs with no ability to control the throttle, to having a foot throttle, flat floor and driving around comfortably with one hand. If you want to shimmy down that small alley you can. Just like anything you have to learn the controls. That was the thing I always heard people say about ISO pattern, can't get out of a tight spot. Yes you can, just have to go about it differently. You CANNOT move the stick forward or backward, just to the side and it will walk away from a wall like any other two stick skid. Is it as easy to figure out? No , is it as controllable at first? no.
The "take rate" is the amount of orders placed by customers for a particular option.
my knees cant take the foot controls anymore, so i would be happy with anything but foot controls i would imagine. one thing i noticed about the jcb joysticks is that they have very low spring pressure. they take no effort. i noticed that case and bobcat joysticks were significantly harder to move around, which i see no reason for.
There is a very good reason for that spring pressure. Having some resistance in the controls makes them easier to be precise. When the controls are too light, it is easy to bump the controls due to the natural bouncing around you get while running the machine, having some back pressure is a good thing. Also I assume you ran the pilot controls not the EH JCB controls. I am dont think you quite know what you will be getting with their EH yet.
spring pressure is nice for finesse. It is still way less pressure than manual sticks. From what I have noticed on our Cats on the farm between the B's and C's is that the pilots are very soft and the EH controls have much more resistance built into them. The soft controls are nice for some stuff, but the harder controls are better when precision is needed or over rough terrain, even though the C rides 100 times better than the Bs. They take some getting used to. one thing we all learned quick was to be careful hitting two speed going around corners, the machine will go straight some and naturally you will push the stick to turn more then when it engages youll wind up in a circle.
haha awesome... i disagree with the precision with more spring pressure idea. if thats the case, we should all want manual controls for precision. in never noticed much resistance with the pilot controlled machine, and when i sat in the eh jcb at the farm show i never noticed any problem with the joysticks, but i hopped in a bobcat and moved them around and was like, "man, this would almost be a problem." im a bobcat guy so my hands and wrists are not in shape for that range of motion, and it seems like you have to get your whole arm involved in the motion, which would make you less precise than just using your hand. it seems to me relaxing your arm is key to being good with a joystick. i thought john deere had a nice feel to it. i will know much more once i get rolling in the jcb...
Call me biased if you will (I do represent both brands), but from strictly a fatigue standpoint, I think that the JCB servo or EH controls are more forgiving than the Case EH controls. As far as lighter touch over firmer touch for controlability/precision, I say to each his own. That is no more easily argued than what pattern is better. It's all preference. My disclaimer here is that no matter what brand, I think we all agree that Joystick controls (be it Servo or EH, ISO or H) are much easier on the operator and ultimately lead to a more productive operator. Dave, I think you will be very happy with the reactivity and responsiveness of the JCB EH controls.
My disclaimer here is that no matter what brand, I think we all agree that Joystick controls (be it Servo or EH, ISO or H) are much easier on the operator and ultimately lead to a more productive operator. Dave, I think you will be very happy with the reactivity and responsiveness of the JCB EH controls.[/QUOTE] I have to agree , If your going to run a machine for more then just a hour or 2 without a break a joystick machine is far easier on your body . Notice I didnt say bladder or kidneys.....
yes, skid steers are problematic that way. sure u got the air seat and the ride control but how smooth can you really be with a 50 inch wheelbase and 16 inch tires and no suspension.
yeah Dave, now just imagine if you had your way and skid loaders did 20+ MPH!!! lol.
haha, hey jcb could easily do it! they got the 43mph farm tractor, and i believe a 60 mph military backhoe. they have the experience in this area! i drove the 43 mph tractor and it was just like driving your pickup. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vW-6-L-LQLE&feature=BFa&list=UUH-LNP1u_zjSF00Ie3ugkFA
with big enough tires they could get close. Going off of the biggest wheelbase each OEM offers currently and using the largest tire possible with no clearance (wouldnt actually work) we can make an assumption of what they could do. Using 12mph as a typical top speed with 12x16.5 tires and using 2500RPM as a typical top speed engine RPM we get a differential ratio of 20.71. For each brand the maximum speed assuming those numbers could be. JCB:17.25mph CNH: 18.69mph CAT: 19.53mph GEHL: 17.89mph Bobcat: 19.04mph Deere: 17.25mph A lot of snow contractors in the area will run their skids on semi tires. An 11R22.5 would put you around 15mph.
Yes, Dave, the JCB Fastracs are sweet rides on the road and in the field. I have only sold a couple (our following is pretty RED in these parts, which is a good thing), but they are very comfortable to operate. Even with Case IH now offering front suspended MFD's and suspended cabs, the Fastrac still has them beat on ride and staying stuck to the ground. durallymax, JCB, and I believe some other OEM's offer a 14x17.5 tire on their largest wheeled skids, which would help your cause a little. I could see where snow pushers could benefit from the extra speed.
I thought Winter was DONE ! ....it's starting to get pretty deep out there again ! ....LOL ...... I don't care how fast people think you can get these skids rolling ....free wheeling is one thing but under load how far do you guys think with the HP available will these units go ? .... after all even the highest Hp skids will NEVER push a 10' pusher Loaded up at 20mph ..... and like most of the vids I've seen without chains too .... give me a break ...... LMFAO !!!!
They don't want the speed for moving the snow as much as they want it for driving from job to job. The ones in the big towns have jobs that are a couple miles apart and with a skid steer that can transport fast they can eliminate the need for a truck and trailer. I havent seen any with chains on around here. Nobody wants them, way to hard on the surface. Some are running snow tires.
"The new line, designed to compete with such market names as Caterpillar, Case and Bobcat, was designed, engineered and will be produced entirely in JCB’s 500,000-square-foot Savannah manufacturing facility. The plant is expected to produce 6,000 machines this year. “The production constraints of last year are behind us,” Patterson said. “And the market performance for this new generation of machines exceeded our expectations by a factor of three.”" 6000 machines a year? if im not mistaken john deere is only making 10,000 a year. the evil plan is already coming to fuition...
A light touch in some machines I think is certainly a matter of choice, in something like an excavator or backhoe where the operator is largely stationary and I agree its an operator preference. However a light touch in a skid steer or CTL is not the same as an excavator. It is nearly impossible to isolate the operator from the movements of the machine in a ssl, the result of that is unintentional movement of the control handles by the operator, this combined with a lack of resistance in the handles results in unintended movement. Its not a JCB thing or a CASE thing its just fact. I dont believe it is even a matter of preference. A skid steer needs a certain amount of resistance in the handles. I was testing this today working in some tight areas, having any lighter of a touch in my machine and I am not interested. As it is you must very lightly manipulate the controls when running over rough ground around sensitive objects. Thats can be a challenge given that your stabilizing yourself with your hands to some extent, at least thats your first instinct. The amount of phycial resistance in the control handles is your shock absorber of sorts to prevent unwanted activation of the control handles.
Let's look at it from two extremes......Take an old NH machine. Those things were great for when you had an itch on your nose (still laughing at that one Dave), but if you got on some rough terrain, and tried to keep a tight hold of the handles, you would literally jerk yourself right out of the seat, because as you were trying to hold consistent pressure on the joysticks, they were pushing back equally hard. Now, take an EH/Servo machine. Because of the lighter effort, you are able to utilize the arm/wrist rests to stabilize your forearm and use your wrist to control the machine. Much easier than trying to keep your entire arm stationary. My point was that in MY OPINION, the slightly lighter feel of the JCB controls is less fatiguing (sp?) than the Case EH controls. I understand your point regarding the need for some resistance and the role it plays in controlling the machine on rough terrain, and I also understand that you don't need a lesson on the difference between NH mech. controls and joysticks, just trying to explain that my argument wasn't whether or not joystick controls need resistance, it was that my opinion was the JCB servo was easier on the wrists over the long haul. I'm sure, however, that after running either for any extended amount of time, one would get used to the level of resistance.
FINALLY, after 4 years of waiting got the JCB 205!! Put 20 hours on it and it IS everything I thought it was going to be, and JCB will clearly pass much of the competition in machine sales. Right off the bat JCB will become a major player wherever there is a good dealer. Everyone who comes to see the machine loves it. Look for competitors to start copying JCB ideas like the meshless bulletproof windows, the modular cab, and yes, even the one arm design. After using the JCB I feel like anyone who would buy a competitive machine would have to be crazy, there is just no comparison between them. Im sure lots of people will, once again, disagree with my comments, but like years ago when I began to comment, this will all be true. The e/h controls are very good, they do not feel like they are electric at all, they just feel natural. The entire machine is very strong in every way; JCB should be very proud of what they have accomplished.
You are certainly a prophet in your own mind Dave. Glad you like your new machine.
Congrats Dave. It's been a long time coming, glad to hear you are happy with your new machine. A couple pics wouldn't hurt!
Meshless bullet proof windows..... Gosh Dave- where do you operate?? My biggest fear was a bees nest. Maybe I have it better than I thought.
HA! Yeah, Dave, "bullet-proof" might be a bit of a stretch.....that is, unless you order the "Ghetto Superstar" package for an extra $3500. In addition to the bullet-proof windows (which are limo-tinted, of course), that gets you hydraulic suspension, spinner wheels, a bumpin' stereo, and an arm-rest-mounted holster that will secure anthing up to a .45 cal. (.45 cal NOT included). (aside from the sarcasm above, the windows are laminated safety glass....think "car windshield")
ah yes, good times making jokes about the jcb... well i got 50 hours on the jcb. jcb has one hell of a machine on their hands. if anyone drove one for 50 hours i would be very surprised if they preferred a competitive machine. the side entry is sweet. the giant quiet cab is sweet. as far as visibility to the right side of the machine, they have their geometry figured out and that boom is just never in your way when compared to other machines. the whole argument of wanting more tension on the electric controls like case and bobcat have is bogus. the light feel on the joysticks is the only way to have it. i am quite surprised with the jcb controls and how sweet they are. i would say accuracy is good right down to 1/8 inch. i would never have believed they are electric if i did not know better, and from the limited experience i have with pilot controls, i would say these are better. they are smooth as glass. the iso controls are sweet, no need for the pattern changer. i also like the seamless shifting from low to high. no jerk and no stalling you can shift while turning and control wont be effected. i am also impressed that as far as controlling the machine there seems to be almost no difference between low and high range as far as accuracy.
Glad you like it Dave and it is going to serve your needs. You're going to be in a select group of probably far less than 500 JCB SSL owners in North America for 2012 JCB ought to be treating you like a rock star!!!
Where did you get the 500 number? They ARE treating me like a rockstar, always calling me to see how i'm doing; i'm always calling them. Its a sweet deal, the way a deal should be. They are churning out new skid steers as fast as they can and that is not fast enough. As I stated before demand for the new machines is 3 times higher than it was projected to be. The local dealer said he has 8 on order for stock and sold 25 of them so far. Did I mention I got a 5 year 5000 hour bumper to bumper no deductible warranty?
2011 Skid steer sales were finalized at about 27,000 units and JCB didn't even rate a measurable percentage unless grouped under others which comprises of Komatsu, Volvo, JCB, Hyundai, Hitachi, Doosan and a couple of others such as Bulldog. Others accounted for about 2%, or 725 units. The 2012 market was expected to grow by 10% or another 2,700 units and considering that Bobcat, CAT, Deere and CNH made up 87% and Gehl/Mustang eat the last 11% up I'd say JCB is gonna be hard pressed to surpass the total sum of 725 that currently makes up "others", now including a Terex SSL (marginal IMO). It's good you like the dealer in your area although having been a Bobcat salesman in the Madison area in my older days I wouldn't go out of my way to say De Forest, Ritchie Implement or Yes JCB are real players in the Wisconsin compact market. I'd give Ritchie better props for selling IH Ag. I am very happy that your dealer is treating you right.
last i heard jcb was making 6000 skid steers a year. that was large frame only. so i assume their production has at least doubled with the release of the small frames. last i heard deere was making 10,000 skid steers a year. sounds like jcb is doing pretty good to me based on what they are trying to accomplish. its only a matter of time now. i believe the milwaukee jcb dealer said he figures he has over 20% of the local skid steer sales. i sat in a new deere skid steer today. its really not fair to compare the 2 machines. the visibility with the jcb is out of this world, you cant see a thing outta the deere. and whats with the joysticks not having an arm rest? (besides the lap bar) it is key to have your joystick right on your arm rest. the ergonomics of the jcb r sweet. did i mention fuel consumption was 1.2 gal/hr on my first tank of fuel? granted, if your doing strictly demo work or working in the forest, i might recommend a machine with the least glass and the most steel near the tires. our bobcat is unstopable if your using the whole machine as a giant demo ball; i would tend to get real nervous taking the jcb into one of those situations.
Dave...I think someone also wants to buy your corn for only $3.50 a bushel too. It's good to be proud of your machine, and I'm happy you're satisfied, but you also have to be realistic about the current position of JCB in the US market. I know they're trying hard, but so is everyone else. Nobody is just going to give them the business. Tell me how JCB could go from selling a total of around 200 machines in 2010 (150 less than Komatsu) to selling more than 6000 (just large frame)? Consider that the US market was 30k machines for arguments sake (actually just under), and consider that half of JCB's sales went to the the US market. That would give them 10% market share in North America with only their large frame. That isn't going to happen anytime soon Dave I can promise you that. Gehl/Mustang have a much more comprehensive dealer network compared to JCB and together they have about 12% of the North American market (both large and small machines), and it's taken them decades to get there with a much better legacy reputation than JCB in the US. The global market was approximately 65k units in 2011 and that would mean the JCB has would have about a 8% global skid steer market share. That's not happening anytime soon either Dave. maybe your source thinks he can tell you anything because you'll take it hook line and sinker. How can Yes JCB "figure" he has 25% market share? His JCB sales rep will have access to the same industry numbers that I get from my bobcat contact so he should know within a few % of what his real market share is. I was over in Milwaukee with buddies for a weekend of drinking and fishing out of Racine right after July 4th and I didn't drive by every job site, but I can tell you that Yes JCB does not have even close to 25% market share unless all their machines are hidden.
I'm not going to get in the middle of this one, but I will clarify one thing: Dave, I'm not sure of what you are being told, but JCB has a goal to build 5000 skids this year out of their Savannah Plant. That is all-inclusive (Large & Small Frame for worldwide production). They feel that if they can really get after it, they may hit 6000 units. All things considered, that is a pretty impressive number for a company who was building so few units just a couple years ago. (keep in mind, I am talking PRODUCTION numbers, not guaranteeing sales). They did just spend over $2M to add more robotic welders and improve a few other processes to increase the daily production capabilities. Hopefully we will start realizing these improvements soon. Will JCB hit 10% market share this year, most likely not. I think officially, they held about 2-3% market share for 2011 (Digdeep, it has been a while since I've seen the UCC data, so my numbers might be off slightly). I would argue that the total sum number of 725 referenced above might be a bit off.....JCB sold over 500 units (514 to be exact) in the first 9 months of initial "ramp up" production (Spring 2011 thru Dec.). I can't believe that the "other" brands only sold a little over 200. Do I believe that this new product is capable of 10% share? Absolutely. As long as there is a reputable dealer to sell, service, and support it, that should be a realistic target within the next few years. At any rate, Dave, I'm happy that you are so pleased with your new machine. Ultimately, that is all that matters.
JCBiron...I am happy that Dave is satisfied with his machine (mentioned in my second sentence), and I will readily admit that it isn't the worst skid steer in the market. However, I'm just trying to be a realist by tempering some of Dave's enthusiasm for JCB's current position in the marketplace. I'm sure someone somewhere thought the AMC Pacer was going to rule the roads at one point too. My industry data is coming from a contact i have within a major OEM so I consider it to be a bit more than directionally correct. That said, there wasn't a perfect reporting system when I left the industry, and I think that is probably still the case. The good thing is that most OEM's look at the same data and accept the consensus on market share. I do agree with you that a strong dealer network offers the best path for JCB to capture market share; however, I think that 10% is a real long shot. JCB doesn't even come close to the network that Gehl/Mustang has globally (particularly in the US) and they produced about 3,400 units in 2010 having been in the skid steer business almost as long as Bobcat. CNH produced about 6,300 units in 2010. if you combined both JCB and Volvo I could see them aiming for about 5,000 units, but that is still a stretch. With all due respect, I see Volvo having much better market share than JCB in North America for two main reasons- 1) They have a better brand value in North America and 2) They have a much better go to market strategy for skid steers compared to JCB due to their aggressive rental strategy as evidenced by all of the new rental stores they keep purchasing. These are captive customers for the skid steers and they significantly augment straight retail sales.
how about seeing some pictures of this jcb in action? i am positive there are no jcb skidsteers in my area so i am not sure about the market sure thing
I've been keeping up with this thread since the begining, mostly because i love the way Dave just keeps going and going on this topic! However i am going to have to side with Digdeep on this. I am no skid steer expert or a dealer but i can tell you that Volvo has a much better name, resale, dealer network, overall perception than JCB. Not that JCB is that bad of a machine (any type for that matter) but they have completely mangled their entrance into the north american market. Just about anyone who buys a new machine that costs as much as a small house isnt going to put their trust in a brand that has performed for decades with rock bottom resale, thin dealer networks, and a negative perception of quality (this is what i understand from reading posts on this site). With that said, if anyone can make it it would have to be Volvo. Great dealer and rental network, loyal customers, good brand name, and many contractors own the whole line of their dirt equipment already. Even though the only difference is a sticker kit, which would be better for JCB overall if people didnt make the corelation. Dont get me wrong, i think those new machines are pretty sweet looking and i would personally like to run one. God knows JCB has the financial resources to design and build a quality machine if they put the cash into it and i dont doubt they did this time. You are talking about a market that has very loyal followers and a lot of owner operators that arent going to take that risk to find out. They will stick with with bobcats, cases, cats, etc because they know what to expect. Same with the large contractors, they dont have the time to mess with something so small as a skid steer. They will call the Cat dealer where they spend millions of dollars every year and tell them to pick up their machine and bring me a new one now! I just dont see how they are going to go from around 700-800 machines to 5000-6000 machines with all those hurrdles....... Its just not going to happen. I will say that JCB is manufacturing these in the USA so lets hope they do well for that reason.
perhaps i am so persistent because everyone seems to be equally persistent with the negativity encompassing anything to do with the jcb skid steer. everyone always says everything i say is wrong, yet every day that passes proves the opposite. i remember in my earlier days i came to the forum casually mentioning that i ran across a new jcb model skid steer and i began to talk about how it looked like quite a machine. and everyone was quick to comment on how it would be a worthless unbalanced piece of junk and then continued to comment that jcb is some tiny foreign company that makes products similar to what you would get out of China. granted, everyone was not like that but it seemed like most were. i'm not loyal to the jcb brand or any other brand for that matter. i want the sweet skid steer regardless of weather it says volvo or jcb or massey ferguson on the side. as far as the gehl/mustang argument... the majority of the gehl/mustang skid steers are from the stone ages. if they dont get on the ball and update they are gonna be outta the market before they know it. the only thing they have going for them are that farmers make up a large amount of their customers and farmers are the only people who would continue to buy such a dated machine. i always said farmers are the only group of people who are willing to pay a premium for the old model over the new one. so we are to a consensus that jcb is producing at least 6000 skid steers this year?
Dave...I would have loved to have you as a customer of mine when I was a salesman. You are extremely passionate about what you believe in and that is a good thing. Don't let all of the banter and ribbing get you down. I am happy that you have something you enjoy operating. Now..about the Gehl/Mustang machines. They're not as ancient as you think (even though they came out with their first SSL in the mid 60s) as evidenced by their pilot controls, ride control (hydraglide I think), optional air rides seats (CTLs and new 4000V), sealed cabs, etc. In other words, they're not just sitting around while others move forward. Regarding their dealer network, many customers value the fact that they have had a longstanding stable dealer network that customers know they can count on to be there, as opposed to other OEMs that change dealers like dirty shirts- Terex, Takeuchi and JCB in many instances. Look at the brands that have had these stable dealer networks and you'll generally see sustained success- Bobcat, CAT, Deere, Gehl/Mustang, CNH, etc. Customers value the relationships they build with these "stone age" dealers selling dependable tough stone age products. And no...we did not reach consensus on the fact that JCB will build 6,000 units this year. My opinion is that it really even a stretch to reach that number combining both JCB and Volvo. That would essentially equate to 8% of the global SSL market and I'm sorry, but it just doesn't happen that fast.
well, i suppose i would be a good customer as long as you had what i wanted. but if someone had something better i might leave you! it was hard leaving the bobcat dealer (but we still have our bobcat) because we have been doing business there for 40 years. but obviously buying a new s205 was simply out of the question, and i was not going to wait yet another year or 2 to see what the new ones look like, im sure everyone here is happy about that. of course i dont feel quite so bad about buying another brand since the bobcat dealer would not return a 400 dollar dash computer that we never used for our bobcat. one problem i have with softride on the jcb is it can only be engaged when the boom is lowered from a button on the dash. that needs to be a button on the joystick that can be activated at any time. also, when softride is on it effects the way the hydraulics work as far as curl and lower speeds and such. i have heard other brand machines are worse, i have heard other machines are better. as far as gehl/mustang; i am aware they have a few decent machines, but the machines that the masses buy have been the same forever, the e series. minus hydraglide and pilot controls and ac. i mean the cab is laughable, as is visibility. i dont have time to look it up, but the jcb website says they are on track to produce 6000 machines this year. believe it, its not hard to believe cuz jcb has a giant global dealer network and a good reputation throughout the world for quality machinery. its not like they are starting from nothing they are already one of the largest construction equipment manufacturers in the world. also i do not understand the concept of a salesman. i buy what i want nothing a salesman says is going to change my mind. i find most of the time i know more about the products than the salesman do anyway.
so i want a pattern changer so i can drive with my right hand and do boom and bucket with left hand. i hurt my right thumb and that is the thumb i use to text. so now if i wanna text and drive the skid steer i have to reach over with my right hand to drive so i can text with my good left thumb.
http://www.equipmentworld.com/jcb-at-full-skid-steer-production-capacity/ jcb is producing 25 skid steers a day it says.
This has been an interesting read. I like to use the comparison tool on the Case-IH site, you can look at similar models side by side. I have yet to find a radial arm machine or even most vertical lifts that come close to the mustang for reach. I was noticeful of this when we had a neighbor load some manure with his bobcat 873 (because we needed tracks and he had OTT) and he could barely dump into our manure spreader. You might think the Mustangs are stone age, but I want reliability and dealer support. (what digdeep is saying) I have never had either of our machines back to a dealer in 7500hrs combined use. (2041,2076) That doesn't mean they haven't broken down, but we were able to fix any problem by calling my dealer and figuring the problem out on the phone. That is worth a lot in my book, because we can't have down time on a dairy. I agree they could improve the cab some and they are in the process. The new cab on their tracked machine is as good as any on the market. New updates will be here by next spring on the other larger models.
I assume gehl track machines are still takeuchi. i have found that specs for machines a lot of times cant be compared, especially reach. there seems to be no standard for measurement, even tho im sure there is an iso standard. i like how when they provide measurements they say "with dirt bucket" or with "foundary bucket" i mean who the hell knows what the real measurement is when they are measuring the bucket too? i find it interesting that all the gehl skid steers look like they are made by different companies. i mean where did the v270 come from? is it actually made at the same plant as the e series? cuz i see no similarities.
All Gehl/Mustang CTLs are built by Gehl/Mustang now. Both brands and all models are made in Madison, SD.
Dave...like I said..I am happy you like your machine, but 6000 machines is going to be a big stretch. I called my friend this morning and JCB had these global skid steer market shares going back to 2008- 2008-2%, 2009- 1.6%, 2010-1.4% and 2011-2.1% . 6,000 units this year would equate to roughly 8% global market share and I just don't see it happening that fast in one year. I would still also argue that Volvo probably has more of its skid steers than JCB coming out of that factory considering that it is stronger globally, ranked #5 in the world in 2010 compared to JCB at #17. i don't doubt that there will be a few thousand machines coming out of the Georgia facility, but remember that they are both Volvo and JCB branded units.
well i make no distinction between the volvo and jcb name. they are all jcb machines. it would have been more interesting if volvo had a hand in designing the machines; i assume they didn't. i do like the jcb coffee maker built into the jcb backhoes. now that is sweet! i wonder if they could rig up a soda fountain on mine... well how many days does a factory operate in a year? i would just take 25 times that number since they are back ordered anyway for my estimate. ah i do like the auto track tension on the gehl machines. so what happens to all the people who had the big takeuchi gehl and now gehl does not offer a big one? ah anyone who comes to the farm to look at the jcb has high interest in it. looks like more locals will be buying them, and i tell them it is a sweet ride and recommend it, obviously. looks like she took just over a gallon an hour of fuel on this tank too.
Yeah...that one has me scratching my head. Maybe they really like their coffee over the pond.
Interesting.......Conquering marketshare is an incrimental process. Going from 1.4% marketshare to 8% is incredibly optimistic over the course of a couple years. I agree with Digdeep in that if any increase is seen it will come through Volvo in NA. Like I have said in the past, there is a market for a skid entry skid steer, JCB just needed to build one that would run. They may have that machine now, but you dont undo 15 years of oh****ts with a quality product and expect the construction world to beat a path to your door. Add to that the stigmatism that the single arm brings to equation, and you have large project in front of you (building marketshare). Lastly the economy will also play a large part in JCB's success of their sales goals.
Hey Dave Have you tried to run that thing into a large pile of dirt or anything fairly hard? I just wondered if the arm flexes very much or if it pushes back to the non-armed side of the machine. I was spreading dirt from a large pile today and i noticed my older machines bucket rolls down when i hit the pile since the pins are worn out. Made me think that the JCBs might be apt to flex quite a bit when you hit the pile with any serious force......... Just curious.
the boom on the jcb is rock solid. there is no flexing. i find the boom to be much stronger than the competitors now that i have hung around it a bit. i filled the 8 foot bucket up with lime; first of all i was impressed the 205 would lift that (just barely), there was no flexing and twisting like you would get with our high hour bobcat. i do plan on keeping grease on the giant pins and bushings on that boom i would imagine. i find the neighbors are most impressed with the visibility of the jcb more than anything else. when operating the machine you do not realize you have one arm. the only time you notice anything is when shaking the bucket. you can tell it feels different, but its not like thats bad. going from 2% to 8 % is incremental! i mean i wouldnt expect them to go from 2% to 50% overnight
i was looking at the jcb while i was driving it today. the boom is not as offset as it appears. its not like its hooked onto the side of the bucket. it starts only about a foot off to one side of the center of the bucket.
the final analysis of the electric iso controls is that if controlling your machine is your number one priority, manual controls are the only way to go, but this is not really a surprise. so far i have noticed 2 things about the jcb that are not perfect. the boom does bump against the side of the cab if you really get wild with her. surprisingly there is only like 3/4 inch of clearance there to begin with. also, the belly of the machine having 50 hours on it has quite a bit of trash accumulation already from the gaps between the cab and frame. i told jcb about it and they sent out the regional service manager and another guy to see what we can do. they have a seal kit we can get to seal up the gaps, and they are looking into the other situation. i told them instead of having the fan suck the air from under the cab and pushing it out the radiator towards the top of the machine, they should pull the air in from the top instead. this setup would require a reversing fan though else it would be the same story with our bobcat again where the radiators always get plugged.
Where is the pictures of this beast? I would love to see some of it in action Dave. Cant say i would ever buy one, but you never know...
Perhaps you could explain what you mean by this?
The boom will rub on the tracks with a loaded bucket while you're turning the machine. Here is a video of what looks like a really new 320T with a mulcher. You can see at about 1:15 into the video where the loader arms have been rubbing against the tracks. http://m.youtube.com/index?desktop_uri=/&gl=US#/watch?v=ukzHgnZJfYw
you must be mistaken.... "the boom on the jcb is rock solid. there is no flexing."
For all the words of praise about the jcb where are the pictures? i have asked before. it does not really matter to me because jcb is not strong in my area. i believe you could quiet down many folks with some pictures of your machine. on reading back through this thread the only pictures posted are mine. if the jcb is so baddass, let's see some pictures.
the boom does move side to side a tiny bit on the jcb like any other skid steer. it does not, however, flex so one side of the bucket is at a different level than the other like everyone thinks it would. i dont understand why i need to put pics up. cant you just google jcb skid steer and see pics? perhaps some day if i'm bored i can try to post pics of the jcb on the interweb.
[/COLOR] Please, don't sound so friggin arrogant. if you are going to talk up your machine so much, maybe back it up. with a few fotos it tends to make things more believable. no reason for me to argue on this thread....that is all it is..one long dribble of jcb hype. don't bother with a the fotos cause i don't are anymore.
im the one who sounds arrogant? im not arrogant that may just be the way it comes off on the interweb cuz i say what is on my mind real quick like and dont take time to make it sound pretty. i own a 205 jcb skid steer and it is sweet and i would never consider buying anything else i dont see what else there is to debate.
Dave please don't take this personal but you really do have to show some REAL pics of YOUR JCB all 'nure-d up otherwise this is getting pretty loony...
LOL! Thats pretty funny.
perhaps i need to clarify what rock solid means. it does not mean literally like a rock. it means i would put my jcb 205 up against any competitive machine for boom strength and their boom would break before mine. as far as the tracked jcb with the boom moving side to side, i fail to see the problem; any skid steer would be like that or worse. i believe the case 450/90xt was known for being the worst for that. and by worse i mean for radial machines. i would hate to see this demonstration done with a super boom with some hours on it. not that thats even a problem in the first place. the problem is people automatically put the jcb boom up to such scrutiny, when really their preferred brand is worse than the jcb. if i was buying such a big tracked machine, the only other machine i would consider is a takeuchi because they are sweet.
i measured the side to side play on the old bobcat and on the new jcb. 1.25 inches total on the jcb 4 inches on the bobcat so...
Dude you are too much. I was starting to list why and I deleted it. You will have to use your imagination.
"Rock solid" means just that....rock solid. Not just a bit less flex than a different brand. It is this type of bold statement, with no real support of the claim, that compromises your credibility, IMO. What sort of evidence do you have that the other boom would break first? Maybe you really mean that your opinion is that the JCB boom is stronger, though you have no real evidence. You are certainly entitled to your opinion but just because you, and maybe the JCB brochure, say it is stronger does not make it a fact. Time will tell. I'm sorry but I feel compelled to say that you (Dave) offer no good reasoning behind your claims other than the fact that you are biased towards the JCB, and apperantly, the Takeuchi...."because they are sweet". How many hours on the Bobcat? I sure hope that the new JCB is tighter. Let us know how tight it is when it gets high hours on it. Maybe then you might be less biased. I'm not quite sure why I have followed this thread. I am all for a machine that will lead the pack with innovation and quality (in support and product). Whatever brand it is. Dave, I just don't find credibility in your positions. I have no problem that you are pro JCB. I am no longer willing to read about your opinons, that you often offer as facts, when you don't have any real evidence to back them up (like the marketing drivel.....do you believe everything that you read and hear from the JCB site, and/or salesman?). I am unsubscribing. Sorry if I have offended you Dave but I have had enough.
does everyone want me to leave the forums? is that what this has come to? well it used to be that when i made a claim about the jcb everyone complained i did not own one so my opinion was not legitimate. now everyone says i cant say anything till it has 10k hours on it. my opinion on the boom is based on the fact that we have broken our bobcat boom down by the bucket many times and the boom on the jcb is built so heavy there is clearly no way it would ever break before the bobcat did. the pins that hold be boom to the machine are 2.5 inches in diameter and 12 inches long! not to mention even if the boom would somehow break it has a lifetime warranty on it... not to mention jcb has had the offset boom on their telehandlers for years, and telehandlers lift way more weight, and can extend it! and they have had the lifetime warranty and the powerboom on their skid steers for what 20 some years now? i looked at the jcb boom by the bucket to compare it to where the bobcat broke and they have a straddle mount pin with 1.5 inch thick steel on both sides! i mean if you break this stuff you got bigger problems! (the other side is not as heavy but it doesn't need to be) i could go on and on with evidence why the jcb boom would break after a bobcats. not to mention i believe i made my rock solid comment after i told everyone every once in a while if you get her rockin the boom will bump the side of the cab so... i feel that when i say something it sweet the claims to back it up are obvious. takeuchis ARE sweet, do i really need to explain why? and yes, i was comparing the new jcb to the old bobcat because those are the only machines i have. if i had a new bobcat and a new jcb i would have given measurements on the new one for comparison. the point was that the boom moves side to side on all machines so why does everyone pick on the jcb.
Dave, I don't know that everyone picks on JCB. You are right that it is sure the unique design, and I hope that it works well for you, and many other new owners. I'm sure that there are several JCB employees that have families to feed as well. And you are right, your speech certainly carries more weight now that you've ponied up the cash for a JCB. And no- don't go anywhere, but you might want to make a $$ contribution to Steve as you singlehandedly are the only person I've seen with his own thread. But down here in my neck of the woods, a little dose of humble pie every so often means that we just let our performance show what we can do. Will it take 10,000 hours for us all to accept a JCB- not likely. But just because it has a 2.5" pin doesn't mean it can't break. And we all know that warranties are written by the marketing guys rather than the engineers. So what might need to happen- is for us all to be rather quiet, until you and the JCB can slap standing productivity standards to smithereens, and have a worthwhile machine left standing at the end of that time. Just my .02$
Not sure why I bother but I go. You cant compare sizes of loader arms, pin sizes and general construction without taking into consideration the design of the machine and the engineering required to make a particular design work. What does that mean? Compare the following two loader arm designs. CASE 445 S-3 and say a John Deere 325. These are about the same ROC (2500). Yet the loader arms are different sizes, Deere being physically larger. Does that mean the Deere has a more durable loader arm? No it does not. Notice that the Deere lifts from the back of the loader arm, meaning closer to the rear pivot point. The CASE positions the lift cylinder closer to the front of the machine. This means the lift cylinder positioning on the CASE does not require such a large arm because the lift cylinder is supporting more of the weight where the Deere uses the loader arms to support nearly all the weight and so the lift arms need to be larger. The moral of that example is comparing the build design meaning the size of certain components on the JCB and Bobcat is like comparing apples and rocks. The JCB design is a complete departure from a traditional design so comparing pin sizes, arm size and so forth is meaningless. Just for general information. Some pin designs use a straddle type pin design, others use a canterlever type pin. The Canterlever design requires a much larger pin. Is the Canterlever better, personally I say no, and yes CASE changed from the saddle design to the Canterlever design. Nobody is taking cheap shots at JCB. Digdeep posted pictures of what is obviously an issue. He also posted pictures of a CASE 380 at a trade show that obviously had some issues with the way the loaders arms were postioned on the machine. There are several of those machines here and they are fine, my machine is fine, but there was obviously some machines that had that issue. It does not mean there is an all out war on JCB or CASE for that matter. This is an open information era. If an OEM makes a mistake depending on who the customer is, it may end up on Utube for everyone including potential customers to see. 20 years ago you likely would not have heard of those same issues. Moral of the story is every OEM must make every effort to get every machine right when it leaves the factory (read better QC). Thats not a bad thing. Your blanket statements, and unsupported claims Dave are whats pissing people off. I know you dont want to take the time to make what you say "sound pretty", but maybe you should.
i dunnno dave? are you productiive to the forums? figure it out.. not my deal and i am happy i don't own a new machine. it is all b...s..t so if you want positive feedback on your bjc then figure out how to gain respect. you know i don't care, but to see my peers.. figure it out i won't sweat a tear when you leave... bye all talk no walk.. you are playing with big boys here so quit the b.s no.. i won't miss you regards, cd
Post a picture of this beast of yours, becasue without one this whole thread is BS IMHO !!!! I own a brand New 2013 Ferreri but if you want to see it , just look up a picture of one on the WWW..ha ha ha ha
Dave...I don't want you to leave the forum, and I wouldn't ever advocate for someone being "run off". All of us can choose to ignore this thread if it's too much. I do really appreciate your enthusiasm, and as I said earlier, I'm glad you're happy with the machine. Keep posting all you want, but expect all of us to give you grief
well this comment is hard to ignore. is this how you gain respect? the big boys? i'm the one who is arrogant?
Come on guys !!! This is stupid. Dave , Can we please see a photo of your JCB.........I am truely intertested in what you have to say. Your opinion has value in my eyes. For that matter all of your opinions have value. Life is too short for this BS.........Let's all get along. Everyone has something valuable to add here. Great bunch of guys, No sense in argueing over nothing here..........Agreed ???
Yes. I love giving Dave "guff", but I think everyone on here has opinions of their own, and that's the way it should be. There would be no use having this forum if all the opinions were the same. I don't even really care if he posts a photo. He likes JCB, and that's OK by me. Nothing wrong with disagreeing as long as everything stays civil.
well maybe sometime i will put up a photo. what would you like to see it doing? i believe i tried to do that a year or so ago and had no luck. my final analysis of the jcb (in the first 70 hours of operation), again, is that it is the only machine i would be happy to be driving 1000 hours a year. if i was just managing and had someone else operating my equipment, i would also consider either case, bobcat, or cat, (because of their fairly rugged construction) whoever was cheapest. Of course that wouldn't be cat, but all the brands have good service around here. the one thing i do not like about the jcb, is that greasing it will have to be more of a priority than it was with the bobcat. on our bobcat, of course, all the bushings are completely gone and the wear is now on the pins and way beyond the bushings on the cylinders and such. everything is loose but it seems to still work fine so... if this were to happen with the jcb, you would have problems. i looked at the pins and bushings and it looks like replacing the main one that holds the entire arm would be easy to replace. just remove a snap ring pull out the pin and replace the bushings. as long as we keep the main arm bushings in good shape i dont see where we will ever have problems.
I care about the photo of Dave's JCB......I 'm proud of my junk equipment.............What say you Dave ? Let's see it........Just sitting still , all new and shiny, is fine with me
would it be that bad of an idea to put the throttle on the joystick?? cuz that would be sweet.
Know that is a great idea Dave.......I would really enjoy that being I have no use of either of my legs due to a War wound....Right now I am stuck using the little throttle knob on the gauge console of all of my machines....
"greasing it will have to be more of a priority than it was with the bobcat. on our bobcat, of course, all the bushings are completely gone and the wear is now on the pins and way beyond the bushings on the cylinders and such. everything is loose" This is just one of dozens of examples in this thread of the stupid crap you post without thinking, and present as fact as though we're all morons out here for not seeing your genius. That is what pisses people off and has killed any credibility any of your "claims/statement of facts" may have had. People have way less issue with any particulars of the "Sweet" JCB's than they do with your style of presentation of your opinions of them. Nobody's asking you to defend or justify your purchase. If you feel you need to justify it to yourself, that's fine. Just don't expect all the people on this forum to automatically agree with you and not call BS when BS is spewed.
Interesting. I've just had a look at a 216, 272, and 257 Cats, (500, 900, and 1600 hours respectively) none of them have anywhere near an inch of side movement at the bucket. Now 4" sideplay.... come on David, some of us left school a bit back. Stop digging.
i dont get it, what part of what i say do people not believe. i have said it before; the bobcat has 9000 hours on it and has always been the last priority as far as maintenance because there is so much else to do on the farm. oil change intervals were between 400 and 700 hours, and grease intervals were between 150 and 250 hour intervals maybe even longer. none of what i say is a big deal, its just life. y would i just make all this stuff up. and yes, there is 4 inches of play in the boom on the bobcat. you have to be using the machine to get that much you cant just move it that far by hand. i dont understand what is the big deal with havin the jcb and people saying im justifying it to myself and everything. its only a skid steer, not that big of a deal. i plan on trading it on a new one long before i would have any problems with it, so we might not get the long term results we were all hoping for...
Hmmm. Not a JCB but I just had to see how hard it was to load a photo. Pretty easy it seems.