I keep having slipping issues with these wheels. I have al the wedges tight, at least as tight as I dare. I think I remember seeing info on these that said the wedges didn't get tightened all that tight, at least compared to normal wheel nuts. Is there an issue with the wedges? Are they too short?
There are different length wedges and spacers. Picture #2 looks like it has some space between the left side of the wedge and the hub so it is not to short. Maybe a bit long. With everything in good condition a 1/2" impact would normally tighten them enough. Maybe replace the nuts. Replace or rethread the studs. A 3/4 impact is more than enough. Is everything clean?
There is space behind the wedges on all of them, or almost all of them. Is there supposed to be space? Things are generally clean, but what would that do? Why is the wheel slipping? I put three new wedges on one of the wheels last year, the wheel that was slipping the worst, and it seemed to help for awhile. Do the wedges wear?
It's the wrong wedge. The Dayton rim clip has two components that make them work, the wedge, which is the obvious part, and the heel. The heel is on the opposite side of the wedge on the inside of the clip. When you install Dayton clips and begin to tighten them, that heel has to contact the surface of the hub just before they're fully tight in order for the nut to force the wedge between the rim and hub. If the heel doesn't contact the hub the nut simply binds up the wedge, doesn't send the wedge fully home.
Run the cursor over each type and it will give dimensions. * https://bwp-nsi.com/parts.php?AppID=699
The ONLY good thing about Dayton rims...back in the day they could be changed on the side of the road with simple hand tools, no need for a 1" impact. That's it, full stop, the only good thing about them. But the opposite, they're a PITA, and there are way too many clip choices, there are different width spacers, three spoke, five spoke, six spoke, and depending on spacer they all use different clips. Did I mention they are a PITA?
East coast Class Eight mag wheels. Minnesota Mags.
To note--with a load on in low gear those wheels when just barely loose, like the ones posted, a person can walk along side and hear a clicking sound.
Not saying the case here, but back in the day, most of the time a spun hub on a rim = hard driving. Probably a good thing Dayton's are not as common these days. Always would see a truck or 10 going down the road with a set wobbling from not being installed diligently. In today’s age with cell phones and 911 can you imagine the calls received of “this truck is going to lose there tires”.
Just one wheel or all of them. As far as mechanical, I can't tie most guys boots, but I do know that spacers collapse over the years, and the ears on the inside of the hub get worn. I have seen wheels slip past the back of the hub
you have the wrong wedges. The heel of that wedge pictured, should be on the rim shoulder, not down in the crevasse. There are a few different wedges.
I got a 4' ratchet and would just tighten the dickens out of it. There's a farmer in your neighborhood with a cheater pipe. Usually when I get the rim cupped from over tightening , so the wedge bottoms out, I throw one of the little spacer shim rings in it. I'm that guy. And truck shops "clicking" had us pulling a third member once. The guys called and said "truck is clunking terrible" on a job site. Pulled both axles expecting a broken one. Limped it home and pulled third member, to find it perfect. Then I remembered that we had changed a flat tire a while before, and my dim setting light bulb lit up. 4' ratchet seated it right down.
I'm no expert, but I agree with the others that those do not appear to be the correct wedges. All the Dayton wheels I've dealt with, a 3/4 drive ratchet (so about 2-2.5' long) or a 1/2" impact is all thats needed to get them tight. IMO if you are having to torque the ever living crap out of them to stop slipping it's just a bandaid masking the problem.
I'd be looking real hard at the hubs and spacers as well, as long as he's certain he is getting the nuts tight enough. Those wedges might be fine, or they might all be wrong. It's a picture, the previous owner may have swapped them all to cover-up an underlying issue. Back in the day, if we had issues with a slipping wheel, the spacer and all the wedges got replaced. Then, if it still slipped, we knew the hub was bad. I don't think I could find a tire shop within 150 miles of me that would have a guy that could look at that hub, and go grab the right wedges. @Acoals , you may have to order a set of wedges from your dealer, so you can verify if you have the right ones.
What would go wrong with the spacers? There doesn't seem like there is much to them. What about the wheels, what would I be looking for? I have all four wheels slipping. By the time I start replacing the hubs I think I would look into trying to convert the whole thing over to Hub Pilot. Dealer? This is a 1992 Ford . . . And I doubt the truck parts stores are going to be able to figure it out either.
They can collapse from being over tightened with a 1" gun.
Doesn't take much wear for them to not grip the rim properly. I haven't been around spokes for over 25 years, but my first glance is the wedges are wrong, or you don't have them right enough.
A tire shop with someone that has been around for a long time would help, but the tire industry is hard on people and old guys are mostly crippled and retired.
So I just did some measuring; There are at least two different sizes of spacers. All the wedges are the same; 1.5". The spacers appear to be 3 3/4 or 3 7/8 (Measuring on the truck with the wheels on, they might actually be 4") and one that is 3.5". The wheel that has the 3.5" spacer is the one that has slipped the most, and the heel of the wedges are actually against the spokes on that wheel. According to the info on Truck Shop's link that spacer and wedge combination may be correct. None of the nuts are loose, if anything they are probably too tight. I tried them with a long 1/2" breaker bar and they are tight, I don't remember but I probably tightened them with a 1/2" impact.
Any time you have wheels off, always inspect the hubs for wear. The part that flairs out. It would be like the built in wedge. Most times if the spacer is bad your wedges will bottom out. You should always have a gap between the wedge and the hub around the stud. If it bottoms out it's not really holding the rim tight. I remember my father doing as Shimmy described with the hammer to see if it ran true. It was the sledge they used for breaking down the tire off the rim.
You have a lot of fingers
Oh no not that AI stuff! You didn't count his toes. * I don't do beards.
All I'm saying, with all things perfect, which there isn't a Dayton setup out there that is still perfect because things get swapped out over the past, like, 80 years. Rims, spacers, clips become mismatched, or worn, the studs get bent, threads of studs and nuts get galled (which produces false torque), these wheels are no longer perfect if they're aged. My thoughts, if it's a daily driver, replace the spacer rings, the studs, and the nuts. If in that process you find you have a mismatched rim, replace that too. And if you still have the murder ring split rims, replace all the rims with one piece tubeless. My point, to have a strong structure, whether it's a house or a building, you have to have a firm foundation. These components are the foundation of Dayton wheels. And the most important part is the correct clip. As I mentioned previously, there's a heel on the clip, on the opposite side of the clip from the wedge with bolt hole in between. With proper rim, spacer and clip, as you begin to tighten those nuts in series, forcing the wedges in, at a point just before they're fully tight that heel has to contact its mating surface with the hub. At that point, continuing tightening of the nut forces the wedge squarely in between the hub and wheel making a secure and positive lock. If that heel does not contact the hub, continued nut tightening will result in bending the stud and the wedge binding up instead of driving it squarely home. Your pic clearly shows the heel of the clip is not in contact with the hub. Wrong clip.
Which leads to the problem of the idea being able to change out along side road. To get them mounted correctly takes a little extra time and know how, unlike a Budd wheel. Not saying the OP is incapable but somewhere along the way items got changed out that are incorrect by someone without experience. The trouble with Dayton's is too many design changes/options.
Exactly, as I posted that earlier, too many options, too much time has passed for things to get sideways, and now days the knowledge of how to deal with Dayton rims is all but lost, which is good with me if Dayton rims would get lost as well, but here we are. The Budd wheel was a better choice, but they still had their issues. Hub pilot wheels are the cats meow, but as I mentioned previously, smear some anti seize on the hub with your finger, especially if you have aluminum wheels on steel hubs.
Homo Erectus Dayton Hubs/Wheels. * Homo Neanderthalensis Stud Pilot. * Homo Sapiens Hub Pilot.
Where do these fall TS?
In the scrap bin.
Man am I glad those wheels have more or less disappeared. Ugly and heavy.
I had some trouble getting the last steer brake drum that I needed. I'm sure there's not a lot of demand for them anymore.
Heavy.
Those look like old motor home wheels, are they?
Thanks, that sounds like what I will do, probably replacing the wedges as well. The rims are one piece, and I think they match, but I will check them pretty carefully. I have actually been looking into switching the whole thing over to Hub Pilots. Things have been pretty busy this week with snow and other things, so I haven't had a lot of time but it might not be that big of a deal; would need hubs, drums and wheels. Has anybody done this? It looks like it might be maybe starting at $1600/axle, but short of pulling a hub/drum off and dragging it down to Truck Equipment to measure things I won't really know exactly which parts it needs. And don't worry, I am in full agreement with all the Dayton haters . . .
Model/brand of drive axle?-----------You will find Most all will use a Conmet aluminum hub. With a complete bearing/race set #429 inboard, HM218248 bearing HM218210 race outboard with a 47697 wheel seal. With eight 5/8" axle studs with or without centering cones. #1657 brake drums are the normal.
I am kind of like Truck Shop said. Model and brand? Fords I dealt with liked Rockwells. Pull a hub and get your bearing numbers. You may have to get the bolt on brake spiders with the deal but go to a salvage yard. Get the whole shebang. You will be happy at the end. Will more likely find that in Budds than hub piloted.
The drives are Rockwell, RD2214 SN FNN195 According to my understanding of the number the hub and brake designations are both NONE (N), I assume indicating that Ford put on hubs and brakes at the assembly plant. I am a little fuzzy on all the different wheel types. Isn't Budd the setup that had two lug nuts; the inner wheel bolted on with a stud/nut thing with a square drive with left hand thread, and then the outer wheel used more ordinary nuts? If I am going to go to the trouble of changing everything over I want the wheels where you slap them on like a pickup and run the nuts down, I think that is Hub Pilot?
Come as a complete units drums on, ordered for assembly line.
You want hub pilot
If you have the last 7, 3 letters and 4 numbers, of your VIN, a dealer can tell you what came on that truck. I had a Ford with a bad Cast Spoke (Dayton) wheel, Dealers kept saying no longer available as Meritor killed the Dayton brand. One dealer in Wi told me I could put a hub pilot wheel hub on and the bearings etc. were the same, although I needed hub pilot wheels too, they had the correct hub in stock. I didn't want to go that route with 3 spoke wheels and 1 hub pilot, especially as that truck had 24.5" wheels which were not common for me. The lady parts person found a new cast spoke hub made by Gunite for me. This was 10 years ago though. I think 22.5" wheels are more common. On a cast spoke hub 20"hub is for 22.5" tires, 22" hub is for 24.5" tires. FWD
In 2026 it will be hard to find any "budd-stud pilot hubs". Most everything is hub pilot in yards. * Will add--I did a major clean out of company bull pin a little over a year ago, in it was 6 Conmet hub-pilot hubs complete with bearings, advertised-no replies, so in the scrap those went. Asked 150 a hub.
Seems like a good thread, Working with an older international truck, Daytons, would like to put 3 rail chains on it but there isn't an inch of clearance between the tire and the springs, Any good way to shift everything out just half an inch to an inch?
This whole thread is a good education for sure, appreciate reading the input. We have an old IHI 2574 dump with Daytons all the way around..just a bush rig so will likely leave it alone. Don't know anything about these, but do know my buddy slipped his to the point of ripping off the valve stem. Turned out somewhere along the line someone had installed the wrong wedges on it (old Ford 8000 single axle dump)
I agree. Looks like everyone else answered your questions. Never went from Dayton to hub piloted personally but that would make the cat meow. Have not went to a yard in several years as well.
What size tires you running right now?
11R/22.5
If your rims are pretty bent from the clips, and with the work you are doing, you plan on keeping the truck. Just go ahead and swap it. If your tires are good, at least you won't have to buy rubber. Buy 22.5 rims. If you plan on putting on aluminums, put in the long studs when you put on the hubs, that way you can run steels or aluminums. Some guys do steel inside and aluminums on the outside. but you have to get the long studs to run aluminums. And just for clarity, earlier when you were talking about budd style- stud piloted wheels. Those wheels use two nuts per stud, the long threaded inner nut that is square drive, with tapered nut flange to center the wheel. Then a second nut on the outer rim, also tapered to hold the outer rim on. There are left hand threaded for one side of the truck, and right hand threaded for the other side. Inner and outer nuts will match threading, and the left hand side will have a "L" stamped on the square of the inner nut. There are longer inner ones for if you are running aluminum wheels. Rims must have the tapered stud holes. The threads are really shallow on budds, and they are easily damaged or rust to each other. And there's 20 of them to take off, on each set of duals. Which is a killer with hand tools on the side of the road. They can have a tendency for the inner nut to loosen when you are just on the outer nut with the impact, there's a cut off special wrench you can put on the outer nut, and hold it, and retighten the inner, or else you are cutting the nut off. But you shouldn't have to worry a bout any of that, because you are going to hub pilot. Take off one steer and one drive and head for the truck parts shop. A local quarry just did a old crusher trailer and he got all the parts pretty easily.
I have done the Dayton to hub pilot on my different Mack’s over the years. All with Mack axles but still the same process from start to finish. Easy to do. Do not regret it. Other than the initial cost it all savings after. Brake jobs are quicker and less costly, parts are readily available, easy to work on, weight savings, aluminum rims do dress things up… If you have other trucks with hub pilot only need one type of spares assuming same size. If you did want to change from 22.5 to 24.5 or vice versa, just unbolt one for the other.
The nice thing about hub pilot---it's a european design. One thing for sure it isn't rocket science.
So I called the nearest Truck Equipment that I have used before and asked them about sourcing the hubs and drums to change things over to hub pilot. After some general confusion and head scratching they decided they needed the bearing numbers. I don't have much confidence in these guys, as they generally send the wrong parts twice before we find the right thing. I found the Merritor catalog, and I pulled one of the hub/drum assemblies. I am trying to figure this out myself before I call them again. This is what I have: Inner bearing: Timkin 594A, Outer Bearing Timkin 580. The axle shaft has eight studs. It seems that the biggest issue is going to be making sure that the overall length of the hub and drum, from the point where the axle flange bolts to the hub, back to the lip of the drum needs to be the same as the Dayton wheels. It seems the Merritor catalog lists Hub and drum assemblies, with the correct drum for each hub. Are those dimensions going to work with the brakes that are on the truck? In other words is the brake assembly that is currently on it the same as if the truck had been specced with hub pilots in the first place? Is the 14-16062-1000MTB possibly the correct assembly?
Ahh, now we're getting down to the nuts and bolts of this thread. I hope someone has the knowledge to sort this out, but it ain't me.
14-16062-1000mtb for {Steel wheels} short wheel studs. 14-16062-1030mtb for {Aluminum wheels} long studs. The center number1029mtb has no tone ring for ABS. Basically the same except for items like axle studs length/dia. Wheel studs, Drum dimensions-- of depth measured from floor to bore. Bore is likely the same as pictured. * The housing spider flange is what holds brake spider/s-cam housing. Most spider flanges are welded to housings in same spot distance wise measured from end of spindle to outboard edge of flange. If the truck has Hendrickson RT walking suspension those brake housings are where they are no matter what, no area to move those. The best way to know the distance of both hubs with drums installed is stand hub straight up measure from floor to outside edge of outboard bearing cup. * Yes 14-16062-1000mtb would providing bearings will cross and the distance I described is correct. Mind you there are different depth of drums so a lot can depend on that alone, hub could install fine but need a deeper or shallower drum, and they make those. Once hub is installed, can measure from outboard drum mounting flange to inside edge of shoes, and add drum thickness for total drum length.
A key thing to note is dimension {C- distance between cups} 4.307, there are hubs with different distance.
Had a truck, they worked fine, a little fussy in getting the tire to run straight. Had an equipment trailer, I had to tighten them each trip. One 20 mile trip with a light load, a wheel fell off, rolled by itself 500 feet. That was the end for me & that trailer. I do see wheels with two steel blocks welded to the wheel. I believe DOT would red flag your truck if they catch you with blocks welded to the wheel.
I've seen many rims with those little blocks. They are there to provide a sliver of protection for the valve stems if the hub happens to slip. Usually see them on tube-type wheels.
Is there any cross reference information out there for Conmet parts? I have been all over their website and can't really seem to find anything. The reason is because it seems that a Conmet hub would be about half the price of a Merritor unit. My understanding is that Conmet is a major aftermarket supplier? For instance it appears from the information I can find that Conmet 10082218 might be correct based on bearing numbers and what measurments the part supplier sites list. Key dimensions I cannot find are the distance between bearing cups and the drive flange hole pattern. All of the merritor hubs listed for the axle in question have the same bearing distance. (4.307") Of the different hubs only one is anything other than 8, 5/8"-11; 7.00" for the drive flange, and the only difference is 6 studs vs 8. Are these specs possibly common enough to warrant "trying" one of these hubs? $400 x 4 adds up pretty quick . . .
Conment is a major manufacture supplier, such as Freightliner, PacCar, Hendrickson and more. The Conmet hub uses bearing Set #429 594A bearing/592A cup & Set #430 572 bearing/580 cup. Now I have run up to the shop this morning--I have one hub left I can measure distance. I would bet my next SS check it's 4.307. If you call a Freightliner dealer and give them #10082218 they should {I say} should be able to check the specs. This leads back to what I posted in #35. * https://www.finditparts.com/products/8026419/conmet-10082218 * These come with preset spacers for bearing preload, you can either use the spacer or toss it and manually set preload. Manual setting requires using the two nut two locking washer system, which you will have from the old Dayton hubs. * Meritor has always been higher that a cats ass in the top of a redwood.
I measured a 10082217 hub, an aluminum hub. Axle stud spacing is the normal 7". Bearing spacing is 4.307, all use the 47697 wheel seal. 8 hole axle gaskets are all configured for 7" spacing, only difference is some are punched for a HD 3/4" stud, but 5/8" is the very common size for axle studs.
One of these days I want to convert my twin steer from Daytona tos hub pilot. I was hoping I can just unbolt the axles and slide in some used ones
I ordered a ConMet 10082218. Bearing spacing is good, almost everything else is good, and it weighs a fraction of what the old spoked wheel and drum weighs. One major difference is the spacing between the outer bearing race and the drive flange face: the bearing is set .75" deeper on the ConMet hub. As I see it this would pull the axles .75" out of the differential, which will work great until an axle breaks . . . So I get digging into the axles using this reference , page 25, 26, RD22-145, RR-22-145. I am using the rear axle, right side as reference. Basically it boils down to two choices, An axle that is 43.13" long (what the truck has currently with the Daytons, too short for the new hubs) Or an axle that is 43.99" long, making it .11" longer than the .75" I need. Will an axle pushing .11" further into the center section be an issue?
Probably not--but using a small diameter tube, shove the tube in till it stops on spider, scribe mark on tube even with axle hub flange. As long as there are long enough splines, it shouldn't be a issue & possibly cut that off axle, just under 1/8". Axles are manufactured with leeway for different assemblies. Need to remember gaskets are .030 to .040 thick.
Questions: 1) Are there any good aftermarket axle suppliers? Merritor is, as previously noted, expensive. 2) The existing axle setup uses a tapered cone, split lock washer, and nut. The "Gasket" was RTV. Generally a proper gasket is better than RTV, is that the case here, or do the tapered cones require RTV? 3) I can't pull the left side axles anytime soon because the truck is sitting too close the the shop wall, but it seems from the book that the drive axle group uses two axle numbers, set cross corners from each other. I have pulled both right side shafts, and they both measure as expected according to the book, is it safe to assume the other side shafts will mirror the right side?
Correct. * Use 11-14418 gaskets, either style fastners cone or no cone will work. * Try a yard, the one I use near by has axles sticking out their ears at 1/3-1/2 the price.
If you get a used axle, make sure the splines are in good condition, the thickness and width of the splines can wear down over time especially if the side gears arw worn. FWD
That is the reason for change to fine spline axles.
Back to different style of wedges for a moment. I am replacing tube type 20" wheels with tubeless 22.5. I bolted them up last night and it seems like the wedges are not seating as deeply as they did before. I can measure later but I'm guessing I have about 1/2" between the wedge and the face of the hub. Are there different wedge styles for the two styles of wheel? I have 5/8 studs, looks like the only difference in the linked chart is the depth of the wedge based on the spacer width.
Did you get new spacers, and were there small spacer rings also on the spacers on the old ones? Need to see if the wedge ring is welded in the same spot/ distance. A lot of old rims have been cranked on pretty hard, and that can crush the rim ring, your new ones won't be squashed.
Same spacers, just a single ring. I'll take a look at the wedge ring location. Very possible my old wheels have been abused! I'm not too worried about it, just want to make sure nothing is going to move if the wedges aren't set in enough
Crane Operator hit all the high spots answering your question.