hi I just got my starter rebuilt backhoe been sitting since summer but now it wont start... I got a new battery cleaned the posts I made sure fuel was getting to the injector pump etc.. but its not starting.. here is a video I made
Grinding too long on the starter. If it doesn't start right away, it probably isn't going to. I would check the fuel shut off. I don't know if that machine has a manual shut off, or an electric one.
Dam Dude.. do u WANNA buy another starter?? Take the fitting OFF the top of the pumps TOP COVER.. Take the return line off THEN unscrew the fitting.. Let the battery charge up.. & give her a few quick turn overs.. Use the 1000 method.. 1, 1000 2, 1000 up to 4 or 5.. then STOP.. give it a rest.. go smoke a cigarette.. then come back & do it again.. The engine will not start w/ the injectors cracked open.. Wait until u get fuel THERE, THEN tighten them up.. The fuel WILL come out of the top of the pump so don't be conserned about THAT..
OH, & make sure the solenoid CLICKS when u turn on the key.. Just because u have 12v AT the sol. doesn't mean its working.. listen for the CLICK.!!!
ok ok ok sorry didn't know I was cranking too long as on a car you can crank long time but ya.. I can not take the return line off the pump the cap twists the pipe so its just going to brake off.. I did loosen the the bleeder screw on the injector pump and fuel came out … when I was pumping... I did have the battery charger charging all night.. and it still starts at that low speed.. is it not supposed to start fast like a car engine does.. I was also told try changing the battery cables.. and whats the sensor above the starter? ill have to add a pic.. and it doesn't even fire with starter fluid shot button too much and the engine doesn't turn I guess too much pressure so I let it sit 20 min before trying... ill got do that. ill unhook the power wire at the injector pump and listen.. and sorry didn't realize that was too long.. on the starter
so im uploading new video.. so basically you will see the relay in the injector pump is working.. it clicks and I show I I bleed the screw and also I not sure with the starter spray you see in video if that basically tried to fire it or fluke but then goes to slow starting.. and I show asking if this is a sensor for the engine that ti wont start either. and if so how to test it... but give it a bit my internet slow so it be a bit to upload a 1.30min video and I made sure I didn't crank more then 4 seconds cuz on my Leyland tractor its diesel and it cranks over a lot faster and a smaller battery too and you can crank it lot longer.. is this engine harder to start then a Leyland then
OK.. slow down.. The engine will NOT START turning over slow.. it'll bleed the air but not start.. it needs HEAT from the pistons going up & down FAST to ignite the fuel that's being sprayed into the cylinders from the injectors.. BUT seeing u have the injector lines OPEN.. its NOT GONNA START .. How about instead of taking the fitting off the top, u loosen the side cover & get it dripping fuel.?? Just loosen the 2 screws & get the fuel fast dripping.. BTW>> USE 2 WRENCHES taking off the fitting on the top.. Duh..
The "proper" use of starting fluid is>> Get the engine turning 1st.. then spray/MIST the fluid over the intake.. NOT spray an azz-load of starting fluid in the intake & THEN crank the engine..
well I dunno how fast this starter is supposed to turn? having the injector lines open and cranking the engine no fuel comes out.. no fuel comes out when using and I mentioned I took the bleeder screw off of the injector pump and then did the manual bypass and tried to start and the fuel came out.. not sure what the top screw is if that's a bleeder too.. and I dunno if the turning over you hear if that's too slow or not.. haven't had the backhoe running for 6 months had it sitting.. and no fuel comes out the injector lines at the pump as I cracked that.. and like I mentioned it doesn't even start with the starter fluid spray bomb when you shoot it in the engine.. and only time it starts fast is the split second at the beginning as I have the charger put on 100amps in activate mode as for 2 wrenches cant.. but I guess I could used vise grips to grip the pipei didn't wanna kink the line to try to take off fitting
ah ok ya I tried that too hit the button as its turning over.. that does nothing... and that's a pain in the but since you gotta hold the buttons in.. the way I always did it and in winter was press the starter fluid button 1/2 second and then hit the starter button and then would fire up but I only was pumping more in as it wouldn't fire off the split second spray of starter fluid that I normally do.. that's why I was asking what the sensor looks like above the starter does if that is causing this engine not to start.. and if in video you hear if the startrer should be spinning faster.. as it doesn't.. but guess I was doing it wrong
but I guess ill also have the battery cables replaced too since was told they look old so I dunno
There IS NO BLEED SCREW on that pump.. IDK what ur loosening..
ok well whatever this screw is I unloosened it and had the fuel come out when I cranked it over ,my finger is pointing at it
If it's having a hard time turning over sounds like the hyd pump is loading up, it'll either have an electric destroke solenoid on the right side of the pump or a manual "T" handle screw on the top. Play with the loader control while cranking, ie hold it in bucket curl position, it should crank way faster if the hyd pump is loading up. If that's the case we can go from there.
soo youtube keeps crashing and making me start the upload over.. but I had done another video I had the charger on activate over an hour at 100amps so kept putting 100 amps in not charge mode.. I retested.. it would crank fast for a second or 2 and goto the the semi slow sound you seen in the orginal video so I did your hydraulic test.. didn't changed.. I pulled the loader arm up so as its cranking the bucket is lifting in the air but still cranks same speed no faster no slower
in the video I tried to upload I asked about this sensor you see in the pic.. I wanted to know if it does anything above the starter.. I cleaned the contact but dunno what it does or how to test it etc.. don't know what that sensor name is if you guys know be good too
that's the oil pressure sensor, has nothing to do with starting if it's cranking and has 12V to the injection pump solenoid. kinda sounds like maybe your "jump start" setting is doing a lot of work and tripping after a second or so. And/or the battery is weak (could be killed from cranking too much, could be half drained). And/or you have some bad connections in the battery cables. Or the hydraulics locking up, try the steering while cranking to see if that changes. I'd swap a known good battery into this, or try a good pair of jumper cables with the ground to the starter body/bolt, and positive to the positive cable terminal on the solenoid. What gets hot after cranking for ten seconds? feel all the connections and the whole length of the cables and the starter and solenoid. carefully till you know they won't burn you, or mist with water to see what "steams".
ah ok I figured it was a sensor for the fly wheel since its right there.. well I bought the battery last month brand new made in march I guess. i even tried boosting while set to 100 amp jump start.. i tried booster cable directly to the solenoid to the truck and a bolt on the the side of the backhoe nothing.. the cables on the solinode.. the red one i just made i changed the wire that goes to the internals a relay.. the other wires alternator i guess and whatever... and the small wire that is the solinode disengage you mentioned and then the button from the switch... all been polished so they make good contact.. i did try taking the battery cable off and run directly from the truck that didn't work not enough power draws too much i didn't wanna do the run 10 seconds as i was told i going to burn it out.. only 4 seconds so i haven't gone very long anymore... but i also had the truck running 20 min idling to charge truck but maybe not long enough.. i also set the 15amp charge for an hour or so too..... i starts fast for a second or 2.. then drops down to a constant speed.. not a constant fast speed.. ill get back to you by turning the wheel and starting and ill let you know
so i didn't do 10 seconds but about 6 to 8 seconds where my finger is pointing is what got hot the nut the fat cable is from battery the cable underneath with the black rubber be the alternator the red electrical tape/wire goes to the relay for lights etc small pole the blue wire is the hydraulic pump destroke the other wire is the starter button i set it to 15 amp charge and ill wait till it goes green all i can think of is change the battery cables... but it doesn't even fire on a mist of starter fluid id take another video later also turning the wheel while starting does nothing.. still cranks same slowish speed no change
so my video finally uploaded from this morning this is what i done.. but i realize now that sensor is oil pressure
so while i wait for my last video i took to upload i did what i didn't want to do what guy said to do use 2 wrenchs on the return line where i told him i cant.. so i clamped vice grip on the steel line and then wrench it but didn't work.. pipe is still twisting and since i don't have spare steel tubing i don't wanna break it off... but i hear the fuel going back into the tank when i manually run the fuel pump lever for priming.. my next question is.. how do i test if this pump is turning is it not run off a timing chain or so? or is it like my Leyland its just a gear.. as i was wanted to know this pump maybe not turning.. and to comment on earlier about not using the starter fluid till after engine turning.. i have done that i just couldn't do it and hold a camera same time.. but i tried again had it cranking did 1 then 2 shot no more and no change.. not even a potential firing and should that starter be running a lot faster? from the video i sent and when i post the finaly video as the charger says the battery is full
...
another question how you test for compression maybe it doesn't have compression? as I only have a compression tester for gas... I just frustrated.. spring time it quit as the fuel filter and such finished off the starter.. I get startered repaired and new battery.. and it wont fire... as I figured shuld have just fired up no problem
Wait a second, it wasn't running this spring when the starter died? The whole story might help figure this out. Starting from whenever it started and ran normally. Don't jump to compression yet, you don't have fuel coming out of the injector lines right? that's the first thing to investigate, then it needs to crank faster, and THEN you can worry about compression. I think if you hear fuel gurgling back, then you don't have to worry about removing the top fitting that thepumpguy said. Yes, this is gear driven just like a leyland. In the pic in post #21 there's a cover with two small screws behind the hose, crack that so and crank to see if you it drips like thepumpguy said, and see if it squirts fuel out the injector lines. if not, then remove that cover and crank to see if the one ring is turning inside there. Instead of taking that cover off, you can remove the inlet at the back of the injection pump, and see if the fuel level goes down as the engine turns, either way will tell you if the pump is turning.
no I said it was running till the starter bit it.. back in the spring.. and has been sitting since may so I took another video and uploading.. ya no fuel is coming out of the injector lines.. no fuel is coming out at the injector line at the pump its self... well I had unloosened at screw I showed in the pic and the guy never said what that screw is.. as I thought it was a bleeder line.. and fuel comes out that screw when you crank the engine over... ill take a look behind the hose.. and I took a video to show that the fuel is going back into the tank as I took the hood off and took the line off at the tank for the return line and cranked and the fuel was pumping out there.. but ill re try the cover I didn't see screws behind the hose earlier just the cover screws but ill look now
ok so here the 2 videos I loosened the 2 screws nothing came off so I took the screws off and peeled the gasket off some so then the fuel poured out... then I just put cover back on as I guessing your wanting to know if there is fuel there or not... but I cranked more again and no fuel coming out of the return line just some air bubbles but since it cant crank fast so ya... I doubt I working on more today as its starting to get dark.. and I getting frustratred… it should be firing.. it should fire on starter fluid and it doesn't let me so ill look at it tomorrow spent all day and still haven't gotten any closer
How do u know u have ether in the bottle.?? 1 more thing.. letting the machine sit that long might have frozen the metering valve or pumping plungers inside the pump.?? I think your GOING TO HAVE TO pull the top cover off the pump.. While your resting, google>> RoosaMaster metering valve.. THAT will give u an idea of what your looking for. Its those 3 screws on top holding the cover on.. but that return line is gonna give u problems.. When I have a line stuck like that.. some love taps w/ a hammer & heat from a propane bottle will loosen it up.. U GOTTA be careful w/ that propane.. I THINK I WOULD just ring the line off & buy another.. than take the chance of burning my machine to the ground.!!
you have two problems, it's not cranking fast enough for long enough, and there's no fuel coming out. It cranks fine for a second or two in each video. To ME, that sounds like your battery charger is tripping at that point, you can test that by taking the battery inside where it's warm over night, leaving the charger on all night, then putting it in the next time you want to try it, but don't put the charger on the battery, just start it with the battery and see if it turns good for a second or two and then slows way down, or what happens. You could try the same with the jumper cables, try it with and without the cables, then repeat so you know if the battery is draining fast. It should crank like the first second for 10-20-30 seconds until the battery loses power, or the starter goes up in smoke, which it may have already, don't know. The other issue is no fuel out of the injection pump. Turn the key on, you get 12V at the injection pump right? disconnect that wire and touch it back to the stud, you should hear and feel a click, does it click? The other things to check are if the pump is turning, the ring under that cover that you took off. Or the inlet tube removed, and see if the fuel sucks down and out the return on it's own. Then if the metering valve is stuck, you can take the cover off after you get that return tube off. I'd cut that return 2-3" up from the joint and splice in a rubber hose, it's already crimped pretty good, you could probably flare another piece of the tube and use that instead of the crimped part. you can also let it click over and over, or hold power to it and whack the pump with a screwdriver handle. Next time you try, it wouldn't hurt to make sure the throttle is all the way to high, and the engine is warm with a block heater.
This thread looks promising!
ok ill fiddle with it tomorrow as its getting dark... I was trying earlier.. I took the bleeder valve off the fuel filter and cranked.. and fuel came up so the mechanical pump is pumping.. and I tried a few times now to crank and little bit of fuel comes out the return line and air bubbles.. it be nice to get the battery out but with a hernia and by myself that battery is a boat anchor in the floor as I don't wanna put ti back in until it starts... but ill try with the battery charger off and give it 10 min and try to start to see if it starts fast.. ya brand new battery and I figured should start fast..you figure with size of this battery shouldn't have any issues... ill try the full throttle.. too and would a battery place be able to test if the battery is dropping amps fast??? as they tested in the store there read out said like 1000 or 1200 cranking amps and in the one video above I showed me touching the power to the injector pump and you can hear it clicking... but ill try all this stuff in the morning well ill try one more time anyways with the charger off and I know I have either as if watch it go through the tube.. and if I put too much the engine wont turn.. so then I let it sit 10 20 min don't need it blowing up
so I went to plug the block heater in well she burned out never used it before anyways in winter.. just a 1 second ether button and she fired up... so I took the charger off and tried it this is the video I gave it 10 min intervals.. and tried again 3rd time trying to start the battery just died.. like what BS is these big batteries figured they supposed to last long time cranking.. I going to take it to the starter guy see if he can test it?? so I put the battery I used to have in there a marine deep cycle battery.. it turned fast then slow and then died its a feew years old... tried it twice.. tis like starts fast then dies down... gonna put the charger to it also over night at 2amps and the exhaust smells like diesel but just wont frigin fire.. well I quit for the night and ill google that info you guys mentioned above
What do you mean "it fired up" ? Block heater burned up? how could you tell? is the coolant visible in the radiator? So the starter spun fast a second even without the charger, that means the charger wasn't causing it to slow when it tripped. Another battery cranked fast for a second then slowed. So it could be loading up the engine with hydraulics, transmission, completely plugged exhaust? not making a lot of sense, but narrowing it down. We know the mechanical transfer pump is working, that video showed it well also. We don't know if the pump inside the injection pump is turning, or if the metering valve is stuck. having sat since May, you could assume the metering valve is stuck and open it up like thepumpguy said. Easy enough to remove the fuel inlet tube and crank it to see if it pumps also.
fired up means started.. like if you ever watch nascar they will say fire up these engines ya block heater is burned up cooked defunked cuput broken.. doesn't heat.. I can tell by the galvanized cyclinder not heating up after 10-15 min not getting hto as they are 1500 watt external heater ya coolant is visible in the rad dunno what you mean by completely plugged exhaust.. I know I mentioned I can smell the diesel exhaust when it cranks I did the hydraulic tests the engine didn't speed up or slow down stayed constant when cranking and lifting the bucket same time or cranking and turning the wheel ya I googled the pump and found a video talks about removing it i see that the metering arm moves on a pivot to turn it back and forth and its easy to repair these it seems. i spent over 500 bucks when i had it done like 10 yrs ago i could done myself doesnt seem that hard but then again there was no youtube videos on it.. but ill take that cover over and run a start switch so i can crank it over while standing at the pump ill do that uin the morning but i didnt think the meterinv valve could get stuck as its pulled and pushed to turn it least what it looked like in video another video told me it spins in a circle so ill see tomorrow
I'm getting that Tracing feeling.
Yeah, they're EASY.. everybody rebuilds their own.. With the pump still on the engine.. Start w/ the side window removal, just to get the fuel level down inside the pump, so u can see what your looking at. Next, do as Delmer said & cut the return line.. & remove the top cover.. DO NOT BREAK THE SCREWS.!!! LOOK FOR small BLACK plastic pieces, tucked into the corners of the pump housing.. IF u see them, theres no sense in going any further, the insides have come apart & the pump needs to be repaired. But.. as long as your in there, check to see if the MV is stuck.. That's about all u can do from there.. Put the cover back on & remove the fittings from the top cover & try to BLEED IT..
Lmao...….so true!
Word of CAUTION.. IF u take the top cover off.. & find a stuck MV & unstick it.. AND u have a "starter button" hooked-up & u use it.. with the TC removed.. IF the machine starts.. u have no way to shut it down.. because u removed the shut down solenoid.!!! Fuel will FLY EVERYWHERE & freak u out.. & you'll have to reach inside the pump, grab the MV & move it to the shut-off position.. NOT fun.. After THAT.. you'll hafta go change your clothes.. {ALL your clothes}.. Lol
I still think the hydraulic pump is loading up, go to the left side of the front pump, is there a little T screw on the top? Screw it down to destroke the pump, once running back it out again. Also the clutch pedal has a hinged stop on it that contacts the floor plate, flip it up and push the clutch all the way down to disconnect the engine from everything when cranking, once running, immediately let it up and flip the stop back down.
sure does seem like something is loading up, doesn't it Greg. It always starts spinning fast, then slows dramatically. I struck out with all my suggestions on batteries etc. The backhoe bucket tilt is a good one to try while cranking, big long cylinder that doesn't have any weight on it in the air. The loader won't drop the pressure because of the priority valve. Who knows what's going on with the steering, there's still weight on the steering too. It still has an injection pump issue too.
Multiple issues can sure make diagnosis difficult.
Regarding the slow crank, I agree with Greg and Delmer. Suggest you start over with the basics. Double check all the hydraulic lever positions to insure they are in the neutral/middle position. Sounds something like the stabilizer lever has been bumped and stuck open causing loading of the hydraulics during crank.
If you have a slow crank you should be checking that the starter is getting enough voltage and current. Start with measuring battery voltage during crank. It should stay close to 10-11 volts. If it is dropping to 8 or 9 volts your battery is either worn or does not have sufficient capacity for the application. If the battery checks ok then you need to voltage drop the starter circuit. Voltage drop will tell you if you have a bad cable or connection. You make the measurement while the starter is cranking. Set the meter on DC Volts. Connect one lead to the positive terminal and the other to the positive connection at the solenoid. Crank and observe the meter. Now do the same on the ground side. Connect one lead to the negative terminal of the battery and another to the case of the starter. Crank and observe the voltage. In a perfect circuit you would read zero volts. In reality anything above .5volts means you have unwanted resistance in the circuit. This would be a poor/corroded connection, missing ground strap, or corroded cables. If the battery voltage is good and the voltage drops are acceptable then you know your slow crank is not the battery or cables. You are down to a bad starter or high friction in the engine.
sorry had headache yesterday and hadn't check replies.. I worked on pump and took couple videos.. I haven't tried starting yet.. due to the rains constant rains as I had issues cutting the line for return not much of a spot for a pipe cutter so I ended up cutting it with plyers cutter.. and I got some steel pipe to make a new one but pooring out so I didn't make it out there so video 1 video 2 now to try to answer your comments/questions for current drop never did that.. but I did the voltage test so at the battery was 12.51v and at the starter was 12.49v that is with using a bolt as ground the main bolt for lining up the front of the backhoe when you pull it away when doing the engine.. battery is only a month old and was built I guess in march from the sticker I guess.. I had shinned up the terminals and the ground fittings as you seen in the 1 video I posted in this forum shows what I all cleaned up... I do not know how to check a stabilizer level.. but I noticed I didn't do the bucket curl I did the arms lift so was lifting the bucket in the air not curling the bucket my bad... and that had no effect it would still crank that slow contstant speed.. same with the steering wheel the wheels would turn but no change as for the T handle I don't think so I know I have on bottom where I adjusted the pressure when I had low pressure several years ago I had to adjust it so when idling the pressure would be 2500psi I think it was.. but im sure nothing on top and has a solenoid for that destroke I show the power wire that goes to the starter key post. as for checking cables.. I had taken off and wire wheeled them.. there is only 2 cables.. 1 goes from battery to tranny and the other goes from battery to starter.... as I mentioned I only did a standing voltage didn't try when cranking... ill have to get some alligator clips to hold it and crank then... so hopefully that helps hoping to finish the job today … and hopefully I loosened up the metering valve enough 2nd video moved a lot easier Happy Halloween
Got me a new popcorn fryer, one of those air kind. Should I start getting it ready?
@Vetech63 are you going to share that popcorn lol waiting for the damn rains to stop that's for sure tomorrow they call for snow lol
IF it pumps fuel out the injector lines, then we're halfway there... I can't remember, if I ever knew, but there might be more to the metering valve. They get gummed up like that from sitting with bad fuel, I'd spray a good squirt of flammable brake cleaner in there and keep working that spring for a full minute before you put it back together. The acetone will help with cetane also, so no harm to leave it in there.
Hold the throttle to WIDE OPEN when u try to start it..
When measuring voltage drop you have to do it when the circuit is in operation otherwise you are only measuring potential. You will not be able to measure unwanted resistance unless current is flowing. Measuring 12.51 at the battery when the starter is not operating is not really telling you anything. Measure it when cranking. If it goes low then you know the battery is no good. Just because it is new does not mean it is good. It just means it is new. Also it could be good ust of insufficient capacity. Again just because it says xxx CCA on it does not mean it really is that good. Some off brand batteries are not what they advertise.
ah ok well I took the battery out and get it testted I didn't get a chance to do the break cleaner.. but I did get it to start.. its running..and when you guys talked about loading up does that mean the injector pump is causing the engine to nto turn fast enough as its putting a load on it and the fuel cant goto the injectors? so I had to use the starter fluid to get it startered.. it still turns over slow.. but it fires up but dunno how well it will be in winter... and in the video can you tell me if the starter is spinning to slow still??? … also I found a hydraulic leak.. its above the oil filter I was able to tighten the 90 elbow but slower leak.. is there a speak wrench to get up in there.. or can you extend a 90 degree elbow so you can tighten then behind the oil filter? well here is engine running and here is the hydraulic leak... if I have to re post in a new message ill do that.. but figured Id ask but thank you all so far with all the help to get this engine running again
U might be able to get a crows foot on an extension positioned in there?? Or a line wrench... OR u might have to move that rubber hose sleeve UP & out of the way.. The way it looks.. your gonna have to put a wrench to the grinder & shave it some.. just to get it in the hole.. Good luck.
Can you slide the hose up and away from that fitting to get better access to it ? It appears that just the wall thickness of the hose is preventing a tool to get in there. There are times you have to take three of four different lines and fittings off to get access to the leaking one.
well I tried 4 times what I did was there 2 bolts that hold that oil holder on.. then I used a wrench and pryed the hoses to the the wrenches in there and I really horsed it on used my foot on the one and pulled the other wrench least I hope I really horsed it still frigin leaks can the 90 degree elbow leak? and if so I never replaced one do they just unscrew and you tighten till tight and where ever it lands is what you work with.. or can you screw in and then another nut tightens to the direction you want.. and ya I think I gotta grind the damn pipe... I don't get it why they have to be like this who designs this crap lol make it soo terrible.. even john deere mechanics complain they have to make tools lol
Don't grind the pipe.!! Grind the wrench.. Is it leaking where the 2 connectors meet. or is the bottom fitting leaking at the block.?? If its leaking at the block, the bottom of the fitting.. it looks like an oring seal type of connector.?? Or it may have some kind of "packing" to seal the nut to the surface.. BUT we wont know till its out.. BTW> they wouldn't make it to where, u have to grind a pipe to repair.. {think about it..} It "looks like" a simple job for someone that has the proper tools.. a crows foot on an extension & a ratchet.. or even a "line wrench" crows foot.. I have both..
sorry my dyslexia i ment grind the wrench... things sound right in my head I just don't always type it out proper and its leaking out of the joint where the hose goes in of the elbow I also took the hose out I figure I might as well replace the hose too it doesn't look damaged just cant get it tight enough and it has a rubber o ring I pulled it out but I take some pics tomorrow.... its kinda simple job its a pain when you cant get in there and its cold and it just snowed.... but ill gte you pics in the morning
Hey Comet, Just wondering.... from the angle of the video ( from underneath) .... did you remove that rear tire??? That area becomes a bit more manageable with that tire removed.
sorry for the delay.. this was the video I was to post of the oil hose and fitting nto sure what you call the fitting but I bought a new one and a new hose.. I got it on struggled.. and I tightened lots so far no leaks I did feel like I was over tightening the fitting and hose?? but here is old video I had made I never took tire offf as its too hard for me by myself to handle with a hernia and back problems so I struggled.. but ya looks like you can do better job with tire gone.. my other question I been dealing with years.. is... the backhoe runs for say 30 min or so working it if if I shut it off.. I not longer can start the backhoe unless I let the backhoe rest 10 min.. then it will fire up.. its like its engine siezes and you cant turn the engine... but I have proper level of oil.. this is been doing it for years.. has anyone ever experienced this?
This is the same issue as your slow cranking after the first two seconds. I don't know what else to tell you though.
ah ok.. and are you supposed to be able to start it without using starter fluid? is the starter fluid only for winter? as I have to do it when warm is it possible the rings expand and get stuck and needs 10 min to cool down? is there a way to test compression on this engine as I have no idea and can you change the rings and sleves if has without pulling out engine? and I wont tackle this till summer... just asking if that could be possible and or how I test come next year as least its starting in the minus 5 degrees.. but reminds me I need a coolant heater as its broken I mentioned.. I really glad you guys helped me out getting it started... and to find what brand this was etc that I didn't have to spend 500 again for injector pump... im sure that's what it was before in the past 10 yrs ago when I paid 5 600 for injector pump bet they never did any adjustments lol just wiggled that meter valve
It is your front hydraulic pump loading up as I said before. Go the the LH side of the front pump, check for power with a test light when cranking at the destroke valve coil. If you have good power and the coil is secure remove the destroke valve and inspect the seals. You can test the magnetism of the coil once removed with 12v and a piece of steel (screwdriver) in doubt replace the destroke valve assembly.
I don't know what it means loading up.. meaning creatring pressure? I know in the past I had to fix the solenoid on the pump wire was broken.. so if now power to the relay I had no hydraulics period.. once I fixed it after trouble shooting everything that fixed the issue.. didn't need to buy this special 150 dollar pressure release valve shaft insert bt the oil filter.. bout several years ago.. but I dunno if that solinod really does that ???? as I don't know what a destroke really does.. can you show pictures by chance.. one we under a winter storm so I already got a foot of snow more to come.... but im a visual learner not so much words... is there a way you can show a picture what I need to look at ……. but ill try to look at it tomorrow once I can get to it.. but maybe you can explain what that valve does.. and does no power to it really cause several years ago I had no hydraulics I did have to adjust the screw underneath to get the pump to goto 2500 psi at idle.. and is it "loading up" causing that I cant start the backhoe after I shut it off?.. I don't know a lot of the termnolgy.. I can fix stuff just I fix stuff by seeing too ...
In the videos, I hear the tractor crank fine for a second, then slow down. Then you say it won't re start after you shut it off, won't turn over, like it's locked up. That sounds like the pump is trying to pump while it's cranking, it's not supposed to pump while it's cranking, the starter motor doesn't have enough power to do that. The solenoid on the hydraulic pump is supposed to shut the pump off, it's called destroking because it's a piston pump and the pistons don't move when it's destroked or shut off. When the pistons don't move, there's no load on the pump and no load on the engine, and the engine cranks faster and starts easier. I would have somebody crank the engine while you hold a piece of steel near the end of the solenoid, you should be able to feel the magnetism while it's cranking, and not while it's not cranking. If you don't, then check for voltage while cranking, and check the coil for resistance/ohms with the wires disconnected. Even if you do feel the magnetism, then the inside of the valve could possibly be sticking, you'll need some better pictures than I have to mess with that. But we can find it when you get to that point.
oh ok. so if its locking up why does it work when its cold say?... so basically this solinode is like a manual clutch on a car.. press clutch in and it stops tranny same with cranking it should push the pump in and wont turn pump.. can I do I by pass since I really don't have another helper... but run a wire from the battery to the solinod or is it like a starter relay ment for high amperage but not ment to be on continuous or it burns out.. as I figured I could do it while im standing there? … and I wanted to attempt to rebuild the pump as I mentioned years ago I had no hydraulics till I fixed the wire on the coil... which probably ment that destroke was stuck in the on pos as I had no hydraulics im guess.. but ya for years I experience this issue I mentioned above.. but ill try to work on that today or tomorrow see if it sticks.. I cant afford a rebuilt pump and having someone rebuild it probably costs just as much … but if its simple like pulling solinode out and parts there that be ok.. other then that I have to wait till summer as all the repairs be outside in the snow... but ya ill take a better video and such... and is it ok for me to just run a wire from the battery to the coil. and if the valve sticks can I spray break cleaner in there like I was told to loosen up the injector pump metering valve?
No, don't spray brake cleaner in there, it would need to be taken apart and examined to see what is wrong, but we're not there yet. Yes, the solenoid is meant to be on only with the starter. I do not recommend hooking any external current to it, on or off the hydraulic pump. You can get a manual, or have somebody else look at it if you want to go further. You can get or make a remote start switch to be able to crank the engine, but that might not turn on this destroke solenoid, so you need somebody to help. I think it was loading up the hydraulics in every video I saw after a second or two. I'm not sure why it locks up completely when hot. but not cold. The part about having no hydraulics from that solenoid wiring being bad doesn't make sense to me. Can you explain what you found was the problem and what you did to fix it? if you remember.
ah ok ill try remote start wire as the soilnode wire is wired to the start wire on the starter solinode to make it work. ah ok so hydraulics are running when you start the engine you say... ya I never wanted to touch the piston pump was told you need special tools and youi cant do it by yourself.. so I never tackled it years ago.. if it has to come out id wait till summer as I cant afford afford to have it looked at ... from what I remember when I was using my backhoe everything was fine this was like 6 7 yrs ago roughly.. next day or same day I was using it after cooled down as I was pulling rocks on my farm.. well all the hydraulics stopped working.. I think the outrigers lifted up the bucket didn't work the hoe moved ever so slowly. something like that.. so I wrote on this forume for help and in end I replaced pressure release valve piston that slides in the pipe and that didn't help.. then later I didn't have the pressure I have a pressure gauge hooked up right now permently to the pump so I can always see the pressure... and I still hadn't the pressure but the wire at the solinode was broken off so I resoldered it and I also did the adjustment on the bottom of the pump to get the idle psi up to 2500psi.. and then I think it started working again.. but ya I have a pressure gauge always hooked up to the pump so I can monitor it.. also I miss placed the plugged to put it back so I just leasge the gauge hooked up but that's roughly what I remember
hi sorry delay.. had other things to do and never got to it... I didn't have anyone to help so I just ran battery to the wiring.. didn't even get a spark when using alligator clips.. I made video where I had liquid electrical tape years ago.. but I thinking about it never worked?? also its not in the video but I set multimeter on it.. I set it to 20 and initial contact I get 100 but give it a second or 2 to setting down... I get 3.4 3.5 ohms I do not know if you that is ok or not? and can I order that part? not through john deere as im sure that part be like 100 200 bucks lol.. does amazon sell it.. and not sure what you call that coil destroke coil?? but here is the video anyways
I googled to search and found jd site but the solinode they show doesn't look like mine https://partscatalog.deere.com/jdrc/sidebyside/equipment/68895/referrer/navigation/pgId/2174 oh and I tried starting with the solinode off and ya still cranks slow and needs starter fluid to start.. so I guess whoever said the pump is turning same time.. and probably why when the engine is hot running for an hour say and I shut off and I cant restart as the pump is under pressure and that's why the starter wont turn it over for 10 min I bet??
What they show looks like it includes the core that is on your hydraulic pump, not just the coil that you have taken off in the video. 3 ohms sounds good to me. You get 12 V to that connector when you crank, right? The only other test is to see if a small piece of steel will stick to that coil when installed on the hydraulic pump and cranking. That coil says 6VDC, that means don't hook it up to 12V and expect it to live, and don't hook it to any volts without a core in it. That's what I'd do anyway. We're trying to see if the hydraulic pump is not destroking, another way to check if the pump is keeping the engine from cranking is to use the backhoe bucket tilt function while trying to crank it. If the bucket is curled all the way up, use the valve to uncurl it while you crank, that will prevent the pump from building high pressure, and might allow the starter to spin fast enough to start the engine. Your explanation in post #64 didn't make sense to me, there could be more going on here than we know about. So don't be surprised if this goes in different directions, but try to work at it one step at a time, and we might get somewhere.
ah ok.. so couple things then yes I get 12 volts to the wire.. as I have the wire to the starter's key wire at the solinode.. but I also seen on google a photo from a 410a they have I guess the destroke on the other post on the solinode.. is that a 6volt post? as you mentioned 12 volts wont make this coil last long.. so why is it 6volts if the system is 12 volts?? and so 3 ohms is good? how come when I do hooked up to 12 volts I don't get least a spark? and what I also tried is stick a screw drvier through the hole hook to battery for a a couple seconds.. and it never stuck but ill re put it back on and try again... like its always started slow since I my father got the backhoe 20 years ago so probably wasn't working then?/ but ill re test it again.. I was going to to unhook the pump from the direct drive but the damn rad is in the way to unbolt the 2 bolts lol... but ok ill re do that the bucket curl.. I didn't do that last time I was doing bucket lift … does it matter with which you curl it? and why is it the curl prevents the pressure? so in message 64 you were asking about why I thought it was the destroke coil and what happened from my best memory of why I lost 100% hydraulics.. I was explaining what happened 6 7 yrs ago what I was doing then what happened with 0 hydraulics.. then I explained I replaced the 150 dollar pressure release valve didn't work.. and I explained I liquid electrical taped that coil and I adjusted the bottom of the pump the nut to increase the oil pressure to 2500 psi at idle.. reason you also seen in the video I have it permently attached to the the pump as I miss placed the bolt since then... so I have the gauge hooked up all the time.. sorry with my dyslexia it sounds good to me.. but doesn't always sound right to others... but ill try the curling... and ill retry coil... I just didn't have long enough wires to jump the starter by the coil ...but ill re try all today
This thread shows promise! Keep it up fellas, you all are doing well!
In post 64, nothing made sense to me that would cause the problem, or fix the problem. You shouldn't have to adjust the pressure on an old machine, and that shouldn't cause a sudden and total loss of hydraulic function. I understand what you did, I don't agree with doing it, or that it fixed the problem. It's a 6V coil to be sure it works with the cranking voltage, and it shouldn't have power to it for very long, so it works fine. But you can burn it out according to the manual. The reason I say to use the backhoe bucket curl is because there's no weight on it. The backhoe stick extend could be better because it's a shorter hose and bigger cylinder, swing the stick in or out a foot while attempting to crank. The loader won't do the same thing because the priority valve will not allow the loader to use all the available pressure, only high pressure. I'll say it again, I would not test that coil with voltage when not cranking. The screwdriver may not have felt anything because it was the core as you describe it. With the coil on the pump, a piece of steel should stick to the coil while cranking. If you insist on putting power to it, then put a bolt through the core of the coil, and see if that bolt will stick to another piece of steel, or if the bolt will have resistance to pulling out of the core.
oh ok. I guessing you mean bucket as the hoe bucket not the front bucket.. as I was making video uploading 2.. where I was cranking the engine and curling the front bucket and it was building pressure.. and as for 12volts what I mean is isn't cranking 5 10 seconds still worse then 1 2 seconds on a battery? just touching with alligator clips? since im right there... as I crank 5 seconds and that's putting 12 bolts to the coil for 5 seconds.. where as when I use alligator clips and battery directly to coil I doing like half second to 1 2 seconds just to see if it holds?.... but reason I changed the pressure release valve is and adjusted pressure when I went to John deere place the mechanics said you probably need to replace the pressure release valve 150 dollar piece of pipe that's by that oil filter under neath where I had that changing the line.. they also gave me photo copies out of the book stating.. when the engine is idling the pressure has to be set to 2500 psi or the hydraulics will not work.. so reason I had to adjust it and that's when it worked after I did both those changes and the electrical taping the coil.. so I don't knoe what really made it work again.. but that's where I got the piece of pipe and the 2500psi from the john deere mechanic but ill try the hoe bucket curl.. see if it spins faster.. as I was doing the front bucket curl up and curl down.... and I priced out a coil from john deere just under 500 bucks after taxes frig lol but ok I going to test the curling of the hoe and see what the pressure says thanks for the help so far... as I wouldn't really know and I been dealing with this for years
so I just took a video doing the back the hoe part.. now it did start I make a crap video and I going to take another one tomorrow when its cold and I haven't tried starting 10 times curling the front bucket but facing the back putting the bucket curl to the left which curls the bucket up still started slow but it fired up... and if I shut it off and did to the right.. it started too but it could been from me starting multiple times.... so ill upload my 3 videos .. I did 2 front bucket curls the first video stopped.. and then I took a 2nd video.. and then the 3rd video did the hoe part.. so ill re do one tomorrow when its sat and its cold.. and current battery level is 12.5 after all that starting.. so ya ill re try trommorow when she good and cold or ill try this afternoon 5 pm or so... just not good and holding camera and trying to start lol.. and ill try the bolt thing too.. with the coil.. as maybe this thing burned out 20 yrs ago when we got the backhoe.. didn't know any better.. just after 2 starter rebuilds I just wanna make sure I fix it properly and I appreciate all the help learning something new every day
If it starts today without starting fluid, then I'd fix your block heater and leave it sit until you need to use it. I forgot about your pressure gauge, you really need a helper to crank this so you can check if the coil is magnetizing while cranking, and watch that gauge to see if it moves when cranking, it will move a little, but you shouldn't get even 500 PSI. The loader will do nothing to relieve the pressure on the pump, the backhoe or steering have priority.
Lots to read in this thread. Maybe I missed someone suggesting that you try pulling the detroke plunger out and then hold it with a vice-grips. Then see how the motor turns over.
ok I remember someone saying something about a T or something like that ahd I don't remember anyone saying about vice grips and pulling plunger out? how you do that? on the shaft the coil sit on.. does it inside pull a plunger toward the outside? in it.. as I jumpered the starter with booster cables.. and put a screw driver to the coil bolt nothing stuck to it.. I took a video of my procedure.. but ok.. you talk about taking the destroke plunger out.. so that means pull the coil off and unbolt the shaft right? and then crank and the oil should pour out but start faster correct? and whats the bolt on top of the pump for? but ill try that too.. with my dyslexia I miss read and sometimes miss stuff.. like when mentioned bucket curl I thought he ment front bucket.. but when he detailed it above he said the front bucket does nothing its the back bucket that releases pressure.. but ill give it a try
ok I pulled out the plunger... so where do I hold it with the vice grips?.. I put it back in while typing this as I didn't know how much oil is going to pour out so didn't wanna waste it incase the transmission drains all out and I didn't wanna pull anything with vice grips on it not without you guys seeing pic... as I never done this before
You sure aren't afraid of tearing into things, are you? that can be good and bad. As far as I understand, the plunger is internal in that piece in your hand. That piece is the destroke valve, so you can blow that out with compressed air, make sure there are no bits of junk in it, etc. You MIGHT be able to see the plunger operate if you put power to the coil on that valve, with it outside the pump. The destroke valve BUILDS pressure inside the crankcase of the pump (NOT the outlet of the pump), that pressure pushes the pistons against the return springs and they don't touch the crankshaft, so they don't move, and there is no load on the engine, and no output of the hydraulic pump. It will leak out that opening if you crank it, I don't know if the pump will destroke or not with that out, I don't think it will. The T handle somebody mentioned is found on models without a destroke solenoid, as far as I know.
I know nothing about John Deere hydraulic pumps. I thoght I could clearly see the plunger exposed in Comet's video. Evidently the solenoid is sealed on the pump and is flooded when in operation. That would explain at least to me why the plunger cannot be pulled out with the solenoid off of the pump. Yes ?
@Delmer I didn't want get in trouble for not doing something in an earlier post I supposedly missed about removing the plunger and use vice grips to hold it.. I been trying to upload a 18 second video of me taking out but poor internet takes several hours as the pic isn't the clear... I cleaned it and blew air through it.. and I hooked it up and cranked it and I guess there is a little rod down in there that's supposed to push out?? well nothing moved.. unless there is missing parts? as I don't know if I missing parts if something broke years ago but nada... I put my fingering there hole figured there is something in there in the pump so anyways I confused what you said which is the output pump I know there is a pickup pump in the tranny and then there is the hydraulic pump... but then you mentioned crankshaft.. is that the shaft in the hydraulic pump is what you ment and with my dyslexia I have to re read and re read so I read your comment 10 times... im a visual learner not so much word learner.. reason I ask for pictures or I do videos I can explain better in videos then words so basically from what I understand what you said is while the engine turning the the pressure builds... and when the destroke valve is engage there should be a rod pushing out the hole that feels like a big ass ball bearing in there that rod should be pushing on. I dunno all I know I don't see nothing moving in that puppy I don't get a spark if I just do the coil to the battery just for split second you know like touching battery cables together to get a spark u don't get anything like that .. like no draw.. im thinking its broken and I don't know how to test the coil if its working or not just the 3.4ohms I got so ya I trying and still my video didn't upload but I going to test the ohms again see what I get I appreciate the help.. im guessing I need a new valve but can I not just but a new coil? instead of buying the whole unit?
damn video finally uploaded … I going to post a couple better pics of the valve maybe there is missing parts? and my pictures sucking I cant get close up but where you see I liquid electrical taped it doesn't look like a lot of wire strands there I electrical taped it 6 7 yrs ago... but im thinking I need a new coil.. now can I get just the coil? john deere in Canada dealer is 490 dollars after taxs is there a place I can get it cheaper? and yes seems to start when I curl the hoe bucket up (pull lever to the left) but I not testing anymore today ill try tomorrow morning when its -minus weather out as its plus weather now... I appreciate the help hope I didn't waste anybodys time... as im pretty sure the coil is cooked.. its like a battery says it has 12 volts but just doesn't have the amperage to do anything.. maybe has the ohms but not enough to pull anything im done for today and will try one more time tomorrow morning
oh and another question you see I have the pressure gauge hooked up to the high side.. when the destroke valve is working.. and when your cranking it should stay at 0 correct? as I aborted the videos as I was curling the front bucket not the back.. but when cranking I watched the pressure rising … but I just curious if when the destroke is working if that pressure gauge reads 0 when you crank... and thank you @Delmer and rest for the help I really appreciate this group and the help
You are not wasting anyone's time Comet. We are all here to help each other. Delmer and the the rest of us will help you for as long as it takes. Thanks for the pictures of the destroke valve. I now understand how it operates. Delmer is right, the plunger is in that shiny tube. It doesn't look like JD sells the coil (#8) only. Just the complete valve. https://partscatalog.deere.com/jdrc/sidebyside/equipment/68895/referrer/search/pgId/2173
Tinkerer, I think the center of the solenoid in that video is a SS tube that holds the plain steel core that operates the valve. Comet, I was explaining how the hydraulic pump works. That's all inside the hydraulic pump, the one in the video in front of the engine. I understand how the pump works, but explaining it is tougher. Trust me, it works, if you want to know how, just ask, or get the manual, it's more clear and has pictures. Don't take it apart The gauge won't stay at 0 even with the destroke working, it will build SOME pressure. Maybe 200PSI, maybe 800, I don't know. It won't go to 2,500 or anywhere close if the destroke is working. Since you have the machine in running shape, and a pressure gauge hooked up already, the next time you use it, at low idle put 12V to that coil, and see what the pressure drops to. Just a split second, a couple times, will show what the needle drops to. Doesn't have to be perfect, it will either stay 2,500 and not drop at all, OR it will go way down. Comet, where is the big ball bearing that you mentioned? Also, what is the inside diameter of that coil? the size of the round hole in the metal bracket. If you have a drill bit set, see which one fit's through there easily BY HAND only. Also, what is the height of the plastic coil, or the inside of the metal bracket that it fits in. There are plenty of coils floating around that would work, but lets see what's happening first.
ah ok.. ya I didn't wanna sound like I wasting anyones time.. as I never really repair it and I don't run it everyday... maybe a week or 2 out of a year.. as I use my tractor more on the farm then the backhoe .. use it to lift the car when I have to fix underneath lol... ya I not planning on taking the pump apart... it works after I increased the pressure.. as I did that 6 7 yrs ago the jd mechanic said the pumps wear out and you need to increase the pressure.. I looked at getting a reman pump your prices in the usa like 700 but in Canada was 1500+ as I was looking to replace it instead.. and that coil is 500 well 490... I can try but I tried cranking it like you mention with the coil and destroke valve outside of the pump had it sitting on the tire.. and nothing came out.. reason I was thinking from the pic I showed kinda the wire is not many strands left to the entering of the coil.. reason I was thinking like a car battery it may show 12 volts but it not longer has 1000 cranking amps but like 50 amps.. … as nothing happened nothing shot out.. the ball bearing feeling.. is I put my finger in the hole of the pump where the destroke plunger went in.. it fend round in there no sharp feeling.. as I figured maybe something broke off the plunger... and from looking at the vavle if the center rod comes out.. doesn't it mark up the ball or whatever is there that holds the oil pressure? as I look at the plunger it looks like it be like a little needle and it would make a mark inside the pump its pressing on when you turn the key.. but I feel in there was smooth.. like a ball bearing.. like a spring on the other side pressing on the ball to keep a tight seal.. that's why I was thinking maybe the plunger broke years ago.. ok ill measure that stuff tomorrow... and like the metering valve on injector pump how do we know that the plunger isn't stuck inside and wont ever come out?? but I can get you the info tomorrow im just thinking coil is cooked... but you guys the experts.. I learn as I go thanks for the help so far I really appreciate it
Where are you at in this country of ours? Are there any tractor/equipment wreckers anywhere near you? John Deere used that same destroke valve/coil on quite a few different models.
im in Canada Ontario couple hours east of Toronto..... I don't know of any tractor equipment wreckers... just john deere welll Ontrax but its been sold to Brandt now they are the john dealer and ontrax is gone I asked brandt if they take payment plans as I cant afford 500 bucks for small item like that least not in one shot..... and I tried googling that destroke by the number they gave me only showed on the 310a and b go figure lol
Well I'm in BC, so can't help you there.. Have you tried AT73624?
ya I keep finding usa parts places and a uk one.. nothing in Canada so far lol... gonna re try tomorrow I gave up I did the first 2 pages of google searchs lol
I don't know if this helps you Comet. I wish the picture showed the full length of the valve. I did find out JD makes the valve but they buy the coils that operate them. This one is a John Deere and sure looks like yours. About $50.00 USD. As you can see it is 6 volts like yours. Applying 12 volts from the starter terminal would destroy it quite quickly. I'm thinking that there is a voltage reducing resistor somewhere in the wire that this solenoid is connected to. Here is a link to an aftermarket valve for you to look at. https://avspare.com/spare/deere/at37169/ JD used that valve on a lot of different tractors.
ah ok I did look up that code the AT37169 found its also like around 300 usd amount... I did look up 300xxxx number from the Vickers I emailed Canadian seller https://www.radwell.ca/en-CA/Buy/EATON CORPORATION/VICKERS/300AA00246A/?redirect=true now question I looked on the wiring there is no resistor to drop 12volts down to 6 volts.. the wire has a different plug like a blade like they changed the wiring at one point.. but on the starter I saw a 310a picture starter there is a 2nd post they ran the destroke too.. does a starter solenoid offer 12v and 6v posts? this is the article... I thinking maybe that 6volts and the people before me with the backhoe had on wrong posts? https://www.tractorbynet.com/forums/john-deere-vintage-tractors/413345-jd-310a-destroke-valve.html why are they 6volts yet the battery is 12...
and I just try the backhoe.... so it spins at a constant speed not fast but same pace.. if I curl the hoe bucket (pulling lever to the left) if I let go it builds up pressure and starter has issues I pull the lever and it goes back to cranking ok. still doesn't start right away but I never been able to get it to start without a shot of starter fluid.. so ill do that in winter for now till I can get a new coil or whatever... give a shot pull lever and start
I read that article and don't know if it drops the voltage there. The author of that post must be using that wire to supply his destroke coil without any problems. Or maybe he burnt it out eventually. There is an endless amount of different resistors to reduce 12v to 6 volts. I am most familiar with the porcelain ones used to drop the voltage for ignition coils. Ford and GM used them for years. I had a 1956 Chevy many years ago and had to replace the resistor. https://www.amazon.com/DB-Electrical-IDR6000-Converter-8NE-10306/dp/B00Q8LS1RE Here is a newer style that does the same thing. https://www.amazon.com/VOLTAGE-DROP-dune-buggy-baja/dp/B003KKMDHA mg2361 or Delmer may know more about using one of them on your pump. I would think that they are heavy enough electrically to be ok.
The diagram in post #82 says "parker hanifin" under the valve, I'd bet it's an off the shelf cartridge valve also. Parker and other companies make cartridge valves, I don't think Deere or Cat makes that kind of thing. In any case, I think we can easily find a coil that will work, if you want to try that. If you can crank it without building pressure by using the backhoe, I'd leave it for now. Fix the block heater though, so much nicer to the engine than starting fluid. How about a picture of the broken block heater you have? that should be much easier to fix than explaining how to replace broken rings. Don't worry about how the 6V coil works. I don't think there's any resistor. It's a short duty cycle, and only works with the starter, so not full battery voltage, and not full alternator volts either.
ah ok and ya I tried googling wire diagram for it and couldn't find one to show where the wiring goes... and I never tackled the rats nest of wires whatever the hell they did by the side side of the console wires are all over the place looks like a birds nest so never tackled that **** … but ya maybe he knows... I find other Letters for the 310 for wiring diagram not A and not specific wiring lines either
ok I get you a pic kf the block heater.. . they cost about 100 bucks from Canadian tire.. its the external ones.. and ya a coil be cheaper to try the 500 for the whole thing... as that valve probably still works right as it doesn't looks damage? but ill get pic
maybe block heater wrong words as it not the one that screws into the block.. but this the external kind but since I never used it yet till you guys mentioned to try it..... as I try to get it on sale unless someone can get it cheaper https://www.canadiantire.ca/en/pdp/tank-circulation-engine-heater-0303294p.html#srp
You didn't run that heater without coolant in it, did you? If not, then the wiring is probably the issue, not the element burned out. Take a look at the wiring underneath it, with it unplugged. First check the ohms from one prong to the other prong on the plug. Then see where the "open circuit" or break in the wire is inside the wiring cover. I'm not too familiar with that style, I see the tin Kat's style tanks all the time, they like to pull wires out, overheat and loosen connections, break wires from flexing, or burn out the thermostat in there. IF you BYPASS the thermostat in there, it will burn out if there's no coolant, but it will almost always burn out if there's no coolant anyway. It could make it more likely to start on fire if you accidentally left it plugged in in your garage all summer too, so be careful IF you BYPASS something as important as a thermostat on a tank heater. I would NEVER do something like THAT. I have a JD that probably has the same solenoid valve and coil, so I can experiment when I get time, and help you more specifically with the coil if you want to get that fixed eventually. I think Tinkerer has a Case, but we can both help you get it figured out if that's what you want to do.
never used the heater in 20 yrs since I got it.. only a couple weeks ago first time I plugged it in.. and reason I knew it wasn't working is the housing gets hot by the touch and usually you hear a clicking least the one fromt he Ctire link I showed I had to replace my leylands tractor... plus when you plug it in or unplug it you hear sparks.. so it never sparked so I knew wasn't working as the one in the ctire link is a 1500 watt version but I can do an ohms test and didn't know you could take the cover off those units I figured they a sealed unit... but ill go check the ohms right now and ya I can use help with the coil.. anything to help me save 500 bucks as I cant blow that in one shot.... but ill be be back and take a look thank you
so I get a 0 ohm reading... as I haven't touched it in 20 yrs since I got it.. so orginal electrical tape lol.. but ya ill take it apart and take a look later today then
Yes, Delmer I have a Case 680. But I am really interested in all types and brands of construction equipment after spending my entire life working and mostly running them. That is why I am trying to help Comet in a small way if I can. John Deere de-stroke valves always were a mystery to me. For years I read about the hard starting problem they cause, but didn't read much about it. When I first read Comet's thread title it got me real interested in learning about them and helping him if I can. I just thought a resistor would be cheap insurance in the supply voltage line to his coil. I agree about 12 volts to that coil for short periods of time not doing any harm to it. I would be curious to see a voltage reading on that starter terminal while the the starter is engaged.
There may be a manual destroke valve you can get for that, about $20, John Deere part number AR96625 is a sample of what they look like. I believe that is for a 3020 ag tractor. I didn't verify if the 310a uses the same pump.
A little more looking. On the jdparts.com site I see 3 different manual destroke valves listed for the 310a depending on serial number. AR33249, AR96625, RE13271
ah ok good to know.. ya I figured the 12 volts on a 6volt coil is to pull it harder or push it harder.. like some people modify electric carts use a 6 volt motor and put 12 or 24 volts to it to spin it much faster.. figured maybe that's why but as the for the coolant heater.. I took it apart there is no servacable parts .. unless you can get the element wit the wire as its one piece.. no broken wire nothing I can take apart... just full of sludge here is my video
as for my pump serial number its R0PVJD1015242 RP1065E0E0600 AND backhoe serial is 310AD 3419_9 _ means I cant really read it
Take a look at the very bottom of that heater, the bottom of the part with the cord and heating element. It looks from here like there is a cover that will come off to expose the wiring, that's what you want to look at. I'm not familiar with that brand of heater, every other tank type circulating heater I've seen has had wiring/thermostat issues, not burned out elements. Excellent suggestion on the manual destroke valve. For tinkerer or anyone else who cares what it does: the JD radial piston pump has 8 pistons that float free in their cylinders. the 8 short wide hex heads are the valve caps for each cylinder, kind of like a cylinder head. There is no connecting rod, there is a spring in the top that keeps the piston pushed against the crankshaft/eccentric that drives them in and out. The crankcase has low pressure oil in it to lube and cool when pumping. When the standby pressure is reached, the pressure control valve in the hydraulic pump raises the pressure in the crankcase until the pressure is higher than the spring pressure and the pistons don't return, so they don't pump, so no more oil flows until the pressure drops below standby pressure. The destroke valve does the same thing as the pressure control valve, except it feeds the direct oil pressure to the crankcase, so the pump is pumping oil only up to the pressure required to destroke the pump, about 100PSI or so, and then there is no load from the pistons moving.
I've been following this thread as I own a 310A as well. I bought mine from my grandpa about 5 years ago, and he owned it for 15 before that so I know 20 years worth of history as well. One thing we learned was to get rid of the single 12volt battery and put in two 6 volt batteries in series (6 volt, 3EH batteries). That made a huge improvement in cold cranking ability. The backhoe, when first purchased, had two 6 volt batteries, but they were shot. My grandpa replaced them with a single, large, 12 volt battery not wanting to mess with 6 volt batteries. The backhoe remained slow to crank and hard to start because of it. It had been overhauled when he bought it due to a cracked head, so knowing the engine was fresh, we just determined it was a hard starting engine and used ether. Flash forward 12 years, an old school mechanic friend of my grandpa's said to get rid of that 12 volt battery and put the two 6 volt batteries back in it. He did so and low and behold, the engine cranks faster. I've replaced them again last winter, but outside of some other self-induced issues I had going on, the backhoe starts quite well in all temperatures now. Replace the coolant heater. Mine has an external coolant heater like yours does. Go to ebay.com, search external coolant heater, and buy one. They are cheap, $70 w/free shipping and when installed and working, do an excellent job in heating up an engine if everything else is correct in the system. I wouldn't waste too much time trying to fix your old block heater, mostly because your time has a value too. If you spend 5 hours on it and don't get anywhere, you wasted $100 minimum in labor and could have replaced it for less. In my case, I don't want to be wrenching on my hoe when I need it to run. YMMV. Once you have a good set of batteries, a working block heater, and the main pump de-stroke solenoid worked out, you'll be very pleased with the starting ability of your 310A. My procedure on cold days is to plug it in 2 hours before I plan on using it, or just plan on waiting 2 hours for the block heater to do it's job. Move throttle control lever to 1/2 throttle or full throttle ( @thepumpguysc just taught me this a month ago) and crank 'er up. I don't carry a can of ether anymore, it wasn't necessary. I feel dumb that it took me this long to learn this, but I caught on eventually. Also, @Delmer and @GregsHD have been super helpful resources over the past few years for me in diagnosing and understanding my own issues with my backhoe. Thanks guys
sorry delay haven't been home.. and then I wrote this 2 days ago and this message didn't send all good suggestions I was going to use 2 golf cart batteries but I was using a deep cycle marine battery .. but I bought the big battery because I thought it was the battery and I figured it would have more cranking stamina etc.. but it never did still spins same speed I did try starting with the pulling the lever to the the left on the hoe.. it doesn't start instantly like my Leyland tractor starts like 1 2 seconds after cranking... it takes like 5 6 seconds of cranking to starting... is that cuz pistons need changing? and maybe after we can take a look how fast the engine should be running if I need to adjust and throttles as for the heater element.. the wire had no issues.. there was no ohms continuity test across the 2 elements for the neutral and live wire.. but I guess one element to thermostat wire.. so nothing I can fix.. so I just picked up one from c-tire as I doubt you can buy just the insert... and amazon cost more for the same brand... as for the destroke id still like to fix it.. instead of manual.. as its just nicer with the electronic one instead of putting manual one in there... if I can just buy the coil cheaper then replacing with a manual etc
How cold was it when it took 6 seconds to start? was the new heater on and working?
sorry delay.. it was about -3 or +3 wasn't cold just sat a week between me trying to start never tried the new heater yet didn't think I needed to try in the mild weather.. but I could give it a try..