I have a mechanically injected Deere 4045 in one of our compressors. This is probably a 2005 or so machine. No computers just a mechanical injection pump. So the engine fires right up and runs clean as can be. Issue is when I load the compressor air end and that puts a load on the engine it can't put out the power. The entire machine only has about 200 hours (really!). So to give you an idea...this is what happens...compressor is running at 50psi no problem...I turn the switch to load up the compressor to 100psi and the throttle on the engine is pulled to full throttle...however the engine starts vibrating and running rough but without any smoke...just feels like its gonna stall. My first thought is that the original 16 year old lift pump isn't putting enough fuel to the injection pump. There is a new lift pump in the mail. If that doesn't fix it what else would you think it is? The air end spins freely as we separated it from the engine to test and it turns by hand no issue and when we had the engine disconnected from the air end we started the engine and it does free rev without any issues. Also there is no smoke when the throttle is pulled to full throttle which again makes me feel like there isn't enough diesel being delivered to the engine. Sorry for the long winded message but any thoughts would be amazing.
I think you are right.
200 hours on a mechanical diesel, it's almost 2022, Delmarva, isn't exactly the desert, I'd guess your fuel tank screen is plugged up with dark colored snot. disconnect the line at the fuel tank, run it into a can of fuel, start it up and let it run for a few minutes to bleed the air, then load it up and see what happens.
I had a 05 jd 160 exc. had similar problems. Would run fine at idle, but when you revved it up it would lurch all over the place. It seemed to work better with a full tank, I chased it for a whole season replacing crank sensors, lift pumps, fuel lines, inline screens, vacuuming tank, you name it. It turned out to be injection pump
Did you have the injection pump rebuilt? Any recommendations on where to go for that? I have an injection pump shop I've used before but having trouble reaching out. And did they indicate what the issue was?
This is a good idea. I will check to see if there is a pickup screen or just a dip tube as well as try to clean out the tank. When the new lift pump shows up I think I will run it from a fresh tank or separate can.
If it's spent a lot of time sitting with old fuel, it might help to spin a fuel filter on with a mix of ATF and powerservice or acetone, run it for 30 seconds so it gets into the pump, then shut if off and let it sit for a couple of days or so. It definitely can help with pump issues causes from sitting with old/bad fuel.
I do believe it sat for a while before I got it but I just don't know...it like a brand new machine under the hood (minus the fact that it doesn't run right...). I can get some powerservice/atf/acetone and let it run through the system tomorrow. Would certainly be a good idea to try anything simple before I ultimately send the pump off for remanufacturing .
Lift/supply pump is a good start.. Most of the air compressors I’ve worked on are full of rust from sitting so long.. Check the running conditions w the new lift pump aslong as it’s ordered.. Then pull the top off the inj pump to check for rust..
What machine is that? Currently working on P185WGD. That one has 4039. Be glad that it is not XAS machine with darned 4024 in it - that is pain in the soft tissue to sort out fuel system problems.
Why don't I see "fuel filter changed" in the first post? If it has the lock ring fuel filter with a water bowl, i don't have enough fingers to count how many times that the water bowl O-ring was omitted. It'll give the same symptoms.
Do you have primary filter before the one on the engine? Is this a turbo engine, and if it is - does it have aneroid?
This is a sullair but FYI I work on a 4039 every week it seems. Let me know if I can help I may have some guesses.
It is the lock ring style and I do need to replace it along with the lift pump at the same time! Which O-ring am I looking for on the filter - just want to make sure I get it right.
No primary and no turbo. Just the engine mounted filter.
Thanks. But I am fine. I have found all the problems and got the parts, just cleaning and reassemble left.
Letter "E" if a water bowl is utilized.
No separate bowl on this filter. I still have a new one coming as of a minute ago. Can't hurt to sling on a new filter at the same time as the fresh lift pump.
I will let Pumpguysc chime in on it, but as far as i remember, the return line restrictions will reduce the power of the engine, with those Stanadyne pumps. But then again - I might be wrong.
I think I will replace both feed and return lines tomorrow as well. Draining the tank and refilling with fresh diesel won't be too tough either...at least I'll be able to see how the tank looks and realistically I should be doing all these steps before I determine the injection pump needs to come off anyway.
If they’re steel lines, just blow’m out.. The manufacturer really padded their bottom line by making a “closed top” lift pump.. Like the one pictured.. u can no longer remove the top to clean the screen.. (bummer) TVA is correct.. a restriction in the return line WILL slow the rpm’s down to next to nill.. But I think the poster is on the right track.. Personally, if it were sitting in my yard, I woulda taken the hose off AT THE PUMP INLET.. cranked the engine while I watched the fuel pulses.. if it was “ok”.. hooked it back up.. Removed the return connector on the top cover and started the engine.. checked it at wfo to see if the rpm’s came up.. Then pulled the top cover to see if it has rust or flex ring problems.. Blow out lines and change filter.. Lastly ordered parts..(if needed)
When you change the filter remove the black cap and clean it out. Bob
Does it just unthread after the filter is off?
Just an update tomorrow is the day I will get to this machine. It will get feed and return lines blown out, fuel tank fittings blown out, fresh fuel, a fuel filter full of acetone, and then run for short period. More acetone and run again. Will then let it sit until Monday. If the new lift pump and filter don't help and I decide to remove the pump top will that be something I can return back to normal without new gaskets? Just wondering if I remove the pump top and its clean if I can put it back together and start looking elsewhere for the running issue or if I will have to get a gasket in to seal it back.
that much acetone seems a little harsh and drastic. Check your fuel supply, or run on a temporary tank, and see how it runs. I wouldn't go adding lots of acetone, or opening up the injection pump until you've tried a few things first. If you knew the fuel was gunked up bad, and/or contaminated, AND you had tried other solutions, then some acetone might be in order. It sounds like this runs nice, just won't handle a load, plus extremely low hours, make sure it's getting plenty of good fuel, then let it run a couple hours to see if it improves.
If you want to add a cleaner to the filter get some Stanadyne diesel treatment , that is recommended by the injection shop I use and it sometimes works on sticky pumps. Check the easy things first before taking the pump apart. Bob
Update: didn't have a lot of time to put in hours at the shop today but I did go take a good look at things. I am almost positive my issue is purely the fuel. Today I fired it up and it ran for maybe a minute (unloaded) before the engine started shaking and shutting off. I put some of the fuel on my glove and it lacked any of the sharp scent of diesel. Certainly old fuel and possibly contaminated with moisture among other things. Now I am not saying that flushing the fuel tank and lines and new fuel will necessarily fix it because there might be rust and gunk in the injection pump but I do think its the best first step. Worst part is the damn tank is 2/3rd full!
One other thing to think about. On a lot of air compressors, the throttle is held wide open by a spring. The air cylinder hooked to the throttle actually slows the engine down when it activates, not speeds it up. When air pressure builds, it slows the engine down. When air pressure drops, the spring is allowed to speed the engine up. When that spring on the injection pump breaks, it really throws you for a loop until you realize how it works. Not saying it's the case here, just something I learned along the way that was unexpected. Something to be aware of.
Thanks. Yeah I checked throttle actuation and even move the throttle by hand to try and keep it alive.
If going the acetone route, it NEEDS to be a mix of ATF and acetone. Straight acetone won't lubricate and can damage the IP. 50/50 max acetone.
I'd like to take the top cover off the pump before even trying to start it but 2 questions. Can I open the top to look in and still be able to put the top back on without a gasket replacement? Will I be able to spray off any debris or sludge while the cover is off? I verified the stock lift pump works but also the fuel in there was rather old and sludgy so I would like to clean anything I can see in there if you think its possible.
Yes and yes.. The top cover has a square cut trapped seal that’s reusable.. U can blow out any debris.. If u find any black “coffee grounds” or “mouse turds” in the housing, it’s a tell-tale sign of a bigger problem.
Thank you! After I drained my fuel tank I stuck my borescope in there and I saw nice clean tank walls but there was what I would call coffee grounds on the floor of the tank . Is the flex ring that I assume has let go going to be visible from the top?
The coffee grounds will be visible in the return fitting on top of the pump, that's what plugs up and shuts down the pump. If you take the fitting off, all of the fitting so you can see into the top of the pump, then start it, or blow it out and flush so it's clear, and then it runs and keeps running, then you have your answer. it will plug again, and if you keep cleaning it eventually it will run away, so it's pumpguy time.
I think that there is a really good chance the pump has to come off once I remove the top. Hoping to remove top tomorrow and then remove pump right afterward. Is there a way to lock the engine and pump like in a cummins? Or just line up the lines in the pump window and be sure not to move the engine while pump is out being rebuilt? Oh also - those two wires on top of the pump...I tried to remove the hex nuts first but it would slowly spin the whole stud...can I leave them on and just remove the 5 sided security bolts to take the cover off?
Yes.. or get yourself an 11/32 wrench to hold the bottom nuts.
Any idea if I can lock the engine in time?
I don't believe so. Deere's usually just rotate to TDC on on the crank marks. With the DE pumps would insert a bolt (or a 3/8" bit socket) to hold it in time. Here's a link to the mechanical fuel system manual. If yours is a DB series pump, the procedure should be on page 72. https://dealers.doosanportablepower...5N JD/CTM207 JD_4045_6068_Mechanical_Fuel.pdf
Thank you all. Well I took the top off the pump and there wasn't a single coffee ground in there. I don't know what I saw in the fuel tank with my camera but I don't think it had anything to do with the flex ring. Anyway, I had left ATF/acetone in the system for about 48 hours and drained the tank of really rancid smelling fuel. Today bled the engine and it fired right up. Ran a little and shutoff - then I realized my return wasn't submerged in fuel and that may have been hurting me. So I put both the feed line and return line a the test bottle of diesel and the machine fired up and stayed on. Runs beautifully. The sludgy diesel was the issue and thanks to each of you folks its fixed. Well we had a CAV pump 4239 come in the shop and I think the plungers may be stuck...starting a new thread on that!
Glad it started BUT.. it’s possible ALL the flex ring made it to the tank..& there’s none in the pump.. seen it 1000x.. especially if there’s no checkball in the return fitting in the top cover.. Once u get it going and back to work, watch out for the rpm’s raising and falling..(hunting) THATS your warning that there no more flex ring... and if u let it go to long, the engine will run away.. Good luck
Thank you for the continued good information. Based on your post I decided to take it back out of the shop and let it run 2 warm up cycles today. I ran it unloaded and fully loaded for some time. No hunting both unloaded or loaded. For now I am just going to do 1 more fuel filter swap, rinse the tank, and run her. If I notice hunting I'll know that ring is softening or letting go and get the pump pulled.