Junkyard's post on the winch trucks had me wondering about how much longer these antiques are going to be supported. Well lo and behold I found this: http://www.mtu-report.com/History/Detroit-Diesel-2-Cycle-engines/Keeping-a-good-thing-going According to that, they are still building new 53, 71 and 92 series for the military. What kind of machines are they going into? What level of computerization? What level of emissions? At least it is encouraging that they are still being made. Then we have a reasonable expectation of continued parts support for some time. I know of only 2 still running in this county. I am sure there are more but you don't see them much.
Interesting thought. We still see them in oilfield stuff although not as much as we did 15 years ago. My haul truck at the turn of the millennium was an older International, 6V92TA. I know the military likes them because they'll run on just about anything and aren't terribly complicated to work on. I would assume anything that isn't subject to the various emissions regulations would be fair game. I couldn't begin to tell you where those areas are and how well they'd fit with the current way of training mechanics. Kind of amazing the old 2 stroke has made it all these years. I like the quirky old girls. Always had to slam my hand in the door of the ole binder so I was mad enough to drive it right! Nothing better than one winding down from a stuck injector after you choke it out or shut the fuel off! Junkyard
Just because they still produce parts and possibly complete engines doesn't mean that they will supply them to our markets I hate to say. A few years ago I was at a conference dealing with maintenance management and one of the questions that came up was whether or not the major engine manufacturers would continue to build non US complying engines for the overseas markets. None of the representatives would answer the question which was an obvious conclusion to the audience that the answer was yes. As far as the US Military goes I don't know of any new machines being produced with a 2 stroke diesel but maybe someone on the forum could confirm that.
Oshkosh 1070 heavy equipment transporter uses a 8v92 at 500 hp, some I believe with a DDEC controler- 500 hp. I've heard with a abrams on they get about 2 gallons to the mile http://www.govliquidation.com/auction/view?auctionId=11729672&convertTo=USD# M113 armored personel carrier uses 6v53 at 350 hp https://springfield.craigslist.org/hvo/5905304286.html I see both engines come up on surplus auctions. Some are DDEC, some are not. I believe the DDEC heads are not interchangeable with the old style, the injectors are all electrically fired. I think they use the 8v92's in more that just the Heavy equipment transporter- maybe some of the engineer's tracked vehicles?
There was a big shake up a few years ago, when govliquidations still sold the military surplus trucks. The EPA stopped all sales of the surplus trucks for a while, because no military trucks meet emissions, or are even tested for it. How about some irony there:usa. If I was in Cali dealing with their issues, and driving right beside a military truck convoy, I'd throw a fit. But that's why I don't live in California. Some agreement was reached, and they started selling them again. Iron planet sells the rolling stock, govliquidations sells parts. I have seen some HET's on Iron Planet, but they bring big $, and I'd hate to keep it fueled. They would make one bad heavy duty, go anywhere wrecker though.
My guess would be for servicing the vast inventory of combat & ground support vehicles the US military currently uses with the Detroit power plant . M109 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M109_howitzer M113 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M113_armored_personnel_carrier#Recent_history M992 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M992_Field_Artillery_Ammunition_Support_Vehicle From what I could tell from the wiki articles these rigs aint goin anywhere soon . Sounds like they plan to use them for awhile . 6000 M113's still in the fleet and wont be phased out until 2030 . That's quite a long run from it's beginning in the early 1960's https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M113_armored_personnel_carrier#Replacement Looks like you can get a brand new M113 from BAE systems , 6 V 53 T engine . I like it , could see many uses for something like this on a job site . http://www.baesystems.com/en-us/product/m113-family-of-vehicles Spec sheet http://www.baesystems.com/en-us/download-en-us/20151124121533/1434555467867.pdf
Did someone say "2 stroke Detroit"? I love 'em, I take care of a bunch in off road equipment and older seasonal farm trucks. I have to wonder... just how much sheer noise that 350HP 6v53 makes. I think that second to the 6-110, the 6v53 is probably the most obnoxiously noisy engine Detroit ever built. One local farmer had 10 in old IH trucks with 653 Allisons and you could hear their tortured howling a couple miles away.
Same way RZ , We still run 10 Detroit engines in various trucks & equipment . They are reliable ,cost effective to repair , and get the job done . What more could ya want ? Not a bit surprised that the military still keeps them in service in certain sectors . Smart move ! I compare the Detroit to the " small block chevy engine " . Look at the huge numbers produced & sold to customers over the years . With all the aftermarket sources I imagine there will be parts supply for many years . http://www.agkits.com/Detroit-Diesel-Engine-Rebuild-Kits-8V71.aspx http://www.agkits.com/Detroit-Diesel-Engine-Rebuild-Kits-4-53.aspx
And, don't forget, you can still get parts for your old 6-110 from W.W. Williams. I think the old Detroit 2 strokes will be with us for a long time.
A friend had a 5 yard Deere loader, repowered with a 8V71..... scariest piece of equipment I've ever ran. Throttle up going into a pile and you swore that Detroit was going to climb right up your arse.....lol. Ed
I never noticed them until I got the P&H, which has two. Now I notice them more. About a year ago I was dealing with a shop that was putting together small pump rigs and they were using Detroits. One of those M1070s along with its matching M1000 trailer would be cool. And when you think about how much truck that is and some of the off-road features its got, I don't see the price as too terrible (I see them go for around 15k-20k). There is a guy on YouTube that uses one as along truck in some rainforest.
I notice that opinions of them seem varied depending on what part of the country you are in. Around here they were generally looked at as the cheap base engine for trucks. If it was a fleet truck and you didn't care, it got a Detroit. If it was a O/O that had certain pride and had to keep up with his buddies at the diner, then it was a Cat or Cummins. They would argue about which was better at the diner. Years went by and Detroits mostly disappeared except for fire trucks and old water trucks that did not run a whole lot of miles, and certain cement mixers (all ours here are front engine rear discharge smaller ones). I think high fuel costs may have killed off the remainder, also. Then some of the old timers have become nostalgic about them but those guys are getting past retirement age. The only one I know of now is one in a fire truck which is exempt from the anti-grandfathering emissions craziness, and I was in the woods and saw a big old IH watering roads.
Unless he wants stupid $ I'll buy at least one of the old winch trucks. Also assuming it's not hammered. 6-71 and a 10 speed. Says he has two old Brigadiers setup like that. One later model Volvo with what I assume is a 60 series by his ad. Also has a 1970 Chevy with a little 4 ton crane. Might end up with a bunch of iron cheap. Of course I'll have to explain my new toys to the better half! I hope he hasn't torn the Allis down too far..... Pics will come tomorrow on the HD16 post I made. Junkyard
There's still quite a few fire trucks in the City of Knoxville fire dept fleet that have 8V-92 Detroits. I don't know if you can still purchase new fire trucks with the 2 stroke Detroit. Like has been said, it's mainly emission laws that killed them. I think one of the things that made the 2 stroke Detroit so popular in so many military and machinery applications was that by design you could build the engine to suit the application. CW rotation or CCW, starter on left or starter on right. Simply rotating the head would put the exhaust manifold on left or right. Plus the drives for accessories like compressors or pumps. Not to mention the governor, either standard governor or variable speed. I can't think of any other diesel engine that is so adaptable to any given application.
Coast Guard uses the 6V92TA in their 47' Motor Life Boat. Two per vessel.
A couple of years ago I was behind a National Guard armored troop carrier in our local 4th of July parade. It had that unmistakeable 2 stroke scream. After the parade I asked the driver what was in it. He showed me the twin turboed 6-71 putting out what he said was just under 500 HP. He made my day when he threw sod with all six tires with a "burp" of the throttle when he left the staging area. By the way I have a 8-71 setting here with under 2000 miles on a rebuild if anyone needs one. Still in the truck so can be ran to check it out.
I have two in daily service. Grove tms 300 with a 6-71 inline, really great on fuel on a jobsite. Not enough engine for 80,000lbs in hills. It's not really too bad if you've got a flat run, without a lot of stop and go. P&H t650 with a 6v-92ta. Much better hp wise. Uses much more fuel also (imagine that ). I have a mechanic shop a hour away from me that is a old bus repair center. They are the only ones I have run overhead/rack. They actually like me bringing them in, they don't see much of the 2 stroke stuff anymore. Most of their new work is with 60 series. Nothing sounds quite like a detroit revving up. Worked the other day with a young guy, we had done a lot of work together last year: "boy I've missed the sound of that crane". Which is not what I usually think after running it 8 or 10 hours. Crane work is really hard on a engine. Not from over work, but from excessive idleing. With the pumps engaged, it really doesn't get the engine working hard enough. It's better for that detroit to really run, but in crane rental work, I seldom run hard on the jobsites. If you're not doing anything, I can't stand to have that engine sitting there running wide open. I had the head off my 6-71 this summer because of a stuck valve, it just had carbon keeping it open a little bit, and I know it's from too much idleing, but I don't know how to change that. I saw that 6v53 for sale by me, as military surplus, and I thought it was a misprint at 350hp. That's really shoving the fuel to a pretty small motor, they must have a big cooling system, and I bet engine life isn't great. It's probably at the top of it's rpm range to make that hp. 2,800rpm All that said, I have no real complaints other than noise with my Detroits. They snort a little oil out of the drains when they first start up, and they tend to vibrate bolts loose, but they are very reliable. I've heard it said "No engine can have more $%it wrong with it than a Detroit, and still get you home". Which I much prefer over today's overly sensored motors. Some of those you could probably say the reverse " no engine could have less wrong with it and still leave you stranded?":cool2
FWIW: How about a 20V-149! This is a so-so video, but it has a 20V-149 in it (the second engine, in the vid). Looks like a Stewart-Stevenson generator. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1ZjKlvWJiSU A 8V-149 with two 6V-149's bolted to it, one on each end!
Old boy with the white mustache, suspenders and toothpicks got a pretty good grin when they let her go to 1800 RPM there
Music to my ears.
I still look after a bunch of old Detroit's. No problems getting parts yet, I've actually had more trouble getting parts for 70's Cummins engines. One of them is a 4-53 in a Whiting 9TM Trackmobile, still slugging it out and screaming all day long. There's also a 8V-53 in a fire truck, and three 8V-92TA's stationary engines, a 16V-92TA gen set, a 4-71 in a rail tamper, and a 6-71 pump. Even the smell of the exhaust is different.....sweeter somehow. I'm pretty sure they can't be sold for new applications anymore. Emission regulations.
71 series Detroit's have been popular in larger pleasure boats and work boats for years. I suspect the marine industry will keep rebuilding them and supplying parts for years. Rick
My industry is pretty well finished with the 2 strokes. It is getting to be a rare site to see one anymore. They are out there but it seems as they fail, a series 60 will get rolled into its place. Many reasons for that. Fuel economy being the big one. When you can pay off the cost of the engine and the mods to install it in less than 2 years in fuel savings alone, you really have to look at doing it. I was also finding that DECENT parts were becoming a problem. Lots of our old logging machines are from the 80's. They have had a long hard life. Those engines have been rebuilt more than once and now the blocks are pretty much done. A good core block to rebuild can be really hard to find. So the answer has been to swap over to something else. I think we have 2 12V71's left in our division, the one big HDX tanker truck and the KW850 sand truck for the winter months. Neither truck gets much use. We were having some electrical issues on the sander a few weeks ago, It stalled on a hill and the batts were dead. By the time we got out there to get it running again, it was cooled down pretty good (-10C out there, really cold for the coast) That ROAR when it sprang to life takes me back to when I was a wet behind the ears apprentice and everything we had was detroit powered. There is no sound like it.
When I worked in the offshore oil industry 17 years ago, Detroits were the most common diesel engine around. In many of those applications they didn't get more than 1000 hours on them in their lifetimes. The original investment was low and parts were very easy to find. 671 and 471 were the most common. A lot of cranes had 353 and 453 engines. The 53 series is the source of some confusion as they run 2600-2800 RPM, which back then was faster than any other diesels used in the industry. That meant different hydraulic pumps and different flow rates. I noticed back then that Detroit had it's heels dug into the marine industry even more so than the oilfield. Almost every supply boat and crew boat was Detroit powered. I wonder if this is still true. Personally I never was a Detroit fan, but with all the changes that have taken place in the last 20 years, I wouldn't hesitate to buy a piece of equipment because it's Detroit powered. I think that there have been so many of them produced worldwide that getting parts is not going to be much of a problem in the future.
4-53 blocks are getting a little scarce around here. Nearly all other parts for 53 and 71 series are still in stock in Duluth.
Regarding the fuel consumption, I was never sure if that was a real issue or just trucker stories. I am sure some of you had fleets with numbers to compare. Care to share any? As for me, in fire trucks, we had one with a DDEC 6v92 and another newer with an ISC Cummins. Fire trucks are not a great comparison because they don't travel much and run stationary a lot but IIRC it was like 4 MPG on the Detroit and 10 MPG on the Cummins. Although the Cummins had a bit less power, obviously.
A farmer gave me a 3-53 pump engine the other day, complete and running. I was going to keep it but I put it on "consignment" at R&L Diesel in Stockton. I helped out at R&L Diesel for a couple weeks tearing down some old detroits, really cool engines, truly an end to an era. They used to employ 30+ people working on Detroit powered trucks and equipment...now they have 1 mechanic left assembling engines for what customers are left, seemed like mostly farmers in the central valley and than some other outfits nationwide who had unique equipment powered by 2-strokes. I know parts kits are still readily available, like through Interstate Mcbee and ESCO. I have always been attracted to to 71 series engines because of there resemblance to EMD 567 Locomotive engines. The crankcase covers are very similar looking, its like they came from the same era, after all they were both GM Diesels.
The nearby local VFD got in a new International with all the computers....thing seems to be down more than up. As far as detroits go, you just kick em in the ass and they run. Sure they are loud, use more fuel, and slobber oil, but when a fire department need to go, they need to go NOW ! I'm sure if your house/shop was on fire, you'd want your local VFD to have a truck that can show up fast. I remember reading a spec. once for a Detroit powered backup genset. It stated 5 seconds from start to full load. I would assume that meant having the coolant heated externally though. I see the detroits around here on Amish sawmills. And I have said that "A 14 year old Amish kid with a crescent wrench can keep one running". I have an older diesel engine textbook, and they showed the Detroit (new at that time) as from a company called "Winton" and GM purchased the design from them. I took a 4-71 head into Cleveland to get welded, and the shop there had some old, large heads (individual cylinders) and the owner said they were "Cleveland" diesels, used on the tugboats around town, I can't recall if they were the predecessor to the Winton/Detroit or just very similar. Oil consumption, I am told because the oil rings scrape down the cylinders, and drive the oil out the ports into the windbox area, then get's blown into the cylinder to get burned. I talked with an older over the road trucker, he said it was common in the run across the country (3000 miles) to use a 5 gallon bucket of oil. As far as I'm concerned, the fire departments should be allowed a waiver to use detroits even though they don't meet current emission standards, based on the very little usage and the emergency nature of their work.
A good friend of mine worked for Emerson Diesel when they were the authorized Detroit Dealer here in the Northwest. He had many great stories. He was working the generator shacks on the Alaskan pipeline taking care of Detroit powered generators. He was in a generator shack setting the valves and injectors on a V-16 and had just finished when that engine came alive on demand. Scared the crap out of him, he realized he forgot to lock it out of service. Two great things about Saltwater Chevy's. It's the fastest engine to go full throttle cold without stumbling, great for stationary use. And as long as the engine is in good condition, good starting system and good fuel it will fire faster than any other diesel engine in sub-zero temps. RZucker do you remember George Rominger trucking in Ellensburg? No joke folks-when George bought a new truck or had an engine rebuilt the oil drain plugs were only removed when engine work was being done. The oil was never drained-just added to and oil filters changed every 12,000 miles. All George ever owned were two strokes. I tore a 8V92 down that lost a cam at 840,000 miles, it's first major problem. It was the filthiest engine I ever worked on, took weeks to get my hands clean. Truck Shop
When I turned wrenches on them for the crane company in town that's how they "serviced" their motors. Spin on a fresh filter and top it off. What I never understood though was they used high dollar DA oil and we pulled samples.....that always baffled me. The foreman blew about five sheets of tin off the shop roof when the lock ring let go on a Dayton rim. Thankfully only a 10.00-20 and not one of the big crane tires. We had one of the big ones in the cage when the sidewall blew out. Ripped the cage off the wall, blew threw the liner panel of the wall and threw the mechanic Larry who weighed a good 300 across the shop like a rag doll. If I'm not mistaken that happened on 9/11. Like the actual day when the **** hit the fan. Funny the crap you remember. I'm still torn on the ole winch truck. Need it like a hole in the head. There's just something about that old stuff..... Junkyard
That's funny about the filthy engine oil, truck shop. I've noticed too that the oil from a detroit is different after being used, somehow darker and sticks down in the cracks of your hands. I've never heard of the not changing oil. Wouldn't fuel dilution be a problem? I can usually tell when my 6-71 is getting close to needing changed, because it will start to use a little oil. Early on, after a oil change, it burns very little. I guess I also don't find them being terribly great cold weather starters. My 6-71 I usually crank it a little, leave it set and cook a bit, then crank it over again and it goes. Block heater makes it go easy. My 6v92 really likes to be plugged in if its much below 20 deg. f . I know it has quite a few more hours on the reman than my 6-71 has. My old cat 3208's had their troubles, but cold starting wasn't one of them, they seemed to barely crank and they were running. Willie 59 and a few other on here really preach the straight 40 weight oil and low ash formula (I use delo 100). It's what I've always used since reading up on them, and have had good luck. It can be hard to purchase (I order mine). wornout wrench- have you personally done a series 60 in a repower? My 6-71 has been in the schedule to be replaced with a big cam cummins for about 5 years now, but I've thought about using a 60 series. I'm not a big electronics fan, but its the way of the future, and the fuel economy with the hp they have is pretty amazing. I bobtailed a 98 westernstar 500hp detroit about 400 miles this year, and averaged right at 11 mpg. My 6v92 likes its fuel, and I know the 444 big cam on my shop floor (my original repower plan) will probably not be a fuel pincher either. I've found a complete running truck for not too much $ and thought about pulling it, electronics and all, and putting it in the crane.
Boy, do I remember those trucks. Always pretty on the outside, dual chrome everything and the quad Grover horns. Just the other day I saw one of his old cabovers out in a cornfield loading corn from a combine. Sadly those tall, graceful stacks were bobbed off about a foot above the cab. I have heard the filter only story elsewhere too, I believe Consolidated Freightways did the same with their Detroits.
Because it fires every time the piston comes up it has a better chance at starting cold, at least that's what I have found. And oil is also food for a saltwater chevy. So by the time it's run 15,000 miles it's already had half an oil change. And yah straight 40. Truck Shop
George had the only KW-K100 with a 86" cab and it was a five window cab like an old chevy pickup. Had a 8v-71 and 5x4 1968 I believe.
A well tuned 71N should be an easy starter in the cold. What I used to do was pull the stop knob out, crank it about 3 times waiting 20-30 seconds between cranks to let the pistons heat up, then start cranking and push the knob in slow. If the temps were really low it got a shot of nose candy and usually off it would go. Turbo engines could be a bit cantankerous in the cold.
An old W.W. Williams mechanic told me if you bar them over use a ratchet because they come to life so easily and I believe it. But does anybody care to comment on relative fuel usage? They always had a reputation as fuel drinkers but I kind of wonder if it was deserved.
I knew a guy that lit off a hot engine with a ratchet. I always clamped the shutdown cable in the off position before I barred a cold one over. As far as fuel usage... Being a 2 stroke there is probably some loss off efficiency there, but I recall 8V92's running 5+ mpg loaded full time at 80K gross.
As far as fuel usage, I don't really track mileage exactly with the cranes, lots of short runs and idle time, with some pulling hard on trips (always loaded), but I do keep track how much fuel goes through each crane after every job so I've got a pretty good idea. The 6-71 natural in my tms 300 (80,000lbs) has a 100 gal tank. If you are just on a jobsite, not traveling (drive there, crane stays for the week, then drive crane home), you can make all week (your a little worried on friday, but it will last all week). You've got to have some traveling in on a big day to burn over 20-30 gallons. My 6v92 in my 70 ton crane (93,000lbs) however has a 80 gallon tank. One day isn't a issue. If you drive quite a ways to a job (+40 miles),and run all day, the next day is a little worrysome. It's not hard to burn 50 gallons in a day with it. I don't know what size injectors are in it. Factory rating for the crane says 350hp for the 6v92 vs 230hp for the 6-71. Compared to other crane's I've run that are similar size and hp ratings I would say the 6-71 is easy on fuel. It uses similar to even less fuel than my 8.3 cummins (250hp) in my tms 250's that weigh 25,000lbs less. I have a 40 ton grove rough terrain that weighs 66,000lbs, if your roading around on a jobsite much, and really working it, its 6bt will use just as much fuel as my 8.3 cummins, because the driving it around works it too hard. That one has suprised me, I thought the 6bt wouldn't use too much fuel, but I think the 6-71 is less than it also, when doing comparable work in a day. The 6v92 is on the thirsty side, but not horrible. I ran a similar size crane in Iowa, a mid 90's 70 ton grove with 400hp m11. I would say the fuel usage was real similar. The worst fuel usage crane I've been on recently was a mid 2000's link belt 90 ton truck crane, I ran for a couple weeks. It had a big c-15 cat with the regen burner/ particulate trap in it. 100 gal tank was good for one day, but by noon the next day- you had to have fuel. I was burning 60-70 gallons on a jobsite setting precast (so just hyd pumps, no traveling). Between the horrible fuel usage and the regen difficulties, I wouldn't own that crane. During regen cycles , you weren't able to run throttle with the pumps in, or it would stop regen cycle. Skip the regen 3 times and it shut you off. No way to manually regen without a laptop. Would usually signal for a regen about 10 am, when you're just getting going. Nothing like shutting down for 30+ minutes for it to regen with 6-7 semi's setting there and 10 guys waiting to set precast. Sometimes during regen, it would shut itself off because the temps in the engine compartment would get too high, not enough airflow in the closed up engine compartment. I was not impressed. No experience with a 8-71 or 8v92, or any of the bigger marine stuff. I think a 2 stroke design is more efficient , they just cant meet emissions standards.
Here I go on a rabbit trail on my own thread but I found that on a Cummins 8.3 you could adjust the idle speed from 600-800. I always liked it at 600 because it made maneuvering easier. However the PTO pump would do almost full capacity at 800 so if it was in the middle of a regen cycle and I needed to pump I would bump the idle up to 800 and let it pump and regen at the same time. I don't know if this could work on the C-15 but it worked pretty good for me.
As I recall the N engines were advanced cam timing which I was told made them good starters. I worked on some boats that had the old Gray Marines with two valve heads and standard cam timing and they needed cocaine at 40 degrees F. I've heard much the same thing with the turbo engines as I was told those were one tooth retarded cam timing. The buzzers in the logging trucks didn't go too long. Most everyone turned to Cummins in the day when the 350s came out and when the Big Cams hit the woods the Jimmys just kind of disappeared. Then the Cat 3406 hit the woods and the Jimmys only showed up with rookie drivers that were being punished for doing something dumb. The screamers did run real fast going up the grades empty. It was a good thing they were going down hill out of the mountains most of the time with a load. They were real sensitive to lugging.
As for starting ease of a 4-71 with N-65's. I know of one that just the other day that had been sitting since April of 2015. Now it was in a semi-heated store room, probably 40-50ºF. Just for kicks I pushed in the go button and despite a somewhat slow crank from a 12 volt battery that had also not been charged in that time, it only took a second or two and was up and running. This is a very low hours engine that last saw a real load on it maybe 20 years ago and even back then it did not get worked hard enough to burn the paint off the exhaust manifold! It will be a shame when it ends up in a scrap trailer some day when company management decides they have no use for it but won't sell it because they want too much money for it! It started life as a two valve head engine in a NorthWest Crane. When crane was scraped, probably another sad story, it was saved. Then when there was a need for a PTO engine to run a portable crusher we rebuilt it and upgraded to the four valve head, radiator and PTO clutch included along with emergency shut down controls. Got used for a short season then put in storage.
Other factors in cold starting... the non turbo engines had higher compression ratios which helps starting so long as cranking speed is the same. Many I've been around had air starters that spun them over in an instant and no worries about toasting the starter.
Yep, 18 to 1 in an N and 16 to 1 in a T. I'm kind of chuckling over the comments about the lack of lugging ability they had, displacement is the key to torque. If anybody cares to do the math on a 71 series, it comes out to 426ci on a 238HP 6-71, 568ci in a 318HP 8V71, and 852ci in the 475HP 12V71... those HP numbers are without a turbo. How much HP can an 855ci Cummins make without a turbo?... 250. The 12V71 was no slouch for torque in my book. And at 475HP WITHOUT a turbo...? Cummins had to resort to "Old Double Trouble" to match that. And those weren't exactly successful engines. Personally, my favorite 2 stroke to drive was the 8V92... good power in the 430's and really good starting torque. With the right treatment they could go all the way to 500+ HP easy.
Good points RZ ! When you consider the cubic inch comparison the Detroit is quite a power house in the package . Would be interesting to see total production numbers from the beginning in 1938 to present . Imagine it would be a crazy staggering number of engines . The design is almost 80 years old and still being used . That speaks volumes in itself .:yup Can any other Diesel engine company lay claim to that long of a run on a series engine ?
I just read an article that said 3.5 million produced since 1940. Also stated over 500,000 still in use. Seems low to me.... I had talked myself out of that winch truck but this thread has me itching for one. Maybe I'll find an old rig with a 12v71 to build my next service truck out of! Junkyard
Stories are just that in most cases, here are two that I was a part of that are true blue. When I was working for a repair and towing company in the mid 80's we got a state patrol call for an impound on a semi on I-90 east of Ellensburg Wa. So the boss and I drove out in a one ton rig just planing on driving it back to the lot. When we got there it was 10:00 PM and the stater was waiting for us with the subject in the back of the cruiser. Kevin the boss went to tell the cop what we were going to do and I went and looked the truck over with a flashlight. I came back to the cop car and the rear window was cracked so the arrested driver {who had 11 failures to appear** could hear me. I said Quote ** Damn that thing is a Hot Rod-buzzin dozen with twin turbos** that driver about came unglued. Screaming at me to be nice to his truck. It was a 110 sleep KW100 and it did haul ***. The other was a guy out of Indio Calif. that had a Mack Superliner with a V-12 built by a marine shop in Long Beach. The color of the truck was black and it had a name painted on the top front of hood that I cannot repeat. But it truly was the fastest thing on I-5, a real rocket. I also new another fellow that had a extremely turned up 3408, he admitted he could not run with that Mack. I saw it one time at Biggs Junction I-84 & 97 with the hood up at the truck stop. It was a mess of turbos and polished tubing under there. Truck Shop
Horsepower is only the ability to accelerate. Torque is what moves loads and the Detroits were never any competition to the comparable horsepower anything. Put a 350 Detroit on flat land and it would outrun any 350 Cummins or Cat. Put the same rig pulling the Rockies or Cascades and there weren't enough gears for the buzzing ones to be in sight when the four strokers cleared the top of the mountain. You had to increase the number of cylinders to get the necessary torque which meant you had to pay the piper for the extra fuel it took to make the same time at the end of the trip. I enjoyed them when I was young and not paying the bills. I still like listening to them and talking stories of times gone by. People got good at fixing them because there were so many and you had to do it so often. I'm not unhappy that they are being relegated to the past.
Yair . . . Dunno. They did everything I ever needed. If the world could only have one diesel engine family the 71 series would be it I once hauled a D9G about four hundred miles with a 6-71 in a Pete. Heavy scrub canopy, angle blade with over the top treepusher, single tine Kelly. Lord knows what I was grossing. Hot, over forty C and the bitumen was melting. Two rows of eight 8.25-16's on the trailer and the only time we stopped was to change tyres . . . back it off the blacktop unload tractor, chain around tree pusher, lift arse end of trailer, fit spares, rinse and repeat as required. Fun times but that Jimmy never missed a beat, ran up near the red at times but never overheated . . . even if there had been 400hp on tap the limitation was the tyres. No one here has mentioned they were like a Commer Knocker and, on a hill wouldn't hold you worth a damn. That could be a real issue with the brakes we had at the time. Cheers.
I wonder how many here have heard of or driven the Commer Knockers?
Not me. But I do admit with the exhaust valves opening at the at the top of every piston stroke the Detroits didn't have much retarding capacity without a well adjusted Jacobs brake.
Yeah John , my guess is the military is still keeping them around due to how simple the engine is and it's performance in the past . That's what got the thread started . Detroit 2-Cycles in 2017 + Would be a good idea to have new cutting edge equipment with all the electronics & teck to go with it . An even better idea to keep some " old school " in the fleet that cant be " hacked " by a computer or effected by an electro magnetic pulse . They will be around for a long time bro .
Yeah those Detroits were really troublesome engines (SARC). I don't recall any Detroits pulling headbolt threads, or leaking water under the liners, or melting down pistons. All big issues with Cummins engines in the same day. As far as "horsepower", the FFC's, NTA's, and NTC Cummins all had to be wound tight to get full power too. So... Back in the day there was no clear winner, I've run both an NTC 350 and an 8V71T 350 over Snoqualmie and in "the day" I preferred the Detroit. It pulled better without the heat, and usually heat on the pyro means wasted fuel.
I think the "lack of torque: perceived by many is just a consequence of the bone simple fuel system. The injector injects so many mm3 per stroke and that is that. At 1400 RPM it is only going to be able to inject 2/3 the fuel as at 2100 RPM so it will theoretically have only 2/3 power at that point. Torque remains relatively constant. No torque rise. Compare that to a Cummins with PT injection. The fuel meters through the hole mostly independent of engine RPM. So at 1400 RPM the engine is still injecting the same amount of fuel but more on each stroke so torque is rising as the engine lugs down. Horsepower remains relatively constant. Detroit did have TT (tailored torque) which I don't know if I ever operated one but my understanding is that the "governor" was modified (would have needed larger injectors too) so that it would feed more fuel per stroke as the engine slowed down to mimic the feel of a Cummins or Cat. I do know that with DDEC there was no rack any more, each injector was electrically fired and thus there was no reason at all for torque to be any different from any other engine as the computer controlled everything. This is what I did drive and I know that lugging down to 1400 was no problem at all but the DDEC 92 series engines may have had other modifications internally so that liner and piston scoring was not such an issue as it was reputed to be on the older ones. I do know that the had the "bypass blower" on this model which meant that when it was up on the turbo the air from the turbo was going straight into the air box and not through the blower any more except what air the blower always moved because it was still there and running. Also jacket water aftercooling.
You hit the nail on the head with the "Tailor Torque" statement. Those were very large injectors and you had to lug the engine to compress the TT springs in the governor to access full fuel at the lower rpms... Ergo what DDC called constant horsepower at differing rpms. ETA, I worked for one company that had an 8V92 "Fuel Squeezer" that their former mechanic could not tune for whatever reason. So he put a standard LS governor capsule in it and called it good, the "squeezers" had huge injectors meant to run at low speed. This thing ended up well over 500+HP and unless you really trained a driver it ate drive tires and u-joints like crazy. I drove it myself once and with a full legal load on the drivers it would still spin tires in 3rd gear if you jumped on it hard.
That one made me laugh RZ ! Good points . We use both Cummins & Detroit engines in the fleet . Each one has it's place . http://www.heavytruckforums.com/showthread.php?263-Some-Holmes-750-action&p=2462&viewfull=1#post2462 If anyone don't like it .... Go cry somewhere else ! This is a heavy equipment forum . LOL !
I think we can all agree the old Detroit green leaker two strokers are a love/hate relationship. And I think it's fair to say it was a unique engine, hard to compare or be comparable to any other brand 4 stroke diesel. But their unique traits made them an engine of legend. I once got a call from a large corn processing plant in my area, their Whiting Trackmobile was done, 4-53 engine. Sure enough, she was toast, couldn't even get it to fire off with nose candy, and with a Trackmobile being a heavy little plant, couldn't really get it loaded on a trailer without its own power. So, in-frame overhaul on site. Crankshaft was fine, just dropped new pistons and liners in it, rebuilt head, new oil pump, had it back up and running in short order. Even at that time it amazed me how it seemed that engine was designed to be busted apart and put back together right down to the slightest detail. Customer was happy when it roared to life.
One thing I really liked about 71 series Detroits is that I could easily and quickly assess the condition of the rings by pulling the air box covers off and bumping it over until the rings were even with the intake ports on the sleeves. Detroit rings have a line on the wear portion of the rings ( where they contact the sleeves) to facilitate the assessment. Back in the early 80's when I worked on diesels for a living, there were 2 kinds of diesel mechanics; the kind who mainly worked on Detroits and the kind who mainly worked on everything else. I was the latter type.
Well put willie . We had a similar event as the Trackmobile when the 8- V-71 in the scraper went " ka- bang " . Cleaned all the shrapnel out of the air box , patched a hole in the block & in framed it on job site . We got lucky as the crankshaft was still in good shape . Always a good feeling to hear them roar back to life after a disaster . HeavyEquipmentForums
I have a 2005 KW W900L that scattered a C-15. Anybody got a 12v71 laying around... I smell a repower! Wouldn't that be a sight. Well more a sound. Late model truck with a buzzin dozen in it. Sounds just crazy enough to work :drinkup Junkyard
Sad thing is a couple years back where I worked we had an R-35 Terex haul truck with a 12V-71 in it. It was a running truck but engine had been let go for too many years and needed some love and care but would still haul a load to the crusher. Might have only needed some injectors and a tune up. Anyhow when the winning bidder came to pick it up after loading it on the trailer they measured the overall height then took a torch and cut the front suspension into! When my boss asked why they did that guy said well we only wanted the Allison Transmission, the rest is going in the scrap bin!
I didn't hear that. I'm a hoarder when it comes to stuff like that. Can't bring myself to scrap something I "might" be able to use. I think my grandpa drilled that into me having farmed through the depression. Wife hates it! Junkyard
I've seen that trait in mechanics who have worked way up north on the "fly-in" camp jobs too. Those guys don't throw anything away, not a nut, washer, or scrap of wood even. Not a bad thing at all.
Adelman's has a 12 V 71 at $ 4,750.00 . They keep a pretty good inventory of Detroit's . http://www.adelmans.com/detroit The 16V71TT would make a wild road tractor engine . http://www.adelmans.com/detroit-diesel-used-engine-16v71tt-16va6682
I was still a teenager, working on the 20' x 20' shop bay overhead doors at Rudd Equipment in Corbin KY, the door I was working on had a Euclid haul truck with a 16V-71. Without warning, I mean why would he, the mechanic working on the truck fired that thing off with the air starter and me walking by the right front tire, scare the absolute bejesus out of me!
Would have put the fear in me as well Willie . Another arrangement that always interested me was the " Twin 671's " that got shoe horned in to the Sherman tank as one of the many engine options of that time . https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=adEy5j4XiJk
Crap TD I had all but forgotten about them. We used to have a salvage/resale place like that around here. Tons of old school parts and knowledge. They sold out to Inland. Thankfully the sharp guys went with them. If I call with an issue and I can't get Lester I hang up. No offense to the other guys but sometimes you just need the guy that's been around the block a time or two. My old shop foreman from the crane days refuses to turn a wrench now that he's retired but he will stand there and supervise all day long. His favorite line is "that's not how I taught you". Funny thing with him is my ex wife's uncle has a diesel injection shop. His dad taught the diesel course at the votech back in the day. My old shop foreman and the other mechanic learned from Mr Biby. Small works sometimes. I've been very fortunate to work around some really sharp guys that acknowledged my desire to learn and challenged me. I continue to learn the same way here on HEF. Hopefully my boys understand that when I push them! Junkyard
Don't forget about the one off neat stuff. Like the Stewart & Stevenson verticals, horizontals, 12v53, 1-71's Aluminum blocked 53's 71's......
Hell yeah. I still keep kickin around a buzzin dozen in that W900 I have sitting around. Who knows what it is about them..... Junkyard
It's all about the music.
Oh my, chrome valve covers - are those the fuel filters up top in the canister's also chromed? that's quite the picture truckshop. There isn't even any oil stained around the exhaust manifold.
They never start it! Haha or put any oil in it. Yeah I think it's something about the sound of them. I like anything that sounds tough or obnoxious through a straight pipe. Junkyard
All about the music- I've spent 24 of the last 48 hours about 6 feet from a 6v92 at full song in my 70 ton crane, I'll hear the music all night.
Best lullaby there is....best sleep I've ever had was in my 359 with the ole B model JWAC idling though the 8" straights.
Dang that looks wicked!
I used to run TS-24s with 6-110s... Know what you mean.
Nice looking rig Truck Shop ! These engines just keep doing what they were built for . They aint goin to quiet down anytime soon Bro ! Living in " fly over " country I don't know how to do any other way given the engines history & reliability . Waiting for the thread " Detroit Diesels in 2050" LOL!
The turbo seems to be missing on the one previously posted
Twin turbo V-16 92!
You are right, I thought that was a 12V but now on closer looking and a little research I find it is a 16V92 owned by Werner. They also seem to have a Pete with a 3412. Can't find very much info on that truck.
Guess we need to file those under the heading "Too Much is Never Enough!"
I kinda doubt that meets emission specs for the year model of the truck.
Wow those are pretty pictures. Was listening to a 4-53 and a 6-71 all day today, though ear muffs though.
Right on, Birken! IIRC, that is Mr Werner's personal tractor, and the trailer is a full RV conversion. I saw it once, about ten years ago.
This one Birken?
That is a different one. There is yet another one hauling some extra wide lowboy that came up on Youtube after the one above. It said exhaust brake. I wonder if you could fit a true Jake brake to one of these. It would seem like two from a 3406 ought to work. I would think if you had enough money to stuff this tugboat motor in a truck you might spring for some custom engineering for Jakes. Also I wonder what kind of transmission you could use. It always seems like they have some kind of 2000 lb-ft stick which seems inadequate. I guess if you go any higher all you can get is an automatic, who knows. Not cool to be able to row the gears but I would rather be able to use all the power and torque.
Speaking of Detroits in 2017...looks like I have to teach myself to install and ream injector coppers in 53 heads. All the mechanics who could teach me are retired or died! I dug out all the tools to do it today..
Here's your re-power motor junkyard, $2,500 16v71 https://springfield.craigslist.org/hvo/6123048009.html You may have to extend the hood and frame rails.
My wife would call you a mechanical enabler!! Haha I saw that the other day. Believe me the wheels are turning..... Howcome the little motors bring so much? All the 353, 453 etc are several grand. I found a half dozen running 8v92T's in Tx for 3-5k. Then there's that one for 2,500. What gives fellers? Heck that big sucker is worth it for the 71 series parts you'd have! If anybody knows of some reasonably priced smaller motors suitable for running welders, compressors etc let me know, I'm in mad scientist mode on something......
That sounds like a pretty good deal on a running engine if you have a need for it .
...
Probably because there is no alternative, i.e. you can't go out and find some other 2800 RPM diesel V6, or whatever the special Detroit configuration was. Like if it was an 855 Cummins that had puked, and all you could find were too expensive, you could use some 893 Cat instead, or a Series 60.
That's true. Oh well, I'll stumble into something or rebuild the 453 I have lying out back....
Those sure look familiar! Spent some time playing with those toys! Another set of tools back at the shop I retired from that no one will have any idea of what they are or how to use them!
Go "obtain" that stuff for me!
Wish I could but then I'd be trying to load up the back of the car with a bunch of other things! Like the Sheldon 9 inch lathe!
Don't forget the fresh little detroit! Maybe I need to race Watkins this year and leave some space in the trailer!
Happen to have one laying around its going to auction soon unless your making a road trip...
I'll make one up there anytime. Know lots of folks all over Mn, lived there on and off a couple years. What all ya got besides the motor? PM me if you want. Thanks!
I paid $250 for a 4-53 that's been sitting out for who knows how long. Bought it thinking it would be good parts if I ever have problems with the 4-53 in the P&H. Now I'm thinking about fixing it and putting in it the suburban Dad wrecked. One day I want to put a 4bt cummins and 4l80 in the running Suburban. Would be then have a comfortable, reasonably fast, 4wd farm SUV that should get close to 30mpg. Dropping the 4-53 in the wrecked on would be good practice, never done an engine transplant before. I bought some toolboxes from a guy that said he knew of a 12v92 that was gonna go to scrap. He never got back to me about it though.
I'm always on the hunt for the old 2 stroke stuff. I don't know what it is about them but I like em! Now a 12v92 would be a helluva transplant!!!
About 20 years ago I saw a 651 cat scraper that had a 12V92 stuffed into it. From what I gathered it ran well, but ate transmissions like candy.
Man I bet it was stuck in there with Vaseline and a shoehorn!
I'm the same way Junkyard . Just something about those old 2 strokes ? http://www.heavytruckforums.com/sho...-motorcycle-racing&p=3779&viewfull=1#post3779
Actually it fit pretty well, but they had to run the hydraulic pumps off the front of the crank with a Funk box. So they had added about 24" to the nose frame.
We did a similar repower on a P&H crane upper. It was Detroit for Detroit, it had a 6v53 that was always giving us fits so we stuck a 6-71 in there from a truck. Most of it was simple just had to extend the enclosure and rearrange a few things. That crane place was a crash course in making **** work. Sometimes it came out pretty nice. Others....not so much. Come to think of it, I need to go by there and see if all the Detroit stuff is still around. They'd probably all but give it to me to get it out of the way.....
We have a 16V92 on a genset at the plant, big piece of leaking oozing mess! But it does start and feed backup power when needed.
Well unless you need all that horsepower that is probably the reason for the mess. Best thing for a Detroit is to work at 90% or better its max load!
I may have mentioned this before but 4 years ago at a local parade there was a National Guard 4 wheel troop utility vehicle ahead of me in the parade. It was certainly a Detroit from the sound. After the parade I asked the soldier what was in it. He showed me a 6-71 with twin turbo's. He said the 6-71 could produce up to 500 HP under battle conditions. When he left town he gave me a little acceleration show that was amazing to watch. This unit was not over 10 years old so the military Detroit's are certainly alive and "well".
http://www.kijiji.ca/v-view-details.html?adId=1269790668&requestSource=bv Came across this today and had to think of you Junkyard. Might be a bit far for you but still...
The more creative I get in my search for detroit stuff the more I find that is reasonable price wise. I found a Lincoln SAE 400 that's got a 2-71 in it . Imagine listening to that little booger buzz all day while you gouged out some bucket shanks or whatever. I may have to go get it! Not to give away my secret but there's a lot of tired iron with detroit power people are selling as scrap. Pull what you wanna keep and sell the rest to the scrap man and for some labor you might have a free motor or even make some beer $$.
I had a big Hobart with a 2-71, It didn't exactly "buzz". Howl was more like it. It would sure move the metal with 1/4x5/8" carbons.
It's up by DMiller I'm hoping I can talk him into taking a look at it for me
man i would buy that 12v for the 18 spd to rebuild..dang the shipping to south tx would be rough
i have a 2cyl and a bad engine sa 200 hummm.....
i have a detroit in this old 6k forklift and it dont use oil or leak..run delo 100 and they will be good to go.. thinking i will sell it but it works so easy....but its ovekill for our shop!
I have dreams of putting together an enpak-type unit with a 2-71 driving it. Will probably wind up using a yanmar 3 cyl, i don't have enough of those yet.
I've considered the same thing, may even adapt a hydraulic pump to this welder if I can get my hands on it. Lots of options with that stuff. I've got another SAE400 sitting around that's got a 4.236 Perkins in it. Been hoping to stumble into the parts I need for the motor. I have a fresh 4.236 sitting around but it's minus injector pump and lines which is what I need dangit
some kobota engines on ebay out of dallas and other places too that we could use off thermokings that came off bad units man they are big oil pan engine that they never changed oil forever..
This came into today, pretty cool lookin old compressor with a 3-53 in it.
Also made some progress on this 8V-71
Looking good Brodiesel ! Keep up the good work . Scraper with 8V 71 scattered on us at job site . Got to work out in the big shop with a dirt floor . I love it ! HeavyEquipmentForums
There always seems to be Skyview Truck and Tractor nearby when i need one, must be a big franchise. I shouldn't complain, i got to work in the shade and on a concrete floor most of the day.
What's with the big hole on the right side of flywheel housing, looks somewhat not stock?
Extra access hole to loosen gen armature bolts??? Follow spec's @ assembly or problems WILL occur.
I was wondering that myself. The engine is out of a crane, the hole looks like somebody torched it out for access to the flywheel area.
Hey Bro, you wouldn't happen to have a big lunch box and an RV? In a few months you could pilfer enough parts to build a motor to sell me..... What year is it? Well it's 49 50 51 52 53..... If scrap prices ever start to trend back up here I know of a bunch of Detroit powered iron that would be worth stripping of power and scrap the rest. Looks good but don't forget that missing bolt......
OH yeah one piece at a time! "The title weighed 60 lbs"
I think I would be tempted to make a cover for that hole out of some sheet metal and drill and tap a couple 1/4 holes to attach it. Would not be good if something dropped in there while running!
Your probably right, putting it on a dyno today so we will see. The customer brought the engine with that housing so maybe thats how they want it, who knows.
Any chance of making a short video of it running under load on the dyno, been too long since I heard that music!
BTW if anyone actually needs anything two stroke Detroit let me know, where I'm working we got a stockpile of parts, a lot of it's been lingering for decades.
You got it!!!
Wouldn't be a torched hole in cast iron.
Not being there to see it my guess would be someone just drilled a series of holes around the out side then broke it free and cleaned it up a bit with a grinder. A bunch of holes might give the appearance of the marks a cutting torch might leave after they were ground down most of the way. Actually after zooming in on it it almost looks like someone used a large hole saw to bore two over lapping holes, then had at the intersection with a grinder.
OH yeah cast iron, good point! Maybe it was already a small hole then it was enlarged with a grinder for some reason? Heres the dyno we havn't ran it yet only had time to bolt it on... on, had to work on some other projects....
Any 4-53 stuff in there? I have an almost good motor. Mainly need a blower or the parts to use with my housing. We can figure out what weight is the most cost effective to ship via LTL and load to that weight! Lol
Old Go-Power Dyno?
Yeah Gopower, theres a truck dyno down here too but no longer used.
Lots of 4-53 stuff, several used blowers and all types of odds n ends. If your serious call me tomorrow or text me some pics of engine or whatever you'd like.
Make that a cam and followers too lol. Heck anything 4-53. Some stuff wasn't stored properly dangit
PICTURES DUDE!!!
Of a rusty old disassembled 4-53? lol you're a perv man! Haha. It's a 5043-7001 S/N 4D-214543 Blower is on a pallet in one spot, head and block are out in the boneyard, pistons liners etc are laying in the floor of a storage container. Good system eh?
Great system sounds like the shop I'm working in it drives me up a wall I'm a neat freak but oh well. Thats a pretty basic model I think, industrial, right hand (CW) rotation. Well, get together a nice parts list and maybe even include some pervy pics and it's on like donkey kong!f
I'm on it like skin on day old pudding!
Pics in the dark but you get the idea.
You weren't jokin, pretty ragged. You seriously want to rebuild this? You could probably find a "good runner" for $500 or less.
lol I knew that was coming. I have yet to stumble on a rebuildable motor that cheap. I'd buy 2 or 3 for that in a 3 or 4-53 or 71 series. I haven't added up parts and machine work yet it may scare me! It was one of many hairbrained fleeting thoughts I get from time to time. If you have any builders or runner there they'll part with reasonable I may go that route too. I haven't found a good source for cheap runners around here. I guess maybe the oil patch uses them enough there's still demand.
I wonder what took the blower out like that. Seriously they are out there for cheap, a farmer gave me a running 3-53 last year. We sold it. Maybe easier in California since most people are getting rid of them
Water I'm sure. Well frozen water that is . Just like OIH had happen. Yeah I'd imagine that's why they're cheap or free there. Build me up a pile of them and I'll come vacation a few days and haul em home!
Boss was talking about getting one of those many years ago but he got transferred and then upper management decided to outsource all the major engine work so that never came to be.
I have a 8-71 setting in my slasher truck that burned if anyone is looking for one. It has under 1,000 miles on a rebuild. I need to get the truck to a scrap yard and out of my yard to keep piece in the family. Don't want to scrap the engine and 10speed Road Ranger. Make a offer. We can throw a battery and water in and start it up.
junkyard, latch onto a 4-53T old Chevy dullie.
That's badass. I kinda what to do something like that. Repower something cool with a green leaker. Hopefully I can make a deal with OIH and make a hotrod out of something small and light with that 8v71!
I love it. That 4-53 screams. Was that tach RPM's of 27 to 28 hundred I was seeing. Cool ride. Lets see the rest of the truck and an engine pic of it stuffed in there.
Same guy has 4-53T air start.
Yep, the same GMC truck... My buddy had a 4-53T powered service truck, LOTS of Screaming Racket, shifting, shifting, shifting...really haulin *** 58mph on flat road!
This one's still available- 1999 year of manufacture. 350hp 6v53. $1500 . How about a Travelall and a 6613? Think the wife would take it to get groceries? https://springfield.craigslist.org/hvo/6125961170.html
350 HP at 2800 RPM. I don't think they make good enough ear plugs. LoL Knew a guy who was one of the first to dig pipeline with a hydraulic excavator. Had 5 P &H H418's and a later version the H1250. All had 6V-53's around 180 HP but I'd hazard a guess that's why he wore a hearing aid. LoL
Been trying to upload some videos if the 8V71 dyno test but Youtube wont take the files for some reason. I will figure it out. But heres the painted engine, and a mechanic from Pape picked it up today, guess its going in a really unique railcrane from the 40's! He supposed to be following up with some photos of that a well.
I used to run a fire engine that had a 6V92 set at 400 HP. Almost twice the engine as that 53 and only 50 more HP. And we thought 400 was a hot setting for a 6V92. I wonder how many hours they expect out of the 6V53 at that setting.
I know in the excavators he said they needed a major overhaul after only 3000 hours. He went to Hitachi UH 122/121's with Isuzu engines after that and they'd go well over 10,000 hours and ran at about 1650 rpm.
Yair . . . I did a trip in a 37 foot Hatteras that had been repowered with a pair of black J and T 6v53s that dinoed at 400 hp in Cairns . . . I think at 2800. You could her coming . . . and going. Cheers.
400 horsepower in a boat doesn't equate to 400 horsepower in a truck or piece of heavy equipment. The same is true of 400 in a truck isn't the same thing as 400 in a genset. You have to consider the duty cycle rating for each application.
Yep... Cat rated the 3208T at 430 HP in marine apps. Really... ?
53series 2800rpm maximum, 71-92series 2300rpm maximum, 149series 1900rpm maximum... Continuous duty, 53marine 2400rpm max
So the 8V71 was installed in a 40's era railcrane, very cool I thought. I also was sent a video of the "original" 8V71 running away, I guess it got up to 7,000 rpms and so hot the oil chemically reversed itself, turned to melted wax basically...I have photos of that in a previous thread, the one where the oil looks like a dooky taken out of a main oil galley. HeavyEquipmentForums
Cool pictures of the rail crane Bro. Our local paper mill used to use some of that era unloading pulpwood with clamshells when I was a lot younger. I thought they were cool then to. Now they use all hydraulic units on rubber.
Brain dead. Comment not valid. Missed part of post.
It's a video, most videos are self explanatory. Truck Shop
I'm the same way old - iron . Reckon that's why we are still runnin Detroit's
Nice, a "green leaker" in John Deere green!
Don't all John Deeres leak anyway!! Have worked on 6L71's that were so loose and worn slick you filled the oil and checked the fuel, one leaked so bad we had to wash the duals before could drive into shop as were oil painted. Worst I ever dealt with was a 1966 Cracker Box GMC rubber band tag with wedge brakes a 6L against a 13 speed. Buddy had ACCESS to it on grandfathers farm and we super smart azzes used it to go to Arkansas to buy a load of watermelons to make a chunk of change. Would only run 62 with a empty 32' open top trailer behind, smoked like a mosquito patrol, thought I was seeing things until we stopped as the oil was literally rolling off the old round nose trailer. Three cases of oil 91 gallons of fuel round trip 372 miles. Best speed on return home 54 downhill, needless to say stayed on back highways, truck did not have correct license, was in no way able to pass ANY kind of inspection and trailer had the plate off a 10' utility on it. Just so lucky we did not die and NEVER saw a cop!!
One of the biggest problems with oil consumption in Detroits is using the wrong oil. SAE Viscosity Grade 40 API Classification: CD-II, (Note: CD-II is an obsolete designation replaced by the current API Rating CF-2) Military Spec: MIL-L-2104D Sulfated Ash: Less than 1.0% The other thing that will make them messy is not working them hard enough. Cylinders get too cool and fuel condenses on the cylinder walls and get pushed out the exhaust and makes a big mess.
This one leaked much of it!! All the covers including air box covers leaked some, do not think there was a seal that was holding anything!! When we finished with it that day, it got parked in the same spot it sat for years prior where I think they finally hauled it off in the late 90's.
The things that always get me about reports of Detroits being leakers could be said about any old and abused piece of equipment. Actually I believe one of the main reasons Detroits have this reputation is their ability to actually run while in much worse conditions than many other engines. I can not count the number of those old Detroits I pulled apart that were being run the day they came in the shop for a rebuild and when torn down it was suprising they had come in on their own power! May have needed a sniff of go juice but still ran. One I recall had been run all one season at a gravel bed in a Euclid truck, needed go juice even when morning temps were in the low 80's! Hardly anything left to the Compression rigs and grooves for many rings double normal width! And how many other engines have you seen that will start and run with a broken crank? Had two different 8V-71's with that "problem". One in a drill rig and we ran it long enough to get drill mast down and then once truck was back to the shop started it again to raise drill mast to allow us to pull the engine. Sure block was cracked at atleast one main bearing on each but engine ran, just a little bit of a vibration!
Already posted this under Memories for old F#%kers I mean Truckers Truck Shop
Opened that up wearing headphones with the volume a little too loud. Big mistake.....
alskdjfhg , not to change the subject but can't help but ask how are you fairing with the hurricane & rain Bro ?
So far so good, yesterday was getting a little worrisome though. The gully 30' from the back door, that normally flows about 4" deep was rip roaring along loud enough to be hear flowing from inside the house, must have been atleast 16' deep. About 2' more and it would have over-topped the bridge and started to come in the back yard. The news is saying that we've gotten over 24" in the last 36 hours,with possibly another 24" to come. The city has had to open some of the reservoirs to preventing the water form over-topping and compromising dams and levees, but at the cost of flooding some neighborhoods. Thankfully not much wind so no major power outages or downed trees. If I had one of the heavier farm trucks in town with me, I'd be out helping folks that got flooded. But right now all I've got is the little 3/4 ton dodge and I don't trust it as a recovery vehicle. I've seen it get stuck in dewy grass.... This was the view yesterday of the front and back yard. The city decided we needed curbs and gutters last year, but screwed up the drainage so now they flood. School's been cancelled until Tuesday next week. I'm hoping the rain stops here soon so I can get down to the farm and see what happened down there. To be honest, the worst thing has been that the internet keeps cutting out every few minutes. Other than that, been killing time doing homework, reading here and looking at machinery I cant afford. Very lucky compared to a lot of folks. Fingers crossed it stays boring.....
Be safe man.
I heard one top notch guy claim he could set one up to not leak at all by paying correct care to gaskets and seals. I have seen them not leaking any worse than anything else. Except those air box drains. Even though the oil is not getting on the motor it still winds up on the ground where the truck is parked. So that still counts as a "leak" I guess. I saw the usual ignorant Youtube comments, to me it looks like he is keeping it against the governor not because "Detroits run better that way" (I don't subscribe to that theory exactly) but because he wanted to be real sure he was in a low enough gear he could make it to the top without having to downshift which would be impossible. Had that happen to us once on a 31% grade, engine flamed out. Could not get it moving again even in granny low, had to back to the bottom and start over. Good thing the boss was driving, I was just guffawing from the passenger seat.
Hold fast alsk . Was sure thinking about you folks when I saw the rain fall reports . That's a crazy amount of rain in a short timeframe .
Thanks guys, so far so good.
Yes... Absolutely you can assemble a 2 stroke Detroit to not leak. I have done a bunch. Air box drains can be routed to a "catch can", had one on my old GMC 9500 with the 8V71. And to the stupid people on you tube... they should try to get that load up that hill. I bet none of them have driven a truck larger than a 3/4 ton Dodge.
I have thought about a YouTube channel many times. I don't simply because of the keyboard commandos! Well that and I prefer to keep a low profile
Yep , got one of them " catch can's " on the number 3 Grove . http://www.heavytruckforums.com/showthread.php?363-Ccc&p=2831&viewfull=1#post2831
The wrong oil and idling is what causes a Salt Water Chevy to slobber. You do your equipment check, make your log book, fire it up build air and get rolling. Catch each down shift at 1750 to 1800 bring it back in at 2100 to 2200 and keep it there. Red October, one ping one ping only. Truck Shop
One thing about the old 2 strokers was the cast iron pistons, you could throw a full load on them right after startup with no worries about sticking a piston.
That isn't the first time they've come out of a quarry hole with something heavy, they at least had the loader behind him in case the driveline or axle went. Most of those quarry crushers set around and don't have the best trailer brakes- most of the time they're backed all the way off. If you lose a driveline, you're headed all the way back down.
Dude on the loader tooted his horn to let the driver know he was turning him loose...I doubt that driver even heard that horn. For sure that truck had a load on it, you can see the tandem axle tires squatting under the load.
None of my 3 and 4 cylinder Detroit's leak. I pressure wash them once a year to keep the twigs and crap cleaned up. Oil is not a issue at all. I think gaskets and sealers are a lot better that when the engines first came out. P.S. Harleys don't leak anymore either.
I never minded overhauling the two stroke engines, just were a little too fussy as to fitting sleeves. I wore two Sunnen hones out fitting liners in the 71's. Many except us old farts would forget to replace the 'pencils' at the water pump and generally another somewhere hidden in plain sight point where the blocks would get thinned out from erosion and corrosion, conversion to water filters helped much of that. The 92's I worked on were usually the complaints, not enough power meaning they did not turn tight enough even as they would pull hard, not enough noise as the turbos on those and the old 350 71's would quiet them down. A lot of people failed to check wrist pin seals adequately where a few I saw ran flat away eating engine oil, I argued often when what thought they were techs failed to torque the head studs prior to setting the heads. The old Maxidyne and Thermodyne Bulldogs were some tight long lived monsters as well, saw many make 500,000+ on original parts, just knocked to beat hell from piston slap. Oh and when Harley went to belt drives or the earlier sealed o-ring link chains they no longer needed the 'programmed' leak to lube those chains. Better gaskets, seals and sealants did help in those older engines too. Loved Panheads, shovels and knuckles not so much.
For sure, as well as filters, oils and manufacturing methods. Lots of folks look down at old equipment and old engines, but I've wondering for a long time what would happen if you took an older design, a two stroke Detroit for example, but used modern materials, manufacturing methods, seals, filters and oils. The design of a 2 stoke Detroit came out in the 30's right? A lot has changed since then. It used to be holding .0001 tolerances was reserved for guys in clean lab coats with P&W jig bores, but today "tenths" (.0001's of an inch) can be held in a production environment no problem. A perfect piece of equipment in my mind would be to take the simplicity of old iron, but take advantage of the improvements that have been made, minus as much electronic complexity as possible. Improved manufacturing methods and electronic controls are probably the two biggest reasons there is such a difference between old and new. Besides the old being worn out and beat up.
Detroit 71 liners were fitted to 0.0002" and OEM coded by tenths by location of the part number stamp (stenciled on) on the liner. Correct measuring procedure was/is using calibrated dial bore gauge! Typical to find enlarged cylinder bores located toward the top block deck area caused by 'mechanics' that non-fixed hones during overhauls. Always measured new liners for size, out roundness and sent the rejected liners by to parts purchase source. Wrestling VanNorman 777 boring bar on V-engines wasn't fun!
Still remember going thru literally stacks of liners at what was Western Diesel the Detroit dealer in St. Louis to find something usable. Many out of round, High stamped std. low stamped std. all the way thru to .030 over size and all sorts of variables between PITA we could not charge time to. Most of the time their old stock was great, the newer stuff was coming from ?? and was crap. As noted we used a set of Sunnen brand square hones to one clean up rough liner bores then to fit up-sized sleeves. Saw many come in with ruined blocks as the guys that 'recently overhauled' just dropped in what would drop in and ripped them apart at the intake ports. 92's were an odd breed with the Liner O-rings in the block not on the sleeves unlike Cummins and others. Bulldog reminded me of the old Ferguson and Ford tractors, drag the shined up sleeves out, lightly scotchbrite the bores then set the new Dry sleeves in the Dry Ice freezer, run like hell with a few to the block and get them set before they swelled back to size and tighten a retainer to hold them down. Do not know what is like these days as have not been in one for 25 years.
I used to post videos on YouTube but I eventually deleted them all because I got tired of all the dumb comments made by idiots living in their momma's basement.
That 777 is a good machine, the old Storm was good also. Truck Shop
Those early Double 00 92's were nothing more that a 71 with 92 liners. The biggest problem was breaking main caps. When the silver came out I remember removing several 00 engines and installing silvers. The silver IMO was a good engine. When the Double 00 broke main caps you knew it because of the odd vibration and instant low oil pressure. Truck Shop
We use to call them green block 92s and plenty of them got pulled early. As I recall Detroit had a deal on swapping them out for Silver blocks. The Silvers were a big improvement in engine life.
Let's not forget that sickening "Klunk" when a new liner hits the lower bore. For some reason the 12V71T's I've worked with (Wabco scrapers with N80-85 injectors) liked to shift the bores in 1 and 2 left side. Had a bunch bored .010 over to cure that.
I'd have high blood pressure and who knows what after reading what the trolls would have to say. Say something constructive, even if criticism. But don't stir **** for the sake of stirring it!! That pretty high on my list of pet peeves!
If nothing else they like to scold the uploader for not warming up the engine for 45 minutes to an hour before running it at RPM above idle. Sorry but I got places to be. Once the engine has the shakes and smoke out I am on down the road. Also you can look at artistry of someone getting a dozer or track hoe out of the mud. The video is 10 minutes long with no cuts. Still the peanut gallery says it took too long.
I put a cold start video of my truck up and got flamed for cranking the starter for 25 seconds. Do we want this thing started or are we gonna dink around all day letting it roll over twice and then give it a 15 second cool down? SMH.
You remember the old John Deere 40 and 50 series tractors? When they fired, they went full fuel before they came back to idle. I had a car "mechanic" flip out on me once when I started my old 4430 to plow his snow. He called me everything but a white man over that. Oh... his driveway didn't get plowed that day. Tractor "didn't feel well".
Yeah the cold start videos are funny. My own procedure is, if I know it is going to start then I hold the starter on steady until it is good and running. Might not get another chance if the battery is low. Like you said there are too many who think alternating the starter off and on is a good thing. All the heat you just built up in the chambers is sinking away into the cold water jacket while you wait for nothing. Or they stop at the first sign of a cough from the engine. I set my auto start modules to continue to crank an 1800 RPM generator engine until it reaches 1200 RPM. The starter motor has an overrunning clutch for that reason and I don't want to get called out in a snow storm because it coughed and died and locked itself out for me to come and just throw a switch.
I'm not super keen on leaving things idling for a long time. Even at -40C I'll let them idle for maybe 5 minutes and then I'll bring up the RPM. I'm honestly more concerned about the hydraulics than I am about the engine. I like to at least get the hydraulic oil up above 0C before I really start to work the machine. Pretty hard on the hoses and seals trying to force that thick and cold oil through the system. Even if it is a winter grade oil.
U-tube critics OT example...Jason and crew cold starts At that ambient temp...no run or blow use...no start Detroit 2-strokes in that low ambient temp...use 'run or blow' before ever attempting crank the engine over. How many of you guys have ever used either jell capsules?
Gel Caps were almost useless, three to five to get some engines lit off, then there is always the one guy who stops cranking with ether in the intake then tries again to fuel knock ether lock. Old boy on that TRex needed to hit it before he cranked it to death, not too bright, guess that why he is working a scrap yard.
I avoid ether if at all possible. I might give it a quick shot or 2 once its making smoke but that's about it. I've been told many times that ether is like meth for engines. Once they're hooked they need it all the time.
Probably from damaged pistons, etc. Under careful usage it should not bother anything. I suspect the problems come from people using it on fragile small high speed high compression non turbo engines. The key is to use the right amount to help ignite the diesel that is being injected, not so much that the engine is running on ether by itself. If the injectors aren't injecting for whatever reason, no amount of ether is going to get it to run but some people still seem to try....
Abusers, people trying to re-start engines that run out fuel; they do not know how to use primer pump or they're to lazy! 2-stroke Detroits: long path, air cleaner, intake piping, blower (turbo) air box. I found lots of broken rings on engines that have never been ethered! My buddies always blame out of spec connecting rods (slight bend or twist) on ether usage, ditto most of those engines have never been ethered. I use lots of ether; cleaning gasket surfaces and threaded holes if I am out of Loctite primer!
Done the same myself. Two things to be aware of: first using it in a confined area, like cleaning out a differential case under a machine can give you a bad buzz and head ache(been there done that), next that stuff is very flammable, yea you knew that but we had a guy at one of our plants almost burn down a shop when after cleaning some with the ether he decided to snip off a couple rusted bolts! And on a slightly different point being safe while using "non-flammable" brake clean can also have serious hazards. Sure it won't burn but if heated or sprayed on hot surface it can kill you. This should be required reading for anyone using this product: https://envirofluid.com/info-library/toxins/tetrachloroethylene-brake-cleaner
They would hate me when I start the 4-53 in my power shift Ranger skidder. Cold start procedure, per the manual is for down to +15 F. Below that they recommend a pre-heating system. Here's the short version of what it says. Insure the parking brake is set and the blade is placed on the ground. After running the engine at 1000 no load RPM for 2 to 3 minutes, engage the transmission in high gear and set the engine to half throttle to but resistance on the torque convertor until the has reached operating temperature. Seems they are more concerned about the tranny oil flow than the engine.
Using torque-engine to build heat applies to both engine and trans; I do that in Cali all the time instead of wasting time waiting for the machine or truck (any engine with retarder) to warm up. Service trucks have block pre-heaters; per SOS oil analysis cold starts increase 'iron' wear particle count. Did not make any difference which weight oil was used 30, 40 or 15-40 or brand; higher wear rates at cold starts.
There's a few of us out here still playing with them. Here's a 12v71tt in a pulling tractor my buddy built I just finished tuning for him. Everything I own is 2 stroke powered, including my pickup. Signed up here because I bought an old dozer and stumbled onto yalls finest thread straight off!!! P.S. the symphony below is at 3500rpm
12Vs spinning over 3,000 break lots of parts...per modeling moments of inertia 3,280 is tops.
that's where i was told to put it ...... we did end up backing it down a little, he got cold feet. I wouldn't have any problem spinning anything I built that fast.
BroDiesel it won't let me pm you but I'm looking for some specific parts. Can you pm me? maybe it'll let me reply?
I think some of the pulling tractors are spinning 5000 RPM+ and running up to 4 turbo's!
Which association 'rules' are running under? Most 'truck pullers' have RPM limits.
I beg to differ. Many diesels will run on shots of ether till the fuel gets there.
I suppose, and if it doesn't start on little shots then the answer is to give it bigger and bigger shots right? I suppose this is a problem that sort of reinforces itself with bad mechanics. They have gotten a few engines to self prime by running them on ether so they think it is an acceptable practice. As for me, I will only use ether if I see white fuel smoke coming out the exhaust first and figure all it needs is a little warmth to fire it up. No fuel being injected = fix the problem not spray ether at it. Using hand pump or drill pump or air if necessary. I have tried the gasoline rag/propane/WD40 and it sometimes result in sputtering and white smoke turning black but not a reliable start. I am not scared of a little ether applied properly.
I've seen more than a few Detriot injectors seize needle valves from "ether priming" they need that fuel for lube and cooling. A few years back I ran into a 3406E cat that lost an ECM feed and the driver used a ton of ether trying to start it. Week later it was back with 2 broken injector tips. Man that was a smoker!
Yes, Detroit my standard procedure was to loosen the nut at the fuel pump inlet and have somebody pressure the tank with air, then put the (hopefully flare) fitting back on the pump while still spewing fuel. Then crank it up, it usually starts without any help right away that way.
I found that hard to do, I don't have a service truck with a compressor and even having a shop is a relatively new thing. For along time having air was just a goal, not reality. I always used inline electric fuel pumps instead. All y'all guys know those, but when I found out about them it was a huge deal......
A 3 gallon weed sprayer modified to plumb into the secondary filter works well and it's cheap. put a shutoff valve on the hose, pump it up hard, then open the valve for 20 seconds, and they start right up. Let it run a minute or 2, shut it down, disconnect and it should be good to go. The Wabco 333FT's and 353FT's I used to work on all had 1/4 turn valves installed with dirt plugs on the rear engines so it only took me about 10 minutes to prime one. And NEVER change a Detroit fuel filter on a cold engine. It works much better when they will fire immediately.
I never could get the air pressure in the tank thing to work on a Detroit. Took me a while to figure out that the air pressure was also pushing on the return line. Used to disconnect the return line on the back of the head and cap the tank side. Then put air to the tank. I think I like the weed sprayer idea a lot better.
Best luck I ever had was using a old 12v electric fuel pump, used to keep one in my tote box just for out of fuel runs. Last one I had lasted 9 years then sat too long and went solid(corrosion). Pretty cheap device I think gave $18 for and had 1/4" pipe threads in/out then adapted fittings as needed. Be like what one would put on a remote mount generator or welder to run off truck tank. Cheapest cost tool I ever had that actually worked well.
Well it always worked for me. You have to disconnect the line (I choose the one that goes into the feed pump) and hold it in your hand until good solid fuel comes out. Preferably hook it up when still spewing. It makes a huge mess. Then crank the engine immediately, and the transfer pump should be pumping. If not, then start back at square one.
My biggest enemy was the local Fire Dept. 6L71, 8v71 equipped with 45 gal. rear of chassis 30' away from engine tanks low on frame. That is when that little electric pump was handiest as these guys were too busy working fires to watch fuel gauges and they generally needed it back Yesterday!
I got a Detroit question from a fellow on another forum that someone may be able to answer. I know Ken mentioned he rebuilt some of these. On the V16-71 or any other front to back Detroit that use two blocks, is the crankshaft or other components beefed up on the back engine to handle the extra power? Now he has me curious also.
If by beefed up on the back engine I would say no, as best I recall the 16V-71's used the same main and rod bearings as say the 6V-71. Well actually took a look in an old parts book from 1972 and yes main and rod bearings are all the same for all V-71's. Only thing I see different is the 16V-71 uses a different oil seal at the rear seal, not sure what the difference is there.
Thanks Ken, That's interesting. I guess it shows how tough they were built to start with. Almost seems with double the horsepower the flywheel end of the crank would twist right off.
If I remember correctly, the 12v92 we pulled out of a boat 6-7 years ago had a single crank. The blocks were "back to back" 6v92 but it wasn't exactly two separate engines "bolted" together. It had a one piece crank.
I'd watch your videos. The comment section of Youtube is known to the state of California to cause cancer.
Sometimes the comments are better than the videos. Occasionally you learn more there than the actual video! If nothing else they're great examples of "what not to do!"
You could post your videos here on HEF. Than you would only be judged by like minded people. Bahahahaha.
That's slightly disturbing in and of itself! Maybe if I could figure out how to post a video on here lol
Only worked on on "92" series and that was a V-8. Well actually two as we found a crack in the upper deck of the first engine and boss made some calls to dealer and they sold us a complete new Silver 92 to replace it for a very reasonable price. Did not know the 12V-92's used a two piece block. The 12V-71's which we had several of used a one piece block. The 16V-71's did have the two piece block with a two piece crank. Not positive but some versions of the 16V-71's may have used a one piece crank. I would think a better description would be saying the block were nose to nose as the gear trains on the V71's went up the back. So the 16V-71's had gear trains running up both ends of the engine and four separate camshafts! Now it may be that if the 92's were different and they used just one pair of cams for all 12 cylinders.
So would I. Not many good wrench turning channels on YT. Junkyard, you can upload the video to youtube, and then change the pravacy setting from "public", like it normally is", to "private". The only way to access the video would be to have the link for it, which you could post here. Far from perfect though
Well....let me see what I can do. I may even ask for requests . I was thinking about that today driving along. So much of what we do on a daily basis seems mundane. But to somebody else it's all but mind blowing. Shimming the stinger on my trailer just about sent one of our ground hands into a conniption fit! How do you know how thick, what do you do when it's empty.....on and on. Heck I just do it, I don't even have to think about it. Then there's stuff I've never done that would have the same affect on me. Anything machine tool related would be new. Some of our drill repairs are cool, I may have to ask about filming that stuff though. Foreman can be a d$&k sometimes. Never know what might come into my shop on the side though. I've got some stuff I've been meaning to get into. Might be a good start and a way to work on my cinematic skills!
And to stay on the Detroit topic I found this
You can always upload unlisted videos on Youtube and link them in your work thread. You're right there are some really sharp guys that comment on videos, but 90% of videos reading comments is about as productive as digging for water next to the outhouse. Stephen Cox has some pretty good content as a field mechanic. I watched one of his videos and saw Archer paused on the tv in the background and subscribed b/c i figured he had to be a good dude.
Let's try this......should be a video I took of our old LDH truck rig. If it's works I'll link them in my thread from now on....
Long handles and foot-brakes, now that's cool.
It's old school for sure. It'll work your *** off in short order. LDH was a Hughes company. Anytime it goes out I babysit, never know when it's gonna show it's *** haha. It did us proud for a couple days and finished the job.
When Men were Men and well, sheep were scared!!
If you have some time to kill go to YouTube and do a search for "tubalcain". this guy is a retired shop teacher who does lots of videos he can get long winded at times but has some good stuff on machine shop work. It is mostly on small scale things but much of it could be applied to larger projects.