Beautiful day for digging. So I thought I would dig up some pine tree stumps. I couldn’t be happier with how the hydraulics work! Thanks to HEF! I carried the stumps to the back 40 and on the way back is a small grade about 175 yards long. Problem is the engine acted like it was loosing power. I could give it more throttle but I didn’t want to push the issue. Once I got back if I let it idle it would die. It would fire right back up and idle somewhat ok but not like it would before the round trip. The machine had no problem digging again. But it almost acts like the engine is over heating. Fluids and filters are good and has a new water pump. The temp gauge does work but I’m not sure how accurate it is. Engine is a 353 Detroit. As discussed before this backhoe (1983 Dynahoe) sat for many years. I thought about running some injector cleaner threw it. Digging I ran the engine about 1500 rpm and driving back was full rpm at 2500. Any ideas? Thanks, Blue
I am making the assumption that you are not running at high governed RPM when digging and or when pulling the grade. The Detroits do not have any lugging power, They are designed to be run screaming wide open. If it bogs with the throttle wide open then you probably need fuel filters. Fill both new ones with fuel before installing them and it should start right back up. EDIT: reread your post. High end governed RPM should be 2700 to 2750 on the 353s. If it bogs like it is running out of fuel it is probably the filters. If it is low on power open it up wide open and if the hill is steep enough you may have to select a lower gear. You could use a heat gun if you suspect overheating but it sounds like fuel to me. Is there still ancient fuel in it or has the tank been flushed and new fuel filled.
No smoke-no fuel. I didn't go back through the history, but I'd guess it's bigger junk than injector cleaner will cure. Like a plugged screen, fitting, filter etc.
Ok, I thought 2500 was max. It will go to 2700+ tho. Engine doesn't seem to be bogging down, no excessive black smoke (to the best of my knowledge). It was in 1st gear already. Fuel is 100% new. Should there be a lot of black smoke?
I would suspect filters as well. One other possibility would be the rack isn't giving it full fuel when needed. There are shims in the governor as well that set the rpm. There could possibly be dirt or something restricting the governor and rack action. What does that backhoe weigh , the 3-53 is good for 75 hp , it may be a bit underpowered for that tractor.
If you're loading the engine it should smoke more than usual. Probably much more black smoke than usual. It is an overloaded tractor that will grunt going up hill, but it should never die at idle, or idle differently after a hard pull. If you're concerned it's overheating, use an infra red thermometer to check the water pump temp etc, to verify the temperature gauge is working correctly.
Book says just under 24000 But it's geared really low. I'm told these machines are slow moving... And from what I see their right. I guess the lack of fuel would be most likely. What else is there... If it's not getting enough fuel will a diesel engine run like a lean gas engine? Obviously I don't want to melt some pistons. It seems to have power, it's just towards the end of the haul the engine has a different sound. Is it possible the innards are overheating and the block isn't transferring the heat to the coolant quick enough to register at the gauge?
I would clean the fuel system, test the injector pump and the like. It sounds like a fuel issue to me. Unlike most engines those detroits use a cam operated injector, gear driven IIRC. I think the injectors are UNDER the valve cover... Howard
I would put in new filters and run it for a while if the temp in not overheating. They normally come out if it with some stedy work. Open it all the way up when you get in a pull. They need to scream and are made to run against the governor.
On a Detroit the "Fuel Pump" is just a simple gear pump to supply fuel to the injectors. All timing and injection pressure is a function of the injectors. Governor is connected to the injectors by linkage.
No, basically if the coolant is under 200, then the engine is not overheating. Drain a cup of coolant from either the bottom of the block or radiator after it's been running but not HOT, if it's a see through green, and there's nothing major on the bottom then the cooling system is fine for our purposes. The changing sound, along with the other symptoms sound like some sort of fuel starvation. That doesn't make it run any leaner, a diesel almost always runs lean because the fuel is the only thing controlled. That blower is always blowing the same amount of air whether the engine is idling or full power. You could put a fuel pressure/vacuum gauge in the system if you wanted to be sure what was happening.
I agree it seems like a fuel issue. As stated the fuel system is quite simple, a gear pump supplies fuel pressure into the cylinder head and then via fuel lines to injectors. If the fuel is good, filters are changed so I'd check the actual fuel pressure. Tee into the hose that supplies fuel to the head. Anyone out there know the book spec for fuel pressure? I think it's around 50 - 60 PSI. One thing we always did with curly fuel issues like this was to do a test using a seperate fuel supply and hoses. We'd run hoses from a jerry can, one to the fuel pump (supply) the other a clear rubber hose from the restrictor fitting on the head. This lets you see if there's any bubbles in the fuel going back to the tank.
Yair . . . Delmer Is that what you meant or did you mean the same amount of air per revolution Cheers.
Scrub, Right on, the faster she goes, the faster she blows... gotta love it. Now if we add a turbo and a bypass valve... a silver 53!
I'll second the temp fuel can, I have seen fuel supply issues being a clogged elbow at the tank many times. Had a similar problem on a grove crane with a 6v-53, that after some head scratching found a chunk of wood and some straw in the suction tube. After some digging and banging, out came the obstruction and that old screamin Lena was back making money.
Don't confuse us with facts. And a turbo on a Detroit just isn't right. "burning too lean" just doesn't apply to a diesel. Now if the timing is messed up, or the engine is detonating because it's overheated that could do some damage. Most likely here the cylinders aren't firing evenly because the fuel supply is inconsistent?
Make that a third for the temp supply of go juice! Not the same engine but where I worked we had a 710 JD that would work fine till you tried traveling up the grade out of the pit in a higher gear. Took fuel cap off to check fuel level and noticed a vacuum. A quick investigation found the fuel cap had one of those vents that are like a bunch of little brass beads stuck together. Just had a good coat of mud plugging it. Quick flushing out with brake clean and a blast of air and the old tractor would pull the same hill in top gear. One thing that you could also do if you have an infer-red heat gun would be to point it at the exhaust manifold ports near the head just to see if there is a major difference in the temps indicating a possible weak cylinder.
We used to pull the exhaust manifold off the motor and watch it run to see which cylinder was bad...and the old DD 53, 61, 73, 92 and the like, could come with the supercharger or normally aspirated. The supercharger gave more power, obviously, with without it, maintenance costs were lower. I work on those in the early 80's and not much since. Howard
A good test of the fuel pump back seal is to put an electric pump in line before the engine driven fuel pump. The pump is a simple little gear pump that develops 60 PSI normally. I have had the seal on the pumps driven shaft side fail and suck air when the engine is running wide open and work fine at lesser RPM. You can often see a fuel leak at the back of the pump with an electric pump providing pressure with the engine not turning. I did not see anything in your post about missing. Sounds like low fuel or just low on power. As it sounds like it is god enough to use, I would still run it a number of hours working it hard as you can before I got to carried away dumping a bunch of money into it. I have had more than one run less than perfect after setting for years and then cleared up after using it for a bit. There is a possibility that the rack needs to be run if it has a lot of hours on it but it could also be that the rings are a bit sticky and a few warm up/ cool down cycles will cure it.
Yair . . . hetkind. Respectfully I must disagree . . . the Detroit two strokes would not run with out the blower, or not in any useful way. They required the blower for scavenging and it was an integral part of the combustion system. Turbos were an add on that improved the performance curve and assisted the engine to hang on instead of dropping it's guts from lack of boost as it lost the revs. Cheers.
I seem to remember some intercity buses with the 671 that ran across the back of the bus, lengthwise with a diagonal driveshaft to the rear axle diff that were normally aspirated... But that was a long time ago, and I could always be wrong... Howard
Never happened. All of the 2 cycles had superchargers couldn't run without them.
Scrub is on track with this. I use to pull old tractors that we GM Diesel powered. The blower only charges the air box and when the piston travels below the holes in the liner in replenishes the air supply for combustion. There is maybe a pound or less or pressure on the air box at full speed. Now to actually make it a supercharger , you can over drive the blower by changing the gears and actually make a little boost. Those engines were very durable , most people hated them , but they can take a lot of abuse.
Like others have said all 2 stroke Detroits have/need blowers (sometimes called superchargers) to run. Maybe the buses you are thinking about had the blower mounted to the side you could not see? Also some of the 110 series Detroits had centrifugal blowers, looked like the compressor wheel out of a turbo but it was gear driven, not run of exhaust!
He said it would die at idle and sound different after climbing the hill. I'll second the "run it hard" suggestion, as well as all the other ideas, just depends on how you want to go about it.
All of the Detroits had blowers on them. As stated they will not run without them. They are not superchargers but supply more air to scavange the cylinders of exhaust gases and introduce more air for the next fire, but not under pressure. They are not over pressurized as with a supercharger. They are considered a naturally asperated engine unless they have a turbo on them. Confusing, Yes, It has been a discussion for years. Hundreds of pages written about it in the pullers discussions and shows up in the pullers rules and regulations regarding 2 stroke Detroit requarding naturaly asperated vesus blown or turbo charged if you want to research it further.
I stand corrected...the 8V-71 had a roots type blower in the cylinder V, but were considered "normally aspirated" since they didn't provide enough boost to be called a supercharger, but the same blower on a V8 gasoline motor in a hot rod would cause it to become a "supercharger". I also ran across the same roots type blowers used in a Air Force application to test equipment to simulate high altitude, but operating as a vacuum pump, and used to call on the shop that would rebuild those. Regardless, I thought the Detroit Diesel line of two stroke motors were strange beasts with intake ports on the bottom of the cylinder liners and cams with three lobes per two valve cylinder head, with one lobe for the injectors. I wasn't part of the Detroit rebuild operations, I was working in the International 304/345 school busses... Howard
To me they are "normal" all those other engines are the strange ones! And if you do a little reading you might come across the series 51 Detroits, they have NO VALVES! Not to be confused with the series 53 engines.
I fully agree. When you put a Detroit blower on a gas engine and over drive it usually with a geared up cog belt drive they supercharged that engine. Many dragsters are still running the same general concept today.
Yeah old -iron -habit , Would be hard to imagine what the "Hot rod / drag racing " scene would have looked like without a Detroit Diesel blower atop a V 8 gas engine cramming more air & fuel in than mother nature intended producing massive rubber loss to the rear tires . Here ya go . http://www.jegs.com/p/Weiand/Weiand-6-71-Nostalgic-Street-Supercharger-Kits/749014/10002/-1
I posted before about “space junk” in the fuel tank clogging the fuel line and the mickey mouse throttle set up limiting RPM and the torque converter possibly being bad. All had fuel suspicions but NONE of them are an issue now. My biggest concern is running the engine lean and melting the pistons. But as mentioned, that’s not the case with two strokes. “Run it hard” sounds good to me. After I get an infra red thermometer and check the manifold and everywhere else for hot spots. This weekend I’ll give my backhoe some (more) attention. I will inspect and clean the fuel system and change the filters while I’m in there. Is there anything after the two filters that could be clogged? Putting a fuel pressure gauge in line will be on my things to do list. I like the 12v fuel pump and clear hose trick. That will be on the list too. The coolant is a little cloudy, don’t know about any sediment yet. THANKS: old-iron-habit Delmer Dickjr. hetkind kshansen Zed Scrub Puller lantraxco repowerguy tpitt td25c for your suggestions so far!
I would put a fuel pressure gauge in where the 1/4 npt plug is in the top of the fuel filter housing, right above the gear pump on the left side. You should have 55 psi after changing the fuel filters. If not then chase back to the tank and find the problem. I had one the other day, that had a rag and plastic cap, in the elbow coming out of the tank.
As mentioned you don't need to worry about lean fuel mix melting a piston on a Detroit . That's chainsaw & ultra light two cycle aircraft stuff . I generally just feel around on the engine with my hand for hot & cold spots . For people that don't like getting burnt an old windex spray bottle filled with water misted on the manifold will show the cold port pretty fast .
While you got your infared thermometer out check the water flow to and from the radiator also. Will be a good check to see how your gauge reads. I do not suspect anything in the cooling system as it should have boiled some fluid out the pressure cap by the time it smelled hot if indeed it was getting hot.
Yair . . . old-iron-habit, kshansen or others . . . just out of curiosity, what pressure is in the air-box of (say) a unturbo'ed 6-71 at full song? Cheers.
I worked with a guy that was very good with these motors. He told me there was never over a pound of pressure and sometimes they went into a small vacuum similar to any natural aspirated engine. That is why they call it a scavenging blower. I guess. Its purpose was to take out the trash , burnt fuel. My thoughts are if they would have boosted it some the power curve would have been better. I'm sure you know they have air box drains on them that prevent pressure build up. Good motors very heavy.
Scrub, Yeah, overdriving the blower and closing up the exhaust valves a bit earlier might have led to some real power gains? I remember all the 8V71 and newer had big turbos pushing into the blowers, then on the silver 53's, or at least the late ones, they had a bypass valve that let the turbo air go around the blower, and the blower drive actually declutched....
Don't have an inline manual handy but checked a V-71 manual which should be close. The air box pressure is given as a "minimum" and also given at ZERO exhaust back pressure and also at Maximum exhaust back pressure. It is given in Inches of Mercury but I have converted that to PSI. Non-Turboed 4-Valve V-71's show approx 2.5 psi with no back pressure at 2100 full load, with max. exhaust back pressure they list approx 4 psi. Did not write down the spec's for the 2-Valve V-71's but they were a little higher, makes sense as they would have a bit more restriction in the valves! By comparison an N-75 Turboed engine would be around 15 psi at full load. As this thread is actually about series 53 I did a quick check and the 53 series is about the same spec's as the 71.
Yair . . . Thanks kshansen. and others. Those low numbers surprise me. All these years I have imagined those bloody great blowers were giving some supercharge effect. I suppose it was a trade off . . . more supercharge=more parasitic load, the turbo was the way to go. Cheers.
If you look at it, the goal was to build a light weight, high speed diesel engine, with multiple configurations using common parts, and of course easily rebuildable with the liners, and high reliability. The lower the boost pressure from the blower, the higher the reliability! There is only a brief window in the cycle when the piston is all the way down, with the exhaust valves open. Meaning, the detroits needs a richer charge since there is mixing with the burned charge... I think the detroits were great for the era. Howard
I agree. And I think they are still great today!
I believe the main reason for the blower was to just clean out the cylinders and fill with fresh air for the next compression and power stroke. Just need to remember that every up-stroke in a Detroit is a compression stroke and every down-stroke is a power stroke, no wasted exhaust and intake strokes!
To be honest I never gave much thought to boost pressure on a naturally aspirated Detroit . After Scrub Puller asked I could not help checking my 6-71 this morning . It topped in at 4 psi . Heck , I may even mount a boost gauge in the cab . http://s1016.photobucket.com/user/td25c/media/100_3468_zpsn5ywz4iv.mp4.html?sort=3&o=1 Something else I thought of was just for a quick check of fuel flow open the tank look at the return line stream if possible . 4-53 was just off idle speed and it was flowing pretty good . http://s1016.photobucket.com/user/td25c/media/100_3475_zpsuzkxgwp1.mp4.html?sort=3&o=0
Was that test of the air box pressure actually at full load or just high idle in neutral? Spec's are for full load where engine is working at the max horse power rating for the engine.
Yeah kshansen , It was at high idle in neutral . I think I will mount a gauge in the machine . Be interesting to see it under load .
Yair . . . Thanks fellers. This stuff/information although irrelevant to me I find endlessly fascinating and appreciate the replies and inputs . . . it keeps me thinking and (hopefully) keeps that "old timers" syndrome at bay. Apologies to the original poster for the hi-jack of his thread but I would be surprised if he did not find the ongoing discussion interesting as well. Cheers.
On a similar note to kshansen' note, a muffler on a Detroit will clean up the exhaust smoke by creating a slight amount of back pressure for a little better air box pressure. It also saves a ton of money on hearing aid batteries.
It has always amazed me at how much warm fuel flows on the return line on the Detroits. If the fuel doesn't gell in the first 15 minutes when it is cold as the dickens, it is not going to gell and the fuel tank soon is warm to the touch. My 60 gallon tank on the slasher would have 6 inches of snow melted off in an hour or so at 0 degrees F.
No apologies necessary I like it when these things take on a life of their own. That's what this forum is all about, learning. :thumbsup
So your gonna shim the transfer pump , over drive the blower and ad a turbo to get up to 175hp. I'll be looking for a dyna hoe on espn. Hopefully your problem is solved and you can keep going.
I still get to work on them weekly, it seems. They are the best engine made, to convert diesel and air to noise! About the only thing they don't like is overheating. They will crack heads. Otherwise good, simple, cheap engines!
Going back to an earlier post Scrub, the blower bypass valve you'll find on a turbo'd engine and it's supposed to open up and equalize the pressure on either side of the blower. There is no direct disengagement of the blower, but the pressure equalization means that essentially the blower isn't using engine power to push the air. I used to do alot on the 16V and 20V 149's, and it takes a lot of engine power to run 2 or 3 of those big blowers. Also on the 2 bangers there should be a small 90 degree elbow with a short pipe coming out either fron or back of the engine block, it is the air box drain and when the engine is running there should always be some air coming out of it Anyway going back to the original problem, we'd sure like to hear how you're going with the issue!
Yair . . . Zed Thanks so much for that explanation, even after all these years things are clicking into place. We had two eights, one twelve and one sixteen V-149 (all turboed) in the powerhouse in a little fishing port on the Gulf of Carpentaria. They replaced a herd of low speed Mirlees, a Blackstone and an English Electric . . . there is a thread on here somewhere with pictures of the decommissioning. They ran trouble free for several years until I left but didn't mind a drop of fuel compared to the old girls. Cheers.
Actually nothing significant to mention. Had some prior engagements to attend to today. None had to do with my backhoe but I did get the infrared thermometer yesterday. Right now everything is a cool 45 deg. Also got some new gauges, a mechanical water temp and oil pressure that I plan to hook up temporarily to the fuel line after the filters. Filters I did not get yet, I want to see what the pressure is first. The suspense is torture isn't it... Hopefully tomorrow's testing I will have some obvious results. Stay tuned...
Yep scrub they suck the juice thats for sure. Went and found your other post, good pucs from back when we could wear shorts hey?!
Yair . . . . Oh dear, them's were the days. (wry grin) Cheers.
Fuel pressure is 70psi, water temp never went over 180 deg. Even the oil pressure is a hefty 60 lbs. The temperature today was about 40 deg, colder than last time. But second run up the hill engine still died. I didn't even throttle all the way down. Here’s a video of what it’s doing. https://youtu.be/EkY_-nJ8Qc0 I forgot about looking at the smoke but at the beginning of the video is a good shot and there isn’t any. I didn’t hear the engine change sound this time. The RPM today is only 2550. Not sure why it’s lower now. The water temp gauge is an old one I had, I’m exchanging the new one. Didn’t need a 12’ capillary tube. I looked for hot spots with the infrared thermometer but didn’t find any. The head was under 150 deg and the exhaust was under 400 deg. At least I don’t have to worry about the engine overheating. I guess the only thing is run the rack. But until then, “run it hard”!
Looks like you are running out of fuel . Got an obstruction in a line somewhere or filter clogged . Can you look in the tank while the engine is running and see fuel running from the return line . Should be a pretty good stream .
Sure sounds like running out of fuel to me also. For your RPM check your linkage where it attaches to the governor. If it is the clamp style on the varible governor the clamp sometimes slip allowing the throttle to bottom out before the governor is wide open. I'm betting on a obstruction somewhere in the fuel infeed line. Might take a temporary tank/can and connect to the primary filter and see what happens.
Running out of fuel? Even with 70 psi going into the head? The linkage is an easy fix. Been from one end to the other with it. But why do you guys think it's running out? There are two out lets from the filter. One going to the head, the other to my gauge. Added: The oil gauge on the left is hooked up to the fuel line.
td25c is full of BS Blueboy , this problem on the 1983 Dynahoe may be more serious than we think . Could be an issue with the computer or circuit board on the machine . This could get expensive real quick ! You should cut the loss & sell that rig to myself or old -iron- habit . The Dynahoe looks like cool rig . I like it !
Make an offer
Had to add some humor to the thread Blueboy . That looks to be a well built unit just from looking at the picture and the video you posted . Just need to figure out the fuel starvation issue . It's something simple .
Ya that thing is a tank! Definitely a heavy duty machine. Originally I thought the filters could have algae growing in there but with the pressure coming out I figured they were ok. I will get new filters Monday and maybe new rubber on the fuel line. Couldn't hurt.
No smoke- no fuel. It's not that complicated. Old Iron Habit mentioned a test for air leaking at the fuel pump seal. If your gauge is reading the pressure going to the head, then I can't think what else it could be?
Some of the unit injectors have a filter screen internal, if too much gunk gets past the filters, or the fuel goes bad in the filter housing or lines from setting, they plug up. The backpressure stays up because the fuel can't flow through the injector to the return, at 70 psi you may have fuel bypassing internally in the pump?
So if little fuel comes out the return line, thats a good sign the injectors are clogged.? And if there are bubbles that would mean the seals are bad on the pump or a bad line going to the pump.? Should be easy to check. After work, I need to get my donkey out there before it gets dark. I'm not trying to make this more difficult than it needs to be. Diesel engines are a new ratio for this old gear head. Learning how to keep these old machines running is cool in my book. Thanks for helping!
Your fuel return line should throw a 1/4" stream like a 8 year old boy if the lines and pump are working properly. What is the line from the fuel pump to the second filter made of. I have seen them replaced with regular fuel line hose and they don't work. If it is not steel as from factory I have used 1/4" hydraulic hose with no issues.
Here is a section out of the operating conditions for a 53 engine that give the "fuel spill" rates. Note these are at high idle/no load conditions.
I skipped the bubble test and took both lines off so I can get new ones made. After tomorrow my hose guy is closed for the holiday until Monday. All steel lines after the filters. Anything else would be almost impossible because that would mean the previous owner would have to do some maintenance. Ordered fuel filters and a gallon of injector cleaner, should be in tomorrow. I figure the cleaner is worth a shot. I used to have a stream like that. My cousin could get his over our heads. But then I could only get half that. The only electric pump I have is for a carbureted gas engine. I think it's good for 15 psi. Would that be enough for checking the pump seals?
I remember the 871 injectors were inexpensive to rebuild, we used to send them out by the engine set... Howard
I found a place near by that will swap for rebuilt ones for around $100 each.
To answer a couple of your questions. I would think that 15 PSI should be enough to see if the pump leaks on the back side when running hard. Will your gas electric fuel pump work for fuel? Many will not. I use a rotary one made for diesel. About $40.00 at O' Reillys. I still would not be in any big hurry to change out the injectors. As stated before, run the crap out of it for a while. The injectors may be a bit dirty but I do not believe that would causes it to run out of fuel and die. It may be why you are not getting maximum RPM but get a couple full tanks of fuel run thru it under some load at full RPM first. Them engines are made to run against the governor day in and day out.
The pump I have is a basic vane pump. I figured one fluid is the same as another, relatively speaking. Are you saying it might not work? I'll wait your recommended time for the injectors. I heard you can run the engine with injector cleaner 100%, does that sound like a good idea? Run against the governor under load for sure, but is it ok with no load? I know gas engines don't like it. New filters $20, injector cleaner $22, new hoses $100, a clean running engine priceless! Happy Thanksgiving every one!
Actually I think the 12v (Holley) pump only puts out 7psi, if that changes anything.
My gut says run the overhead and check the governor. Even though you are getting 2550 rpm you may not be getting full fuel when the governor calls for it. The injectors shouldn't be over 50$ per if that is the problem. If the rack has issues and you get them fixed you will be surprised at how much it wakes up.
I'm not sure where to start, but started with the old filters. First test I put the new inlet hose on and stuck it in a bucket of fuel. I put a clear hose on the return coming out of the head. At first there were no bubbles and had a good stream. But then I noticed some bubbles coming down the hose. They come in sections not all the time. If you watch the video you'll see what I mean. But only like the ones at the beginning and the end. At high RPM there wasn't any extra bubbles. The video is after I changed the filters and ended up with more bubbles. I took the pre-filter off and checked the gasket but it looked fine. I even put some STP on the gaskets to help seal it. At high RPM you can see a lot of bubbles which could explain a lot. Another test (I lost track by now) I put the 12v pump on but it didn't show any leaks. Maybe not enough pressure. Now the picture below is the pump and what I did was plug the holes at the bottom and filled it up with kerosene. So with no possibility of air getting in that way I was still getting air from somewhere. I think that sums it up. I don't know, maybe after things warmed up that created more bubbles since there were some from the beginning. Tomorrow morning I'll fire it up and see what we get. Maybe it was a coincidence when I changed the filters I got more bubbles. I don't know, but it is starting to get a little frustrating. I didn't run the injector cleaner yet, maybe tomorrow. https://youtu.be/ctqzkheo84w
Fuel tank have a drop tube from the top on the suction line ?
My first dynahoe 160 with a 353 had a similar problem... every once in a while it would start losing power... started finding air in the fuel lines, filters,etc... so I checked all the seals and started replacing lines and what not..... turned out to be the fuel tank... specifically the output port was getting debris shifting over it when the machine would start up an incline under power and the fuel pump would pull a vacuum trying to get more fuel which in turn would get air from anywhere it could. Solution: remove tank and thoroughly clean... problem solved, been running great for the last 15 years
Everything above was done from a bucket. But the fuel lines are connected threw the side of the tank.
I had that problem and cleaned the tank also. Makes me wonder if that created a leak somewhere and pops up when the engine gets up to temp.
Did you check the lines that run behind the fan belt? they get worn really thin and sometime clear through from a loose wobbly belt rubbing them...
Don't think mine has fuel lines up front. The supply and return run behind the engine. I took them out and got new ones made.
Blueboy these things either have a Limiting speed governor(LS) or variable Speed Governor (VS). You can and should run these things 'full givit' all the time. Not sure what governor is used for that application but I'm thinking LS. The LS only works to 'Limit' the speed at high idle ( so it will not overspeed), and at low idle. Throttle setting in between 0 and 100% throttle is just whatever your foot is doing on the pedal so to speak. VS however is governing throughout the entire rev range. Easiest way to describe is like cruise control, except it is working on engine speed not road speed. If you set throttle to 1500 rpm, and there is not much load, maybe the governor is only giving 10% fuel (via the rack linkages to the injectors) Then if you put a load on the engine (like going up a hill), then the tractor starts dropping speed, the governor then sees a drop in engine RPM, and automatically feeds more fuel in to maintain the 1500rpm.
Also I think you need to run that test with clear return line into bucket again, this time operating the machine in exact way when it is having the problem. Looking at the small bursts of bubbles in return, it looks like air issue. In the photo there is a grease nipple in the fuel pump... that should not be there! those 1/8" ports are a 'telltale' for when the seals leak.
Hang on I just realized you plugged that port with a grease nipple... Was thinking that someone had put a nipple in there and pressurized it with grease!
Yes those 1/8 pipe holes should be open, at least the lower one. They are located between two seals, one seals oil into the engine and the other seals the fuel into the pump. The idea is to let you see if there is a leak.
and a spring loaded zerk fitting acts just like a check valve...won't let pressure out, but will suck air in...time to pull the fuel pump and look at seals. Howard
The grease fittings were a temporary plug I put in to check for leaks. The picture shows doing a pressure test. I drained each filter can 1/2 way down and pressurized everything to 70psi. And with both valves closed it held for more than 10 min without loosing a single pound. Everything from the fuel inlet on the primary to the outlet on the secondary including the pump check out good. I even cranked the engine for about 5 seconds. Interesting side note, the pressure switch in the secondary filter on the upper left of the pic turns on the dash panel when it's pressurized. By now I thought it might work, I took the steel lines off and on and replaced one. Even tho they were all tight I thought maybe one wasn't seated right. But as it turns out it still has air in the line The video shows the same thing except when I pinched/restrict the line the bubbles stop and the line looks perfectly clear, but soon as you let go the bubbles come back. I'm wondering, is it possible an injector is allowing air back in from the piston stroke? https://youtu.be/BalIf9ire3s
it then goes on to say to Immerse the return fuel iWell here is a section out of the 53 manual referencing air in fuel, what it will do and how to tell: View attachment 145545 And here is a note out of the 71 series engine manual, which should be the same as the two fuel systems are the same. Run engine at around 1,200 rpm to check return fuel flow( spec's for 53 series were given in a previous posting ) It then goes on to say to Immerse the return line in a container of fuel. Air bubbles rising to the surface of fuel will indicate air being drawn into the fuel system on the suction side of the pump. They then recommend tightening all connections from the fuel tank to the pump. If there is still air in the return fuel I personally would connect a hose directly to the suction side of the pump and test again. If there is still air in the return I would suspect the fuel pump seals. If there is no air in return next I would connect the temporary fuel supply to the inlet of the primary filter. Now if there is air in the return it would point to the primary filter or the line from it to the pump. If no air in return then I would be checking the lines from the primary filter to the tank and if possible disconnect the suction line from the tank and connect the temporary fuel supply at that point. Last thing I could suggest is a crack or leak in the suction pipe in tank or a valve on the outlet of the tank if there is one. Basically if you have air in the return you need to check things one step at a time from the pump back to the tank one step at a time till you find the source of the air getting into the fuel.
Yes , that is a possibility . Although you would think might notice a miss . kshansen is spot on with the trouble shooting tips. Can be frustrating at times , could be as simple as a fuel filter gasket . Had an issue with my Kenworth . Got to where it did not want to start after sitting a few days . Could be a number of places for a small suction leak . I changed the fuel filter and it solved the problem . A guy needs an easy fix once in awhile .
Thanks kshansen , I have checked the filters and the pump for leaks and there are none. I have a new fuel line from a bucket to the primary filter. Everything checks out good from the bucket to the cylinder head. I am still getting aerated fuel coming out of the head, which makes me suspect an injector is not sealing and compression is aerating the fuel. td25c , I'm leaning towards #4 I will follow the suggestion by old-iron-habit and Delmer at the beginning of this thread and "run it hard"! I'm open for more suggestions, but I think I have my answer. Thanks everyone, Blue
I'm thinking that if it is an injector leaking that it is probably going to have the tip carboned up and running hard may not clear it out, but worth the try. If it does start to miss or sound different I would stop running as there is a chance there could be damage. One thing that might be worth trying would be to remove the exhaust manifold and try working it like that to see if there is a difference in the exhaust from one of the cylinders. Not sure if there would be more or less smoke but any noticeable difference would be a clue to where to look. As this is only a 3 cylinder I would strongly suggest replacing all the injectors if you decide that is the problem as they probably are all the same age and if one is failing the other two might be right behind that one. If one wanted to go all crazy to prove it was an injector you could remove the fuel return jumpers from all three cylinders and make up three return hoses to the fuel bucket and run that way to see if one is causing the problem or many be all three are.
This was discussed earlier, I thought the engine wouldn't run without the turbo. Exhaust manifold and turbo are one unit. I'll have to go back and reread that section. But I like your idea of separating the returns. This morning I checked the fuel restrictor size and did a spill test. It's .080 and the GPM is: .722 gpm at 1000 rpm .882 gpm at 1250 rpm 1.090 gpm at 1500 rpm and the same 1.090 gpm at 2000 rpm Seems to top out at 1500 rpm Where did you find that section from the operating conditions in post #69? I couldn't find an exact mach on the innerweb for my engine. What makes me wonder is why the bubbles go away when I pinch the return line. YouTube link in post #89. Is it possible the .080 restrictor is to big? Might have to buy a service manual since I will probably run the rack and change the injectors some day . Sticker on the valve cover: unit (SN) 3D0189209, model 50338300, spec B001277 Anyone have one to sell or know a good place to get one?
I ran 1/2 gallon of the injector cleaner 50/50 threw the engine at 2000 rpm. And WOW let me tell you it did nothing! But you guys knew that. Why is it when everything gets hotter the bubbles get worse? Am I on the right track with a bad/dirty injector?
Sounds like you're getting to the pressure where the pump starts to bypass over the relief, and at that point since it's not sucking near as much fuel, it may just stop sucking air from wherever it's getting it. I'm still thinking the injectors are partially plugged internally, but then I may be crazy. Oh wait, we've covered that. :tong
Guess I missed that this is a turbo engine, but engine will run with the turbo off but you would need to plug off the oil feed line to the turbo while running it. That was out of a service manual I downloaded a couple years ago for a project at work. Are you holding the end of the return hose under the top of fuel so it doesn't spray through the air causing the bubbles? I'll try to find out where I down loaded this one, or if you send me a private message with an email address I could try to send it to you if email program will handle the file size. It is actually in two separate files to keep the size down. Just looked at the manual I have and it only shows a 4-53 turbo for turbo engines with N-70 injectors
This isn't the place I got mine but looks like the same manual: http://igor.chudov.com/manuals/Detroit-Diesel/Detroit-Diesel-Series-53/ It is broke up into smaller sections so each one is a smaller down load.
If you take the fuel lines off of a inj and then jump it out, you can see if you can stop the fuel bubbles that way. If a inj is bad and you are good, you will find it first time!
Do you mind to post some pics of the engine , turbo , manifold , governor. I think replacing the injectors and running the rack and setting the governor will cure this.
Hey Mr. Lanway, That's not the first time you suggested that. This thread and another one of mine. 15 years of sitting is not good for them. No, the the end is in the bucket somewhere. I was pinching in the middle of the clear tube and noticed the bubbles going threw it went away. I had that link in my archive somewhere, I forgot all about it until you posted the link. Tons of information! Something interesting I am wondering about. In that manual 10 sec 13.2 page 2 has the stuff kshansen posted before. In it has the fuel restrictor at .070, mine is .080 and is pumping out way more fuel than it should be? Is it possible the .080 restrictor is to big, causing the bubbles somehow?? That is something to consider. Will do, soon as I can.
Hard to take pictures at night. Hopefully you can see what you need.
S I think 80 is to big. I will look at one of mine that is at home tomorrow. Not 100% but I think it should be a 70.
Went to look at the restrictor on the 353 that is at home today. While I am back home, walking and talking, I am wearing a horse collar due to breaking my neck Friday, (I was lucky, no surgery) but I am unable to crawl in and pull the inspection covers off the machine to get to it. Sorry I can't help right now.
Hate to hear that old-iron . Take it easy for awhile bro .
Wow man, sorry to hear that. I'm curious, but I'm glad you didn't need surgery. 10 more days I go in, right shoulder. I will pray for you.
After seeing your last pics blueboy I was reminded of a similar problem on a michigan loader getting air in the system.... turned out to be a cracked flare adapter(from overtightening)... like the ones threaded into your pump and primary fuel filter. Not sure if you already checked them or not? or if you have positively determined air is coming in before the injectors or not... Sorry to hear about your neck old-iron-habit, hope you have a speedy recovery
I, because of a stupid, knew better mistake, rolled my antique Iron Mule forwarder. I wil start a post after I go out tomorrow and get some pictures of my error. No idea what shape the machine is in yet. Still upside down in the timber.
Yikes! I'm 98.7% sure everything is good up to the head.
Sorry to hear about your neck Old Iron Habit, broke mine years ago when I thought I was immortal. Didn't need surgery either but really gives me grief 20 years on. Blueboy, it really seems like you've tested and validated everything up to the head. I know I am just concurring with some other guys here, but I reckon you need to change out the injectors. It is possible you got 1 with a sticky needle and combustion gases are pushing past and into the fuel. Another question, being an Aussie, I never heard of "running the rack". Does that mean setting the racks? I still remember this one"Valerie Tickles Gary's Balls Mainly In Bed" Valerie - Valves Tickles - Timing (injector height) Gary's - Governor Gap Balls - Balance Racks Mainly - Maximum no load speed In - Idle Bed - Buffer screw
I'v done a ton of work on this machine over the summer. I still have lots to do but at this point anything like injectors will have to wait until next summer. Yes LOL, I haven't heard that before.
In the picture I put a clear line after the pump going to the secondary filter. NO AIR BUBBLES! But the line coming out of the head has a lot! I just wanted to eliminate the possibility of air getting sucked in. The YouTube clip shows the bubbles disappearing again when I pinch the line. https://youtu.be/1s6QdjmQiOA The original restrictor fitting was .080 and put out 1.090 GPM at 1500 RPM. I put the .070 fitting in and it was .799 GPM at 1500 RPM. I bought another fitting (currently installed) that is drilled out to .062 and it puts out .674 GPM at 1500 RPM. According to the information available the fitting should be .070 and put out .6 GPM. The question is should I go by the “right” size or by the GPM out put? At any rate the bubbles are still there and their actually worse than before. And now when I throttle all the way down from 1400 RPM the engine dies. What is causing that? Maybe it’s the .062 fitting (don't see how) or running with 50/50 injector cleaner nocked something loose. It seems I’m making it worse. Tomorrow I will put the .080 fitting back in and see if the bubbles go back like they were. Before it would only have small streams of bubbles once every few seconds until the engine got hot then it would have constant bubbles. But now it has constant bubbles even at start up.
I would say if you have no air in the line from pump to secondary filter but lots in the return from the head you have pretty much proved the problem is one or more injectors with bad valves. Once you eliminate all the things that are not the problem what's left is the problem! Sounds like injector shopping time to me. I'm guessing the correct restriction fitting is now causing the problem as it is not able to vent off the air fast enough. Once you get the new injectors installed you should be fine.
Sounds like inj. time to me. The last ones I bought from Columbus Diesel were under a hundred apiece but it's been 5 years so who knows? I know guys used to put in restrictors with smaller holes to up the pressure to get a little more out of 'em.
That makes sense. Looks that way. I put the .080 fitting in and started the cold engine and it was like before, very little bubbles. Before the engine got a chance to warm up I put the .070 fitting in and there were more bubbles. I guess last time the engine was up to temp which seems to cause more bubbles. I dug up another stump and went for drive out back and of course there was no difference. NO SMOKE NO POWER. But it gets me there and back. Throttling down seems better but you would think that a smaller restrictor would create more pressure and more power but I guess with more bubbles it counteracts all that. I'm going to leave the .070 fitting in and run it as is. Next year when the weather gets nice I'll give my dinosaur a tune-up. Thanks everyone for your advise God bless! And God bless the U.S.A. Blue
Keep us posted on how it turns out Blueboy. Good Luck
More confusion. I talked to a guy at church and he relayed my problem to a friend of his, an "expert" on Detroit engines and he said it can not be an injector(s) because the injector pressure is much higher than the pump pressure. I know the injector psi is way high but I'm just wondering, how high, 20-30,000? I don't know, maybe he wasn't relayed the correct information... Which is highly likely.
Have you pulled and tested the injectors? Have you run the overhead and checked to see if the governor is working properly? You can also take a sample of the coolant to see if it has combustion gases that may indicate head problems.
No I haven't done anything under the valve cover yet. Waiting for spring weather to get here. But winter hasn't showed up yet, it was in the mid 50's today. Either way I just had rotator cuff surgery on the 9th. Hopefully in another month I'll be good to go. I thought if there were combustion gasses getting in the coolant it would pop off the radiator cap?
I've been looking for a shop service manual for this Detroit. I have a pdf off the innerweb but I would like to have the real thing. eBay has so many I'm not sure which one is the right one. Does anyone have a link or a picture of a good manual? And I need to know what tools I will need and a good place to go shopping. I have set flat tappet cams before, I'm sure this Detroit won't be a problem. SN 3D0189209 Mod 50338300 Spec B001277 Thanks, Blue Is this a good one? http://www.yesterdaystractors.com/DDS53SERIES_5095.htm
Other than feeler gauges, screwdrivers and wrenches the only special tool you will need will be the correct timing tool for your engine. Looks like a little "T" with a pin on one end that goes into a hole in the injector body and a little knurled handle on the other end, you set the injector height with it.
Seems easy enough. I think they come in different heights, any idea what it would be and where I can get one?
I found this place but if anyone has something better... http://dieselpro.com/detroit-diesel-injectors/353-injectors.html
Yes, the height determines the timing of the injection pulse. I used to buy mine direct from the Detroit dealers, but they're probably available from other places. As I recall there were two for each series, the 6-71's we had you had to know if it was standard or advanced timing, seems like there was a mark on the end of the camshaft, but it's been 25 years...
Been trying another trick but it hasn't worked yet. A guy suggested running Jet-A fuel threw it. Said it would clean the injectors. Actually the bubbles looked different, maybe less of them, maybe finer looking. It could be because it was clear instead of red. I ran the engine at 2000 RPM for 1 1/2 to 2 hours with the hoses in a bucket. The only diesel was from what was in the filters. I do know that after the run when it was idling there were no bubbles. That is the first time this has happened. I found a place I think will help, Leid Diesel Services in Newville, PA., about a 3 hour drive. I'm going to get some new injectors. Winter hasn't hit yet here in Pittsburgh, so if I can get them in now I should be ahead of the game. I'll give them a call Monday. My manual should be arriving soon. Merry Christmas everyone!
OK I give up! No more Jet-A fuel, I ran about 5 gallons threw it all together and it doesn't look like it's going to get any better. I hooked up the fuel lines and the bubbles look pretty much the same. Although, idling down does seems better. I changed the oil yesterday. When I first got the machine I put in 15w-40 diesel oil before I knew better. Now it has Rotella T1 40w and a new filter. I would rather have Delo 100 40w but I have to order it. Next time. I know this was mentioned before but I took some better measurements. The exhaust manifold at the #1 cylinder is about 70 degrees colder than the other two. On to the injectors!
i have a brand new Condition 53 Series manual and have done many of these tune-ups. I could give you some pointers if you need them. I also have all the tune up tools and can direct you where to buy them. Send me your email address and I'll contact you. Have done over 50 overhauls of these engines. Simon
Its evident you have a problem somewhere in the injection system or some other problem. Straight 40W is recommended for these engines. Jet A , or any other concoction won't do you any good. Your 1 cylinder is either dribbling badly and not firing correctly. It could be a broken or stuck ring or a valve issue. You might be able to rent a compression tester when you pull the injectors and test. I would while its open. Loosing 1 cylinder on these motors kills the power.
I agree with testing compression on #1 while the injector is out. Could just be the injector but east to test while its out. Then you will know for sure. Did that machine set for a long time before you bought it. It is quite common for stuck rings when the Detroits set for a few years. Thats part of what running the Pi** out of them is all about.
Injectors have been ordered...
Actually these motors can run up to 3050 RPM continuously. Phone Midwest Diesel in Thunder Bay Ontario , Canada and they will confirm that this is so. You need to set all valves and injectors first and have the fuel racks set with even bounce. The governor buffer screw has to be backed out first before start up and you need vice grips on the governor control tube clevis pin bracket in case it wants to run away. You would probably want to have someone there who has done one before to prevent a run-away and to show you how to set the fuel rack preload and buffer screw adjustment. One mistake and in less than 10 seconds the valves can hit the pistons on overspeed.. Just a friendly warning. When perfectly tuned up can produce closer to 90 Horse power. Most of these engines ran very good around 2800-2900 RPM. As old_iron _habit said they were made to scream. All the best to You.
You are absolutely correct and i've seen motors that people were ready to overhaul that just needed to be adjusted and ran 100 % afterwards. Simon
What's wrong with this picture? I think I found my problem What is this thing in the circle? And the arrow goes with it? I assume it shuts the fuel off if the oil pressure drops to low. Why would someone make it inactive and should I put it back? It's rather disappointing when the manual I ordered is the same out dated ones on line. There is no mention of that thing above. I was going to check the compression but I don't want to spend the time in making the tool to plug the hole. I thought of using this injector but I'm not sure if it's worth it. I want to get this thing running again. Any comments?
Not sure what that item is in the lower picture, would need to see it probably in person to figure it out. Where does the line going off to the left from the back of it go? Anyhow as for the upper picture, looks like a broken spring, circled in picture below: Very possible this was the problem, assuming that is the spring that holds the needle valve on its seat!
Did some searching in the 1973 Manual I got off line. I'm wondering if this "extra part" in you engine with the line going to it is a newer version of the "Throttle Delay Mechanism" that is shown in section 14.14 of the service manual? Just a note if not familiar with Detroit manuals that 14.14 is near the end of the chapter. The one in the manual is similar to what we had on some of the 16V-71's. It has a little cup area on the top that caught oil to be used through an orifice to slow down the speed of the rack to cut down on smoke on acceleration. Just wondering if what you have is a new design that has a dedicated supply of oil to keep it working better. If I find out more I'll post it. Forget if you mentioned the age of this engine or the machine it is in, might help determine what this thing really is!
Engine and machine is a 1983. I see what your talking about, the throttle delay. I'm not sure how the one in the book woks but it could be. The line goes down by where the oil pressure is. But there are 3 different "outs", gauge, governor and that thing. My manual is dated 1973. Isn't there a newer version for my year?
I can't tell for sure on this small screen, but it looks like piece on the 53T engines that limits the throttle based on the turbo boost. I wonder if they could have put a 53T head on this 53? Are you sure that steel line is oil pressure and not intake pressure (boost)? they used a steel line to the airbox on the Ts. Is this a 4 valve head, or a 2 valve?
It is a 53T, is it not Blueboy?
That broken spring in the injector sure is a problem, it is for the needle valve. The other thing is the fuel modulator. You have the later version which is controlled by air box pressure. Someone has slid the lever over so it doesn't work. It basically has a cam ( the long piece in the middle) that is attached to a piston. At low boost, the cam limits the maximum fuel rack movement. When boost rises, the piston is moved by airbox pressure and lifts the cam, this in turn lets the modulator lever move the rack closer to full fuel position. The steel pipe should go out of the hcylinder head and to the airbox. When you're setting the rack make sure the fuel modulator lever is not going to bind on anything, better still loosen the scres so it can rotate freely. You don't really need it, but it will save you fuel and limit smoke if it is working. You can also set the injector height without buying the height tool, if you have a vernier caliper just set it to the correct measurement and use that.
So I was close with the throttle delay, this set up is just a little better as it is controlled by boost pressure similar to an aneroid on a Cummins or the old Puff Limiter on the older Macks, fuel ratio control on Cats. Now days all this is controlled by a software program in the ECM!
Yes, it has the T. 4 valve Thanks Zed! What do you do over there in Australia? Wish the manual I bought was up to date (1983) I think that spring also controls the check valve. Double function, is that correct? I guess that fuel modulator is pre electronic crap. If that's all it does then I think I'll leave it unhooked. And Mitch504 yes that pipe leads down to a cover on the side of the block. I thought it was an oil line but I guess not. That makes sense now. I already have the hight tool, but will use my calipers. I could get crazy and use my depth mic. Anyone use an old injector for taking compression? I would ruin it by plugging the holes but a $35 core charge is cheaper than $300 for a used tester on eBay. Knowing the compression would be nice but I'm sure I found the problem. I want to get this thing back together. As far as setting the exhaust valves the book says to set the gap at .026 cold and run the engine temp to 160* - 185* and check/readjust the gap at .024 hot. Just wondering, is really necessary? It's only .002 difference.
Hi Blueboy, the .026 cold is just a safe starting point once the engine is hot it will be different
Ok, will check when hot. Slight problem... One injector nozzle has 8-.0055, the other two has 8-.006 What caught my attention is the .0055 follower spring is a different color and is harder to push by hand. But they all are tagged 5A60. Ready, set, wait, back up.
Back in the 90's I worked for Detroit in Australia, so most of the work we did was on the 2 strokes, everything from 53's to the 20V149's. Not actually in Australia anymore, have been expat for major OEM for awhile. You are correct, the spring in injector needle is also for the check valve. I think you should call the supplier of those injectors and ask why the spring is different. The injector nozzle difference could just be for fuel delivery calibration. I would just do the valve setting cold and then leave it. Did some googling and found a really good website with sections of Detroit manuals, google " Detroit 53 Tune up Numeralkod" and the numeralkod website with tune up chapter 14 should come up. It looks like latest version that you need for your engine.
Hey Zed, You know your way around a Detroit then. That tune up section is what I was looking for! I ordered my manual from Yesterdays Tractor, looks like I'll be calling them Monday. Also will call Leid Diesel Services. I don't think it's anything they did, they buy them remanufactured in the box. ...welcome to my world... With the project on hold for a week I ordered a compression test kit ($80 eBay) and a Kent Moore fuel line socket ($21.90 eBay). Hopefully everything will get here by Friday.
Your engine is a turbo , but not a crosshead turbo, either a small pin trunk type or large pin trunk type. Your governor is a Single Weight Variable Speed, It is not a by pass Blower, the correct fuel restricted fitting is a .070 fitting. That governor is the worst kind to have to adjust. You would be wise to get some help before getting into the fuel rack setting. The throttle delay was moved over on purpose as previously said. Just a few things I seen on your pictures. Simon
OK, their sending me another injector and another hight tool. They sent a 1.508 and the manual says 1.496 He said his chart calls for the 1.508 though.
My injectors are the 5A60 So am I correct, the proper hight should be 1.496? Just wondering why Leid Diesel sent me the 1.508 tool.
Maybe for advanced timing? That chart is all standard. Do you have the readout from the spec number? Or check the end of the cam, it will be marked.
Spec number? Would that be like a cam card, listing the duration, lobe separation and lift? I'm sure diesel cams are similar. If so, no. If it's necessary I'll tare into the engine and look at the cam. 1.496 is in the middle of what he gave me (1.508) and the smaller hight (1.484). I think the standard set up should be good. The thought crossed my mind but, I wish I would have checked them before I took them out. I suppose I could put No. 2 and 3 back in and see what they were set at. I don't think my compression tester will get here by Friday. It's coming from California and hasn't shipped yet. No big deal, I just hope my tractor shack holds up.
Engine spec number, will be on the serial plate? Cummins calls it a CPL, etc.
I put the numbers in post 120. Does that look like the correct ones? The valve cover is off so I can access the whole tag if you want me to post it.
Right, I can't swear to it, but that should lead you to a sheet that gives all the important data, horsepower, rpm, torque, injector size, timing, etc. as it came from the factory.
Just set it at 1.496 and be done with it... for that machine it will be just fine I reckon.
OK, before you ask “what the fudge is he doing now” please understand I’m only asking this to acquire more knowledge on diesel engines. First of all, I totally plan on setting the injectors at stock hight. With that said I’ve been looking on the innerweb that different injector heights change the timing. And some of what I found is: “Injection timing has a huge effect on cold starting. The more advanced, the easier they start and the noisier they are.” And “On a Detroit the taller injector height is retarded, lower is more advanced. For example 1.484 is more advanced than 1.500", the injector being lower is closer/sooner to injecting fuel; advanced.” Anyone have a comment on that? So far I have 3 different measurement from 4 different sources. Led Diesel 1.508, manual and Zed 1.496 and local Detroit dealer 1.460 who said 1.480 would pump more fuel. What’s a poor b*****d to do? I’ll tell you what this one is going to do, I trust Zed and the manual and will set it to 1.496 But I’m not done yet, just for fun, I want to see how many more different numbers I get when I call a few more places… No compression tester until Monday. So I will be putting my engine together on my birth day (16th) the following weekend. A little black smoke on my BD cake please Still having fun… Stay tuned.
I put the No. 3 injector back in and it measures 1.460. I think it was replaced in 1984, the other two are stamped 1983. So that means the engine never did run well after that. Mark from Leid Diesel said the cams in the turbo engines are advanced and the injectors need to be set retarded to compensate for it. He said anywhere between 1.496-1.508 will be good. Originally he sent me the 1.508 gauge from their chart, maybe that's the preferred number but if 1.496 will make the injectors a little more retarded and better at cold starting, then that's good enough for me
No. 2 is 1.464 :beatsme
More interesting factoids. The exhaust valves are all over the place. Can't do No. 1 cylinder but the clearances are: No. 2 cylinder front set is .027 rear set is 0.000 Zero! I can just barely move the little rocker that goes over the two valve stems. No. 3 cylinder front set is .016 rear set is .033 Two of the rocker shaft standoffs were on backwards and the valve spring was rubbing against it. Who ever worked on this thing would be better off flipping burgers. Don't know who all suggested running the rack but MAN were you right! Of course this is not normal wear but still...
If I'm thinking right, taller is more retarded, takes more stroke to hit the point where the injection pulse starts.
Lantraxco you are correct! I got it backwards above. 1.508 is more retarded than 1.496 Thanks for keeping an eye on me I don't know how this machine ran before. Added: Supposedly more advanced (shorter) makes the engine easer to start cold. Above I said retarded, I meant to say advanced. It does get a little confusing, up, down, more, less...:dizzy
Sounds like it was well overdue for a good tune up! Should be running great after you're done, please let us know how it performs!
Bubbles! :crying I still have bubbles! :crying Acts like it did before. I don’t know what to think. I was sure I eliminated everything from the tank to the engine. I put a clear hose after the pump, I didn’t see any damn bubbles. The only thing left is the pump. I’ll double check the fittings but I think a new pump is in order. The hard part is done, it did need at least one injector and the valves set. One thing about the bridge clearance on the rear set of valves #2 cylinder. I think that is what was making the engine loose power (post #1) and having a different sound towards the end of the haul up the hill. (post #7) With zero clearance, when the valves get hot and expand they wouldn’t close and loose compression. Compression is #1-325, #2-360, #3-310 That’s a cold engine and using the starter. The book says to run the engine at 600 RPM for each cylinder checked at operating temperature. REALLY? After I put the new injectors in I checked the valve clearance on #1 cylinder (which I didn’t do before) and they were both .020. So front to back was .020, .020 .027, zero, .016 and .033 To add to my problems, getting a decent manual has been difficult, but that’s the way it is in my world. The one from Yesterdays Tractor was good but out dated (returned). I ordered one from a dealer and is was one thick 1 1/2” book with glued solid binding that looked like a cheep reprint with faded pages. (returned!!). Ordered this one from eBay, an original manual copyright 1990 material (Revised / Updated from the original issue dated February 1985 edition). Publication Number: 6SE202 Printed in the U.S.A. EBAY LINK I haven’t gotten it yet but I think it’s a keeper. The price went up $30 after I got mine. The valves are set to .026 and the injectors are set to 1.496. I readjusted the fuel rod and the control levers, their set even on all the injectors. So far I haven’t messed with the governor.
How is the power? Still starving on the uphill?
I have not taken it out for a drive yet. It's probably better because of the adjustments but I ordered a pump rebuild kit anyway. Another $50 invested.
Compression done, results... Sketchy. Could there be some sticky rings here? I've done plenty of compression tests on gas engines and the TDI 1.9 PD in my surrogate sons Jetta. I have NEVER heard of running the engine to do a test. Is testing compression like the book says really necessary? Elevation here in Pittsburgh is in the neighborhood of 1370 feet. "By the book" my compression should be in the 400-430 range?
To do an completely accurate test you would need to run the engine at the 600 RPM. Does compresion go up when running faster? I would expect so as there is less time to leak past the rings. With that logic, (if it is good logic) you are probably in the ballpark. I would get the air out of the fuel and run it first. Some one will correct me if I am wrong on the compression theory.
I'm sure you'd get higher readings with it running than just spinning 150 rpm or so. The biggest thing I look at is the difference from cylinder to cylinder. 310-325 is not a lot, but 310-360 is. I think at this point, I'd take her out and work the mess out of her. Rev her tight and dig a hole, fill it in, dig it again. The best explanation I ever heard for how to run a Detroit was to first slam your hand in the door so you'll be in a bad mood. They like high rpms and steady work. DO NOT LUG a Detroit! Run her hard and steady for 2 or 3 hrs, then see if you've fixed your problems.
The two stroke engines get air from the blower which needs to spin up enough to overcome the normal air bypassing through normal clearances, and then there's the fact that it's ported so it has a very short compression stroke, I would assume a large difference between cranking on the starter and running at 600 rpm, which is probably why they developed that plan in the manual. You will note the last line that tells you NOT to do the test spinning on the starter is emphasized with italics? I think they were asked that question a few times, heh.
If I'm in the ballpark I'll take it! The difference is a concern. That's why I'm going to run the pee out of it and hope for the best. I guess it's a two stroke thing... Makes perfect sense. I'm learning As far as the bubble problem... :deadhorse I'm not sure anymore. I rebuilt the pump but there was NO difference. The old seals and shaft looked good. It would be nice to know if I actually have a problem or not. See what you guys think. Someone said normally there are some bubbles but this still looks excessive. Video looks wavy https://youtu.be/ZpLTYZkF9Zc I'll hook up the hoses and bucket on Friday and see what floats to the top. Thank for hanging in there with me. I think this post has almost ran it's course. I know my patients have.
Apparently there are no bubbles, it was/is fuel agitation. I talked to Ervin at Leid Diesel, he said that's what it looked like (Emailed the video). Also to hold the hose end below the surface of the fuel in a bucket to be sure. Last time I did that was with the bad injector and there was definitely bubbles. I'm pretty sure that little trick was discussed here before. All is good after one bad injector poorly set valves and one over excited wan-a-be diesel mechanic. I love you guys! :drinkup brews all around! Thanks everyone!!! Blueboy
Glad you finally got the motor sorted out...I am taking delivery of my first piece of equipment in the next week, a Deere 450 crawler loader with 4 in 1 and hoe...I imagine it will need some sorting! I had an interest in a Dynahoe 490 4x4, but freight would have paid for a new undercarriage for the Deere! Howard
I'll take a good microbrew IPA!
I thought this was worthy of mentioning. After checking the fuel the engine was at running temp, I checked the valves and the gap was .027-.028, .001-.002 bigger from being set cold. The injector was 1.497, .001 over the cold setting. That was on the #1 cylinder, I didn’t see any need to go further or to make any adjustments. And I noticed the compression was much higher when I was turning the engine by hand. When I set everything cold it was a lot easer to turn. Which means the overall compression should be higher. Wonder how this machine goes in the snow…
Get going! Push some snow! Work that old girl!
OK. After all this we demand pictures of you pushing that poor little defenseless white fluffy stuff.
All while trying to twist the tach needle off!
More pictures and video on the way. Runs grate!!
:usa
:notworthy A few more pictures. 1st and 2nd my dog Woofy checking out my work. 3rd my temporary tractor shack. 4th is a doe I burred after someone shot it and left it for dead 4 weeks ago, was a gut shot, guess they couldn't find it. YouTube link of pushing the snow and driving around the burn pile for the 3rd time. Not a lot of black smoke but lots of power. The governor still needs adjusted, still wants to die if I throttle down to fast. I'm amazed how well this thing goes in the snow. But I did get a little stuck trying to back up the hill, the sun melted the snow a little and the weight if the machine compacted it solid ice. This machine keeps getting better and better, it would not be this good if it wasn't for the guys on HEF. Thanks doesn't even begin to scratch the surface of my appreciation. https://youtu.be/ACC3dYXH_SY
Sounds great. Rebuilt fuel pump is holding full pressure under full load when it is using more fuel. Keep working it.
Good looking dog, Hi there Woofy! To me that is just the right amount of smoke, just a wisp on acceleration and once up to speed clear.
Probably a quarter turn on the buffer screw one way or the other will help with the dying on deceleration issue?
Been offline for a couple of weeks but glad to hear it is all sorted! I agree with Lantraxco the buffer screw needs a tweak. Easy to do just loosen the locknut and wind the crew out, while giving it short bursts of revs. Hard to explain in writing but I'd disconnect the throttle and from idle, give it a good quick rev, then slam throttle back to idle, when you have buffer wound out, it will hunt like a b*****d, maybe even stop running. Slowly wind the buffer in, all the while giving it the quick rev up and down. When the buffer is set good, the engine revs will not drop below idle speed. If the buffer screw is set too high, it will idle higher rpm. I remember 6-71 inlines with the variable speed governor were a PITA to set and get right. Also mentioned in previous posts, but a common saying for the Detroits was "Drive it like you hate it"!
Work it like I stole it! Football any one? Buffer screw was definitely the problem. Wasn't any lock nut, has plastic inside like a lock nut. The spring was bound up with crud, so I took the screw out and cleaned it up. Seems like there should be a plunger at the end of the spring, but maybe not. It wouldn't hunt but why should it, I feed it whatever it wants:tong I'm guessing because there is no booster spring, works fine without one. The idle is set at 600 RPM and the maximum no-load speed is set at 2700 RPM. I can slam it down to idle from full speed and it doesn't die anymore. It works perfect, praise the Lord!!! You guys are awesome, THANKS!!!
Yay! I do love a happy ending... or beginning as the case may be here. Love the dog too.
That ball looks a little under inflated, that dog play for the Patriots ?
Sure does look like an Australian cattle dog! Or blue heeler for the prim and proper...
Better get that good looking dog some earmuffs now that the Jimmy is screaming like it should. Or teach him to sing a duet with it.LOL
Great dogs. I had one for 18 years, with me every day. Sadly on the 19th of this last December she didn't wake up to go to work. I'm still kinda just...
Lantraxco Thanks! He’s my buddy. Goes with me everywhere. Used to take him to work with me until he went after the UPS man. He wasn’t going to bite him, just wanted to make him poop his pants. Kshansen No Patriots fans around here. Zed I’m sure you see these dogs all over the place in Australia. Woofy is an out of work Australian cattle dog enjoying the good life! I would like to see him round up some moo moo’s but instead he tries to keep me inline. Likes to bite my hands and feet when I put my socks on. Not to mention biting my feet when walking around in the yard. Very energetic and smart dogs! Old-iron-habit Thanks! He doesn’t like the dinosaur roaring, he will go around to the front yard and keep an eye on things but I usually keep him in the house. RZucker It sucks loosing a companion, I had to send my last cattle dog (Woody) on before me about 3 1/2 years ago. I adopted Woofy 3 weeks after that. Go get a puppy. God bless, Blueboy
After a couple days of medium to hard running I checked the oil and the dip stick read high. 2 quarts over to be exact. It holds 14 quarts. At the beginning of day 1 it was good, after day 2 is when I checked it. The 2nd day the engine got a little hot, just above 200. Normally runs at 180. It was a little low on coolant. Changed the oil and filter and ran the engine with the valve cover off. I didn't see any leaks on the fuel lines but after it got up to temp I checked the torque (144 in-lb) on the nuts. And actually I got about 1/2-3/4 turn on most of them. I'll put it back together and see what happens. I appreciate your suggestions. P.S. This machine never ran so good!
After setting overnight at least, just crack the oil pan plug loose, see if you get any dribble of coolant from the bottom of the pan?
I see where your going with this... But actually the coolant was low because I left the bolts out for the air filter mount. It was low 3/4 gallon and the engine is still pushing 190+ when using the loader to move dirt. That was 1/2 hour ago on a 45* day. I'll check behind the plug just so it eliminates one possible problem. Thanks, Blueboy
I don't want to jump the gun and say I fixed it but after I re-torqued the injector fuel line nuts and about 3 hours of hard running the oil level remains good. I was going to wait until I ran it some more but with the rain turning my dirt project into a mud bog I'll mention this now. Thanks Mr. Lanway for your response I'm looking into getting the radiator cleaned out. $80 for a Caustic soda bath...
All is good in Dynahoe land! I cleaned the radiator and hyd oil cooler with some Zep engine degreaser from Lowes. It actually worked pretty good. But my yard looks like the Exxon Valdez sprung a leak. No need for the Caustic soda bath, temp holds at 185* After about 15 hours of running the oil level seems to be holding ok. It might be a smidge over where I filled it up originally. Just an incentive to make me check it more often.
Yahoo. You are going to need another project to fix now with so much free time on your hands. Of course with a Detroit.
After some more run time the oil level was still on the rise. So one more time the valve cover has to come off I put 80 PSI of air pressure in just the head fuel passage and sure enough air was escaping under the fuel pipe fitting. Apparently just running the engine isn't enough to see any fuel leeks. Below is a pic of the filter cap on the remanufactured injector. If I didn't know better I would say that looks like a scuff from a file. Don't know how I missed that:Banghead I already put on a new fitting and fuel pipe, then one more $100 oil change and I should be good to go. A 3rd time doing this might be a pain in the donkey, but it's better than rebuilding the engine.
Well at least you should have a nice clean Detroit by now! One test I was always told to do anytime the fuel lines were removed and reinstalled was to put a couple drops of 40 weight oil on the nuts and run the engine for a time. Then look at them. If there is a fuel leak, even small one the fuel will wash of the oil. You did have to look close but would be noticeable!