Hello all: I acquired a JBG 40h manlift a while back. powered by the deutz f3 l1011. It was dropped off in my yard non-running. This was my first experience with a deutz. ( I have rebuilt cat motors, cummins, and too many gas engines to list) First and foremost was the obvious lack of a radiator, thus this motor is commonly mis-nomer-ed as air cooled. They are in- fact oil cooled (primary loop). Does deutz make an aircooled??? It would have a bunch of fins... Needless to say I was soon to discover all the intricacies of the l1011, including the timing belt, the non-keyed engine pulleys, the governor and also the removeable??? cylinder liners. I actually got the thing running on 2 cylinders. #3 piston which is next to the timing belt side of the engine would not contribute. Did compression check and found 20psi. Tore motor down to find #3 piston had been completely eroded by blow-by to the point that the bridge between the rings had melted away... The hour meter shows 2300 hr... Then I called around to see about rebuilds. In the first round, 3 suppliers, including deutz, tried to sell me liner kits... (even tho I supplied engine #). When I finally removed crank to see about pulling the liners out I saw that they were cast in to block. I called back to deutz and insisted that this was the case and finally the guy said oh yeh there is an oversize piston available for that engine... Then he advised me not to rebuild as they are very complicated engines. He said they could sell me a reman engine for $6400 + core + shipping on engine and core!!! (by the way the Deutz piston lists for $400 ea.) Needless to say I went back to aftermarket kit that I found with .020 oversize pistons for $1700. It came with everything except alignment pins and tension gage (even though it had a belt and idler) and thermostat- had to go back to deutz). The only thing really complicated about these engines is that the shop manual is in 3 or 4 languages: referring to the same set of pics. Sometimes the pics come first and sometimes the text and it takes a while to map the thing into english. (you get it for free on line- I ended up printing the whole thing and for the more complicated procedures like the governor rebuild, I cut and pasted the english text next to diagram) Had my machine shop bore,deck, polish crank, rebuild head for $1500 Had to buy another belt kit with tension gage and pins. I welded up a 3' schd 40 pipe to a plate that bolts to crank pulley to get the 130N-M + 270deg torque on the crank bolt. All told I've got about $4K in motor. Here is the problem: Motor runs real good, but it has a problem starting when cold. When you crank starter, motor almost immediately fires, but then dies. You go thru this process about 5 or 6 times before it stays running. When warm, it restarts perfect. I think it is governor related. ANy thoughts?
yes deutz made lots of air cooled engines with big fins like a small air cooled gas engine. The first thing I'd check is air in the lines, simplest and I'm guessing those engines will start easy after running out of fuel, unlike some. Do you have a transfer pump on this? What kind of fuel system? I'd do whatever it takes to bleed the air before cranking it and see if there's any change.
So the injection system has a mechanical lift pump that brings fuel from tank, goes thru filter and then thru a common rail to the individual cylinder injection pumps. There is a return line at the end of the common rail so system should self bleed.
check the pressure going to the inj. pump.. You'll prob. find a weak/bad lift pump.. VERY COMMON.
Does your lift pump have a "hand primer" on it?? IF SO.. pump the HP afew times before starting it..6-7-8x IF it stays running after THAT.. you KNOW its a LP problem.. {bleedback}
Another thing to check is the LAST banjo bolt on the inj. pump.. ie: the return bolt.. IT SHOULD BE a double banjo bolt w/ either an orifice or a spring & ball/valve??
IF that spring is broken OR you have the return line UNDER the feed line.. theres the problem..
The pump does not have a hand primer but is actually brand new- came in rebuild kit. I don't recall seeing a difference between the banjo bolts on the injection pumps. I'm not sure what you mean by a double banjo bolt... I believe the return line nipple is brazed into the fuel line linking the three injection pumps. Machine is up in the country so I will check this weekend and get back to you. Tx
Yes check the return line.. & unfortunately, I've seen BRAND NEW lift pumps have a split diaphragm right out of the box.. They normally have a 8 or 10mm bolt holding the top of the lp down.. you can remove it & check the diaphragm & valves.. seen them get screwed-up too.
So, you got one hole that essentially had a melt down. Did you confirm that the fuel pump for that cylinder was timed properly? 2300 is a pretty low hour failure. A lot of times, people will replace a leaking pump not knowing that the base gasket is actually a shim. Wrong desired height equals advanced or retarded injection timing. This will lead to a damaged piston crown, ring failure and cooked engine oil. I bring this up, cuz I see no mention of pump setting only timing belt setting. I would hate to hear how your investment went south cuz of a simple oversight. Good luck.
I did not check the individual pumps’ adjustment. I just put them back they way they came out. Motor runs well and doesn’t smoke. I did see the procedure for shimming the pumps to adjust. Is that critical?
Absolutely. Your timing can be fast or slow. Are all the ID tags the same color? Do they have the same letter code? There's 4 variations for the older ones. Normal, smoke control, naturally aspirated and turbocharged. You can't mix em up either. Had an acquaintance swap out 4 pumps. Reused all the original "gaskets" Machine ran great for 2 days, third day, hard starting fourth day would only start on ether in 70*F . No compression. All the crowns were ruined , one cylinder scored. Now, it's something I'm very cautious about whenever I hear of someone working on a Deutz air-diesel. Good luck
VERY GOOD POINT, FWF.!!!! "WE NORMALLY" get the questions about the hard start/no start.. SO.. I completely glazed over the actual engine o/h.. IF the inj. pumps haven't been changed & the shims mic out the same.. chances are its ok..?? BUT.. you are taking a chance.. especially if the block has been decked/shaved..
THAT being said.. check the "easy" stuff 1st.. fuel pressure & return.. cuz timing aint easy.. lol Another thing you could do is pressurize the fuel tank before start-up..a couple of lb's of air pressure.. Force the fuel up to the inj. pumps.. I still believe its a supply problem, just from the description. But its easy to "armchair" QB from here.. IF you had a helper.. You could pressurize the tank while they cranked the engine.. just to see if it started & stayed running.. Good luck & BE SURE to let us know how ya made out.. DONT melt your engine..
Thank you gentlemen for your input here: The good news is I had time this weekend to start the machine and move it into the shop before it snowed, where I can pull the pumps and check the dimensions and verify I have the right shims installed. I will also check fuel pressure from the lift pump. It will be easy to check pressure at the #1 injection pump by just removing the return line. I'll let you know as soon as I get time to check. Tx
So I am here with machine. I pulled out the injection pumps- none have shims. The block to cam follower depth is 59.5mm for all pumps, the pump plunger height is from 61.8 mm for all pumps. This measurement is off the scale for a single set of shins. When the motor is running and is hot it seems to run well. No smoke. Should I put the 1mm shims or should I extrapolate the chart and figure out how much to shim(1.2mm) with two sets of shims? Tx
Does your engine have smoke control? If so , you will have to forcefully compress a piston within the follower. Then measure while piston is compressed. I'm sure you did, but just asking, did you verify you were 100% at the bottom of cam lobe. I will dig around to see if I can find my cheat sheets
What is smoke control? Yes I am sure I measured on the back side of the cam lobe. Thanks
This kinda illustrates how you have to compress the advance piston to remove that from your calculation
I show shims available from .375mm to 1.360mm
I've never worked on a Deutz. Are they all built like this with cam driven pumps for each injector?
Yes, kinda gotta look at the entire engine as the fuel pump housing. What is your timing chest is also your governor housing. They are strange critters, but very simple. Very reliable with proper maintenance.
At least the air/oil cooled ones are. The liquid cooled pre tier IV are individual pump and nozzle also. Tier IV everybody switched to common rail high psi fuel injection over a certain horsepower/kw.
I used to work on a hot top crew and they had a roller with a Deutz. The fuel economy was crazy. They ran it out of fuel once and it started right up after refueling.
So my pumps all have deutz # 0427 1701. Original assembly had no shims. When I measure x-A as manual shows all 3 cylinders show a difference of 1.5 mm. Which means when pump is sitting on follower with cam at bottom lobe you should be able to measure x-A directly as the gap between the block and the pump sealing surface? I ordered 1.1 mm shims from deutz Also got a lift pump to put in the fuel line coming from tank
Have you determined whether or not you have smoke control ?
I don't think it has smoke control. How can I tell? The pumps all have red tags (see photo) but numbers don't look anything like the ones you showed. Also cam followers are solid. Tx
If the follower is solid with no hydraulic piston, there is no smoke control. Good, one less variable to deal with.
But your tags are red. Should be turbo charged with smoke control. I think I would consult with the dealer service department in your area. And those numbers that are identical, I think those are your part number through Bosch
Deutz dealer is pretty useless... Did I tell you they are the ones that first told me this was a sleeved motor and they advised buying a reman engine vs rebuilding? I am planning on putting one set of shims in which should make X-A<.5mm. I have to ask again: Why not just use a feeler gauge between pump and block to measure X-A directly- The A dimension (block to follower) is pretty easy measure w/ depth gauge but the pump measurement, X is a little more difficult as the surface that ride in the cam follower is not necessarily parallel to the mating surface when the pump is on the bench. Also the manual shows a weird dotted line at the bottom of the pump (like there is additional stroke that the pump has?)- see attached?
X is desired height of compressed pump x + dotted line equals free height, uncompressed
Now that is a horse of a different color. No where in the manual does it indicate that you should compress pump to measure X. that would explain why my x dimension is off the scale... I might have to use a vise to measure that compressed length or is there another way?
No, no. Your desired height is on the tag of the Individual pumps. It should be the number that varies between them. Each pump is different. So, for example, if your pump says like 6-7000 you divide that by 100 which comes back to 60 or 70 mm. That is your desired installed height. That is dictated by your pump ID tag. You subtract your actual measured height from desired and shim accordingly. Yes, I know that nobody does a good job of explaining this.
What happened to your ORIGINAL PUMPS??
Info I show is for B/FL 1011F , X should equal 58 mm . So for that you would measure depth to follower , this is "A" If your desired is 58mm subtract 58 from measured depth and shim.
I believe these are my original pumps. They all have identical #'s: Bosch and Deutz. There are no tags on pumps except for the riveted nameplate- see above I got this machine from a guy who claims to know its history and he said nobody has ever done any work on the motor since new except ordinary maintenance. (timing belt was original). My measurements for A are all 58.5mm
So what does the service manual specific to your engine state is the correct dimension, 58mm? If so, you would shim .5 mm to bring into spec.
The only manual I have is the downloaded 3 language one that shows the procedure on page 4.00.44. If I read it correctly, it says to measure both X and A. X is always assumed to be greater than A and you shim up the pump to equal that difference. I am thinking that the pump's spring extends the pump plunger out past the end of the pump stroke and that little delta needs to be compressed before taking X measurement. I will be back at the machine this weekend and will see if I can figure that out. Tx
How did everything shake out for you?
Hi: I shimmed out the pumps with the thickest shims available- 1.15mm. According to my measurements of A and X, I measure a difference of closer to 1.4mm on all 3 cylinders so I am still lacking .25mm in the shims. I am a little confused because this motor was in original condition (no one had rebuilt or worked on it before me and I don't think my work affected the clearance). I put the pumps in as they came out with no shims. Motor doesn't run noticeable different with or without shims. It seems to have plenty of power and doesn't smoke much. I have put the whole unit (JLG 40h) back in service. I still plan to install a lift pump to try to troubleshoot the difficulty in cold start, but it is not that much of a problem and starts fine on restart. I also don't see why Deutz doesn't just say set fuel pumps in block with cam lobe down and measure distance between pump and block with feeler gauge ( that is the X-A difference)... Thanks for your help