So after working with different customers and companies it seems that everyone has a different price on parts which im sure is formulated in how much you spend with your dealer. Lets for the heck of it compare a simple 1R-0716 and 1R-1808. We have to take into consideration the currency. Mine is in CAD [/ATTACH]
T’was ever thus, and it will continue to be so. That’s why you log on to Parts Store using your customer login ID. Doing that sets the pricing structure. Customers spending more have always been able to negotiate bigger discounts on basis of volume. If I posted what we pay for Cat parts from a dealer in a 3rd World country you’d never complain about what you pay ever again.
I replaced the water pump in my 2013 F150 about a month ago. I bought the pump aftermarket, but that stupid plastic slash rubber t rad hose, I had to get from Ford. I ordered one from my local dealer. List price of $89.64, and they sold it to me for $74.57. It didn't arrive with their freight next morning, and I couldn't wait, and as luck would have it one of the guys from the shop was going to Moncton to get some western star parts. he said he would stop and pick it up at Taylor ford if they had one. I called and they had some. Now this is a dealer about 100 miles away. It listed at $95.88, and they sold it to me for $95.88. My dealer called me that afternoon and told me that the 3 Ts they ordered, ended up at the Moncton dealer, so that is probably the one I got.
I’m not Posting to complain. Just for curiosity sake so see what prices are across the world.
Here in Alaska..
314-9289 Fan hub kit for a D6K fan drive - $2268 from a Cat dealer in US (FL), $3900 from the dealer in UK. This was a couple of weeks ago. The Sunshine State 1R-1808 - $34.04 1R-0716 - $25.54
Pennsylvania ,us
And folks wonder why they go after market
Its not that bad really and you know you're getting a quality product and what the manufacture recommends. I run Napa/carquest filters in some of the older non-essential equipment.
Pricing is that way with everything....local independant heavy truck parts place has a 10% off sale on Baldwin filters every spring...my big time farmer friend gets 35% off every day. I no longer buy filters there, CarQuest has a twice yearly sale 35-50% off. They are Wix and Baldwin. Ed
Just did a major service on my 2014 F-150 5.0 L. Changed all coolant hoses, all belts, all idlers, tensioners, water pump, thermostat, plugs and boots. Got a quote from the local dealer for right at $1,500.00 for parts only. I bought Motorcraft parts at $650.00 from a parts store. Are they the same? Motorcraft is a Ford product. While automotive parts are ridiculous most tractor parts prices are insane!
In buy 1R-0716 from KW=$21.70. Parts prices are all over the board, it takes some shopping.
If you go though the local truck parts supply for cat parts there generally cheaper then the cat shop if you can stand the wait.
I was surprised to see that our pricing compares quite reasonably considering that our Pacific peso is only buying 61 US cents today. 1R-1808 $39.90 1R-0716. $29.93 3149289. $3559.65.
Dealers (not just Cat) often do promotions for their fluids and filters that makes them the same price-wise as the parts houses. For many customers in more remote parts of the world the parts house is not an option because it doesn't exist in their location.
I just wish they would give you the best price they can the first time you talk to them or put you in touch with who can. When I was pricing undercarriage I talked to a parts guy and after awhile he gave me a price. It was way higher than anywhere else. Later I talked to someone else and told him the price I got was really high. He told me generally they can take about 30% off retail price IF you talk to an undercarriage specialist. That's a huge difference! You shouldn't have to shop around to find out they can give you a much better price. It's the same thing buying a vehicle. Give the best price you can the first time. I liked the Saturn platform where this is the price no matter if you buy it at dealer A, B, C or D. No haggling, no discounts, the price is the price. I understand large customers get a discount but that doesn't mean you should rip off the smaller customers. When they get big will go somewhere else.
It's not a case of shopping around within the dealer, it's knowing who to talk to in the first place. For undercarriage you should always speak to the PSSR who deals with it, if you get the Parts Counter you ask to be put through to him - simples. The subject of PSSRs and undercarriage (for Cat machines anyway) must have been discussed on HEF at least 100 times before today.
The PARTS GUY (especially) at the Cat dealer should be telling customers who to talk to if there are specific people for it. I wasn't shopping around within the dealer, I was checking prices at other places for comparison. I was picking up some other parts about a week later and mentioned to that parts guy I got a really high price on undercarriage. He knew there were big discounts and who I needed to talk to, why didn't the other parts guy??? It's pretty obvious if you talk to the receptionist about engine problems she'll direct to the service department. It shouldn't be any different for undercarriage you need to talk to a PSSR. Was the parts guy just hoping I'd fork over 13.5K for D3 undercarriage (sometime around 2007)? I don't put a lot of hours on and got the undercarriage from another supplier for a little under 8K. What surprised me was Berco undercarriage was even more expensive than Cat with the 30% discount.
I'm in need of some d3c rollers and was going to go with itr I'll have to find out about this discount and see where it gets me since I'd prefer the cat rollers
Dave, it's all about who gets the commission on the sale. Right or wrong the Parts guy is not likely to send a customer to another group and lose his group's commission on a sale. Caveat emptor - buyer beware. Or in other words do your research first. Tyler, Suggest you call and ask to speak to the U/C PSSR. Let him come and do a complete U/C measurement (it's free) and see what the recommendations come from the report. If you then ask the PSSR to quote for you on the basis of the report's recommendations, he will. It's in his area of responsibility.
I don't think at the dealer level it should be buyer beware as to who to talk to. When I was looking at a landplane I spoke with a salesman I knew at the JD dealer. He thought I was talking about one for a skid steer. When I explained it was for a 3pt. hitch, he directed me to one of the AG salesmen because he was an industrial salesman. It would have been easy commission for him but wasn't in his product range. A lot of places salesman have specific territory and can't sell in another salesman's territory even it's someone they've dealt with in the past. The odd thing with JD here is the AG dealer can sell skid steers, small wheel loaders and attachments. About 10 blocks away is the JD construction dealer who sells the same skid steers, wheel loaders and attachments. I priced out some corn head grease just for comparison and it was about a buck more at the construction dealer. I don't think it's as critical on the small undercarriage. When you get into the bigger machines that are working all the time can make a big difference. If I recall my rollers were around $130 at the time. Cat were around $200. I didn't think 50% more cost would result in 50% more life. ITR I think is generally considered good undercarriage.
Bought my ITR products thru CAT and got it cheaper because I didn't have to pay freight. IF anyone goes that route, do count parts ASAP, mine was shipped short and by the time I installed CAT said they could do nothing about it.
Buying in bulk used to get better prices as well. I haven't done it in years but used to buy in case lots for filters. It wasn't uncommon to get more than a third off the list price for buying one of more cases at a time.
Someone earlier mentioned receiving better pricing for Cat parts from truck dealerships vs the local Cat store. That’s been my experience, as well. Many truck dealers have Caterpillar TEPS agreements with the local Caterpillar dealer. The price difference is about 10% in my area. Plus, the truck dealer often provides better service and will deliver for free. Truck parts only. Of, course some stuff crosses over, but you certainly can’t purchase GET or U/C parts.
There's on small problem with there inspection I'm not sure they would know what there looking at it has 4 different brands of parts on it now and it's not exactly OEM spec.
Most aftermarket is built to OEM specs. and it shouldn't matter if you're considering buying from Cat. Didn't realize you were talking about a CTL though. I think unless the Cat was pretty close in price the ITR would be fine.
Keep in mind this machine is on steel tracks derived from a 931 with some 299d parts involved the bottom rollers are d3/931 rollers
Well known aftermarket brands meet or exceed the genuine quality standards. Aftermarket ITR undercarriage has the similar lifetime with genuine, their track links are all made in Korea, I've visited ITR facilities in Modena/Italy some years ago. Donaldson and Fleetguard filters also good, we don't prefer to increase the costs with genuine ones. For Caterpillar engine cylinder heads we use Ghinassi, perfect quality. Japan made Rikin piston rings, Miba (Austria) and Clevite engine bearings meet genuine standards. In Turkey we've good prices as well, from the local manufacturer 234-0605 (transmission case assy for 980H), price 7310 USD, Caterpillar dealer list price about 30000 USD, big difference.
It's amazing how one person can have totally different experiences with same products I've had three really bad experiences with there quality. This was all for same customer. I installed 3408 head found casting needed to be ground out 3/8" of inch to fit pushrod ( they made me grind on engine ) it still runs today's. 980c planetary cover wouldn't fit in hub ( also grinder they don't like waiting ) and lastly had pins 3 thousands to big and flanges for center pins fall off ( no weld penetration ) it's not fun when a haul truck splits itself in knee high mud. Other than them instances....
There are defiantly places in the equipment world that you can get away with jobber/aftermarket pats. I am preparing to go up to the yukon for another season and we have two out of eight haul trucks that need the balls replaced or shims removed between the diff carrier and truck frame. the parts from cat are ridiculous. I managed to find cat surplus parts for some and I am considering jobber parts for the not so critical pieces. I will use cat hardware as it is a very critical load point. My initial quote from cat was $12,000.00 and I am at half that right now between new cat surplus, some jobber parts and the crucial parts from the dealer.
ITR undercarriage..? Same comment applies to Berco - no thanks. In fact no f'kin thanks........... Fleetguard filters.? Stuff 'em where the sun don't shine. Parts store brands too. Just because Fleetguard are owned by Cummins doesn't imply quality. Donaldson I would fit. They manufacture for OEMs including Cat but don't for a moment believe that their equivalent "will fit" element is the same internal design as the OEM Part Number of filter that it replaces, and that Donaldson also manufacture. OEM filters are manufactured to the OEM's design, not their own. If you doubt that then just cut one of each open and look at the internal differences, they're not hard to spot. I understand what you're saying, but when you factor the cost of someone's time to do all the due diligence on pricing/availability the savings become less. It might work for some people in a smaller operation, but IMHO the bigger the operation gets the less cost-effective that approach becomes.
yes I agree 100%. when I am working g for a big customer i just order all through cat. this is a decent size privately owned placer gold mine. we have 6 months of off season and nothing better to do then source parts for the up coming season. We will haul back anything that we can work on in the winter that makes sense to do out of the elements and the rest is all done on site. Anything we can justify on saving and bringing in ahead of time is money well saved.
I think it depends on the specific parts and the machine you're working on. My D3 size rollers were about $130. Cat were around $195 which is 50% more or $650 for 10 rollers. On this size machine I don't think the Cat rollers will last 50% longer. When you're the one paying the bill you have look at all your options. Do you park the machine because you can't afford OEM parts or do you fix it because you can afford decent aftermarket. There is some garbage aftermarket as well. OEM's don't always have the best parts either. Cat doesn't offer 3 ring pistons for 3200 series engines. IPD 3 ring pistons are superior without being overly expensive.
We've been observing lifetime of genuine and ITR track link assys on Komatsu D41E-6, D51EX-22, Caterpillar D7R working at road construction. We didn't see significant difference, in harsh conditions, lifetime about 4000-5000 working hours for ITR and genuine. * * * For bigger size machines, PC2000, PC3000, EX3600, EX5600 working in gold and coal mines, customers mostly prefer aftermarket hydraulic cylinders and undercarriage. Big cost savings there, because genuine prices are incredibly high, they sell with very high profit margins. In the beginning, customers hesitate to use aftermarket, but with one year warranty they accept to try, after 2 years they understand that, absolutely there's no difference in quality.
Apart from maybe small owner operators, hobbyists, & farmers, etc, who else runs equipment with 3204 engines these days.? It's been out of production in new machinery for 20+ years, so why would the OEM devote any improvement/development budget to that engine model.? Aftermarket can handle it.
I'm fairly picky when it comes to engine/transmission related parts. The only parts I will install in a Eaton gear box are Eaton parts, No Big W or IPD. I have had a good reputation on my rebuilt gear boxes and would like to keep it that way. Engine-Cat gets Cat, Cummins Gets Cummins and Detroit series 60 gets Detroit. Everybody can argue this point also Cat gaskets and Cat O-Rings only on Cat Engines. When you reseal a Cat retarder you only want to do that one time.-------One Ping Only.
The Laurentian abyss it is then
3204's and 3208's were in production for a lot of years and are known for blow-by among other problems. It took the aftermarket to come up with a solution that Cat could have easily done themselves. Cat apparently does more R&D than anyone else and developing a 3 ring piston doesn't seem like it would be a major engineering challenge. How much has Cat lost out on customers going to IPD pistons when they would have normally bought from Cat. In the case of 3200 engines the IPD pistons are better. Cat generally is the highest quality but that doesn't mean aftermarket can't be as good or better on specific items.
Main problem with the dealers is the price. Now in every sector, profits are lower than they were 30 years ago. But construction equipment manufacturers want to keep high profits. For example, this final drive of Cat 336D, part number 353-0585, dealer price was more than 28000 USD in year 2018. I purchased it 14475 USD. Genuine and new, of course not from the dealer.
Cat has premium filters but video's like this one are skewed towards Cat. I had an OEM hyd. filter on my skid steer that was made by Donaldson and it had the bands around the pleats. Looking at the 6 filters shown at the beginning of the video it's obvious only 2 of them are similar to the Cat filter. Maybe the Donaldson that is the equivalent has the bands around the pleats? Just like to see apples to apples comparisons.
This discussion is really about due diligence in managing any type of equipment fleet. Due diligence is about facts, experience and data tracking. Some things from my experience with aftermarket involve considering risk and reward. Track chains are a good example. I've used multiple brands in different situations which have different risk factors. I can't say that aftermarket is as good and certainly not any better that OEM. I have had expensive problems with both OEM and after market. The difference in each was the service level when there was a failure. I've had seal failures on aftermarket tracks and things like rollers and idlers. The OEM had no problem covering the warranty terms. The after market only gives their condolences. Knowing that, if I'm considering a large dozer in high production, I'm not likely to consider the after market for obvious reasons. If I'm considering it on a standby unit with only a 60% utilization say, I'm going to do what I can to save money. If you are talking things like transmission cases, engine blocks and hydraulic valves, I'm probably not going to be inclined to try to save unless the numbers are astronomically different. I'm considering the savings as opposed to the risk of losing production should things not work out.
In mining I haven't seen aftermarket undercarriage do much more than 50-60% of OEM life. At one time Berco went heavily into the undercarriage market for D10/D11-size machines. They aren't in it any more, at least not in any noticeable way, because they got their fingers burned.
Well I can say this, Without a doubt my shop drops/changes more oil than anyone on this forum, 68 tractors-105 refrigerated trailers. We have used at one time all the major brands when it comes to oil filters, and we have had failures on every filter brand where the can is crimped to the main threaded body---Except One Brand--------We have never had a Cat filter fail in that area.------It takes Exactly 1/4 mile to evacuate 10 gallons of oil on a C-15-fortunately the alarm went off and we never lost that engine and it was cold outside at the time. Lets see replace- ment cost on a complete C-15--about $29,000-screw it we will spend the 2-3-4-5-6-7-8-9 dollars more for the Cat filter. The filter that failed Fleet Guard.
In the grand scheme of things- 4/5 of 9/10 of fcuk all. Why.? Because they have far bigger fish to fry than to worry about some hobbyist out in the woods with his 30+ year old tractor. As I said before, aftermarket can handle it and it helps everyone get a slice if the “parts pie”.
Well said.
Agree they are always skewed, noting the failed filters were as black as tar (and should have been changed 100K miles ago). Do admit CAT has a better filter and I do use some of them, but not in all locations. Will also say, I have never had a failure do to a filter
I don't have experience on D10/D11 size bulldozers. But we supply to Komatsu, Hitachi and O&K mining excavators (weight more than 200 ton models) undercarriage with one year-unlimited hours warranty, aftermarket (not Berco). Didn't face any problem.
Again the risk vs reward/cost saving argument. (I might be prepared to challenge you on engine oil usage. We go through about 15,000 gallons a month, but that's something for another day.) When company has a fleet that numbers say 50-100 units and to overhaul a machine can cost in excess of $1m in parts, why would anyone even contemplate trying to save a handful of bucks on an aftermarket filter.?
With the price of oil below $5/barrel, I wonder if Syncrude is going to be looking for less expensive parts for their 797 fleet? In my case the Cat rollers didn't justify the cost for the amount I use the machine. If the Cat rollers had been 20-25% more I would have considered them but at 50% more I could have bought 5 extra rollers (1 side) for the same cost as the Cat rollers. I'm just saying that just because it's aftermarket doesn't automatically make it an inferior product.
Where does the $5 a barrel come from.? Brent crude closed on Friday at $24.93 and WTI at $21.15. Way down from where they were a month ago but nowhere near $5. Just think what it's done for Syncrude's diesel fuel bill......
I read it here yesterday for Western Canadian Select. A few years ago Syncrude was making over a million profit a day. I wonder how much oil Syncrude goes through in a month? They apparently have the largest concentration of mining machines in the world. https://www.fr24news.com/n24/2020/0...l-oil-sands-production-in-western-canada.html
On your scale-yes that's true-but it's hard to fit a 100 gallon oil pan on a class 8 truck.
5 dollar oil? Why that comes from the Beverly Hillbillies-Jed Clampett-up through the ground come bubbl'in crude-Black Gold/Texas Tea.
Would this apply to Fleetguard filters for large Cummins engines in mining excavators?
Yes.
All I will use is Cat filters on my Cat equipment - there better not be a red or orange filter on any Cat iron I own. Our equipment puts food on the table and just like a damn good mule you take care of it. I could care less that a Cat filter costs $10-20 more than Baldwin or Wix. We change engine oil and filters at 250, engine oil, engine filters, hyd filters and hyd oil at 1K. Those parameters are set in stone for my company and not up for debate as far as I am concerned. We track hours on all the equipment weekly so we can plan services accordingly. Ditto on the PSSR on UC. Put a new UC on our 953C the end of last year - the loader needed it and we needed a tax deduction, perfect combo. I could've saved $5-8k on the UC going aftermarket over Cat. However that loader had over 5K hours on the original chains. We had replaced one idler (shaft broke) one top roller and had one P&B turn. 5K hours on the original UC is pretty darn good for a 953C. It was a no brainer to go with Cat since we're going to run this loader to 10K hrs if everything else holds up. The loader is a support machine and the price of a new 953K is $200K. The flip side of the argument is our 321DLCR need some new chains and sprocket segments the end of last year as well. This machine has 7K hours on it and is a mainline machine. The 321 is up in the next 2 years to be replaced before it reaches 9K hours or so. We got 7K hours out of the factory Cat UC which is pretty darn good as well. I priced Cat and aftermarket and I could buy chains, sprocket segments and hardware for 1/2 the price of just the rails from Cat. If the Korean rails last 1/2 the time the Cat did that's 3.5K hours which leaves some meat on there when it becomes trade in time. The 321 still gets Cat filters at every service. When it comes to rubber tracks for our 279's there is no doubt I will go back with the OEM Bridgestones. 279-01 has 1400 hrs on it's factory set. The Bridgestone's are double the price of aftermarket however I've never in 17 years of running CTL's got 1400 hours out of a set of tracks.
This is similar to why I went with aftermarket undercarriage for a relatively low use machine. If I was billing out 1500 hours a year with it might be a little different story. "I priced Cat and aftermarket and I could buy chains, sprocket segments and hardware for 1/2 the price of just the rails from Cat. If the Korean rails last 1/2 the time the Cat did that's 3.5K hours which leaves some meat on there when it becomes trade in time."
It's like buying tools. Not sure if Snap on is still king, but it was for most of my father's career. When people said it was too expensive, he said they were quality tools and warrantied for life. Other tools have life time warranty.... yes but you're not making money if you're always replacing it. now mind you he has been dead for ten years, and was not really heavily pulling wrenches at least 6 years before he passed, but he always said the cheap stuff is ok if you don't have to make a living with it. I am a believer of quality parts, but as Dave said as far as under belly stuff, if it's not a high production machine the after market stuff is fine
They're only about 50 gallons in truth. You mean to say with all your mechanical skills you couldn't fit a 3512 in a KW..?
I suppose i could using a 20,000 lb steer axle to hold it up. But on that one you would need a spy glass to see the front of the hood from the drivers seat.