Hi, The starter in my Case 580 was sluggish and lazy. Before ordering a new starter, I opened mine up to have a look and see if I could see what’s wrong. As far as I could tell the problem was that 2 of the 4 brushes were shorter than the others and getting hung up in their cages and not pressing against the armature. I pulled the spring back and after getting the brushes out of their cage , I sanded the rough spots so that they again slide freely. I could see however that their length is short and their days are numbered, then the starter will fail. I also sanded the copper segments on the armature and then put it all back together and reinstalled the starter in the machine. This cleanup and freeing up the stuck brushes made a huge difference , it spun the Diesel engine much faster. After doing this procedure, I wondered if anyone replaces the brushes in their starters or just replace the whole unit , which is what I’ve always done. It seems like replacing brushes would be a lot cheaper but it may be hard to find a source for these and once the brushes are worn other components of the starter may also be soon ready to fail. Anyway , thought I’d ask. Thanks.
Any rebuilder will replace these and turn the armature There are quite a few in Topeka just look up starter alternator rebuilders
I don't but in most cases the brushes can be found. Just depends if its worth doing There is a place near me that rebuilds these kinds of things and I just let them do it. Much cheaper then buying
On a high hour starter unless the rebuilder has a torque load test stand to test run and load to amps required, you don't have much. If the armature is getting tired it will not be able to take a full load test at lower amps.
No, not with common, run-of-the-mill stuff. Rotating electric is highly competitive and easy to purchase. It’s too risky to open a high hour unit and warranty it afterwards. Except, I’ve had marine customers hire me to take their Delco starting motors apart annually. Clean, inspect/replace parts as needed. Check no-load amp draw, rpm, pinion, solenoid contacts and pull in/hold in amp draw, paint and install. Test cranking amp draw. This was for a critical application where the engines had to start every time. They even did that with new starters.
Thanks for the reply’s to my question. Coaldust, you mentioned that the electric motor market is competitive and that must explain how a new starter weighing 18 lbs is for sale online for $87-$102 , delivered, no core. That seems too cheap for any starter that will function, competition has driven the price down as you say. Besides failure to make contact and wear of the brushes that result in sluggish/lazy turning, do other components wear slowly and cause degraded performance ? I’d assume that any other component would either fail 100 percent or work 100 pct, for example a motor winding. Thus, dropping in a new set of brushes may be all that’s required to get another couple of years of service out of a starter. There are some vendors of brushes (ex: electricmotorsvc.com ) for motors out there although finding the correct matchup set may not be easy, it seems like a fairly easy fix to replace a set of brushes , even in the field.
looks like a delco starter but not sure try feeet farm or Napa for the brushes Amazon.com Tisco SRK403 Starter Repair Kit: Industrial & Scientific
Birdseye, You asked about other high wear components. The solenoid contacts really takes a beating and the most likely culprit of excessive voltage drop. The contacts can be replaced, rebuilt with silver solder, re-surfaced and the disc can be flipped over or replaced. A slow starter might be dragging the armature on the fields windings or poles. That’s something to look for when you have it apart. You can replace bearings, if needed.
Solenoid contacts are a major PIA on Nippondenso starters.
Birdseye, Can you post a picture of your starter? I was thinking about the glorious 80’s and trying to remember what a Delco 40MT sold for. I’m thinking around $500. I can pay full retail today at NAPA and get one for $325. Or, go to Kenworth and get a brand new gear-reduction Prestolite for $275 and no core charge. That’s what I usually do. They draw less amps, crank better and are way easier to install. it’s funny thinking back that we used to fix that stuff. I remember in school we learned how to rebuild starters and alternators. And those stupid series-parallel switches. Even in high school auto shop, we took Delco 10MTs apart, assembled /tested. Even turned armatures and undercut commutators. All that stuck with me and made me a much better troubleshooter.
Coaldust, You started me thinking of all the things that we used to rebuild, and sadly, when you think hard on it, what they have done is shifted all that work to China. We rebuilt all the wheel cylinders for brakes, calipers too. We cut the drums and rotors too. Try to find a garage that cuts drums rotors today. They just call china and get a $25 rotor. For that matter, find an auto parts store that can cut a flywheel any more...gone. Carburetors, were always fun, especially in the 80s when they added solenoids. Then front wheel drive became popular...we were the place to get drive axles rebuilt...now, they all come from china, but not sure how rebuilt they are! The list goes on and on, and who knows at what point it will end! And I truly agree that when a technician truly understand how something works, he/she will be much better at their craft...said another way, you are not just a parts changer that keeps changing parts until it is fixed , by luck that is...LOL
Or just go buy a 39MT with clock-able nose cone for 300 and be done with it.
colour me cheap, but i usually repair my own starters and alternators if i can get parts for them. some newer ones may not have parts readily available. i can turn the commutator in my lathe. no need to undercut the armature- that's for generators only, which unless you are restoring something, are usually updated with an alternator because generators don't have as much output at lower rpm. armature bushings in each end and in the middle(depending on the particular starter) need to have minimal movement, otherwise the armature will drag against the field coils. the bushings are usually oil-impregnated(oil-lite), therefore a plain brass bushing will not last. on starters with soldered-in brush leads, they can be more difficult to change if you do not have a large soldering-gun or iron. if a starter needs too many parts, it will be cheaper to go with a new or a rebuilt unit but not all are created equal. you usually get what you pay for. it also depends how often you use the machine
TLDR -warning There is so much extra electrical curriculum that needs covered now in school, that I stopped having my class take starters apart. But, I still had them take Delco 10si alternators apart and go through the process of testing and assembly. The previous lab time was well spent. It removes the mystery inside the component. They learn about testing diodes, transistors (VR), schematics, capacitors and the theory’s of electro-magnetic principles. There is also the intrinsic satisfaction of taking something apart, putting it back together and seeing it work on the test bench. Or, not. It can just as valuable for the learner to see the alternator go up in smoke. When designing curriculum, I like to put the electrical classes towards the beginning of the program. So, taking apart alternators were one of the first components they disassembled and got to use their tools and practice Psychomotor skills. Whats that mean? Movement, coordination, manipulation, dexterity, grace, strength, speed and so forth. Why? We can laugh about that, but many students entering trade programs have no practice using tools. Watching the students fumble and loose springs and other small parts required a lot of patience. The students had to learn patience, too. And accountability. I received some crap from my Division Chair and some of the Advisory Board members about “ rebuilding” alternators. Some of them got it when I explained the Cognitive theory behind my madness.
Truck Shop, Good choice. Nothing wrong with a 39MT. A couple pounds lighter than a prestolite m110603. Don’t have a core to deal with the Prestolite.
This gave me a laugh when I was a little kid I was always looking for something to rip apart. They never got put together after but was good fun for a 6 year old me
I design training for a Gas and Electric utility. We must show the new students what a flat head screwdriver vs Philips screwdriver (they call them the plus and minus screwdriver...LOL). Obviously, if they have never seen them before, they have never used them before. Pipe wrench, what's that!! And the righty tighty is unknown as well. To me it is a shame that we have a generation of students that do not have the slightest knowledge about technical skills! Tyler, You reminded me of the first time I "worked on" a lawnmower. I was just a young kid and my neighbor threw it out...well, I was going to fix it, so I started pulling it apart (had no idea what was wrong with it of course). Of course it never ran, but I can still see those valves from that flat head engine in my mind...I would say I learned! Funny ending to the story...the owner of the lawnmower told me that I could never fix it because the sparkplug hole was stripped...LOL good thing we tore the whole engine apart huh!
Someone expressed there concern to my mother to make sure I didn't sneak any tool on the schools bus when I stated school so I wouldn't take the bus apart for crying out loud
I do rebuilds on starters and alternators if time permits unless windings obviously burned out. Found out in the hard way that cheaper replacements you get online, and not so cheap ones from dealers is not the same quality. I don’t like the idea of giving my American or Japanese build high quality components, and get some Chinese knock off back. The matter is in the materials used to build the components, not how good the Chinese could copy the manufacturing. Replacement electrical components do not perform or last the same as original ones. But, there’s always the chance that winding insulation is started to fail on your original ones also. if the starter had oil leaking on it and brushes was soaked in it - brushes will go bad really quick.
The last, old school, auto-electric shop just closed the doors in Anchorage. You know the type. Walk in with a crusty relay from a 1971 whatever and they just happen to have a exact NoS copy sitting on a shelf. Call them with a request for a 36v Delco 50MT, ask me a couple questions, and the old fella in the back would have the correct pinion and nose cone installed and clocked, boxed and waiting for me before I arrived in will call. Hate to see them go.
There is a rebuilder I have used for years. He basically got out of the business. He said finding quality replacement parts is near impossible. He said the junk parts available now don't last and he is tired of having people think his work is the problem. I think that is the case for most of these guys.
The senior instructor at a very well respected diesel school here in Minnesota echos your remarks. He says that half the kids enrolled have no idea about the most basic of tools, nor have ever even changed a tire when they arrive for the first day. They deliberately over enroll the classes as they average a 45% dropout rate in the first month. Many enrolled based on the TV adds about that claim, "be a diesel mechanic and write your own future." As he says, the adds don't mention that you actually have to apply yourself and do something!
I worked for a large industrial supplier in tech. support. One of the salesmen was clueless. Sent an e-mail with a picture of a pipe wrench with a tape measure showing 14" beside it and needed a part number. It was an almost daily occurrence. What was even more astonishing was that most of the sales people didn't even carry a catalogue in their car. They couldn't even answer the most basic questions and their customers had to wait to even know if we sold the item.
almost sounds like acklands-grainger
We have a. good rebuilder here ,hes second generation in the business . He has bailed me out of lots of starter and alternator dilemas.Igive him all the old obscure starters i come across in an attempt to make up for the times hes found unavailable parts for me in his bone pile.I worry about the day hes had enough
BINGO! They got rid of anybody and everybody that actually knew something. They're trying to run it like the US and everything they tried did more to lose sales than gain sales. US corporate couldn't understand that Canada is a different market than the US. They're trying to compete with Amazon. They went from 175+ stores to only 31 and you can't just go in and buy something. You can go in and order it and even if it's sitting on a shelf have to come back in a couple hours once your order is processed. No stock on a lot of items and takes forever and a day for a special order. I worked in the distribution center a couple blocks away from Gregg Distributors main branch and Gregg's had more stock and there was always lots of people in the store. AG sold their largest store that was also close by. They built a 110,000 sq. ft. store/warehouse in Ft. McMurray (largest location in Canada) about 2015/2016 and it was for sale when my job was eliminated a couple years ago. Direct ship may be good but a lot of customers don't want to wait 2, 4 or 24 hours. They just want to go the store, pick up what they need and be on their way. Gregg's and other suppliers are probably laughing all the way to the bank.
I was able to find the part numbers for the brushes that fit the Denso starter in this online catalog for a company called link==> WAI that makes parts for a lot of different starters. They have a minimum order and so do their distributors so I couldn’t order from them. I was able to find 4 brushes on eBay for $13 delivered. I’m going to try my luck at installing new brushes, if all goes well... who knows maybe I can delay buying a new starter for a year. (Given the sad state of repair resources, wouldn’t it be a good idea for this forum to keep a folder of the few remaining part supply houses where DIY forum members can find scarce parts?)
It is a Nippondenso starter. Check the copper contacts in the solenoid, known for burning and not letting starter engage. Sometimes out of the blue will have try several times to get starter to work. If it doesn't have to pull starter and sand contacts.
Dave, That happens “ ..sometimes out of the blue...” but I thought it was the position of the shuttle shift lever, it’s a good thing to check and clean up that solenoid contact, thanks.
I dealt with Acklands for many years,watched them go from a first class supplier to worst class. The old store was great then they built a new wharehouse that never had a thing you wanted poor sales guys always had to tell you it was in Edmonton. I guess they were conditioning us for what was to come. I didnt even know they existed on line now. But Greg delivers twice a day to my shop whenever i need things . Wonder what the Acklands bean counters are thinking of thier revenues in Canada now or are we just a fart in the wind to them?
The center plunger comes out and there's a copper ring that can also get arced. Just watch when you take it apart as there's a spring in there and maybe another small part. Been awhile since I had mine apart on a Kubota.
They were over a billion in sales around 2015/2016. I know a guy who's dad started a large chemical company and Acklands was their biggest customer. They made a lot of private label stuff. In 2019 Acklands wasn't even on their list of top customers. Customers can't even talk to the people they've been dealing with for years. It's all call center's now and the tech. support is out of the US. We used to get mostly e-mails where we could research stuff and find the products the customer needed. Now it's done over the phone and they're supposed to have an answer in under 5 minutes. It's just ridiculous. They don't want to special order and just sell what they have in stock. Problem is they don't have stock for a lot of items in their catalogue. Wouldn't be surprised if they closed up in a couple years.
Who do I talk to about getting a folder set up on this forum for recommended suppliers for repair parts that will take online or telephone orders and ship to locations in US & Canada? Most of the members here are owner operators and would benefit from an up to date listing of where to get obscure repair parts, such a list could save hours searching the Internet and dealing with less good vendors etc. It would also benefit the shrinking number of vendors who are committed to serving our community, a win-win in my book.
The mother lode of brushes & other misc electrical bits http://www.carbonbrush.com/automotivebrush.htm Joe H
I once had a friend, a collector. He went to auctions, had family money, and several unused barns to store it all. He hoarded tens of thousands of parts for old equipment. He replaced brushes. All the rest of us take our starters, generators, alternators, voltage regulators, carburetors, and radiators to Arthur's Auto, or another similar shop. Yes, I could replace brushes, if I could get them, I could replace bushings, if I could get them. Or, I can take them to Roy. When I pick the component up it is new. In my experience, better than new.
Another shop Pilot Knob Restoration. I can't remember what state they are located. Several obsolete mechanical parts have returned flawlessly restored & painted the correct color. In my experience, it has been obsolete parts for IH farm tractors. I think they do anything you challenge them with.
My cousin used to own a starter/alternator shop. He has a lot of obsolete part for starters, alternators and generators still in his garage. Along with parts for units up to about 2004. I take Ford starters to him. Gm and Ford alternators I just go get the parts and fix myself. Haven't had anything with a generator since the1959 Beetle back in 1976.
Can I rebuild a starter or alternator if I had the parts.........yes. Wayy back in the day it was feasible. Do I now.........NO. Being self employed, I cant beat the replacement cost (new) with my parts costs, labor, and machine down time. My customers would have a cow if they saw me even attempt it now days.
I sell new Generac generators. I sell not many, but am called upon to service far more. Most common failure is starter. It seems people try to get extra years from their battery, starter fails. Don't opt for battery & oil filter heaters, you get a starter failure. If I choose a new starter from Generac, average failure is four years later. I take it to the most trusted rebuilder I know, it i fixed permanently. I too often relate the starter in my farm tractor. Since 1987 I used Central Tractor rebuilt starters. I averaged two years life in the CT remans. By 1999 I took it to Arthur's I haven't had a failure since.
When the starter recently died my Case 580e I had an opportunity to use the replacement brushes I’d bought on eBay and try replacing the old brushes with new. Never having done this before, my first attempt was to use a Weller type soldering gun and some solder I had which is supposed to have some silver in it. This didn’t work so well, primarily because the soldering iron didn’t put out enough heat, the brush’s braided copper lead pulled off heat faster than the soldering gun could produce. Next I tried a mini jewelers propane/oxygen torch my friend has. This little torch put out lots of heat with a 1/4” inner flame. Along with that we used a silver solder in paste form. It took almost 3 hours to get the soldering right, but I finally learned the technique and got the four brushes firmly soldered in. A bench test seems to indicate success. Was it an efficient and cost effective use of time? Definitely not, but I had to try it for my own satisfaction. Should have taken pictures, forgot, sorry.