We have 40 acres of steep mountain side land at 6000 feet which is 2 miles from the entrance to the giant sequoia trees national park. Logging in the Sequoia National Forest was severely limited in 1988, so we have several old landings and logging roads overgrown with trees. I'm having a grand time clearing roads and landings with a cat 314E excavator, basically diesel enabled tree killing. Will widen roads and make some ditches, eventually make some roads myself. Not planning homes or upgrading the roads with road base, so will need to maintain roads every spring. I have a $50k budget to get something to grade and rough finish the roads. So, heart wants an old dozer, but head thinks a speedier, younger CTL with bucket or tractor with box scraper could do the job without a blade. Any advice?
two phases: Get the trees off all you want to civilize, and bring in heavy iron, either a rental or a contractor to make nice grade with good ditches. Then buy something and maintain those roads. If phase 1 is done right phase 2 can be handled by any of the above. I hesitate at "Old Dozer" though. Usually ends up broke down in the worst possible spot.
Younger CTLs have watched old machines and thought, l can do that. Being of a newer generation they require more than a MD to fix em, a shrink is also needed because of someone's use of pronouns.
I bought a dozer. It was then I understood the skill level needed to grade with a dozer. I find I can grade well with processed material, native soil with rocks, roots, etc, I find it difficult to smooth it out to the degree you can drive a car or lawnmower fast. My dozer is in my thumbnail picture. My friend Kenny has a near identical machine to mine, he lays an inch of processed topsoil on top of a roughed in lawn smooth as silk. He climbs on mine, grumbles the blade pivots aren't worn enough. Last I knew his had 27,000 on the hour meter. Kenny now added a large CTL to the fleet with a harley rake. That is a remarkable machine!
Road to my land is built up a couple feet higher than the land surrounding. Much of it is steep (10% grade). I find the dozer is great for shaping it, but I've tried a number of ways to perfect the surface. Short of expensive machines, I think a BIG tractor tire makes a great drag tool.
If I had Dan's playground of already build roads, landings, and switchbacks, this is how it would go. I can do pretty good work with a slick bucket on a 14 ton excavator. I would clear the trees and go way back on landings and switchbacks, making extra space. It would be driveable when I got done. Then I would get a contractor up there with skills like @JaredV or the other great blade guys and write a check. They would use that extra space at landings and switchbacks to carry junk away, and tune up the ditches and single pitch it for maximum drainage and minimum ruttage. Work it left and right and shorten up any water runs that eat into roads. I cannot do what they do and would rather have a pro set it up. Then I would get a nice tractor with an adjustable box and just keep it smooth. In XX years they would come back and I would write another check. Meanwhile I would be cutting brush back and keeping the space civilized, which is a full time job on a bunch of road like that.
Thank you all for the masterplan!!!
I have a little experience here. I live in West Virginia. Not as much elevation but steep we got in spades. I used to have an old Case 450 dozer. It was great, it would climb anything it seemed to me. The down side to it was that it had no brakes. I think these are noted for having crappy brakes. I tried to work on them but still not good. Then I got the bright idea to sell the dozer and buy a CTL. I bought a real nice 2014 Takeuchi TL230 with a cab and 400 hrs- a pre emission machine. That thing was horrible on hills and even generally not great in the woods. I have a machine shop and also figured it would be good with forks for rigging since it had pretty good weight capacity. Struck out there too. A skid steer or CTL is not good for rigging since you can't safely get in and out of it in any condition other than forks down on the ground. So if you have the itch to buy something I'd go for the dozer. I also have a Kubota L39. This is from a family of small TLB's that Kubota sells on their construction side (as opposed to agricultural). This machine has been one of the most versatile machines I have owned. It's very stout for a 7000lb machine, the backhoe is quite a bit heavier duty than the agricultural tractor attachments, It has a skid steer quick attach front bucket, and I have the extra hydraulics so it's good with a grapple. Also it comes with a 3pt hitch that can be pretty easily installed when the bachoe is removed.
A (steel) track loader is another good option. If it has the return-to-dig working makes it much easier to level area's since the bucket will always be set to level. It can be adjusted just where you want it too.
It sounds like a fun space there. I thought about it some more, and would get my own decent blade. If you want roads that is it, the one tool. You could split your budget for a tractor loader and a blade and have some fixing money left. But I always wanted a blade and could never justify it. This one splits the budget nicely. Kinda old ish but not an old cat 12 champion 715 This one with snow wings and AWD wants the whole budget https://spokane.craigslist.org/hvo/d/colville-champion-road-grader/7896787283.html this one wants some money from the neighbor too. https://greatfalls.craigslist.org/hvo/d/conrad-2008-volvo-970-road-grader/7874441682.html
If you want the best bang for the buck in an older grader, Champion/Volvo is usually the best bet. A $40K Volvo would be about a $75-80K Cat or $70K JD. Don't think you want an old mechanical Cat. If you go Champion get one preferably with a Cummins engine and 8400 transmission (1984 on) Later 80's had improved clutch material but most earlier machines have had the clutches worked on and upgraded. According to Cutting edge on here Volvo's like to throw codes. Still good graders though. I bought an 86 Champion 730A (articulated) for $15Kcad. Had to put rear tires on it and a couple thousand fixing the clutch slave cylinder but it runs like a top with a Cummins 8.3. Found a ripper for under $1000. Very quiet to operate unlike older models with a 6-71. A $40-$50K Champion should be in pretty good shape and not need much work done to it.
Agree - A nice 953C can be had in the $50K range and fits the bill of a machine that can clear and grade.
Here is a relatively open patch of cut/fill logging road leading up the side of the hillside to a landing about 300 yards ahead. A lot of accumulated organics to remove. Dad had a dozer for clearing a neighborhood development out of the woods, so may save my pennies. ATVs, dirtbikes and feet are the likely users, maybe 4x4 trucks.
It is incredible how quickly it grows back. I worked a firewood landing in 1980. You can only make out the road I built by a subtle change in the overstory. It is totally closed off with windfall now.
your excavator?
Your excavator and a chainsaw might be all you need.
How much road do you have? We do a lot of what you're doing, though we are prepping the roads for logging which usually includes adding rock. Depending on the situation, we'll use a dozer, excavator or grader or a combination or all three if it's a big enough job, but the excavator is the main tool. Often the roads haven't been used since the last time it was logged and they're covered in 40 years of organic matter. The excavator is the most versatile but can be the slowest if you're mostly cleaning the road surface off. With a tilting bucket you can put in a nice V-ditch in a narrow right of way and not cut the crown off if you're scraping junk off the road. Or if you can turn the bucket around backward you can do a lot of ditching with a 5' smooth bucket working 90 degrees to the road but it's not as fast. But bucket shape is important if you go the tilting route. I can expand later if you wish. The dozer will ditch and scrape though it's not as fast or clean as a grader but will work in wet conditions. The grader will ditch, scrape and grade the fastest but is limited by ground conditions and can't do a lot about brush unless it's growing close to the road. If you don't have a bank to blow the material over, then you're in for a lot of tedious pushing it down the road or ditch until you do in which case the excavator shines. If the road is overgrown, then the excavator is the ticket. I'd say unless you are building roads you don't really need the dozer and since you already have an excavator, get a tilting bucket first if you have a circuit to run it. Then get a grader, preferably articulating if you feel you need something more. Even if you are building roads, you can do a lot with your excavator alone and if you have a grader, you can finish it off with it. This summer I built some spurs with a Cat 143H grader because the D6N that was supposed to go to the job was down for repair longer than expected. The excavator, a Cat 316, dug the stumps, cleared the right of way and put in a few of the culverts before he had to move on to the next job and then I cut in the grades down a sidehill. One I had to fill the bottom of the hill to get it down to 15% which would have been faster with the D6 but I got it done. I crowned the subgrade, sloped the banks and cut in the ditches. Then I had to bring a backhoe to put in one culvert that had to wait until the grade was finished. I'm kicking myself for not getting any pictures because it turned out really nice! Anyways, the upshot is you can get the job done with whatever you end up buying, just might have to approach it differently. Hopefully this gives you something to chew on.
I should add if you get a dozer, get one with a 6 way blade if you want to ditch and roll material off the road without lots of turning. If you get a grader, get one that can shift the saddle. It greatly increases the versatility for ditching, sloping banks and pushing stuff farther off the road. If you have sharper corners, articulation is really nice especially for ditching.
The solution I would suggest would be the Case DL550 Minitour. I love ours. You wont find one for 50K though. https://www.casece.com/en-us/northamerica/products/minotaur-dl550-compact-dozer-loader
Thank you all. I looked but could not find an excavator with a blade. I am looking for a used clean out bucket, so interested in shape and tilt. I don't think we have a lot of roads, but in 3 years we have only scouted about 1/3 of the 40 acres. Most of the rest is steeper going up to the ridge and very overgrown. We could make the cabin bathroom functional, but that would bring in more women of the family who are letting us use this as a weekend adventure. This is a playground that lets us do something physical for therapy from our sit-down jobs. We've got 5 boys in their 30s and my biggest problem is not getting much excavator seat time so they can, hence the thought to buy a dozer to spread the seat time love. The kind of problem you want to have. Bonding with diesel.
A Deere 450C is a nice size machine. Small enough to move easily, and thrifty on fuel, big enough to do real work. A track loader with a 4 in 1 bucket will do most of the work you need. Kind of a Swiss Army Knife. OK at almost everything, perfect at little. I have one with a regular bucket and a backhoe attachment and love it. Since you have an excavator, if you can get one with the 4 in 1 and a set of rippers it should work well for you.
I love track loaders and have put in many miles of logging road in steep country with 953s and 963s and cleaned up and reopened many miles as well. I personally prefer a track loader to a dozer or excavator for a project like this. As already mentioned they are a jack of all trades machine. However, since you already have a nice little excavator with a thumb I'd suggest getting a good, used, large frame CTL such as a Cat 299, Kubota SVL 97, or similar to work together with the 314. You can add any number of attachments to the CTL that you won't get for a dozer.
For a tilting bucket, you need to have a good amount of angle between the bottom of the bucket and the tilt axis so when it's tilted, you can grade the backslope in close to the machine when working parallel to the ditch. Most are already set up that way but I ran one that was fairly flat and you had to work at arm's reach on the backslope. I've also seen a DNR Cat 316 with a 3' tooth bucket on a Helac powertilt cleaning V-ditches. It could also handle trees, stumps and rocks better than a smooth bucket so he didn't have to take time to switch buckets, but the thumb has to be long enough for that. It worked pretty well but it would be slower when sloping taller banks. The Helac power tilts are pretty nice because they tilt like 80 degrees each way but are more expensive.
We used a well work 80s 750 Deere for building skid roads and landings. I tried doing dozer work once with 648D skidder... yeah.... maybe someone can, but not me!
My vote is for a small dozer with a 6-way blade. If you're working in the woods finding one with a winch would be a bonus. I have about 8mi of logging roads and trails on one of our farms, a lot of it is steep mountain land. Whether I'm building or maintaining trails the dozer and excavator are my tools of choice. I also put in a lot of new driveways, farm roads, logging roads, etc in steep terrain for my customers. I have a CTL as well, but it's mainly only used for final touch ups or moving gravel or topsoil around on road building jobs. If I were in you're shoes I'd spend $30-40K on a decent used 6-way blade dozer ('80-90s vintage, JD450/D3-D4C sized) and the rest on a farm tractor. Along with your excavator that combo should do about anything you need for building and maintaining your property.
I'm with the dozer and 6 way blade, camp. I have both cat299 and Komatsu d31. While the 299 is very versatile with the proper attatchments, they require a lot of maintenance which as far as part wise, can get expensive as well as downtime. My dozer I bought used 20+ years ago, it just keeps going and easy to work on by yourself. You can get a 6way blade for the CTL but from what I've read, like most things with CTL's... jack of all trades, master of none. Even with the Cat suspension, they beat you to death on any thing but smooth surface I have excavator, dozer, tractors and CTL, I will try and use all the others before I have to climb in the CTL
And as MG84 noted, farm tractor. A good 4 wheel drive with shuttle transmission and loader. A land plane on back, does a great job in keeping roads/drives smooth, a hellofa lot faster than either the CTL or dozer
Some good points here although I'm not sure I agree with everything. Based solely on my experience I doubt that you'll spend less maintaining a dozer than a CTL per hour of use unless, 1. the CTL is abused and neglected or, 2. the maintenance on the dozer is being neglected. If so you'll be making up for that savings with an unexpectedly large repair bill at some point. Others experience may be different. As far as a CTL beating the operator to death, I'd be really slow to blame the machine for that. The attachments I was thinking of would be more for property maintenance after the road clearing is done, such as a brush hog, Harley rake, grapple, log splitter, etc, etc. The list of attachments useful for maintaining a property is nearly endless. Based on the OP's use case it's probable a dozer would spend most of the time in the shed after the clearing is done. I certainly wouldn't recommend trying to create or clear logging roads with a 6 way blade on a CTL but it will definitely work well in tandem with the small excavator being used. I like the idea of a front wheel assist farm tractor and blade too. This is also a multi use machine that will continue paying for itself after the clearing is done and like the CTL other attachments can be added as need requires and finances allow. These are my opinions only and they're worth what you've paid for them plus whatever use you make of them. Whichever way you decide to go please update us and let us know how it's going.
From my experiences the maintenance on a small dozer is going to be cheaper than a CTL. First off buy a dozer in decent shape with good undercarriage, or factor in the cost of new undercarriage right off the bat when you purchase. Dozer undercarriage isn't cheap but you should get a few thousand hours out of it, in normal conditions with a decent operator. Due to their low hours of use many landowners types they will never have to touch the undercarriage. If the conditions are harsh, the operator is heavy handed or not careful, the dozer will hold up a lot better than a CTL. On a CTL one careless move and you can ruin a rubber track, get crap in the hyd system and you'll roach a drive motor, etc. In my experience dozers are just all around a lot more rugged long lasting machines. All that said, even with a good careful operator on both I still think the CTL is more expensive to run. Hyd oil and filter changes are on a lot shorter intervals, as are final drives, and tracks last at best 1/2 as long, but more realistically 1/3 to 1/4 as long. The other thing I think people fail to factor in, on CTLs many people buy the absolute cheapest made in China crap tracks and undercarriage parts for replacements which is giving a false sense of economy. As for the ride, any of the modern CTLs with a good suspension seat seem to ride pretty good. I have a Kubota SVL65-2 and it rides quite well. A lot better than a wheeled skid steer at least. I did operate an older Gehl CTL years ago with a solid mounted seat and it was brutal, every rock, bump etc went straight up your spine. My list of attachments for my CTL and skid steer are fairly short and mostly consist of 'loader type' attachments (buckets, forks, grapple, bale spear). I do have an auger and post driver that work well on the SS/CTL. I'm personally not a fan of mowers, mulchers, tillers, harley rakes etc on a CTL. I think they just work a lot better being PTO powered on the back of a tractor and you aren't eating dust and debris all day with the attachment behind you. If we are talking overall usefulness and hours put on the machine the CTL wins, but there are certain tasks the dozer just excels at. I do use my dozer for more than just moving dirt, clearing and pioneering, in fact I use it for quite a bit of drawbar work. It in the winter it's kept busying in the woods pulling a log trailer and soon I hope to also get a pull type log arch. For dirt work I use it to pull a sheepsfoot roller if the terrain isn't suitable to pull it with a tractor. Also I plan to add a set of rear remote hydraulics so I can pull an offset disc and pull type scraper. The other thing is no one is shackled to a machine forever. The OP may want to buy (or rent) a dozer to get the bulk of his heavy work done, then sell it and buy a CTL.
I haven't owned a CTL but have a lot of experience with rubber tracks...and would make a comment (observation) in regards to rubber tracks. Especially for 'offroad' clearing use; really easy to slice/cut a perfectly good or even brand new track ($$) We used a Kubota KX-040 for several years, bought brand new (40h demo). I was the only operator; bucket turns/large radius multi-point turns...and yet this machine still acquired a fair number of large slices to the tracks. Granted, some of the areas we work have outcrops of shale/argillite... I would vote for a small dozer! Sweeps, caging; brush/tree work can be dangerous. Small rippers (if you have a need)/winch on back for balance. Our ('large' dozer) in 13 years has shown no noticeable wear in the Berco chains/rails (used perhaps 100 hours/years). I sure don't have to worry about sharp edged stumps, or slash damaging the tracks! Good luck in your decision!