BIL Called last night, I am still laughing!! Seems the Electric Utility I used to work for busted their hump and got all seven of Metro Transportations Bus District Site yards equipped with recharging sub stations so can have the four showcase Electrics at any of them. Took close to four months, and each has a Separate, Dedicated Recharging Station for Four Buses so all seven sites can now receive four buses. Minimum site size is 20 buses, the max at Main Garage is 60 where at 4-6 hours for a recharge depending on discharge level they would have to add several recharger substations to each yard to add More. Cannot force feed the batteries too hard as overheat and auto-secure the charging system, too slow is not a issue. Best calculations is at max ridership(50% occupancy) the recovered money fails to cover bus expenses and recharge costs to a factor of Four, would have to raise rates by five times what are now(Impractical) or receive State Subsidy to cover the expenses. Great Day for METRO STL!!!
The whole idea of electric vehicles is leftist pap. It merely shifts the pollution to a remote power plant where it smokes up somebody else's air. Then when there's a big freeze and the power fails, you can't go anywhere either. We keep 1000 gal of diesel on site for machines and pickups. 250 gallons of propane for the house. When another freeze hit, trendies in Teslas and electric buses will be the ones on Fakebook begging for blankets and firewood.
Makes me think that the old style overhead trolley may have been a better option?
Bicycles work well too.
The one thing that is really taking form {some say it will take years} is automatous trucks. The driver shortage is the driving force. I install Samsara gps trackers on our trailers, was talking with a IT person this week about about the latest versions. The conversation shifted towards driverless trucks. From what I gathered there is a pile of money behind the development. And by the way he talked it's a bunch closer than anyone thinks. Mainly OTR trucks and business class. Will be able to track 1/4 mile in advance in the densest fog and pace the speed of vehicle ahead and that's only one advantage. The owner has even said he will buy the first ten just to get rid of the human aspect and dealing with drivers.
Sad day when that happens.
After dealing with the public and truck drivers for 80% of my years in the business and having to listen to their whiney ***'s, ego driven know it all personalities. The industry did it to it's self in the last 30 years, very slowly but did it on it's own.
There will be endless resistance and litigation that will bloody the investors. A trendy fool who fell asleep in his Tesla which then runs smack into a wall or line of cars only kills a couple people, maybe. A self driving truck empty or loaded will kill a whole troop of boy skirts and their moms, likely in a chain collision. And ambulance chasers will be all over that event like stink on poop, billion dollar injury lawsuits in a heartbeat. Then there will be human resistance. Sabotage. Truck drivers won't sit by idly and let robots take their jobs. You don't need a crystal ball to see this dreamy future will turn sour.
I think that is mostly BS. And people who would sabotage should be prosecuted to the fullest extent. People just hate change, it's inherent.
Self driving HE is already and been for some time in service in places not good for humans, trucks are a next alternate at least point A to point B terminal to terminal but are less likely to be into direct delivery vehicles, or for small LTL deliveries where a driver is required to offload or locate for offload the articles shipped. Comes down to small operations will most likely have need of drivers where receive random loads or deliver at random points only and the remainder would be smaller trucks for spot delivery by drivers to specific end users as myself. Cannot see crushed stone loads delivered to JQ Public in a driverless machine backing down a mud driveway while tailgating the load set by chained gate dimension of a unmanned machine, or pouring a foundation or even a patio directed by a finisher of a mixer truck. Cranes cannot be unmanned as to working among iron workers or carpenters.
Like I said OTR and business class-there will always be a need for drivers in construction and the like.
So what type of battery do these electric buses have Li-Poly, Ni-Cad, LiFePO4 or other?
I’m a truck driver and have been around it my entire life my mom drove and my dad drove. I can see it coming and with all the waiting in docks and traffic I can see it being beneficial they won’t be sitting there with a clock running out and hoping you still have hours to make it to your next stop . I run auto parts for new cars and we have some fairly tight delivery windows if we run out of hrs and don’t make a delivery it can shut down an entire plant since they no longer keep an inventory of parts at the plants
NMC(Lithium Nickel Manganese Cobalt) battery in the New Flyer series, Cummins Battery Electric System (Proprietary) in the Gillig Version. 50-80 miles per charge New Flyer, 150 mile on the Gillig. BIL stated the charging stations manage to place the buses at 90-95% overnight and close to 100%(charging slows as capacity is met) over a weekend. Usage is 3-6 hours for a shift, regen systems aboard work to keep batteries at above 60% capacity as dropping below that Amperage increases with lowering voltage as well heating with cell degradation factors. Electric Buses - metrostlouis.org | Metro Transit – St. Louis He did state the routine connection amperage for the charging station PER BUS was an initial 2000 amps.
Very short lifespan on those batteries, they are asking to be ripped off with poor quality. Don't let them get over 410 degrees Fahrenheit on charging or it's going to be a marshmallow roast. Charging rate slows as it gets full cause it starts off with Bulk which is where most comes in, Absorb with brings it down to absorb more thoroughly what is coming in and last state is Float. Same thing my solar system does, so I'm familiar with EV's and everything in how they work. Better if they didn't let them get below 80% though can get them down to 20% without significant damage (don't try this with lead acid based batteries). Bet they will work great as a second-life battery for small solar systems. I can see it now as more EV's die I will get more cheaper options for batteries for my system. Right now a 5 year old forklift battery is useless to a forklift but can last for me another 10 years on my solar system. Paid $1500 for that used battery that cost around $10,000 new.
The Surge amps was what required the Separate DEDICATED Substation for the bus chargers. Utility did notify the Metro they would not be able to install more than one station per garage without upgrading Transmission feeds to these service sector Distribution Stations. So one four bus charger is all they will have for some time, thoughts are to have 8-12 buses, rotating Days/Evenings with spares on standby awaiting charger slots.
Battery powered vehicles are a Novelty. I own a battery powered golf cart for chores on my acreage, it works great but not for long rides.
That's considered the bulk stage, the initial (surge). The 4th stage doesn't happen all the time only when the BMS (Battery management system) sees it's needed on Lithium batteries. On lead acid batteries a equalization every 30 days helps keep the battery balanced and prevents sulfation.
Been looking at long discharge rate storage cells, seems 90% are old school technology with the remainder similar to these technologic marvels of wizardry and apparently hazardous to use low life schedule. Any insights as to other options spud?
Yes Panasonic is going in right direction with their tech a 4680 battery which exceeds the current 2170 cells they use currently that replaced the 18650's in EV's. It packs 9000 mAh per cell and uses raw silicone as new anode for NCA battery (nickel-cobalt-aluminum) which will give about a 16% increase in their range, not much but adds up over time. In the mean time if the geniuses that is running the buses in your area had any sense of electricity they wouldn't need as much power as they are running right now. Don't know the schedule of all the buses or how many buses the area is running but instead of just sucking on the all electric bus tit they should integrate the other buses that run on natural gas/diesel and rotate them on use as they aren't more than so many on bulk charge. When one or so many comes off bulk charge to absorb have other bus(es) get start charging, try to start charging so many buses at once.
Metro tried NG buses, not such a good result, runs too dry, cooks valves piston crowns etc, fuel systems were infinitely cranky, took over eight hours to dribble in CNG as would static charge Everything, until got a improved system then was down to four hours each bus to refuel and the engines were hungry on the low btu fuel. Primary fleet is diesel no thoughts currently of hybrids. May end up back to catenary system all electrics eventually.
UPS PTI and a few other trucking companies I am seeing are using CNG storage and NG Engines where I would not want to drive one of these. Fuel Storage cell is attached to back wall of cab or on supports directly behind cab on many of these. UPS has them Saddle Mounted and as I have been told require refilling at Every Depot Dock as they use so much.
I don't work in EV but in off grid power which has some similar components. Every month some new battery company comes out with some new lithium product or changes ownership and design. Every new product lasts 20+ years they say and is ever better and safer and you will never have problems. Never mind the product is brand new and has not stood the test of time, the line is always, "trust us." I stick with what I know works and has always worked for my customers. No guinea pigs up here.
Which is why I have a 3780 lb "lead acid" forklift battery powering this place up. No one is speaking of dendrites in lithium, thermal runaways, or what happens when you charge a lithium below 32 degrees. Lithium is great no matter what you add to it in laboratory settings, but when you start factoring real world factors of extreme environments, vibration, lack of experience personnel, or any critters can get to any parts you got a disaster waiting. Think of it this way, some the wires in a BMS system that determine a batteries fate of how much charge it should get are only around 18 gauge.
I also endorse fork lift style batteries for anyone needing a new battery bank, first choice. I tell them, for the cost difference you could pay us to come water the batteries monthly rather than buy fancy and fragile high performance lithium. Though I do like lithium batteries better than sealed lead acid for a number of reasons, if they absolutely must be maintenance free. Light weight means nothing in a shed where we only move the batteries once in 10 or 15 years.
I'm yet to see a government electric vehicle project like that wasn't a boondoggle. But it felt good force spending your hard earned money on dumb **** we can say is green right?
I can think of several drivers immediately I'd like to see replaced with a roomba truck lol.
We have 65 drivers and out of that 65 we had one female driver who retired. She had the best safety record of the lot. She had no ego, never tried to prove her self. We have a place that we haul out of that is a real pain to back into. From what I understand she could back up there as easy as pie. Her truck was always very clean inside and out. She could chain up at the drop of a hat. Paper work was spot on. She was always polite do deal with. She was and is one of the best drivers I've run across in my years.
About the only way I could see the driverless trucks working would be having dedicated roads for them keeping them separated from cars. Watching a news cast about truck driver shortage and the women they were interviewing was well versed in the current problems and when asked about automatous trucks she said we almost have that now they are called trains. Bob
Has a sincere point. Was a article on MSN of Battery Electric Trains, just Why? Have had and can return to catenary systems where no need for batteries or ‘innovative’ charging systems for limited range machines, just feed them direct power. Milwaukee Road and the NYCentral did it half a century ago.
Seattle still runs electric busses. The wires are still overhead and the rods run up to make contact. For the inner city, I've seen nothing work better. As far as batteries go, you are never going to get a better power system than diesel. All this money is being wasted on futile attempts to convince the public that a battery of any kind can supply the power to move large amounts of weight over long distances is the future of mankind.
Catenary systems are the simplest
Can see a lot of freight disappearing as the goon squads figure out No Driver to stop them.
Cameras. Those are everywhere.
Takes time to send the cops that do not exist and catch the perps, driverless tugs are a easy mark.
They would have to wreck it. The truck is not going to stop there is no human element of life in danger. Plus it could be armed with spray nozzles that contain dye. Bright purple dye, or slimy bacon fat containing skunk ****. Don't need guns or any of those things for protection. There are ton's of ways to keep people at bay.
They've been tricking those DOE trailers out for years with cool booby traps, shouldn't have to do any prototyping.
Sometimes I can't always agree with everything. If that were the case then people wouldn't be still robbing banks that have exploding dye packs, sequentially numbered bills, man traps that lock one between interior and exterior doors, long prison sentences, higher teller booth barriers that are harder to jump over or not at all, armed guards, GPS tracking devices in money bags and cameras. Yet they still keep coming...
Criminals are stupid people. Criminal element will always be there. But it is the least of the worries with these trucks.