Yair...over on the dozer thread I commented that I find it surprising that Cat. would introduce an electric/electronic component to such a simple mechanism as the brake system of a little D5 tractor. I realize that lots of folks on this board will never have operated machinery without pilot/air over or electric over controls. As a '60's/'70's era dozer and scraper hand who has never used such gismos I wonder if any of you folks have any comments as to how these hi-tech systems stack up in the real world? Is the added complexity worth the few extra cycles an hour on (say) a twenty ton excavator and, really, how can electric assisted or controlled brakes be an advantage on a dozer? To me all this stuff adds a layer of complexity to what really were basic hydraulic and mechanical systems...a good man with a flow and preasure kit could find most problems...we didn't need a lap top. It seems to me that the availability of the present era machines will degrade quicker than the older rigs because of fatigue and rubbing and moisture getting into the electrics...with these machines still be making a dollar in thirty years time? Just asking...and all the best for the Season. Cheers.
Wow, where to start Scrub Puller... An Interesting point and the subject of great debate between diesel fitters for years. I'm suprised there hasn't been lots of replies to this one already, I'm sure there are many different opinions out there regarding this issue! I've been around long enough to have worked on both non electronic equipment, and equipment with so much electronics it's mind boggling. But hey, they say it's the way of the future... Like everything, there are pro's and con's. obviously the biggest Pro with the old gear was NO electronics, which made the machine a simple mechanical/hydraulic set up, and you could fix them with a set of tools and some hydraulic guages. Anybody with half a brain and the service manual could have a go and fix it. The newer gear, well now you need laptops, programs, downloads, readers, cards, dongles... the list goes on. having worked on large mining diggers and shovels for many years, electronics has made them alot more operator friendly, smoother to operate, more precise controls and economical to run. Alot has been focused on operator comfort. Look at Cat dozers, say an N series versus T. Big levers in the N, and in the T, the operator has toggles where they can steer the thing with 1 finger. (though I have seen an incident report where an operator had a strain from operating steering toggles on T series dozer). Nothing a good cup of concrete wouldn't fix, harden the **** up. I was in Antarctica where we had a D7G, with a manual trans and dog clutch. The thing had whopping great big levers in it everywhere, and you know what? It was fun to drive! The thing had character, and it hardly ever had a problem. I just about sh*t out a kidney every time I had to engage the clutch, hanging off that lever like a fat kid trying to do a chin up! Listen to the 2 way on any mine site now, and all the calls to maint start with "I got this alarm coming up.." All the fitters now have to be electronics experts as well. To answer the question is it worth it, I really don't know! I do know that all these electronics is expensive, try frying an ECM and buying a new one. All these electronics cost alot of money, and most of the time you'll need the OEM to reprogram something, or calibrate a sensor, there's more labour on top. Anyway I could go on and on, but I don't have time! Maybe we'll here many other views on the subject, it should make for interseting reading!
Ah ... The future is here .. I love it .. New D11T .. Forget about it .. Burns allot less fuel than a D11N .. The operator isnt like a bag of hammers after 12hr shift .. makes Diagnostics much much better and efficent .. It makes me laugh when I hear about Old equipment still running today .. Yeah because the company constantly throws money at it ..
Yep the good old Fuel Burn, Most companies monitor fuel burn closely, which is where electronics excels. When you have a fleet of a hundred trucks, and you can get an engine with 20l/hr less fuel burn than a competitor's engine... Thats a huge saving in a year!
Yeah I was forced to do them when working for OEM ... Like you said .. Huge savings anually .. Also an operator thats fresh is more productive than a beaten around OP with sore wrists .. The first real fly by wire I encountered is the M graders that have been slated from wall to wall since there introduction. Now they run like clockwork .. Rome wasnt built in a day but I can see the walls getting higher .. I can see a 16M lasting 30yr easy .. IF you throw enough money at it .. ECMs frying .. Yeah i know a trick to fry them with a paper clip .. They shouldnt fail as they are solid state .. All ECM's that failed before 10'000 always got warranty or atleast policy. Dont get me started about the latest line of AC shovels ..
Yair...thanks for reply's fellers. As Zed mentioned I thought this thread may have generated a bit more traffic. It's an interesting subject and there's at least one bloke around with a Kobelco excavator who would happily trade it for a mechanical unit...he reckons it very nearly put him out of business. And this was doing subdivision work in a major coastal town. What a lot of folks don't realise is the remote areas machines can get into in some parts of the world...It's a bit hard to get a Cat. technician to come and sort out a relitivly new D6 when your clearing fence lines around a sixty thousand acre goat farm three hundred miles from town. Cheers.
Hi All, An interesting topic but surprisingly not many replies. I am new to this forum. My background is software engineer but I have interest and some experience with heavy equipment protocols or data links. To understand the benefits, it may be better to look into a bigger picture - heavy equipment monitoring system. Most manufacturers have their own monitoring system. - Komatsu: Komtrax and VHMS - Caterpillar: Vision Link and VIMS - Hitachi: ZXLink and MIC - Volvo: CareTrack - John Deere: JDLink The monitoring system consists of a monitoring device - a small computer fitted with GPS, memory, serial connection, GSM or Satellite for data transmission. This device reads the heavy equipment data directly from the Electronic Control Module (ECM), processed the data and transferred it to data center for further analysis. As Zed and Ross mentioned, the system is used to reduce operating and maintenance costs especially when dealing with hundreds equipment. It is also used to improve efficiency by monitoring working hours versus idle hours. General monitoring system will provide information about engine hour, fuel consumption, diagnostic trouble codes, geo fence, location, engine lock, PTO time, etc. The VHMS, VIMS and MIC are high end monitoring system for mining equipment. They provide additional analysis such data trends, distribution, TPMS, cycle time, payload, etc. These information can be used to analyze equipment usage, mining track location and prognostics. For example: - brake usage and habit: retarder versus service brake, brake pressure distribution with brake time and distance - RPM distribution - to find out how engine is being operated - how much time spent on high RPM which can potentially damage the engine The system benefits both owners and manufacturers. In my opinion, the manufacturers are using the system for value added service, increase maintenance contracts, increase profit, increase spare parts sales and most important to gather real data for future product improvements. These electrics have been tested to meet requirements for dust, shock, temperature, ESD, humidity, water pressure, etc. Here is a link to previous thread about telematic monitoring system. HeavyEquipmentForums Hope this helps and just my opinion .
The electronics on diesels engines were mandated by pollution regulations. It wasn't possible to clean them up any other way. I can accept that very easily. However the introduction of electronics into transmission and hydraulic controls in my opinion hasn't really justified the claimed savings, especially in small to mid sized machines. Who can set up shift modulations on a dozer without the lap top and software? Who can troubleshoot the loader controls without plugging in. If your engine has a heating problem, how are you going to tell if the fan is turning fast enough? I wouldn't have a problem with any of this if the manufacturer put the diagnostics and the adjustments in the machine instead of a lap top. But that really is the point, isn't it. Build complication into the system and then limit who has access to the tools to maintain it. The only other reason for all the computerizing of machines is to eliminate the operator completely in the not too distant future. Three shifts of work with no lunch or breaks, no state industrial insurance or retirement benefits, no vacation days to fill with someone else and no whining operators to listen to or worry about vandalism should they not like something a supervisor said or did. Just a machine operating at maximum efficiency all the time.
the machine discussed in the thread you made that comment on was a D5G. It is hydrostatic drive and has no service brakes and requires no brakes to operate . What could be simpler? For legal and testing purposes, it has spring applied, oil pressure released parking brakes between the drive motors and final drives. They are electrically operated, and the single solenoid valve and hose is much simpler than any type of mechanical brake linkage or levers. It never needs servicing. It has nothing to do with machine efficiency or performance. They're really just there to keep the machine from rolling off the float trailer. If they wore out (which can never really happen), I can't imagine how anyone would ever notice as the hydrostatic drive provides all the braking the machine needs. As someone who has done their fair share of band brakes on old Cat dozers, I have to say these new machines are a step in the right direction.
Yair...gotcha WhyWhyZed, I did'nt realise The little Cat was Hydrostatic. The points that John C. mentions are the ones that I would find it difficult to live with. Getting back to the hydrostatic dozers how big do they go these days and how do they perform compared to power-shift? I could imagine if some component failed there could be some large scale contamination which could be quite expensive...one advantage I see in the electric drive of the D7e. Any comments/ Cheers.
D5 oval track is the largest Cat goes with hydrostatic. Good point about contamination. Lots of filtration, but still not as prudent a design as Deere. Deere keeps implement hydraulic oil in a separate reservoir. Cat combines hydrostatic and implement oil which increases possibilities of cross contamination.
You will never hear me say "I have a computer problem on my 250c" lol.
I knew this old guy who had an International tipper, and I rebuilt the 8V92 (mechanical) engine in it for him. He used it for hauling ashphalt for a road paver. I was talking to him about the truck, and how there wasn't many old trucks still working on a daily basis like his. He told me on the last big road job he did, there were many new trucks, and his was the oldest one on the job by far. One of the bosses for the job told him at the end, that his was the only truck that turned up every day, and never broke down once. He was proud as punch with that old truck, and it made him good money because he'd paid it off many years ago.
D6k is a hydrostat, although its not very big; around 13t. Hydrostat dozer powertrains are much the same as the C series track loaders so they feel similar to drive, which reminds me, the 973 is also hydrostatic and weighs in about 28t.
First off: Good Post Komcat, Iam dealing with Komatsu systems at the moment .. The only decent user friendly system is CAT IMO. Again .. a Good point BUT ... If you blew a hydraulic hose your down .. With an electrical problem all you need is a code list, schematic and a deutch kit .. I've found most sensors on CAT equipment are the same .. Temp sensors for instance can be found through out the machine ... Carry one maybe? Majority of the time electrical faults are a harness problem. John: The electronics aid the OP .. They also add to the efficeny of the unit .. Meaning more production that adds up over a year .. When I first started out you could still find Pilot operated excvators .. Now they are all fully electronic control .. I've never heard any complaints yet?
Yair...the original premise of this thread was to pose the question as to how much more productive the new machines are. Some constructive traffic is building on this thread. It would be interesting to see an availability analysis of the electronic (say) Cat. machines versus the old...I cannot imagine anything simpler or more bullet proof in the 'dozer line than a nine G or an eight H...and to flog my old horse about operating techniques...from what I see around here I believe good operator on one of the old girls could pretty much be as productive as the average bloke on the equivalent(ish) new rig. As John C. says though on an hour by hour basis the new machines will burn less fuel. At the end of the day it's all academic. Continueing layers of complexity will be built into machines whether it's justified or not. Incidently, I am not having a go at operators. Most of the ones I watch trundling right to the back of the coal heap every push, or not knowing the significance of the little puff of dust coming out of the ground while he's ripping, or the bloke trying to push a tree from the wrong side...all these blokes are probably quite competent operators, they just need a bit of guidance...and learn not to climb up on their high-horse if its given. Cheers.
One positive thing with electronic transmissions is the clutches are controlled by the ecm and variable solenoids. This means they are shifting as efficiently as possibly without causing wear. The clutches are also tuned so as they wear the ECM will make up for it. This means better life from the transmission. Troubleshooting with electronics is easier in my opinion.
The operator advantages are great for some finger tip controls with living room comfort it checks all of it's own fluid levels low fuel consumption the dirtiest part of the job is a little bit of mud on the bottom of your shoes and that's if you park in a bad spot. However, I'm neither a operator nor a owner. I'm a two day a week mechanic who is trying to learn how to maintain multiple equipment brands without calling the dealer for field service. The days of semi-skilled may be over for all of us. That's why I joined this group to improve myself.
Lee, I've heard that from several dealer wrenches in the last year and a half but I'll have to see some time on those units before changing my opinion. I know you have a good deal of time on the business end of the wrench so please don't be offended. I followed a fleet of WA600 Komatsu log loaders with all getting 40,000 hours or more without taking the trannys from the machines. I've seen several Wagner log stackers with Clark and Twin Disc units hit 15,000 hours and only replace bearings and seals. I've also pulled several 46A boxes at 20,000 hours for bearings and seals. Those units all had one thing in common. They were religiously maintained. I'll acknowledge that the brainiacs reduce stupid operator syndrome but so far from my experience I can save far more money on manual controls and proper maintenance than the software generators will ever be able to justify with the added cost of all that copper. I've seen $3,000 in labor charges for troubleshooting an electric shift with no success by some pretty competent people only to find a harness worn through behind the cab or a blown diode hidden behind some sheet metal. I've had artics blow the converter input shafts out of the transmissions because the lockups and transmission shift points were incorrectly programmed. In another thread I talked about transmission harnesses in smaller Komatsu loaders with the author scratching his head and getting sucked into the continuing down time hole. Even today I run into hard shifting dozers and loaders where only the dealer has access to adjust the modulation because of software. I hope you are right and they will prove out over time. I won't hold my breath.
John I have seen an Allison transmission replaced because of an incorrect diagnosis. the diagnosis itself took days, tranny replacement another day, then it had the exact same fault. Eventually i got involved and found a terminal had pulled out of plug because there was too much tension on harness when the cab was raised. Repaired plug, re routed harness so it wouldn't occur again, and problem solved. there are opinions out there that its a waste of money keeping old machines running, but theres no reason a machine cant achieve tens of thousands of hours. Sure you're going to be constantly maintaining the machine, but thats where your budgeting, accounting and planning comes in. We can't escape the future though, electronics is here in a huge way. It would be nice, however, if all the OEM's would provide any necessary electronic tooling/software/hardware free to the customer. But they won't... because then you NEED them. Bucyrus (Cat) new CAMP system on the Hyd excavator RH-series seems great, touch screen windows based control, with diagnosis, schematics, part and service manual available at the touch of a finger tip.
I'm surprised there isn't more comments here. Maybe people like the electronics more than I do. Almost every owner operator I ask would swear at electronics on machine. When the machine runs but won't move for some unknown reason, it gets pretty frustrating. And if the dealer isn't really experienced as solving weird problems, the machine can sit for months. On the plus side, its certainly true that without the electronics the machines won't do all the the things we have gotten used to. Machines that navigate themselves comes to mind. CaseIH builds a line of farm tractors called a "Magnum". The line has been in production since the early 90's i think. Back then they were all mechanical trannys, engines, hydraulics. And they were steadfastly reliable. But since then they have morphed into an all electronic machine, and reliability has suffered. It's dramatic enough that the value of the old series is holding or appreciating on the used market. Assuming the line has improved since 2000 till now, i would say the line suffered from poor design when the electronics first came to market. I would hope they're better now. My 07 tractor sets codes often, and the only thing you can do is have the dealer out. Rarely is it a problem with something they can sense. More often it is a problem with the sensing system itself. For example, a pressure sensor might trip a code. The cause is not the pressure, but the sensor plug, or cable. Same thing with my 07 Volvo excavator. Reading this thread, that is a common experience. So i would say that in order for electronics to add reliability to a machine, the electronics have to be at least as reliable as the systems they are put on. Engines, transmissions, hydraulics, have become very reliable over the last hundred years. Hopefully the electrics don't take that long.
I wonder what they said in the '20's when these new fangled gas and oil engines began to appear alongside the old steamers? "They'll never last, all I have to do is clean out the steam tubes and firebox and I'm away..." I was the same with electronic ignition on cars, I hated the idea and thought it would never last because I couldn't fix it. Electronics will get better, commercial pressure will make sure of that, and there is still going to be maintenance that we can do ourselves. When we all get used to electronics the fear will go out of it. Mostly it's chasing cables and checking connections, same as on the old gear. Another point, several people have compared a good old-timer on an old machine against an average operator on a new machine. What about the same operator on old and new? I know that when I started out on the old Traxcavators I got to the stage where I was maxing what the machines could do, and when I moved onto the hystat tracked loaders I couldn't believe the difference. Now there's clear water between the B series and the D series in terms of output, so we keep moving on. And as for the old Hymacs and Priestmans I started on, or the 200-series Cats, there's no comparison with even the most modest modern excavators. And I don't get as tired operating as I did 30 years ago, so if you want to go back in time, leave me here in the 21st century.
Plenty of replies to this thread ... Althou it needed digging up ... The reason IMO that the replied are thin: People are now realising that electronics are the future .. As a dirty mechanic I would much rarther chase an electrical problem than change a shipper shaft on a shovel (Grease Much!!) The future of electronic control is still growing .. Like its been said .. The old Steam engine boys probably slated this modern Diesel technology. Concider the fact that equipment is pushing towards fiber optic technology .. The AC 930E's and AC P&H shovels are pushing that at the moment. I havent got the strenth to quote and reply to all thats been posted since my last venture in this thread. Back to electronic drive: Trannys for instance can calculate and shift at pre - set times to maximise efficency and fuel economy. This also reduces stress & Strain on the components resulting in a nice smooth shift .. This also reduces the chance of radical shifting where the engine might over speed .. I like the fact that I can throw my F550 into first and it will not jump down until the RPM is correct .. Same with engines .. They take all the info from temp sensors, pressure sensors etc and deliver the right ammount of fuel to give the best power banding and economy .. I do however understand the concerns from people regarding reliablity and repairs .. It suck ass if you have to cough up $150 hr to have a dealer guy troubleshoot problems .. This is an issue .. I think Infomation should be free to everybody .. If you CAT owners need a hand then Iam more than willing to help .. I also know a few people on this site would break there own neck to help ..
It seems the electronics issue is happening in most everything these days. This is an interesting read on appliances. http://www.designnews.com/author.asp?section_id=1367&doc_id=232941&piddl_msgorder=asc#msgs And it doesn't stop there. http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-hampshire-15278838 Make sure and read the cause and solution from a link at the end of the page.
All: I started operating equipment in 1970, yes 42 years ago. I started out on D7-E's with cable pull scrapers. (Those D7-E's were nothing like the electric ones today) I currently work with a company where the oldest piece of equipment is maybe 6 or 7 years old. We are in the process of replacing the oldest with new pieces. We do commercial sites and road replacement and repair. I loved the D8-H, is was the most reliable piece that cat ever built. IMO, but when you compare that to today's D8-T, there is no comparison in the production factor. The next thing would be operator comfort,,,,, again , no comparison. As far as cost of operation, when you turn over your fleet every 8 to 10 years, the maintenance cost is much less with the newer stuff. The electronics make things a lot easier to operate and when you add GPS, the younger folks are a lot more at home with it. I've been a supervisor for the last 25 years, and trying to teach a 20 year old, that has never seen a real temperature or oil pressure gauge, how to properly operate and monitor an old machine can be very trying to say the least. The electronics with the buzzers and warning devices will stop a lot of unneccessary failures. Just a couple of my thoughts for conversation purposes only.
I have a '98 Deere 450G. I wouldn't trade it for two new ones. That's just me though. I've been running equipment since about 1990 so this is the era of equipment that I am comfortable with. I don't want the headache of all the electronics on the new ones. The same goes for vehicles. Mechanical beats electronic in my book anyday. That's why I drive a 1982 VW diesel pickup that gets 48mpg. No Bells, No Whistles, No B.S.
Yair...this has built up into an interesting discussion. As folks who hang out here will know, I'm not qualified to comment on modern gear but it seems to me that one of the things we are loosing is "skill" and the ability to use a bit of common sense. I have loaded trucks with a one yard dragline and put a lot of hours on a Kato eleven hundred track hoe back in the 'eighties how hard is it to learn operate a valve bank to work a few cylinders? There is nothing simpler, more servicable or user friendly than a proper dash-panel of round gauges...with maybe a simple barper for over temp. or low pressure...the incredible jumble of symbols and bargraphs and even menu displays on some gear is quite beyond belief. On a slightly different tack...it bothers me that some young folks will learn to drive on the advanced vehicles with stability control and end up down the track a bit in an older vehicle that does not have it. I would imagine this could be a greater problem for you folks who drive in snow. Cheers.