My first post here so let me give a quick history of my operation. I'm in my late 30s and have been in business for myself for the better part of 20 years. I started my current company in 2007 and I specialize in agricultural construction and grading. Barns, sheds, fencing, light bridges, spring boxes/spring development, grading for farm roads, grass waterways, terraces, small farm ponds, riding arenas, etc. I've also farmed my entire life and have a small beef cattle operation on the side. I work by myself 95% of the time but I am lucky to have several friends, neighbors, and family members that are experienced with equipment when I need a second machine running. I really enjoy finding, fixing, and operating older equipment and it has allowed me to get in the excavating game very inexpensively. My current fleet includes a '98 Case 1845C skid steer, '89 Case 480E 4wd backhoe, '87 Case 450C wide track dozer, '88 F700 single axle dump, '80 F600 single axle dump, as well as a couple newer small Kubota tractors I use for seeding and small jobs. I also sometimes enlist the help of some of the tractors from my farm for box blade work or a pull type scraper. All this brings me to the main questions. I'm getting to the point where I'm doing some bigger land clearing and road building jobs. I'd like to add either a track loader or an excavator to the mix to speed things up and stay productive when conditions get slick. The equipment would also be used for any other dirt work where applicable. I like equipment that is versatile, dependable and profitable. Options are: -New or slightly used 6-ton mini excavator (can haul this with my current 22K pintle hitch trailer) -New or slightly used 8-ton mid-size excavator (will need to upgrade to a larger air brake trailer) -Used small track loader (case 455C, Cat 931B, etc) -Used larger track loader (cat 953 etc) and pay to have it hauled -Used larger 160-200 class excavator and pay to haul -Be content with what I have, spend more time working and less time thinking lol This post is getting long so I'll add in more details as needed. Since everyone loves pics, my current fleet on a land clearing job:
Bigger jobs mean bigger machines, bigger machines means bigger trailer and truck. Looks like you need to invest in a nice rake for the dozer. That job could use some sweeping.
The F-700 has air brakes? If yes, my move would be the biggest air brake trailer that is comfortable for your roads and uses, and the 8 ton hoe with thumb. You have a dozer and a backhoe/loader, a decent sized hoe will get you into a different class of work. It can swing a 4' cleanup bucket if it is not too deep, load a truck in crappy conditions where the others won't, work a grass swale or ditch from the side with decent production. Is bigger better? Sure if you have the work for it. Being able to move in day or night and not hire it is very handy. Having a 200 is great but you have to pay, and wait for it to be moved. Moving up to a bigger truck means you can move your own 160 class machine, but those things are pricey. The 3 axle trailer is pricey. The new tandem dump truck is both pricey and not as handy as a single axle on small sites. IMO that is too big a bite to take at once. It is a recipe for hard times.
Thanks for the quick replies. Yes, chidog you are correct a rake for the dozer is on the short list to buy or build. skyking, Yes the F700 has air brakes, and a GCWR of 50,000lbs. It is a little short on power with only a 185hp 7.8L diesel and a 5+2 spd, but it's plenty capable of towing an 8-ton class machine albeit slow on the hills. Which brings me to my next point which I need to consider which is terrain and job site accessibility. We live in the Blue Ridge mountains and terrain is varied from swampy bottom land to rolling pastures to very steep and rugged. There are many sites where I work that are only accessible with my single axle dump and 25' trailer. The site in the picture is quite remote (at least for the east coast), I'm three miles or so off pavement and even with my small truck and trailer I still had to track the equipment almost a mile from where I could unload. The quarry will not even deliver with their tri-axles back here so I've hauled in a few hundred tons of base rock, 8-ton at a time, on my F700. Most sites are not this remote, but at least half of the roads in the county are inaccessible with a semi. I'm getting a lot of jobs that the big guys don't want but are too big for the guys with just a mini and a skid steer. Its a middle ground that seems pretty profitable for a small nimble one man operation, at least it has been so far. That's partly what I'm trying to decided here as well, stay the size I am and just upgrade my equipment or branch out into some larger jobs. Something that one of my agricultural economics professors used to say was "Better is better before bigger is better." That thought keeps running through my head...
It's a good thought. If you stay with a 30K air brake trailer, those are around 8~9K empty. I can swing our 10K trailer around even unhooked from the air with a 120. In really difficult spots you can turn it around after unloading. I was taking into consideration your description of the agricultural nature of your jobs. A lowboy will certainly not get closer with your 200, nor will a triaxle dump with a triaxle trailer hauling a 160. Your ford is around 13K? I ran a couple of similar Fords with the 165 HP engine, moving 580 and 590 4x4 extendahoes with an electric brake trailer. That plus 25K for trailer and excavator leaves you a little headroom for some pipe bedding as long as you are patient on the road. Get some extra buckets and toss them in the truck for traction and moneymaking.
Welcome to the Forums MG! Glad to have you!
Sounds like you got a good thing going MG84. Not to big....Not to small. I guess it depends on how happy you are with your current situation.
If I was doing jobs on bad roads all the time and going places others don't want to tread. I would be going with some sort of all wheel drive truck, that had locking differentials in the front and rears, yeah $, but then getting stuck is not fun either and costs as well. I'd even consider a 6x6 at some point in time. I would not want a small excavator for doing clearing work, at least a 50 k pounder.
Nice intro. I have no meaningful advice, but welcome to the HEF!
The best business advice I received years ago was to concentrate on one thing/market and do it well. It will be more profitable and less stressful, especially for a small business. It was good advice that got me a long ways. I'm much happier and less stressed working alone. I might not make as much money but there is more to life than money and only a limited amount of time to enjoy what we experience here on earth. Follow a path that you enjoy. I was doing everything/anything to make a buck at the time when I first started into heavy equipment. When I changed my operations to clearing work as a primary occupation, I got rid of my employees, concentrated my efforts on a singular market and deleted most of my stress. I also gained more freedom than ever. Finding a profitable niche is the key. Concentrate your efforts in a limited type of market, be sure to do good work, build a reputation and you will never run out of work. Finding good help is always going to be difficult so once you get that sorted, be sure to pay the good ones well in order to keep them at your side. If those remote jobs are what you like doing, then get set up for that niche. Figure out what is most cost effective for you and your customers and use that as a model. Mobility is everything, be it getting to the job site or working on the job site. Get the largest machine that makes sense for the situation to be most efficient but not so big that it's a hassle to move from job to job.
Thanks for everyone's warm welcomes. I'll try to address a few more things here. I consider myself to be fairly well established, all of my business is word of mouth and I try to provide a premium quality product and customer service. As such I'm usually near the top end of the price scale for our area but still have more business than I can handle. All of my jobs I bid as a turn key price, I haven't done any hourly work in more than a decade. With that being said, I'm trying to be more productive with the current type of jobs I'm doing and therefore get jobs done quicker without sacrificing quality. Moving from a skid steer to a six-way dozer for flat work and finish grading was a huge jump in productivity and also the quality of work I was able to complete. It's that type of move I'm looking to make again and it sounds like an excavator of some form or fashion is the way to go. When I talk about land clearing my projects are not very big compared to what many of you do. Light clearing (mostly dozer work) I'll do jobs up to 5-10 ac, heavy clearing like in the first pic is usually limited to 1-2ac or less. Usually just a clearing for a building, clearing old fence rows, or a swath for a new road. To get a better idea of what I do I've attached a few pics from some jobs I did last year, I plan to continue doing this size/scope of work, just want to do a better job and quicker: Trenching 700' down the side of a mountain from a spring: Cleaned out a small farm pond: Pioneering a road in some steep country: Same section of road completed: More to follow...
Welcome to HEF. I have been doing the same kind of stuff as you since 97-98. I started with a 200 size excavator. I all ready had semi trucks for the farm. Than kept adding equipment. When I look at your line up, I think an 88 or 140 size machine would fit in nicely. I wouldn’t worry about hauling it right away. Just pay to have it moved for a short time. Personally I would take my time and find a non emissions machine. They are out there it just takes awhile to find a nice one.
Riding arena job, moved 700cu yd of clay from hillside to build up pad: Demoing an old house on one of my farms:
If I was ever to go back to general excavation work, and do it alone, I would get a tandem or triaxle dump with a pintle hook trailer and a Kobelco Bladerunner excavator with a six way blade. I rented one for a special trail project years ago and it was the most efficient thing I had ever used. It was not suitable for swamp work with the dozer blade frame hanging low but it sure was great as a multipurpose machine that could excavate and lay grade with a single machine. The outer edges of the dozer blade would also fold in to keep legal width so you could move it 24/7. If I ever update to another excavator for use on my farm, that will be on the short list. That and the Mecalac MCR series of machines that do double duty with one operator. To me, it's all about efficiency.
That driveway turned out great. Nice work!
Thanks, that was about 1100' of all weather road I put in on that job, hopefully will be doing more on that site this year including more road and a small camp ground. As for the excavator recommendations, I've been doing a lot more thinking on the matter and if I'm being completely honest with myself I only do a couple big jobs a year where larger excavator would really be warranted. My current backhoe is a good fit size wise, I just need something with tracks, a hyd thumb and a house that swings 360* (maybe a touch more breakout force on the bucket.) Which brings me back to a large mini or small mid size excavator. From a purely monetary stand point I think something in the 4-8ton range would be the most profitable and have the quickest ROI for the size operation I'm currently running. As such, I've decided to start renting some various machines and try them out on my jobs. This week hopefully I'll get a 4-ton Kubota or Tak mini to try out on the clearing job, then a 6-ton unit for a house site I'm developing this spring. If they prove insufficient I'll try out an 8-ton (I sound like Goldie Locks of excavators HaHa!) Rent each for a week or two to really get a feel for them. I'll try to keep this thread updated with my findings and final decision.
I wish you well with your business.It seems to be growing nicely . If you take the big leap to a Cat 953,be sure to do your research on it. They can be troublesome and expensive and require skilled professionals to diagnose and repair them.Money pits. However,with good luck and good planning,a nice 953 would boost your productivity big style.
As for a 953, that is a piece of equipment I'd love to own one day, but I think that is day some time down the road. I've hired a 953C for some clearing jobs years ago (when all I had was my little Kubota backhoe) and the amount of work a good operator can accomplish in a day is impressive. Realistically I'm not equipped to move, maintain or repair anything that large, at least not yet. Which brings me to another point I'd like to discuss with yall, which is matching your equipment size to your 'infrastructure' for lack of a better term. In my mind your truck, trailer, shop, tools (and maybe wallet lol) should be matched to the size equipment you own. My farm shop is well set up to work on equipment the size I own and my F700 and 22K trailer haul them without any drama. I feel like moving to the next 'step up' is a big jump in all those areas, otherwise I'm working on equipment outside in the elements, paying to have it hauled, paying for a service call from the dealer, etc. Edit: I reread this thread and some of you are in agreement, especially on the trucking side. I know when you get to a certain size equipment many service and repair jobs have to be done in the field, but working on my stuff in the shop is a luxury I'd like to keep if possible.
MG84. Sounds like you have a good handle on it. Makes perfect sense to me. You will do well.
A 6 or 8 ton excavator is not going to stretch your hauling capabilities. It won't b a soeed demon but you'll get there
I have a 28000 LB dump truck, a 22,500 LB triaxle trailer, a Case 580 Super N backhoe, a Dresser TD7G dozer (14000 LBS) I'm more an electrician, so equipment doesn't get used every day. My hoe is big enough to dig & it doubles as a loader. As I see it, I can dig a 46" deep trench 200' long in 3 hours. Restoring it to a lawn usually takes 2 days. I'm backfilling with the 2' toothed digging bucket, which is slow. Near everywhere I work is rocky soil, so a tremendous job of rock picking is done with backhoe & a utility tractor, but largely hand work. I usually get a load of "top soil" a local guy sells, a mix of sand & rotted manure. I have no major purchases in mind, but a Harley rake, screener, 3' toothless bucket would make life easier.
Willie B, you and I have similar tastes in equipment. A dump truck, backhoe and dozer are all a man really needs to do most anything, I plan to keep all of those in my arsenal as long as I'm in this game. Even if I get an excavator I'm sure there will still be plenty of quick jobs where a 4wd backhoe is the only tool needed on the job. I can't count the number of times I've seen some poor guy on a mini excavator hauling dirt or rock from one end of the job site to the other, one tiny bucket full at a time. The 6-8 ton mini/midi excavators are the ones I'm really interested to try out. I have a lot of seat time on a Kubota KX121 but that was years ago and 90% of that was trenching and dirt work. I've only run a 6 ton (Tak TB260) a grand total of about 8hrs and there again was mostly dirt work, although I did bring it back to the farm and take out a couple trees with it. Never been on an 8 ton machine but I look forward to trying one out. Seems to be a size that's only gotten popular in the last few years.
Small excavators are valuable if you can move them. I figure 8 tons is right for my trailer. My truck is big enough for a larger trailer, but is limited in horsepower. Vermont is all hills. I own land a few miles away. I can drive there in 15 minutes in backhoe, I couldn't load an excavator in 15 minutes.
I ran this Volvo 88 on Mt. Rainier in 2013-2014, and remember it was a really nice well balanced machine. I operated Deere 80s back in the day but both were really worn out.
Rented a Case CX60C 6-ton mini today and tried it out, thoroughly unimpressed. This was a machine that weighs almost 14K, has 65hp and 9100lbs of breakout force so it's decent sized for the class. It was also almost new, still had plastic on the seat and only 428hrs. Once positioned at a tree it was no faster than the 480E at digging the roots out and laying the tree down. In fact there were several trees the backhoe could reach up and push over with no digging that the CX60 had to take several swipes on three sides to loosen it to push it over. Seemed to have less breakout force despite what the spec sheet said. I honestly couldn't believe it as the 480E is small for a full size hoe (11000lbs, 60hp, 8200lbs bucket breakout) but it was outperforming an excavator that should have it beat. Lifting capacity wasn't much better, the 1845C skid steer could lift and carry stumps that the CX60 struggled with. It was so bad after less than an hour I called the rental place and informed them I was bringing it back that afternoon and wanted my money back for the one week rental I had planned. The only redeeming qualities were that it got around better in the mud and was quicker to get in position at each tree. So I was thinking about renting some other brands and trying them, but now I'm not even sure if it's worth the time and money. I feel like I may be trying to bring a knife to a gun fight. I can only legally haul 17,000lbs on my trailer so that puts most 8-ton class machines out of my reach for the time being.
I rented a smaller Case recently and no, it was not as handy as our 35G John Deere. I was 200 miles away from home and not bringing the mini there.
I wouldn't be turned off on that size yet. I've never run a Case but the Cat, Tako, Komatsu and Kobelco 60 to 80 size that I've run were pretty all pretty strong. Well, except for the PC78 which wasn't much for speed or power but it was for sale for a good price. Give some other brands a try.
I've certainly followed a little in your path, started collecting equipment along the way doing small jobs for people. Started out with a 450c track loader, added a F600 dump truck, added a skid steer and backhoe. While I don't do the size of projects you do the biggest and best upgrade I think I did was when I upgraded my F600 for a L8000 single axle dump truck. It has the fuller 13 speed(?), air brake and a cummins engine. That truck makes everything so much better, has power and brakes for days. I guess I kinda consider it the foundation of what I do and I want the best piece there. I was really fortunate I picked it up for 10k and truth be told I'd of paid 15k if they would of asked it. That's just my 2cents and welcome to the board, I wish I had the guts to quite my day job and follow in your footsteps and full time it.
Today was far more successful than yesterday. Rented a Takeuchi TB260 with a cab and 24" bucket. It is so much better than the Case its almost like they aren't in the same league. The only downfall is this one doesn't have a thumb which was a real bummer. The rental place didn't know when any that size with thumbs would be in and I need this job done ASAP. I've gotten pretty good at picking up logs, stumps and such with just the bucket from running backhoes for so many years. Still though, with a thumb this would be a heck of a productive little machine. Some observations: -TB260 has far more breakout power than the CX60 and a noticeable amount more than my 480E -Still doesn't have quite as much oomph with the boom to push over trees as the 480E which surprises me, must be the different geometry of the machines. What it lacks in that area it quickly makes up for in speed and precision. -TB260 was equipped with a TAG bucket and quick coupler which was a lot less sloppy than the pin grabber style on the Case -In hindsight the pin grabber coupler was probably really hurting the breakout force on the Case and it didn't have much to begin with -These things are slow to travel, even with a thumb I wouldn't be carrying stuff too far. Need to be paired up with a dozer or loader for any kind of productivity on a large site. -Not sure If I like the cab on this size machine. Kinda a pain to get in and out of which is important to me being a one man show. Between running the saw and the dozer I'm in and out of it all day. -6 ton machine is plenty adequate for 90% of the work I do now that I found a decent one We'll see how tomorrow goes, productivity was definitely up over that backhoe but it's hard to quantify exactly how much. So far I'm really liking this machine, glad I gave this size class another chance. If you can find a way to go full time, do it. I enjoy my both of my jobs (farming and contracting) so much I look forward to Monday so I can get back to work on my projects. For the hauling/towing/on road portion I agree one of the heavier single axles would be nice, more power, more gears, higher tow capacity. The problem I've run into is when you get into the L8000 series, single axle Kenworths or Freightliners, etc they are way too heavy on the front end to go well off road. The F-series Fords and C-series Chevy medium duties are great for off highway work if setup correctly. The 7.8l in my F700 is a little heavier than I'd like, but it still goes pretty well. My F600 with the 429 gas motor goes excellent off road and is my site truck of choice between the two. Both are setup with a 10' bed (short wheelbase) and the most aggressive drive tires you can buy. They will take a load places many a 4wd F450/550 won't make it. Just don't get the front end pointed down hill and try to back up, then your done, lol.
I suggest you try out an 8 ton now. Were you travelling in high range? usually they move fast enough for most things.
Unfortunately due to the steep hills here I feel I'm maxed out with this size machine as far as hauling goes. My dozer is just under 14,000lbs and that's really all I want to haul. There are hills so steep if you come to a stop on them with a heavy load there's a real possibility of wringing off a driveshaft trying to get moving again. I remember once I missed a gear in my fathers 4700 IH on a steep hill with 8 ton of rock on it. There was no way I was getting moving again with out either smoking the clutch or putting the driveshaft of the ground. Backed all the way down, started at the bottom in 1st and crawled up at 5mph. Another time I had to stop for a school bus on a steep hill when I was towing the backhoe which only weighs 11K. Line of cars behind me, so backing up wasn't an option. 1st gear, low axle, got it moving with the F600 but you could smell the clutch. In the winter when the roads are slick there are certain hills I'll drive 15mi out of my way to avoid. The Case CX60 had an auto hi/lo speed on the tracks but in high it didn't have enough power to turn, had to shift back to low to make a turn which didn't seem right. The TB260 might have hi/lo speed on the tracks but I haven't been able to find a button/switch yet?
Huh! Mine is Allison. Starting on a hill is never a problem. Speed is a problem. Plenty of hills it never gets out of first. one hill is a mile averages more than 10% grade meaning some of it is 15% or more. 17000 LB backhoe & 1-1/2 yard of haul away rocks, it was full throttle, low gear, 15 MPH, but I made it.
Both of my Fords are a 5spd + 2spd rear axle, also have an old C60 Chevy with a 350 and 4+2 that I just use around the farm. I usually get a good run at a hill in high gear, hi axle. Start slowing down, drop to lo axle, then start dropping full gears until it'll pull it. Some hills I'll be on the low side of 2nd when I make it to the top which is about 10-15mph. If it doesn't make it in 2-LO your in trouble because first in all of those trucks is an unsynchornized granny gear, IE you'll probably be stopped before you get it in gear. Maybe someday I'll have one of these modern medium duties with 300hp, auto trans, etc. Heck I'd just be happy with a radio and A/C lol
I upgraded from a C65. Mine had a 366 tall block truck engine I converted to a 427. I ran it 14 years. Early on it needed a full gas tank to climb a hill, As it aged it couldn't climb steep at all. I found a fuel filter with cracked O ring leaking air into the suction of the fuel pump. Nothing cured it! I finally added an electric fuel pump at the tank & in line fuel filters. Cured the problem. The "NEW" 1990 Top Kick with Cat 3208 10.4 liter turbo diesel is NOT overpowered, but does make it up the steepest hills.
sometimes the high range is a switch on one of the travel sticks. Bummer that you are at your trucking limits. I don't think the pin grabber has anything to do with that Case seeming weak, the one I used was a 37 so a little more machine than the 35G John Deere I run, and it was less capable. It was OK, just not thrilling. It sounds like you are having fun trying out machines.
I have a 22-ton trackhoe, and when I used to do that type of job, I frequently used my trackhoe to get stuff loose, and the loader of my 580 sK to transport it to the burn pile
Found the high range switch, it was on the left stick, sure makes it a lot faster. Yes, I'm enjoying trying machines out, it's nice to compare and contrast the different brands. I hope to also try out a Kubota in this size as well as a Kato. Both the Case dealer and New Holland dealer rent and sell Kato brand mini excavators instead of there own (what does that tell you?). Haven't run a Kato but they had a 5-ton at the dealer I briefly looked at and was actually fairly impressed by it. Looked simple, rugged and no extra electronics, touch screens, etc. I believe the Kato mini line used to be IHI and are made in Japan. If the conditions were drier and less steep this is what I do as well, except I was using a grapple bucket on my 1845C skid steer. What were you using on the 580SK, did you just have forks or some kind of grapple? I've often thought about adding a toothbar and grapple to the loader bucket on my 480E.
So I have some big updates to this thread, bought a new piece of equipment and it was one that wasn't even on my radar to begin with. After spending quite some time using the rented TB260 excavator I realized that more than half the time I was just using it for the thumb to move logs and debris across the muddy job site. This got me thinking that maybe a CTL is what I need. Looked at Case, Takeuchi and Kubota machines and ended up buying a new Kubota SVL 65-2. It's physically about the same size as my 1845c but with almost twice the lifting capacity and a lot more traction and flotation. At 8K lbs it's small enough to haul behind my pickup. I will definitely be adding an excavator sometime in the not so distant future, but I need a little more time to decide on what size, features, etc I want. Since the skid steer is my most used piece of equipment by far I figured it was the one to upgrade first. BTW, the Case 1845c isn't leaving the fleet, although it might spend more time on the farm than the job site now. It's the most reliable piece of equipment I've ever owned, nearly 5000hrs and never missed a days work and never a repair that cost more than $100. Pretty big shoes for the Kubota to live up to but time will tell. Pics of the new SVL 65-2, got it for $9K off MSRP. Used the savings to buy a new grapple rake, a set of 5500lb walk through forks and a couple buckets. (That grapple rake is simply awesome for land clearing type work!)
That looks awesome! You could rent an ex for tearing out stuff quickly, and that thing would ball up a big wad of stuff and pack it off.
Be careful piling. You wouldn't be the first guy who impaled himself. You are right up there where the action happens. I would suggest never getting in that skidder to play with trees without your phone.
Skyking, Thanks, yes it really cleans up the site quick. It's not quite like a rake on a dozer but does a good job at raking, grappling and piling. terexherder, I agree. My two biggest safety rules when working it the woods are look up often and push slowly.