Hi, i was just wondering if anyone knew if the alternator on an 89 210c has to be excited? I had the alternator rebuilt, then a neighbor borrowed it, he called a few days later and told me he just took the alt. to a rebuild shop because it was bad. I told him to go get it back because I just had it rebuilt. He brought it back home put it on and still no charge. So I called the shop where I had it rebuilt, they told me to excite the alternator and see what happens. I did and it started charging, problem solved right, wrong every time you start it you have to excite the alternator to get it to charge . One thing I thought of after i got home, i seem to remember that on some equipment you have to run the throttle up half way or so after start up to get them to start charging. I know for sure that my neighbor was running it at very low rpms,maybe he never had enough throttle to get it to start charging? Anyhow if anyone has an idea please share, I'll try any tips you offer. Thanks Lee
The field has to get a shot of voltage from the battery, then it self excites when the alternator is turning. The problem is your wiring. My 310C has the same problem... (when I get around to it) I'll trace the circuit & find the problem. It was Kluged badly by the previous owner. My machine has an excite relay somewhere that drops out after the start. Likely yours does too.
If your starter solenoid has an ignition boost post on it, (another small post like the start post), you can run a wire from it to the alternator excite terminal, I had to do that on a JD 2950 instead of tearing the dash apart to find the problem. Upon starting, it sends voltage to the alternator for just long enough to excite then drops out. If not, run a wire to it from the start terminal with a diode in the line to keep from backfeeding and trying to keep the starter engaged.
You can use a n/c contact oil pressure switch to hit the field to make it charge, just make sure the input to the switch is key controlled. You can also use this to operate a low oil pressure warning light/alarm, because we all always check our oil level before we start .
On a old Detroit power machine I got I ran a wire from the alternator post thru a push button in the cab to the alternator body. After I start it I momentary touch the button and the charge is on for the day. It has been working that way for 10 plus years with no issue. No need to rev it up tight to self excite.
Old Iron ... I've been doing the same. And sometimes I forget to start the alternator
Once the alternator is charging, it doesn't draw any more power through the excite terminal, "they" use this to turn off your "battery light" (low voltage/alternator not charging is what it really means). In the old days it was just a light bulb in the line from the ignition switch to the excite terminal of the alternator, turn the key-battery light comes on, start the engine and the alternator stops drawing power-light goes out. Does a 210C have the logic module and monitor with the yellow and red flashing light? If it does, then the excite wiring goes through there, making it more complicated to track down. If your monitor is long gone, then run it Amish style or add a diode and a warning light so it runs more directly off the ignition switch. I don't know about any excite relay, that sounds funny to me. The old or cobbled equipment that you have to rev is a one wire alternator most likely, that's another solution but it has it's problems too. Reving to get it to start charging, and they seem to me to drain the battery dead randomly.
You need to wire the "exciter" feed wire from the alt, into the run/"START" circuit of the starter. When you turn the key to "start", it excites the alt and then your key goes back to "run. If you wire a light into this wire, when the key is in the run position ( not running yet ) the light will come on. Once you " Start" the engine, by doing so, you exite the allt and when you return the key back to run,, the light should go out. Letting you know it's charging.
Do you have a wiring diagram for your unit? Somewhere in the wiring to the alternator or the regulator, there should be a wire to the keyswitch to bring the alternator "online" to charge. They all have it. If you didn't, the alternator would discharge the battery with the engine off. It does sometimes run through a dash indicator light like someone else mentioned. If there is not a resistor around this light socket, then if the bulb burns out you will not get any charging till it's replaced.
I was looking at a wiring diagram for a 610C, who knows if the alternator and dash is the same? That's why I asked about the monitor and logic module. You're right about the light, I was overthinking the wiring diagram, there is still a battery warning light just like any other alternator, the only difference is a few more wire connections to make tracing the wire that much harder.
They way they usually do it, the light is in a plastic ungrounded socket. Power comes from the keyswitch to one side of the light, through the bulb, and then out to the regulator. When you first turn the key on you have 12v on one side of the bulb from the keyswitch, and a lower voltage on the regulator side, the light lights up. When you get the engine started and the alternator starts charging, 12v appears on the regulator side of the dash bulb. 12v from the keyswitch and 12v from the regulator means zero volts across the bulb, the light goes out, it's charging.
I think it is or was a special low resistance bulb or a bulb with a resistor across it too.
The ones I have messed with were just a regular small instrument panel bulb. Most of the Fords had the resistor, just in case the bulb burned out. I have messed with some GM's that didn't have the resistor, and they would not charge if it burnt out.
The resistor is usually a 560 ohm resistor. Just like franklin said, it's there should the bulb burn out.
Thanks everyone, you all gave me a lot of good information. I had a job to do on Saturday and wanted to try to have it fixed,but realized it wasn't gonna be that simple. So for a quick fix, i ran a wire from the excite terminal on the alternator directly to the starter solenoid, thinking that the wire would only be hot for the time the start circuit was activated. what i didn't think about was the back feeding issue, but I ran it about 7 hours with several stops and restarts and never had the starter not disengage. That being said, I'm going to try to fix it right. I noticed that none of the warning lights on the dashboard are working and that the running/working lights aren't either,and they all did before. I don't have a manual for the machine,but something tells me that I should. Heck i don't even know where the fuse block is located,so i can try to start on this. by the way, I checked the voltage at the battery. before I installed the wire it was reading battery voltage when running, after it was putting out about 13.7 to 14 volts. Also does anyone happen to know if and where a 89 210c fuse panel is located? thanks to everyone for your help, Lee
No, but I'd look on the right side (as you're driving, toward the front), possibly covered with a 5"x5" steel plate with two screws.
Remember .... WRWtexan posted about a diode to prevent power back feeding to the starter solenoid.
Question, the 560 ohm resistor that hookedondiesel talks about,is this the same as the diode that WRWtexan spoke of? If so where can I buy one? Wire it directly into the wire i have running from the alternator to the starter selonoid correct? I figure that i might as well put one in for safeties sake, being i don't know how long it will take to fix it right. Thanks again
If you are looking for a quick fix, (this is only temporary unless it works) run a wire from the accessory terminal on the key switch to the exciter term on the alternator. If you do that it won't cause a run on when you try to kill the engine.
Repowerguy, if i do that, how will the alternator be excited? You mean turn the key to acc.before i start the engine? I was under the impression that the alternator had to be spinning while receiving the excite voltage. I'll be the first to admit that I could be wrong tho.
The alternator will be spinning once the engine is running. The accessory position is there so you can listen to the radio with the engine off, you'll defeat that by hooking the alternator there, that's the only reason not to do it that way. Acc is also on with IGN when the engine is running.
Delmer, I knew what the acc.position was for,but i did not know that it was active with the key in the on position. So just to be sure I'm getting this right, you're saying if i hook any 12v load to the acc.side of the ignition switch it will have power when the switch is on acc.and also when on the run side? I can't believe that I never knew that! Thank you, for clearing that up.I'm not saying that I didn't believe Repowerguy, but i was more than a little skeptical. LoL thanks again, Lee Hey,if you know anything about the hydraulic system on the 210c give my most recent post a look.
Yes sir, doesn't your radio work when the key is in Run? Can you post a couple pictures of the setup and the end of the hose that came loose? The thing that I've seen blow hoses is air in the system, it gets released under some residual pressure and that is enough to blow a hose loose when it could easily handle the hydraulic flow without the surge from the sudden air pressure release.
The accessory term is hot when the key is on. Think of your truck, things like the radio are powered off the accessory side of the switch. If you power the excite term on the alternator from this, it will be separate from the ignition circuit but still powered up when the engine is running. This is providing the switch has a accessory terminal on it of course.
Delmer, it sure does. I think from reading Repowerguy and your messages,i was assuming that the acc.and the run position circuits were one and the same. When I thought about it i knew that they couldn't be. Because when the key is in the run position it would be possible for both circuits to be energized as one. But with the key in the acc. Position you wouldn't want your warning lights, gauges, etc.and the radio to be on at the same time. Therefor i was thinking two separate circuits,not thinking that in one position they both are energized and in the other only one.
Repowerguy, I get it now,if you read my response to Delmer, i explained my thinking, or lack of. I guess I was responding to him when you posted. Thanks for your help, Lee
Repowerguy, correct me if I'm wrong, but if the acc.circuit is energized while the switch is in the run position that means the excite circuit would be energized the whole time the machine is running correct? I was under the impression that the excite circuit should only be energized for a brief moment, until the alternator can make its own power.
As far as I know the alternator will be fine with power to the excite term while running. If that makes you nervous, you can run it in series with a dash mounted light, a idiot light if you will. I'm sorry if it seemed I was piling on, after I made my response at 5:00 I got all the other posts from you and Delmer. A glitch in the forum software maybe?
Don't worry about it,i didn't think anything of it. I'm on here because I want the advice of people who know a great deal more than me about these machines and their problems, i appreciate all of the responses .
The resistor is not the same. If your tractor is wired with the regulator through the dash, the power wire goes through the "gen" light bulb to bring the charging system online. If the bulb burns out, then the power cannot go through the bulb, so it won't charge. So they put a resistor around the bulb with a high enough value to not affect the bulb lighting up, but low enough value that if the bulb burns out, the resistor can still pass current through to bring the charging system online. You don't have to worry about any of this if you are going to rig your own wire. A diode is just a electrical check valve, much a like a hydraulic check valve. It can be useful to let the excite signal go to the alternator, but not let the voltage from the alternator come back to the solenoid and cause problems. Radio shack usually sells these.
The excite only NEEDS to be energized briefly. But on nearly every machine ever built, it is energized from the ignition switch, mostly through an idiot light as described. The only reason not to run it off ACC is that the battery will drain faster if you run the radio with the engine off. The diode is for hooking your own line to the ignition or start positions, to keep the alternator from feeding power back and running the starter or keeping the engine running when you shut off the key.
All of you talking about the 'excite' wiring; is this the same wire as going from the ignition switch, thru a voltage regulator and then into the brushes in the alternator? I've driven at least 100 different cars and trucks, and none of them with an alternator ever had any pushbutton to get it charging. It does that automatically when the 60 watts of power start flowing thru the rotor. It's about a 5 amp draw thru the rotor. Most alternators have a field terminal; that's the rotor windings, output off the stator, and the bulb circuit terminal. The charge light circuit is power from the ignition switch into the bulb and it grounds in the stator, which is the output of the alternator. When the alternator starts charging, there is 12 volts of power coming back up the wire to the bulb. With 12 volts on both sides of the bulb, no current flow and the bulb goes out. This is what Franklin2 was talking about, but didn't include exactly how the bulb has the same voltage at both ends. I've read about the GM single wire deal, those have to be turning 2K rpms? to charge. I've heard about exciting a generator that has a permanent magnet instead of an electro magnet as in an alternator. But alternators don't need that.
The resistor is placed "across the bulb connection's, in the underside of the bulb socket. It's a safety should the bulb burn out. I don't believe there is a need for a diode as you have an internal regulator in your alt that already takes care of this. The "eciter" wire needs to be only momentarily, not constant, this is where you may run into feedback if you hook it up to "run" or "acc". It should be ran from the "start" circuit, and only get juice to excite momentarily.
The excite wire is just the Rube Goldberg way of getting it to charge. You need a magnetic field cut by another set of windings to generate power. Exciting the rotor is a way to start this magnetic field, and then by nature it stays magnetic until the rotor is stopped. The ignition switch power to the regulator is the normal way most things are wired from the factory.
I disagree. I CAN be run momentarily and work, but it is usually switched with the ignition switch. Really, it shouldn't take two pages to Jethro an alternator, he had it working in post #15, and he doesn't need to understand what's going on to fix the original wiring, just needs a manual. El Hombre, I disagree slightly with you to. The bulb circuit IS the excite line that goes to the field to start the charging. Once the alternator is charging the current draw stops and the light goes out. The other line is usually a remote voltage sense line that goes to a relay or fuse panel away from the battery, so that most of the electrical system will be in the right voltage range, even if the alternator has to put out 16V to keep the headlights, wipers, and fan feeds at 14V. For jethro'd farm wiring, that wire can go directly to the battery terminal on the alternator. There can also be a "W" terminal that is one phase of the AC output that is for driving a tachometer from the varying frequency.
The resistor/bulb serves the same purpose as the diode. To keep the engine from running on when you turn off the key switch. The exciter terminal will keep putting out +14V while the engine still spins, but when it gets back through the resistor it will have dropped to negligible voltage. If there is no diode or resistor, the voltage from the exciter terminal can easily supply enough power to keep the fuel solenoid on.