Hi all, I hope this is okay to post here. I'm a writer and have been researching excavators and trench digging. The second book in my series is set in a post-apocalyptic zombie world, and at one point a trench will be dug around an area of about 10 acres. So the trench will be at least half a mile long (as well as approx 5 feet deep and wide enough for a vehicle to drive into, but not turn around). I hate to get my facts wrong, so my questions for you are: Is this feasible? How long would this take (using a small-ish excavator or whatever size would be necessary)? It appears excavators run on diesel--is it a special type of diesel? Do any run on regular gas? How much fuel would one need for this job (or per foot)? Is there a machine that would do a better job than an excavator? Any advice or ideas I haven't considered are much appreciated. And thanks for taking the time to reply and/or not laugh at my complete lack of knowledge on this subject. -Sarah
Yair . . . tdeve11 . Welcome to the forum. I too am a writer and know how difficult it can be to ascertain facts about things you don't know about. Excavators are not really in my area of expertise but yes, what you propose is absolutely feasible and a diesel driven excavator would be the tool of choice. I am sure some folks on here will come up with some numbers . . . if not I'll see what I can work out for you and if I get it wrong they'll shoot me down in flames. (big grin) All the best with book. Cheers.
Hi, Scrub Puller. You're a writer? Cool. Thanks for replying and the offer to get shot down in flames if need be!
Good day tdeve11 Machine specification requires reach digging depth and load over height to be taken into consideration, in addition to dispel of the material,. We would suggest you approach an experienced estimator for help or if you are determined to go it alone try to obtain either a Caterpillar or Komatsu application handbook. In both their is some detailed information that assist production estimating. This you will see is far from straight forward and we wish you luck. Kind regards Uffex
Google ditchwitch and have a look at some if their purpose made trenching machines, might give you some ideas!
Hello and welcome ! Strangely enough I am in the process of doing this on my property. I'm only digging my trench 24 inches wide and what ever depth is required to build a berm with the spoils. My berms are only three foot ( approx ) high. It's tall enough you won't just drive over the top. My plan is to let natural vegetation grow back through and plant some shrubs were need be. Not quite the zombie apocalypse stopper . I am using a standard backhoe for the job. Tractor/ loader / backhoe. I burn about 25 gals of diesel in 2 days. I can not give you feet per hour / per day. I only work on this in my down time. I know it's not everything you are looking for but maybe this helps.
Production rate would depend on whether the operator was a zombie or a living person. I've work with some zombies, and while they're nice enough guys, they aren't that productive... Seriously though, I'm sure you'll get lots of good advice here. And I applaud your desire to get the facts straight. It seems like that's something that's lacking in too many writers. :thumbsup Did you know we have a zombie specialist on staff? Paging CM1995... Paging CM1995....
Yes,,,, CM1995 is the site's in-house Zombie guru....:falldownlaugh
Hi. This can be done easily with either a rubber tired backhoe such as a cat 420D or an actual excavator like a cat 320D. It would go a lot faster with the 320D because it can move more dirt in a short time. If your trying to outrun a zombie the 420d will drive about 20 mph while the 320 will only make about 4 mph. The 320D being able to swing a full circle would knock them down pretty quick if you decided to stand your ground . You would need a lot of fuel to do this but I cant say really how much. I would think at least 100 gallons. http://www.ritchiespecs.com/specifi...oe&make=Caterpillar&model=420D&modelid=104680 http://www.ritchiespecs.com/specifi...tor&make=Caterpillar&model=320D&modelid=92596
I dug 500 ft of trench like you describe this fall. It took about 30 hours using a Hitachi 120, but I was fighting up to 6 ft boulders the whole way, sometimes I ended up with a pit 15 feet across trying to get through a boulder nest. In good digging with a wider bucket it would have taken a fraction of the time. The 120, which weighs about 26-30,000 pounds is a really common size in most pre-apocalypse neighborhoods. BTW, I was digging for a ground-source heat pump, but fill that trench with tires and light it off and it'll be a real zombie stopper.
Thank you, all. uffex- I will look into those handbooks. And hmm, I wonder what the estimator would think of my question. fsmech- Ooh, a trenching machine. See, I didn't even know that existed! If they got their hands on one, that could work great. dirtmonkey- Thanks, knowing what you use is still helpful. That sounds like quite a project. You just reminded me, that's another thing they have to do--cart away the dirt--since a berm is probably not the best idea with zombies (they want to be able see what's coming and be able to kill them easily). digger242j- Love that thread! I will definitely read it all later. I'm always looking for good ideas. Mobiltech- Thank you for the links. It'd be fun to swing the 320D and take them out! wilko- Thank you for your experience and equipment, it does help. And the six foot boulders also make it sound like that was a ton of work. I didn't think about rocks. Gah! Northern Vermont is pretty rocky, I think. Off to Google.
There is probably a lot more that can be discussed, but getting back to your first post... I'm assuming you're concerned with the availability of diesel in a post-apocalyptic environment, as well you should be. I doubt you'll find many that run on regular gas, even here, pre-apocalypse. There may be one out there somewhere, but it would stretch your credibility to include one. As to diesel type, the main difference between what goes in cars and trucks and what goes in off-highway construction equipment is that red dye is added to the off-road type, to indicate that it has not been taxed for on-highway use. It's the same stuff as home heating oil too. (Given the consensus of opinion that most Department of Revenue field inspectors are vampires, as opposed to zombies, the taxable status of the fuel may or may not be a consideration for you.) As to availability, if you find a serviceable excavator, post-apocalypse, chances are that there may be an ample supply of fuel nearby. It's very common on job sites to have a tank of fuel, of several hundred or even thousand, gallons capacity. The fuel supplier will come and refill them as often as requested. Beyond that, many of us will also have a hundred or so gallon tank in the bed of our pickup truck. One other thought, that neither you nor any of the others have brought up yet, is that trenches fill up with water when it rains, and unless they're dug through relatively stable rock, over time the sides will tend to cave in. I don't know whether that's a consideration for your story or not, but it bears mentioning. I'm sure more suggestions will be forthcoming. Most likely the question of dealer support in a post-apocalyptic scenario will be an important one...
I'm here, the damn Snowmaggedon 2014 temporarily took the HEF red phone out for a few days. Yeah and Grandpa is our in-house flatulence expert but that's another thread..:cool2 All good points brought up there by Digger. There would be ample supply of machines and diesel in a post-apocolyptic world that one would just need to look for as Digger stated. Gas stations that normally supply fuel would be inaccessible as the power would be out to the pumps but there are numerous tanks on construction sites in the 500-1000 gal range that run 12 volt pumps with alligator clips to connect to a truck or equipment battery to pump fuel. We use them all the time to fuel on-site equipment as well as 60-100 gallon tanks we carry in our pickups that have the same 12 volt pump. There needs to be a construction site close by and the fuel issue is solved. As far as the trench digging goes, digging a ditch around 10 acres is a very big project. Not knowing the layout but roughly doing the numbers, an acre is roughly 210' x 210' if it was a square, so for simplicity if you dug a 10 acre square 5 acres long by 2 acres deep you would have 14 "sides" at 210 feet each to dig, which would be 2940 LF of trench. Say the trench is 5' deep and 10' wide that would be 5,444 bank CY. A Cat 320 excavator will have a 1.5 CY bucket on average, you can hang a bigger one on it but that would probably be the most common to find in an apocalyptic world. So it would take 3,629 cycles ( the time it takes to load a bucket and place it) to move that much earth. Cycle times vary with material excavated, site conditions, operator proficiency, swell factor, etc. - you get the idea and it doesn't have to be that detailed as only us equipment nerds would know the difference. So let's say the cycle time is 20 seconds, yeah I know there will be some flack about that cycle time but there has to be some sort of average cycle time when you take into account moving the machine, fueling, pee breaks and fighting off zombies. So 3,629 cycles at 20 seconds a cycle it would take 20 hours of straight digging, in reality it would take 3-4 days with a good operator to dig that trench. Now that doesn't take into account shaping any zombie deterring berm, just bailing dirt. Of course this is a total generalization as I said before there are a lot of variables but should give a realistic idea. One thing that really irks me in these types of stories is the characters choice of vehicles. They choose a Dodge Charger when there is an F350 sitting right next to it. Proper choice of vehicles is essential in surviving in this situation - just saying'..
Oh, yeah. He'll also claim to know a thing or two about excavating, but that's all only stuff he read about here. :tong
Since we are playing in left field... lets jump the fence! Production is a matter of machine size, bigger machine faster digging. Your pen doesn't care if its a mini hoe, or a mining hoe. Someone could have been hauling one down the interstate and a zombie hooker caught his attention. Dug out my cat performance handbook and a cat 385b will pull a 66" wide bucket with a capacity of 4.94 cu yards or a 78" of 6.1 yards, burn 16 gal of fuel an hour, hold 328 gallon, should be able to get a 30 second cycle for book puroposes. So your moving aprox 10 cu yard a minute witch translates into 10 linear feet of 6'wide, 5'deep ditch per minute. Here is one of our own runnin a 385 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qaa0CNFO0OI That's your excavator info that you wanted, since is a book check this out... wheel trenchers! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EwJoetymG_Y No clue on production, but they will eat an excavator for dinner, you just cant do multiple passes beside each other, or tell till afterwords with other utilities. they are older than excavators and some are gas / steam powered dating back 1920 and earlier http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q9lDB2Yd0h8
While not stated I figured a trench dug to 5 foot deep and 8 foot wide around ten acres would be about 8,360 foot long. That would amount to approximately 37,456 cubic yards of material to move. The type of soil, percentage of hard rock, vegetation, terrain and so on would greatly influence the speed of digging thus the time it would take to dig it. A 330 Cat excavator with a 70 inch trenching bucket would require 22,032 dips in the trench to bail that material. Figure you could make 3 dips per minute might take you 7,344 minutes or 122 hours of dipping. Working eight hours a day is might take 15.25 days of hard digging to finish this. I'll guess at a fuel burn rate of 8 gallons an hour and it might use 976 gallons of fuel for this worthy project. At $4.00 per gallon of diesel you are now just under $4,000 just in fuel at todays rate. So far we haven't talked about the human terms of cost. You need someone to survey this, an environmental manager, safety engineer, lead mechanic, oiler, operator, site supervisor, hazardous fluids supervisor, compaction engineer and a boss to oversee all the aspects of the project. We haven't considered feeding these people, clothes and sanitation. Maybe it would be easier to find a way to program the zombies to dig the ditch. As long as they are eating each other you dodge all that messy stuff with the machines, government control, money and so on.
good one
The whole excavator, or just it's brains?
That's not totally accurate.:nono I ran a skid one time and went to Tractor Supply, so that makes me an expert!
Just cast the dirt to the inside, you have a defense berm and some high ground to see from.
Hey John, assuming the 10 acres are somewhat near square your footage numbers are a little long. If you dug around 40 acres it would only be 5,280 ft around as a 40 is 1/4 mile sq. Still it's a lot of bucketfuls. I think even in the zombie world a loaded gas line should be hit. Might as well make it like real life.
I'm a mechanic, don't know squat about how long it would take to dig that trench, cubic yards, fuel consumption, all that stuff that is useless information for a mechanic. However, back to the topic, the story line in a book during a post apocalyptic zombie era, we don't really need details, such as trench wall cave in, we just need a degree of accuracy. Consider the reader of the book, a 5 ft deep trench wide enough for a vehicle, they typically won't think "wait, what about wall cave in?". Or for that matter, they won't think about "how many boulders or formation rock did they encounter while digging". No, they'll be engrossed in the story if there's a degree of accuracy. I mean, if the story read that the trench, 5 ft deep/wide enough for a vehicle, were being done with a shovel, well, yeah that's a stretch. Just taking a guess, a 120 to 200 size excavator would be the most believable machine. And I agree with others, there's plenty of diesel in jobsite, farm, and support truck tanks to provide the fuel. That would be just another layer in the story, going on a fuel run to a nearby farm with a gravity flow fuel tank to fill some cans while watching out for zombies.
If you go the route I finding a large excavator most of them when transported have to e somewhat disassembled meaning the stick and bucket are off so keep in mind if you find a big one on a trailer it might be in pieces. What about using a dozer to build it? A d9 can move a lot of dirt to build a wall and a zombie would be hard pressed to climb on a moving dozer.
I can't agree. At least not completely. I can become un-engrossed in the story if the accuracy isn't there. I bet you can too. Here, try this on: See? Totally engrossing, until the last line where you're thinking, "Huh? They never put a Detroit in a Bobcat!" and you just put the book down and never pick it up again.
Wait, I thought Sarah was writing the story? Seems digger has a sideline hobby we're not aware of, least until now. That's all I was trying to say digger, Sarah doesn't need all the mathematical minutia of excavation, just mainly the believable accuracy of the details that are included in the story such as the work performed (digging the trench) and the machine being used to perform the work.
I was going to suggest an old school Link-Belt 5800 with a 72 inch bucket, Been there without the zombies.:cool2
I'm an operator for an underground pipeline company so all we do is dig trenches. This could get done pretty quick if you had a good excavator and operator and soil type is a big factor for sure. But one thing know one has brought up is maintaince on this equipment would be a huge factor on getting anywhere on this trench. These things break down all the time and having someone who knows how to work on them would be key. And not only fuel but all the zert fittings that need greesing too is very important.
Yair . . . (Laughing). Those darn zombies sure are popular, this thread gets some hits! Cheers.
An excavator would make an awesome zombie killing vehicle too. Reinforce the cab and attach some huge blades on the sides so when you spin it will cut the zombies up. Maybe modify an attachment to the bucket that has spikes or blades on it too. Or just use the bucket to smash them lol.
If you need a gas fueled excavator for your plot, you could have an excavator that was repowered with a gas engine, possibly so that gas could be siphoned/pumped out of abandoned cars if diesel is not available anymore. Also a hi performance gas engine would make an excavator move faster due to higher rpms and horsepower. How about a flame thrower on the end of the boom for cooking attacking zombie hordes?
If said machine had a pin grabber the possibilities are endless... Tree fellers, brush cutters, etc. Of course with a horde of zombies, one of those big compost turning machines could be interesting too.
ever seen the mine clearing flails mounted on tank chassis?
You guys keep up with this and Sarah's going to have to write Willie into the story, just to make the modifications.
Yep. That could be messy too.
Tree feller is that attachment that has 2 arms that grab the tree and a huge circular saw that cuts the tree at the base right. That would be the best. I would just pick up zombies and cut them in half lol.
Wow, you go away for a night and miss so much! Thank you, all. You're right in that the reader doesn't need every detail, but I like to have them. They may only get 5% of the facts, but, darn it, those facts will be solid. I am reading and re-reading the responses right now. Forgive me for not responding to everyone personally--but know that I've read and am using your response! Only problem with setting zombies on fire is that the brain doesn't cook for a while. Which makes for human (zombie) torches coming after you. Not good. I was also thinking that most job sites/excavation companies would have their own fuel tanks. And y'all answered that question before I could ask. Interesting about the red dye. Digger and CM1995- I thought about shoring up the sides. Hmm. Didn't consider rainwater. And CM, I hear you on the Charger or other useless car. My characters use a lot of pickups (and are smart enough to have added gas tanks in the truck beds), although one has a soft spot for a VW bus. Digger- Awesome, write that book! Thank you for all that math, JohnC. If only zombies were programmable. There's a movie called Fido, where they use the zombies as slaves. You should check it out. stumpjumper- Thank you for all the links!
I might just. But I've got a Will, so he needs a different name.
Great gory movie scene!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LYKg0gbRFns that would be crazy for zombie killing
I think the story would have more grit to it if the characters were smart enough to get the best they have to offer instead of picking a 70's RV over numerous HUMVEE's that litter a road way, for instance - not wanting to reference a very popular TV show that I have made several comments over how stupid the characters are while watching it from my couch...:cool2 Let's face it, a zombie battle is all about attrition since there are so many of them. He don't read to good and his writing is worse.:tong
My God, between all the zombies, and implementing all the modifications...I'll never get a vacation! :Banghead
Geeezzee man! There are no vacations during the apocalypse! ointhead
See? See that? Just proves you don't know nuthin bout good litrachur, Willie! :tong
You do realize that CM would be plenty mad at me if I told you that you were right, so I'm not gonna say that.
Kinda the brushcutter thing I had in mind.
Here are some numbers based upon equipment I use and soil type I'm familiar with: Komatsu PC-200-8, 48" wide 1.57 cu yd bucket (medium size 50,000lb excavator) Loamy-Clay (no rock, easy to dig) 8' wide x 2,640' long x 5' deep = 3,911 cu yds of dirt At least 35 hours excavating trench Approximately 5 gallons of Diesel fuel per hour = 176 gallons of fuel
Thank you so much, JCSI. That helps a lot!
Can you tell us what the first book in your series was?
Ya know, you guys are being pretty forthcoming with all these great zombie killing ideas, but looking at the question strictly from the standpoint of mathematical probability, if there's a zombie apocalypse, and only a handful of human survivors, chances are you're going to be on the receiving end of all these good ideas. Just sayin... :cool2 Feel free to plug your books, Sarah. By our rules, anybody's allowed one thread in which to introduce their product or service, so I don't see why your books wouldn't qualify. Besides, you're kinda one of the guys now.
Speak for yourself old man!:avid :tong
You read my except from the book. I get eaten in Chapter 17. :beatsme
I want the be the deranged survivor that turns evil and has a band of mercenaries who terrorize the other survivors whilst kicking some serious zombie butt or I get eaten in chapter 1..
Sure, since it seems to be okay. Until the End of the World. It's post-apocalyptic zombie chick-lit, although I get great reviews and emails from guys, which I found surprising at first. Maybe a few are even heavy equipment operators. http://www.amazon.com/dp/B00DX73ZPY
Ha! Very true. I wouldn't want to be shredded by that big thingamajig. There are no excavators in book one. Everyone's just trying to get their acts together. Cool...one of the guys. I'm gonna call on some of you in the ZPAW (Zombie Post-Apocalyptic World.)!
You're that now, just without zombies...
In the post-apocolyptic world some sort of bio-diesel, i.e. homemade in the back shed might be an idea.
You're in there. I knew I recognized you!
:thumbsup
I cant wait to hear Nige's reply to this dribble, he works with them on a daily basis I bet.