Hello everyone! New user on this forum here, greetings to you from Norway. I recently got my hands on an old Fiat Allis FR12 from 1985. It's not much to look at, but im hoping to make it a reliable tool here around the workshop for those tasks that are just to heavy for the forklift. There is one issue though, that i need to sort out before i can dare to start investing any more of my time and money on it. It has a very weak drive, even in the lower gears it is struggling to pull itself up my not-so-steep driveway. The same is true for every gear, back and fourth. The engine revs up as if was in neutral, hardly needing any effort at all. The seller told me that it tends to get better when the transmission is hot. I have not had it at the 60-90 deg celsius operating temperature yet, because im hesitant to drive it around much untill i know im not damaging anything, but from what i can tell it seems to be a little stronger when lukewarm than when cold. But not by much. When i start the machine cold, the transmission pressure takes a good 10 seconds before it comes up. When the pressure is up, its right at the upper end of the green scale. When shifting gears the pressure drops to zero, and takes about three seconds to climb back up. This goes abit faster as the transmission heats up. I am waiting for a new transmission filter, when i get it i will replace the filter and the oil. I have not drained or inspected the oil yet, because i might need to move the loader around while im waiting for that effin filter. Access to parts are a bit slow up here... But i have atleast topped up the oil to the correct level. The oil looks fine on the dipstick. I have been struggling to find good manuals on the gearbox, but am i right in that the converter is bolted directly to the engines flywheel? And the bell housing is wet? That's what my research has led me to, and it shure looks like it when im peeking into the machine from the outside. The reason im asking is because i found a missing lid on a bellhouse inspection hole today, on the left side of the engine below the starter motor. Looking through the hole i can see the flywheel, and reaching in with my fingers i can feel the teeth of the starter ringgear. And there's not a drop of oil to be seen, the back of the flywheel is bone dry even when the motor is running. That's... wrong, right? I would have expected there to be a fountain of oil gushing through that hole. As you can probably tell im not very experienced with torque converters. So if anyone would like to brainstorm this issue with me, i would very much appreciate it. Also, on an unrelated note: The loader has a nameplate on the left side that says 580FR10, why would that be? It is definately not an FR10, all the other nameplates says FR12, and the scales on the semi that brought it here measured it to be roughly 12 tonnes. Thank you, i wish you a very nice day.
Hi FTV, will share a manual of a 4WG150 in conversation. The 150 got some more discs in clutches, the rest is same as 4WG120. And list of lubricants. Guess, the converter bell housing is bolted directly to engine flywheel housing. Externally converter is running dry. Oil type should be 10W or 15W, regular engine oil. With slow pressure build up it seems too thick oil filled in. Oil level about 50 to 70 mm below center output shaft, engine idling, tranny warm. Brakes spinning clear?
Thank you for the manual. Ok, so the flywheel housing/bell housing being dry is not a concern? Good to hear. Part of my "research" was from watching this video: Fiat Allis FR12 loader engine removal , where a gentleman is removing the engine of a loader like mine, and the housing is dripping wet. But as i watched it again today, i noticed him mentioning the seals were probably bad. Guess my seals are fine then Too thick oil, that's quite possible. Who knows whatever oil the last guy poured into it. Im going with a 15W-40 mineral engine oil that should fit the oil specs in the pdf you sendt me. Thanks again for that. The brakes are not hanging, it will rool down my driveway just fine in neutral. In fact only the rear brakes seems to work anyway, because the front disks are covered in rust. I'll post an update once i've had a chance to work on it some more. Still waiting for that filter too.
Hi again, Short update on the loader if anyone is interested, i've now replaced the transmission filter and oil. The old oil was not looking too bad, i dont know what viscosity it was but it seemed to be somewhere close to the new 15W-40 oil i added, atleast it was not noticeably thicker. I couldn't figure out how to remove the suction strainer, but i inspected it in situ through a drainplug and it looked fine. On the test run i saw an improvement, but it still feels weak, even at full temperature. I have ordered a pressure test kit, so that's the next step. Pardon me if this sounds stupid, but im having doubts about how much performance i should really expect. The only reference i have for how a loader drives is with brand new Volvo loaders, L70 and L90. Those are 40 years apart from my old Fiatallis. Is it normal for these old loaders to feel a bit sluggish? Should it take about 100 meters/300 feet with flatout full throttle on level pavement to start approaching max speed? Should it be necessary to drop down to third gear for driving up a slight slope? Looking at the 645 that Matt is driving around in on Diesel Creek, he seems to get alot more movement out of alot less throttle than what i do. That loader has an allison tranny i think. I have not been able to test how it pushes into a pile of gravel, because i haven't repaired the bucket yet. Oh, and check out this very optimistic weld repair someone did on the right steering cylinder. The handiwork of a real professional, i can tell... Glad i caught that in time. Cheers.
Another update. I checked the length of the dipstick and made shure the breather fitting is clear, so i can confirm that the oil level was between 50-70 mm below output axle center during the following tests. Most of the instrument cluster does not work, so i got hold of an IR thermometer to check the temperatures with. Engine temp measured at the waterpump housing leveled off at 61°C at idle, my thermostat must be bad. Transmission temperature got up to 52°C measured at the filter, so my transmission is running a bit cold. I finally got to try the new pressure test kit, but the gauges were of a pretty low quality and the lowest range i could use was 0-100 bar, so the results might not be super accurate. Holding the gauge upside down made the reading differ by about 2 bar:/ The machine has six ready made testpoints at the outside of the frame with hoses running to the different ports on the transmission, the testpoints are unmarked but i worked out where they went through trial and error. Tests were performed at the temperatures mentioned above, at low idle, handbrake on. The range clutch pressures were measured with the FWD/REV lever in neutral position. 1st gear: 12,0 bar 2nd gear: 11,5 bar 3rd gear: 11,0 bar 4th gear: 10,0 bar On the FWD/REV clutches i only saw pressure while in 3rd gear which confused me, but i've since realized that the handbrake might disable the 1st and 2nd gear. In 4th gear i believe the FWD/REV clutches are bypassed hence why it has only 3 speeds back and 4 speeds forward. FWD clutch: 9,5 bar REV clutch: 9,5 bar The pressures were checked in the order they are listed here, and the steadily dropping pressure going down the list might be explained by the oil temperature rising a bit more throughout the test. Sadly i forgot to check the temperatures again after completing the test. The service manual for the loader is on my other computer, but if i remember correctly the pressure should be 15+-2 bar on each clutch. I have not yet checked any of the other pressure test points listed in the ZF manual Bigbert sendt me beyond those 6. Revving the engine did only increase the pressure very slightly, 0,5 bar ish. The oil i drained last week has been sitting undisturbed in a white pail to see if anything would sediment out of it, but i found nothing on the bottom as i poured it out. The oil had a murky color to it, which combined with the low operating pressure has me wondering if some of the clutches might be slipping a little bit. I could not feel any burnt smell from the old oil, but because of all the wonderful pollen in the air i wouldn't expect to be smelling much of anything anyway. I took the old filter apart, and it was surprisingly clean. I dont think it had many hours on it. All i could find was a few specs of a rubberlike material, maybe from a deteriorating hose or a damaged O-ring. No traces of any metals or friction material whatsoever. I've attached an image of one of the larger specs. Oh, and i discovered that the accelerator pedal has a tight spot in it, which i must use some force on the pedal to overcome. So i've never actually driven it at quite full throttle before now. On a machine i'm not yet familiar with and without a working instrument cluster, that was not an obvious thing. That did make an improvement in the performace. So in conclusion so far, i need to sort out the thermostat issue so i can test again on the proper operating temperature. But it does look like i have an issue with the clutches operating pressure. The fact that the pressure dropped further as the temperature rose, that suggest a bad pump or an internal leak, but if so i would expect the pressure to be more affected by the engine speed, so that's inconclusive. I also need to check the other pressure test points listed, and i'll see if i can conjure up a flowtest for the oilfilter circuit and the oil cooler circuit. Also, there's this sensor on the RH side of the transmission which has its wires cut, i've been trying to figure what sort of sensor this is. Please check the attached images. My intuition is that it's a speed sensor, but i got no luck googling for it. Any hints here would be appreciated. Thanks for your attention, Cheers.
Hi BigBert and FTV any chance you could share the manual?
Hi DeeGee, did you receive the manual I shared in a HEF reply? Else let me know, will send diectly to your mail.
Hi BigBert, thanks for the share. It didn’t come through. Could you or email to [email protected] .