Ford F650 approx year 2015 w V10 automatic and a box van body has a Wabco hydraulic brake. Said unit (in between the frame rails behind the cab) developed a leak at one of the accumulators. Took it to the International Dealer as there are no nearby Ford Heavy Duty dealers and they were comfortable to address the Wabco unit. Whole unit had to be changed "as there are no user serviceable parts". Replacement part came from Wabco and they had a heck of a time with the software achieving the necessary steps when the part was replaced: they called Wabco and then called the service manager at a Ford Heavy Duty Truck dealer (160 miles away) and success, the brakes work. But (isn't there always these days? LOL) the truck now has a check engine light which it didn't have at the instance when the brakes were seen leaking, it was stopped and towed to this dealer w only visible leak of brake fluid - no warning or check engine lights. The shop manager said they don't have a Fault Tree logic setup to do the diagnostic with the Ford, they said they tried various scan tools and code readers to fit the OBDII connection - but can not resolve the check engine light. I have not been informed of what exactly they observe when they try the code readers / scan tools - but I am assuming this is a case of modern non compatible software tools. Here is my wonderment: Is there any particular reason the dealer may have the correct software over and above a "typical code reader / scan tool"? Not really keen on towing the truck ($$$) but don't want to drive it with check engine light especially that far ... especially if the brake isn't really fixed and this code is a side effect of this Wabco replacement action. Sorry for lack of any other details, is not my truck but is at one of my customers' facility. But I can always ask more questions. Am getting the idea it sometimes isn't the truck as much as it the proximity to the dealer. They deliberately did not buy an International (which is our only closest dealer) as they were terribly fumbling with engines and emissions etc.
Is there any particular reason the dealer may have the correct software over and above a "typical code reader / scan tool"? The dealer will have IDS. The OEM software. Like you discovered, there is a big difference between a Ford dealership and a Ford dealership that does medium duty. 160 miles is no big deal. I have to fly Ford Techs to Dutch Harbor to program a F550 I’m tasked with maintaining.
Lol. This one time, I sent a Ford guy to St. George Island to do a 5 hour HPOP on a F550. The weather came in and he was stuck for 21 days. Invoice was 168 hours for a HPOP swap, 20 nights lodging, 63 meals, and two charted flights.
He did get to go clubbing with the locals, I hear. Alaska style. Seals that is.
Actually this is the problem with want to be trucks. It's nothing more than a car with a bed and not enough dealers and parts to support the full line of what they build. Trucks of this size are in no mans land, too big to fit in most parking spots and too small to really do anything. Parts by dealer only has to be supported for 12 years. Large trucks support can run 20 to 25 years.
Kendall Ford is the Alaska Ford Commercial Vehicle Dealer, on paper. Actually, trying to get them to work on a commercial vehicle is a different story. Same for trying to purchase a new rig or even parts. That’s speaking as a fleet manager for the largest fuel distributor in the state. There is an upfitter in Anchorage with some sort of agreement with FoMoCo which allows them to do the pre-delivery inspection and a certain level of warranty work. Order from a dealer and the truck is shipped directly to them. There is a outstanding independent Ford Shop in Anchorage that specializes in commercial and diesel. But, they don’t travel. There is a excellent indi Ford dude in Wasilla. Have wrench will travel. He’s very good. Out of all the medium -duty brands, Ford has a lot of advantages. Hate to say, but I’ve had great luck with Isuzu, too. I want to hate them, but I’ve had great luck getting parts and they are reliable. The Isuzu software is easy to purchase. Easier than purchasing & maintaining Ford IDS.
Midway Truck Center in KC is the place to purchase Ford Medium Duty.
Now this is a Ford medium duty photo thread.
KC is a long way to go for anyone living on the fringes. Where I'm at ford dropped their dealership and folks have to drive 55 miles, so they lost 90% of their sales in this area to dodge.
Funny story time. I just purchased PK14 from Midway with a Morgan van and Palfinger gate. Got some marketing money from Chevron for the wrap. Basic upfitts, snow wheels and studs, tool boxes, marathon seat covers and weather tech mats, yada, yada. Pride of the warehouse fleet. first week on the road, warehouse driver spills a unsecured drum of 80w-90 in the van while jockeying around at a customers loading dock. ! 80w-90 pouring out of every seam of the van onto the customer’s parking lot. The public entrance to the business was nearby. Foot traffic 80w-90 into the customer’s building and new carpet. Holy cow. It only gets worse. Warehouse Manager arrives with a cleanup crew. Manager thinks it would be a good idea to use gallons of straight undiluted Superclean degreaser to wash the 80w-90. Absolutely ruined the finish on the aluminum and everything other surface that got the treatment. I spend four days cleaning up the rig, removing toolboxes, polishing aluminum, repairing the undercoating, and there was still 80w-90 dripping out of nooks and crannies for a month.
Spent thousands of $ cleaning the parking lot and purchasing new carpet for the customer.
Yeah-------------Well I can beat that-------A jackass driver years ago making a drop of 10,000 gallons of Bunker oil for furnace boiler at Bluewood Ski Resort by Dayton. Apparently this guy couldn't tell the difference between the smell of Bunker and **** and couldn't read either. He dumped 5,000 gallons of bunker in a 7,500 gallon Septic tank system. The whole system had to be excavated.
OMG! Driver was probably very confused about why his UST product elbow didn’t connect. Lol.
Uh-this was 45 years ago.
F650 with a gas job? Kill it with fire, that's the only acceptable solution.
Our little burg has opted to continue use of 550/650 size trucks both in Ford(local dealer cannot service as no certified techs for them) and GM (again the close by selling dealer has no qualified techs). Dodge dealer tried to sell the city on their version (and has certified techs) but is some form of angst between city managers and the trucking company family that owns the dealership so they(both sides) lost out.
Thanks for the info about the Ford software - I wonder if any local truck repair shops may have purchased the IDS software? Asking this rhetorically of course as I can spend Monday am inquiring about this tooling. We made a couple calls to towing companies about the cost and schedule for the tow but have not heard back yet. It is pretty clear that having a local dealer is sometimes very convenient.
The progress so far is: the local KW shop and a shop that does some DoD fleet work .... both had no software to address the Ford. The local Ford dealership service writer said they can do this work but (a) they are not on the Commercial Vehicle Service published by Ford and (b) another local Ford dealership said they could go to the 550 but the 650 is totally different software and they can not do the job. Going to continue searching for a shop that has the software for the 650 series Ford.
It's been a long time since I've seen a gas F650, thank god, but I thought they all had the obd2 and 9 pin too just like the diesel jobs. I don't think they'll get much from the obd connector since I think that only talks to stuff like the GEM, it might talk to the PCM on the 6.8, don't recall. I think the wabco stuff is on on the J1939 thru the 9 pin.
From what I was told it is OBD2....kind of surprised the truck went there w no light somehow suddenly has one - keep in mind they also reported difficulty with the software and the wabco....am concerned they are doing a sidestep as they dont / wont / cant fix the check engine ..... is it really possible a international dealer repair shop doesn't have the OBD2 in their repertoire of tools? On one hand I guess it could be as they simply are able to utilize the Cummins and or the International software and that gets em to where they want to be. Could it be as simple as this: (analogy rhetorical) "The machine is fixed" .... "Whaddabout that loose bolt" .... "I left that bolt loose 'cause I dont have a metric wrench for that size"
OBD2 was Automotive based for gasoline Engines initially, i seriously doubt a IH dealer that does not sell a production gasoline engine since IH discontinued their production/use by mid 1980s in medium duty machines would have OBD2 equipment.
I contacted the sales rep for some popular software system sometimes mentioned on this forum and the rep indicated there was indeed some form of gizmo for around $8k that could handle the Ford 650 Gasser. I dreamed up the idea to determine if Snap On could furnish this type of test and repair instrument and if so, who locally would have bought this type of tooling .... and bingo! got one place that also did mobile mechanic. Said tool apparently was big dollar - but it reloaded some file and did some scans etc and then he started up the truck and it continued the analysis etc and then the light was cleared. FIXED and now have the mechanic shop pretty local - no need to go 100 miles for a dealer. Many thanks!
Wow. Good news and thanks for the update. All your footwork paid off.
Update: since 2021 event the Snap On tool and guru independent mechanic was called two more times for what were pretty quick repairs: A) last year event - determined the battery was not quite maintaining the correct voltage (owner's bad, it was five plus years old, and nevertheless started the truck well) & the contacts to the comm bus in the wiring loom to parts were assembled dry with no special contact "goo", and B) earlier this year same issue w the warning lights and this time it got a positive voltage jumper to help the OEM wiring harness deliver the power more suitably. Last month, the red dash lights came on 'again' and the hair pulling has begun - Wabco unit not responding to any of the troubleshooting guidelines. And to further add worry to the situation, we have learned a well respected supply chain rebuild/reman shop gave up their opportunity to rebuild these units as they experienced way too many warranty claims. In this case, these rebuilt units do last past the warranty, but in the history of this truck (bought from the Penske fleet) this owner has had item repaired with a rebuilt unit at least twice. Sidebar: Annual mileage is less than 5000 miles - all in town usage. Which is why they chose gas to avoid DPF issues the diesel engine would create. But a diesel would have air brakes .... hmm. Looks like they will be going to buy a 'new' Wabco part instead of rebuilt for greater co$t but expected longer parts life. This one item is getting to be an achilles plus the added cost of a rental truck from Enterprise while this truck is in the shop. Will add another update as I learn more.
It seems Ford tries alot of stuff out that isnt the best . They bought 2 Fords were i work that had Lucas Girling brakes and ran off propane they were a nightmare . I worked night and day getting them useable . Looking back i should have gotten alot more than i did for making them usable. There are alot of deals that have gone on with trucks over the years that makes you think why ?
Here is the link to the manual for the HPB brake system. https://www.zf.com/products/media/automotive/cv/literature_downloads_wna/truck_solutions/hydraulic_power_brake_maintenance_manuals/MM0401_web.pdf The unit has two 30 amp power supplies and two grounds Make sure they load test the power supplies and grounds. Just because the power supplies will light a test light does not mean they are good. I use a headlight with a H4 80/100 watt bulb and use both filaments. That is 180 watts so 15 amps. Two customers this year so far came to our shop wanting to buy a new ABS unit. When they found out the price they went back with my headlight and properly load tested the power supplies and found there was a connectivity problem and there was nothing wrong with the unit. If you scan the HPB system with the factory software it first scans for J1939 devices and does not find any then it scans and finds the hydraulic unit on the unit on the J1587 data link. If the unit does need to be replaced you will need the parameter file from the old unit as it has to be downloaded into the new unit. You can get the parameter file from Ford but it might be a challange finding someone that knows where to find it.
We have the truck in the shop where it remains while we spend money on a rental unit .... in this particular case, using the SnapOn test unit and some other tools which allow the mechanic to determine the pressure sensor has gone haywire but this is not a replaceable part. We have put two rebuilt units into the truck -these are about $3k each plus the install. They have broken shortly after the one year warranty. A little bird informed us about a fairly large truck part rebuilder who gave up the Wabco product line as to it being too much of a hassle and warranty call backs etc etc. We had the bright idea to get a new unit instead of rebuilt: $10k from dealer, $8k aftermarket but these are on "backorder". **To Mekanik: Thank you for the suggestion to load test the circuit ... is a really good idea. But this time is the sensor. Just wanted to update the status for this forum entry. Really do appreciate the assistance. Seems as though this system is problematic and the folks w schoolbuses arent pleased either.
During the last coupla months, the repair shop has run out of options in the supply chain to replace the unit with a new one, or another 'rebuilt' one. The owner settled up for the diagnostic effort and the battery was dead (due to sitting for so long).... At this point they will take the truck back to their business - with no warning buzzer but a icon on the dash indicating 'brake'. The pedal response is excellent in all the test modes, and to recap the story: the mechanic's test instrument reports a bad pressure sensor in the unit - but no individual repair parts are authorized or available. This explains the warning light. Indeed, one can postulate if another problem manifests, then how to determine - etc etc. The truck owner will likely commission one of their staff to commence a search high and low for a unit. Wrecking yard may be the last resort - yikes. My intitial searches using google showed two places listing the item, but it was backordered in both website locations. The Ford OEM situation for these trucks designates only certain dealer locations as a commercial truck center and one of the closest is 150 miles away. The repair shop contacted the place by phone and email and got no response, followup yielded nothing and then one new worker to the parts place thought the system indicated the OEM parts book (their data base) had a code for the part ~ which meant obsoleted. Possibly it is as simple as a new number replace it, but that is a hopeful wish. Summary: cost of three or four replacement events with this part and the rental cost, has exceeded the amount they paid initially for this truck out of the Leasing Company fleet. Granted inflation alters this calculation and there has been a lot of that lately. The usual big place (wholesale upstream) that rebuilds these items dropped this product line entirely cause they were repairing them and tested them sat but they wouldnt last the one year warranty period and they couldnt get reimbused from Wabco - so they didnt renew their contract for the rebuilder task. The only rock left to lift is the one where they can find a replacement part. 2015 Ford F650 Brake Hydraulic Compact Unit with ECU. (Looks like a big block of aluminum with two pressure domes and some gizmo's attached to the surface of the block). At first glance the contrivance seems like a novel idea - ABS, contingency brake hydraulic power, power boost etc etc all in the unit and out of the engine compartment....then realization occurs. Not happy posting all this sordid news on the forum - like it a lot better where we can all review a Solution.
What became of the original hydraulic compact unit the one with the rusted accumulator? The accumulators are a serviceable part. Getting new ones might be a problem though.
What’s the part number for the assembly? Are we talking about the 9C4Z2X405D, with ECU version 8 ?
Ford was notorious for a Not in the Parts Guides Diodes on the brake systems as these. Appear as a Bullet Style Connector only with a large Plasticized Rubber body inline in wiring, M/F plugs at either end. Found this on older 700s and 800s that retained the Hydraulic braking systems. Check the harnesses to the brake components. Sorry do not have a sample or photo.
The core charge is no small amount - every repair the shop returned the core - which we didnt mind cause we thought no use to try and fix an item that has no repair parts available. Have heard this "non (end user) repairable part" story has occurred on other vehicles. Also interesting thought: What will happen at the dealer - what category of part will we get? Why do I ask this: cause I am surmising the core will be required to be returned although the part may be represented as new (have had this happen on parts for other vehicles -not common but did happen). In those cases, the counter person had no real idea as to why. The part could be represented as 'new' simply for the reason that most parts out of that source are indeed 'new': ergo it is out of the Ford Company parts book - but that doesnt mean that Wabco and Ford complete the supply using Wabco rebuilds. Cause if there are no parts the vehicles value is scrap, and that would not make owners happy. Thats one hand of 'downside what iffing'. This truck owner could be spending funds for the transport to the shop and a higher parts price and get the same thing otherwise that a local independent shop can accomplish. The other side is maybe (hope LOLOL) just maybe, the part is a 'better rebuild' cause the specs tween Ford and Wabco are stricter....and another hope is the part could be upgraded (a will fit part with improvements). ~~~ I have discussed this parts performance / reliability issue with some shop owner mechanics - and they basically say 'yes the dealer sourced parts are more costly ~ but they prolly are (statistically) a better quality'. Things I have read in trade publications state the dealer supplied OEM parts are at their best as long as that part still fits something on the vehicle assembly line; once the item is no longer supplied there due to model changes etc, then the value process begins. And have met folks who actually worked at a local (now closed) wholesale upstream starter alternator rebuild center and the part was excellently beautified but with as little replacement parts added ~ then sold as 'rebuilt' all day every day. Then of course are the improved aftermarket parts. As the vehicle owner - puzzle over how this is to be determined in this particular case. Slot machine time. Coin flip. Will keep this updated - as next week the truck heads to the OEM dealers shop. Many thanks to all ye for the assistance. Maybe will be able to get clarity as to the part number situation if I also go to the dealership as someone must ferry the driver back home.
The closest Ford Commercial Truck dealer and repair center is about 130 miles away.....we contacted, made an appointment, and sent an email with pics and a summary of the issue and asked for a brand new unit sourced thru Ford Parts system. "Throwing bigger money at it" because - just maybe - the units we had replaced with reman units simply had inherent long term reliability issues. The dealer's service writer, the parts guru, the technician mechanic called and during the conference call they reported unfortunately they had no source for a new part or even a reman part from or through Ford; per that dealer's policy they normally source all their parts through the OEM ~ but they would try to find something from an aftermarket supplier. I thanked them profusely for corroborating and saving us the trip for no result and their time would also not have been used efficiently. Getting desparate, I next wrote an email to Wabco ZF (Keep in mind this is a 2015 and Wabco departed Meritor in 2017 and around 2020 became associated w ZF) and nevertheless they kindly supplied information: a part number for a New Unit and a part number for a Service Exchange unit (whatever is that?) and a part number for a Reman unit. Now looking for the new part ....... will advise on next steps.
To the above inquiry (post #30) about the part number from Wabco: 400 851 876 0 (new) 400 851 876 7 (Service Exchange) 400 851 876 x (Reman)
About $ six large. Ouch.
I believe new ones are available through an International dealer.
Still the same---three years later.
There was a very good reason Meritor dumped Wabco, but that's for future class 8 threads.
Looks like my NAPA Traction guy can pull one from the Seattle DC. I’ve mentioned it before, when I was with big oil, the cost per mile to operate a medium duty Ford was the same as a KW T370 or Freightliner M2 with a single axle. With the added benefit nobody wants to work on the Ford when they breakdown.
That's a fact Jack.
On a rare occasion, juice brakes can save the day. I ordered a T270 this one time to try out. It was more reliable than the F-Series, but that was a sample of one. We had one terminal that was unionized at the time and the politics dictated a non CDL rig.
If have to use a halfassed design over reach Juice brake system to avoid a License requirement, how good are they really? Can remember all the old Juice Brake Orscheln lever park brake oversized pickups in use from farms to small business in the 50s/60s/70s, maintenance messes. GM with IH and Ford tried hard to maintain that into the 80s where GM was the last hold out. IH is now selling a GM derivative as their own and GM is back at it with their own and still piles of self destructing crap. All the 550, 5000 series machines are short life limited duty overly abused machines. Just step into a class 7 and avoid the headaches.
It's all about skirting cdl--Beginning to think CDL's should be dropped anyways, What's the point these days, There is no specialty about anything, everyone is a do anything know anything. Hell everyone is a contractor, welder, mechanic, operator, designer, electrician, plumber, carpenter, hydraulics expert, pilot, crop duster, expert mathematician, CPA, business lawyer, criminal lawyer physician of every sort, crane/lifting experts, sea/river boat captions, nuclear physicists, and more than likely a few I left out----oh here's one farmer. All confirmed by the Smart Phone in their pocket. * All that for $25 bucks in a mail order degree.
Lots of typing and searching and phone calling ~ found a unit with the last digit as zero, they didnt ask for a core....we sent them the money: about 6 large. ETA Friday Sep 20th. The interesting thing is the online Wabco Distributor Locator for our area showed two companies: FleetPride and TruckPro .... both these about 150 miles away. Are these places pretty good for parts as a general rule? Have no prev experience of knowledge of either. One was able to tell us the part is in their list, but essentially has a no end date for the backlog because Wabco said they arent making or repairing these due to their internal lack of parts. Their price was $6k after we returned the core. The other one indicated they had not sold a reman item in the last four years but they have moved a couple / few new ones (of this part number ending in the zero). No price or availability sent yet. The place we sent the money to is in NCarolina and (FWIW to mention) they are not on the Wabco distributor list. Yes we will 'study' to make sure the tracking number isnt taken out as a shipping label created (only) and they are actually shipping the part. It seems prices for reman units (figured after the core is returned) are similar or slightly more than the new units, given what few prices were shown on internet searching. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ As an aside because of the California battle against the diesel engine, and the short trips worry about diesel emission equipment, this Ford was selected knowing it was an second tier vehicle but was the only choice for gas engine. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ The "Hail Mary" may be this mod: so to speak "find" an older juice brake truck that has front disc and rear drum, obtain the similar brake booster parts from that model, remove the Wabco and install that secondary vacuum booster with the extra canister - the olde days method to get power juice brakes on a medium duty....one brake line to the front wheels and one brake line to the rear wheels.
fleet pride or truck pro are normally expensive as a rule.
I like fleedpride for brake components, always had them in stock or next day. Lots of filters too. I don't know how the price is comparable though
They appear to beat everyone’s price on brake drums when they bring in container loads.
I used Freightliner dealers allot--my price break with them was considerable. Plus I looked at Fleetpride as a chain Auto Zone.
Exactly. Kinda the Autozone of the truck parts world. The especially ghetto one on the corner with all the trash in the parking lot, homeless peeps, stacks of used batteries and large oil slicks you have to walk around.
KW here in CoMO beat everyone hands down for my Stop Boxes and Drums. In Stock, delivered for Fuel Surcharge to My Shop.
For me it's convenance--I delt with so many, they all knew me and still do. For anything personal I still get the same price break as when I worked for the company. Same with tires--tire dealer we used still gives me 10% off on tires.
I won’t ever get that great a break
Since Pape’ purchased Kenworth Northwest, the local branch has became very competitive on parts. I like my past experiences with MHC. Not Missouri, but Iowa. Great people. KW gave me a $5k transportation bonus one each new rig purchase, which paid for the trip from DesMoines to Seattle. Almost seamless transition from factory to the body builder. Kenworth pre-drilling the holes in the frame for mounting the tanks. Putting the air dryer in the correct spot. Exhaust & DEF tanks.
Our own here is a MHC in CoMO that I tend to deal with. Central Illinois Trucks(CIT) is the seller cutting pricing for the current employer on W990s and the last run of 900s in Fenton, not impressed with the lightweight kits as appear as Pete single bag Suspensions rebranded for KW. Ride like crap, torque lift on startoffs and shifts. Competitive for weight yet still a tad heavy against other makes.
Very hard pressed to find a Ford dealer with capable medium- duty techs. Please list some if you know any. Ford Pro has outsourced most of the medium duty stuff to privately owned upfitter shops and RV service companies. When I purchase a new Ford medium-duty, it doesn’t even go to a dealer. It goes directly from Avon Lake to the upfitter. The upfitter does the warranty work, too.
In the midst of the week past, received a brand new unit from a vendor out of NC. Id'd as new per email info intel from Wabco ZF customer care center - the last digit as a Zero is a new unit. Part and truck to mechanics shop (the shop with that Snap on diagnostic unit). More to follow as known.
as indicated previously: Fleetpride and Truckpro, as well the Ford Commercial truck dealer could produce No Part. The part from the place in NC is a brand new unit (based upon the mfg label) and it has been installed and the truck is back in service. For what it is worth mentioning, the previous unit was in fact a New Unit and not a reman as I may have inferred/stated. That installed as a new unit (not reman) approximately one and a half years ago is now no good as it has a dash warning code because an internal pressure sensor is not functioning. I asked the mechanic should I buy another unit to have as a spare and that was met with a resounding "No". I also noticed a newer Ford F650 at the lumber yard with a Cummins and juice brakes: the brake system in no way was like the Wabco unit. Couldnt find a nameplate on it but all the goodies are in the master cylinder and not tucked into the frame below the cab. A truck leasing rep happened to mention the preferred route is Freightliner and or International since Ford is likely to keep back some of the software for repairs to favor their dealers. This story is dear to me cause this malady could have been easily me getting a newer 5 yd bobtail dump from the rental yard cause they typically have these F650 chassis with a dump for the rental marketplace.
The alternative to the Wabco HPB system is the Bosch Hydro-Max booster and master cylinder coupled with a Simple Wabco ABS unit. The booster uses flow from the power steering pump and has a integral backup electric pump. https://1999southwind.com/DOWNLOAD/Bosch%20HydroMax%20Booster%20Manual.pdf The ABS unit is not serviceable but is a fraction of the cost of the HPB unit and also very reliable. https://www.zf.com/products/media/automotive/cv/literature_downloads_wna/truck_solutions/abs_maintenance_manuals_/MM38_web_1.pdf
Thanks Mr Mekanik, I very much appreciate your knowledge and experience. Tis unfortunate for these folks this truck was rigged with the other style ergo "Wabco HPB".
Time for a transplant or next fail scrapyard.