So I have what I believe is a 1997 New Holland 555E and have a curl cylinder that is leaking and will be attempting to change the seals but have run into a problem with the seal kits for this cylinder. Seems that Ford/New Holland changed the gland that goes in that cylinder and because the old style gland is discontinued, so are the rebuild kits for it. Seems that all the currently sold kits are for the new style gland and they do not fit the old gland. I have seen info that explained that the seals should all still available for this gland, so I was wondering does anyone know if the old seal kits are even available or does anyone know where to get the old gland seal kits.
Welcome to New Holland cylinder rebuilding. I haven't done a curl cylinder yet. SWETS should be along shortly with some guidance.
The catch is different years will encounter different hurdles. My machine was built in 98 and so far every cylinder has gone down a rabbit hole. This is why I want a paper parts manual with an early copyright.
Are you talking about the front bucket curl or the backhoe bucket curl?
Front bucket curl cylinder
So I just got off the phone with my local new holland parts dealer and he has to do more checking but says that depending on the particular backhoe serial number...I might have to buy the piston as well as the gland...rabbit hole...
The parts guy did mention something about New Holland bringing back certain cylinder seal kits, but only mentioned it and then quickly changed the subject...hope he doesn't get amnesia when I ask him again about it if my machine happens to be the one that needs both the gland and piston replaced cuz I would rather buy just the seal kit.
Ok, I can confirm that on my 1999 675E the kit listed for your machine fit, without problems. I have attached the diagram from Messicks. I have also included a link to the place that I purchased my kits. You will notice that they are substantially less expensive than the NH price. The kit is a Hercules brand kit. https://cea-services.com/products/85804740-seal-kit-fits-ford?_pos=1&_sid=978c81307&_ss=r
It may help if you have your gland removed from the rod, so that the parts guy can determine what you have.
Additional notes: The gland is not threaded on. There is a wire between the gland and the barrel that will come out as the gland is loosened. You will get a new wire in the kit. You can see the end of the wire in this pic This is how I supported it to remove the rod bolt Cylinder supported. You need to remove the side cover in order to get the lower pin out. That will allow you to pull the rod end off the linkage.
In my PDF parts manual it lists a version 1 and 2 cylinder but I can't find a serial number split to differentiate which model had which cylinder. If I were a betting man I would bet your hoe has the early cylinder. FYI your serial number is stamped in the frame on the right side by the engine cover. Cliff at CEA may have some notes in his book to help you decide. (813) 365-0042 https://cea-services.com/products/85802567-seal-kit-fits-ford?_pos=1&_sid=5ab7d4f90&_ss=r EDIT: It looks like version 1 has the holes in the face of the gland nut and version 2 has the notches like Swetz's cylinder has. Loader Control Cylinder Page 1.88.11/ 1 Kit #85802567 Page 1.88.11/ 2 Kit #85804740
Just got off the phone again with the parts dealer and he says that it is not required to buy both the piston shaft and the gland ...but if the gland that is currently in the cylinder has a squared shoulder then it needs to be replaced with a new gland and seal kit...but if it has a rounded shoulder then the gland does not need to be replaced and can be reused with a new seal kit and the gland is $230.00 and the seal kit is another $121.00 so roughly $350.00. If you are lucky enough to already have the correct gland (with the rounded shoulder)...you can purchase just the seal kit, which according to this parts guy now comes in two separate kits...one for each end...$220 for one kit for the gland and $121 for the other end...and thats without the gland. Makes absolutely no sense...may as well get the new gland and seal kit for a little more money. So if I'm LUCKY enough to already have the correct round shouldered gland I can pay almost as much as a new gland AND seal kit.
My 98 built machine has the version 2 gland.
Here's what I would do. If your gland has the Version 2 notches like Swetz I would order the 85804740 kit from CEA. https://cea-services.com/products/85804740-seal-kit-fits-ford?_pos=1&_sid=978c81307&_ss=r If it has the holes in the face like the Version 1 picture I would order the 85802567 kit. https://cea-services.com/products/85804740-seal-kit-fits-ford?_pos=1&_sid=978c81307&_ss=r Good luck with the repair and keep us informed how it goes.
My advice is in line with NH575E...Spend the $35 and take a gamble that you get the correct kit. You do not need the gland nut if you have the version 2. The kit was correct for me.
Thanks for the info Swetz...I'll be picking up a seal kit asap.
Sorry, didn't mean to leave you out...thanks NH575E...and also for the PDF manual advice.
Just hung up with CEA services and by their suggestion ordered the 85804740 seal kit for $34.48, with shipping around $41.50. He was looking at multiple cross references and he even said it was difficult to nail down which seal kit and acknowledged the cluster fox that Ford New Holland made here. But I'll try that before spending the bigger bucks on all that other mess, which I probably will do if the kit fails. Thanks to all who helped and I'll post an update when I get it done...
What I meant was that they agreed with what Swetz and NH575 said first.
You can look the seals over pretty good without opening the package. CEA will take returns. When I did my crowd cylinder there were 3 possible kits. I ordered all 3. One had everything but a wiper seal that fit. I returned the 2 kits that wouldn't work and had to order a wiper seal by size off eBay.
That sounds like a good idea...I'll contact CEA again and ask to add the other kit.
I hope to keep this thread in mind when I inevitably go to replace some seals on my machine. My main boom cylinder is pretty dang wet all the time now, as is one of my stabilizers... I dread the task but you guys are mighty knowledgeable about this stuff, and it sounds like CEA will be a great resource.
aighead, here is a thread on stabilizers. When you are ready just ask questions. HeavyEquipmentForums
That wasn't my point in your case. It seems the variables for the bucket control cylinders are pretty well defined. Backed with Swetz experience it sounds like the kit listed for the notched gland is a safe bet.
I will share my cylinder rebuild threads as well. I have encountered different hurdles than Swetz has so all NH cylinders are not created equal. This was my first cylinder rebuild ever and was on my stabilizer. The long and short of it was the only kit listed had the main parts needed but the rod bearing and wiper seals did not fit. I reused my old rod bearing and turned the opening for the wiper seal in a lathe so the seal in the kit would fit. I later did the same on my other stabilizer. HeavyEquipmentForums Here was my thread on the crowd cylinder. This has a boat load of info from both Swetz and I. HeavyEquipmentForums
If you send the old seals to Hercules they will match them up and send the right stuff. Joe H
Thanks guys. I'm pretty intimidated by rebuilding these things. I think I'm capable, if I can actually get them apart but, man, just looking for some filters for this beast left me pretty confused. I can't imagine seals and junk that are all kinds of different stuff.
I'm pretty sure I should start another thread but I'll put this out here and probably start another one..Was wondering if anyone has heard of "peening" to help free up stuck glands in cylinders...its where you use the flat side of a medium sized ball peen hammer to tap (rather firmly according to some) the end of the cylinder where it meets the gland, in about the last two inch area at the edge of the cylinder you strike the cylinder and then moving over around 1/16 of an inch, continue striking the cylinder, in a line, about an inch or two in length. You do that all around the cylinder with each line of strikes equidistant from each other. The thinking is that the light peening slightly distresses the metal and helps break the corrosion bond between the gland and the cylinder without causing damage to the cylinder. I'll try to post a pic of the cylinder showing the pattern of peen marks. There's a youtube video about it and some folks swear that it helped loosen some really frozen cylinders even after using cheater bars and heat and air chisels to try freeing them up.
Doesn't look like much of a gap if any between peen marks on some of the rows
Definitely heard of peening, but don't know if it's effective. It works on a stuck pickle jar lid if I peen it with a butter knife handle. I assume it's a similar idea.
Willie59 was the creator of the peening method many years ago and posted the procedure here on HEF. Posted in 2009 ---> HeavyEquipmentForums
I think peening is an old school mechanics trick. Have used the method for years to loosen stuck stuff. Sometimes add heat to the process. Sometimes nothing seems to work except a longer pipe and brute force.
here is another pic from the other conversation mentioned earlier, that gives a better look
Anyone use the old farmers recipe for a version of Kroil...40% acetone and 60% transmission fluid to help free up the gland?
Scoutcrafter from youtube swears by that stuff. I have used the peening method to loosen cylinders for around 30 years. Works damn near every time!
Just wondered if that recipe is ok on seals n such.
I am not thinking I would use it on the new seals. I just use petroleum jell on the new stuff, as a lubricant. It will readily mix with the hydraulic oil once it warms up.
If you’re gonna use a little heat on the gland, I have used a wax toilet gasket for years and it works every time. Get it warm enough for the wax to suck into the threads and it works.
Or melt a candle into the threads.
What holds this wiper in? Magic? post #29
You are using a fresh gasket, correct...just had to ask...LOL
I have always criticized folks who start a thread and never end up replying with the end result and find myself as guilty as any...especially including this thread. I never finished this particular job because I ended up having some extreme medical problems that compromised my ability to think clearly...not that my thinking abilities were all that good to begin with, but I am sort of on the road to recovery and am attempting to continue with repair work that I was forced to stop. I realize that this thread is old and no one probably cares but I do and whenever and whatever I come up with, I will try to post results.
We absolutely care! Glad you are on the mend and check back when you can with the update.
Second that...Glad you are on the mend!
Well, I got side tracked and worked on other things that needed correcting on my 555e. Cleaning the hydraulic tank and replacing the in tank filter, which was damaged. But, I finished that other stuff and plan to finally get to finishing this hydraulic cylinder rebuild. The only thing that I am still confused about was how to tell a round shoulder gland from a square shoulder gland. So after calling a couple of different new holland parts dealers and asking the shoulder question... they couldn't give me a definite answer on it either...I am guessing that the gland with the notches on the edge would be the square shoulder gland and the gland with the 4 round holes in the face would be the round shoulder gland, but thats just my guess. If anyone knows for sure I'd appreciate it if they could clarify this. On page 1, post # 13, of this thread, NH575 posted a drawing of the two types of glands that are or were available for this cylinder. The reason I said were is because I watched all the youtube videos that were mentioned in post # 42, and in one of the videos he talks about how the seal kit for his/my old style of gland were changed and according to the video, they no longer sell the old style gland seal kit and the new seal kit required him to also purchase the new gland. He mentioned what he paid for them in the video but I called the parts dealer today and the new gland, without any seals, is $312.00 and the seal kit for it is $129.50 for a grand total of $441.50. Ouch. So the guy in the youtube video, bit the bullet and bought the new gland and the new seals for it, which went in without any problem. He seemed to feel that the frustration and time that he wasted trying to use the old gland and an aftermarket seal kit, wasn't worth the aggravation and money he felt he wasted on the aftermarket kit because they wouldn't go into the old gland and wished he'd bought the new style gland and seal kit from the start...To make a long post even longer...I was told by my new holland parts guy, that the kit for my old style (what I think) is a square shouldered gland IS available but at a cost of $231.00. I know...one source of info contradicts the other, but still way expensive. I mentioned in an earlier post that I did buy the aftermarket seals and plan to remove the gland and use what I can out of the aftermarket kits and only buy the individual seals that don't or wont work on my old gland. Should be much cheaper. I'll try to post which seals don't work from the aftermarket kit and how much the individual seals from New Holland cost that I will have to buy. I'm thinking after this long winded post that folks are thinking...thats ok...don't bother.
Hey Swetz...did you watch the youtube videos? Did the youtube guy disassemble the tilt cylinder differently than you did...from the other end maybe?
Like I said in the beginning. Everyone's experience will be different. Your's might help someone else along the way so please continue posting what you find.
Kinda. I did not remove the cylinder barrel from the machine. It is a PITA, and not necessary to do. Also, I have the old style gland, and did not update it. I found the seals from CEA first attempt, and they worked no problem. I added RTV to the hole where the metal retainer comes out of the cylinder. This is to keep water and crap out. I have seen cylinders that are frozen together over the years from rust forming.
Hey Swetz, in post #10 on page 1 of this thread, there is a series of pics that you posted along with the caption saying,” You need to remove the side cover in order to get the lower pin out. That will allow you to pull the rod end off the linkage.” I can see how you backed out the lower pin to remove that outer linkage to allow the rod end to slide off, but did you also have to back the pin out on the other end without disconnecting any of the hydraulic lines in order to free that end and totally lift the higher end of the cylinder to get the cylinder completely free so that the rod end could then just slide off?
Oh, yea, I forgot about bar at the rod end. You are correct, I tool the pin out to move the barrel, so that I could get the rod end off. Sorry for the bad info!
Thanks swetz, I appreciate the update and was able to get the cylinder off and found that the steel link on the same side that needs the new gland seals, is supposed to have the hardened steel pin welded to it, and is no longer securely welded and I’m looking into having the hardened pin re-welded to the milder steel link again. Not in any way a welder, but I’ve run into the problem of welding two steels of dissimilar hardness together. I’ve been told by a friend that I am overthinking this, and should just mig weld the end of the hardened pin to the link and not worry about it but have also been told that when welding two types of steel with different hardness that if not done properly, could result in affecting the hardness of the hardened pin (thereby weakening it). The explanation I’ve been given is that tig welding the two different steels and using a filler more closely related to the base (or milder) steel, and paying attention to the pre heating and slowing the cool down temp I might avoid reducing the hardness of the hardened steel pin. By preheating the link to the correct temperature before welding and slowing the cool down temperature, I could reduce the haz (heat affected zone) and prevent this. Like I said…not a welder but trying to make the repair and avoid the $250.00 cost of replacing the pin with a new one. Dang, that was a long and windy post!
Are you saying that the loader crossbar end is broken off? If so, here is one to look at. New Holland Loader Frame Cross Tube (New OEM Take-Off) -- 85801088 Enhance your loader performance with the New Holland Loader Frame Cross Tube. Replace worn-out parts with this OEM take-off for a seamless fit. Shop now! www.brokentractor.com
Best way to weld a milder steel to a harder steel, is just heat up harder steel with a Mapp gas torch for a minute or so and get it good and hot. There are a whole bunch of criteria or rabbit hole we could go down here but if you’re not building a spaceship, just heat it up hot, weld it and leave it alone while it cools.
It’s not the crossbar…but looking at the exploded diagram you posted, if you are looking at the highlighted crossbar, on one end of the crossbar there is a dotted line that indicates where the end of the bar fits into another bar…that flat bar with a hole in each end is identified as a “link” in other exploded view diagrams that I received from my new Hollander parts dealer…so when I refer to those flat bar pieces I will call them links…so if you follow the dotted line it passes through the hole in the link and then through the hydraulic cylinder end and then through the link on the other side and into the outermost link, and ends at a washer or c clip…that outermost link at the end of the dotted line is the link I am talking about. At the opposite end of that last link, is the hole and the pin that I am referring to. That pin, after being inserted into the hole on the end of the link, is then welded to that link and that weld is what has broken loose. I used to know how to post pics and diagrams to my messages but suffered some medical issues that have wiped out a lot of memory. Apologies in advance…but it would make it a lot easier to explain things if someone would be kind enough to explain how to post a pic or diagram…memory is shot but my ability to learn is still there…sort of.
Harley happy, I get where you’re coming from and agree but your comment about building a space ship made me laugh cuz that’s pretty much what one of my welder friend said.
Ok…after looking at this area where I type in my response and clicking on the icons at the top I think I figured out how to post pics….hopefully I’ll be able to make this a little easier to understand
Here are a couple of pics of the link with the pin just setting inside of it. I had removed the pin and ground the old weld off the link
Another pic showing pin and link
This is what the same link on the opposite side
This is what the weld looks like on the corresponding link on the other side…was wondering if anyone with a 555E has that pin welded in
Another pic showing the crack in the weld before removal and cleanup
My links are welded there on both sides.
I looked up the link on Messicks and came up with 85801053 which is discontinued. Below are some used parts. Pardon Our Interruption 85801053 | New Holland LB75B Linkage for Sale New Holland LB75B Linkage, P/N 85801053 for sale. Enjoy our hassle-free online checkout or call to speak to an expert. www.vanderhaags.com Gearflow The mixed-fleet parts solution that works for you, your team, and your vendors so you can turn your parts process into a competitive advantage gearflow.com
Thanks NH575, I thought so. And thanks Swetz, I’m gonna look into the links you provided.
No pun intended
Your pin looks quite worn. Should be an east job to weld a new one. Like I said, just preheat the pin till it gets too hot to hold your hand on and weld er up. Would be good to stick weld or MiG weld preferably with gas. Interesting fact Harley Davidson MOCO had some bad years with cranks and if you wanted to hop them up, you would notoriously spin the crank as they were pressed together. Granted, a pressed together crank is quite strong, with the interference pieces and heat and cooling and all but to prevent that, people would weld them together. Now just like welding a positraction in a rear end, you are welding dissimilar metals and and kinda preheat would ultimately force a person to take it apart and do it right, or weld away. Well, it appears, that all the cranks that were welded, ended up cracking later on but it generally didn’t effect drivability. The pressed together crank just had some bump stops to keep it from twisting so far. Welder Dave will be by to explain it a little better, I’m sure but again, “ it ain’t rocket science “ One of my fathers favorite sayings, along with “ you on that Maryjuano or sompting”.
Thanks HarleyHappy, your comment about your dad put a smile on my face and got me thinking of my own. I priced a new pin at around $250.00 from new Holland and like Swetz said, the actual link is discontinued so I’ll be checking on the used parts info that Swetz posted on Monday. Might be able to get the whole pin and link parts together for a lot less. I’m gonna try welding the parts that I have and if I’m not confident in the results I’ll keep it for backup.