This weekend I got a chance to get really good at changing the series 23 teeth on the JD 450B. The first couple of teeth were terrible, and then I figured it out! Since the flex pins and teeth were NOT going to be reused, they were removed using destructive techniques...let me share the process I came up with. 1. Using a common cutting torch, heat the flex pin from either side until the rubber stops burning, now the pins can be driven out half at a time. I made a couple of long drifts out of some tool steel I had handy. And once the pins would start moving, a piece of hot rolled, soft, A36 rod, 5/16" with a slight bend, took the pins the rest of the way. 2. Then I took a 7" angle head grinder and ground down one edge of the tooth until I could see the adapter, careful not to grind the adapter. 3. Heat top of tooth cherry red 4. Insert flat chisel (cold chisel) under the edge of the hot tooth and bend top up 5. Now the tooth will come off with a few taps of the chisel. 6. Holding and compressing the flex pin with vice grips for installation makes life easier also. I think the first tooth took me about 2 hours, with a 16lb sledge, by the last tooth, I was down in the 20 minute range, only using a 4lb hammer. And my attitude went from "who can I pay to do this terrible job" to "I can make money at this job". The pins and teeth came from ROMAC, at under $10 per tooth and pin set. In my shop, awaiting my attention, is a 30" backhoe bucket, also using 23 series teeth, but some PO has welded the teeth to the shanks, so the shanks need to be ground off and new ones installed. I have a 17" bucket with new teeth on the machine now, but this one is next...I will stick with the series 23 teeth and shanks so I will only have to stock one style of spare teeth and pins. Estimated cost to rebuild the 30" bucket with six new shanks, teeth and pins is around $175 in materials, $15 in grinding disks, and maybe $20 in rod. Howard
Now I am rebuilding the original bucket that came with the 9300 hoe on the loader... First photo is after removing four of the teeth with Victor Journeyman torch, #3 tip, with propane, after grinding... Second photo is the trenching bucket I got used, after some repair and four new teeth, shanks were GOOD... Third photo are the teeth I took off the front bucket (all teeth are 23 series, isn't that nice?), and the four I cut off the bucket I am working on. If you look closely, you will see that TWO of the shanks had failed on the INSIDE of the bucket, the new shanks are much longer on the inside. And the last is just a quick mockup of the length of the new tooth and shank in comparison to the old. I plan to dress the cutting edge and use a piece of 3/4 grouser bar to form the new edge, blended and hardfaced. If anything has a better idea, now is the time to share while I can still get materials before I start the welding process. Welding equipment available: Victor Journeyman Cutting Torch, oxy-propane, tips from 000 - 3 available. Grinders: 7" and 4.5" with Norton wheels, including ones that cut stainless Welding Machines: Hobart T-300 AC, 300 amps at 60% duty cycle, here is page that talks about the machine: http://www.hobartwelders.com/weldtalk/showthread.php?33644-quot-Hobart-Machine-Head-quot Hobart Handler 140 MIG with Co2 shield gas Rods: 6013 for root pass, 7018AC for follow passes Phoenix Rod Oven, 300 series, https://phx-international.com/ovens/dryrod-bench-rod-ovens/type-300-bench-rod-ovens Hopefully, I can get back to this job on Sunday when the wife has to work... Howard
My teeth look to be like yours. Case in my case, and John Deere offers an identical tool to knock out the sandwich pins. I'm quite startled that your teeth don't fall out once the pin is out. In either event, don't remove the worn tooth. Cut the shank off flush with the cutting edge. With a #4 tip cut parallel with the edge plane above and below. Grind smooth. Install new shanks. I like to add a short piece of grouser stock between shanks taking care that it doesn't interfere with the teeth fitting. Willie
Pretty much my intentions on completion...as for the old teeth coming off, this bucket, just cutting still attached to shank with torch. The slit teeth in the photo came from the FRONT bucket of the tractor, I got them hot (cherry red) and pounded with a 16lb sledge. They were rusted on pretty good. I tried to order the special tool for the sandwich pins at the JD Shop and was told...folks just use a drift around here! Howard
Nice work Howard ! :thumbsup Your going to love that high lift backhoe combo . Won't be many jobs it cant handle .
I see you get as much out of your helper as I get out of mine.
I want to see better pictures of the M37 in the background. I have its big brother the Power Wagon. Mine has two PTO winches, and a dump body. Willie
I can do that...and not really the little brother of the power wagon, same drive train, just a little narrower, and a 24 electrical system. I recently redid the pioneer kit you see on the back. Howard
Wow those do not look anything like the teeth we changed out on our 450b! go figure!
The Droit bucket came with the 23 series teeth, probably since it is common with Case. And it was also nice that both backhoe buckets also use the 23 series. It makes it EASY to stock spares. What do YOUR 450B teeth look like? Howard
I had a JD 410, 2 different case 580Ks all with 24" buckets. All shared the same teeth. My present bucket has a Hensley one piece cutting edge with shanks forged in place instead of welded. These are great edges, but cost is a shocker. Willie
Ah, I'm trying to remember the name of them but they look like this.
Would they be the Fangg teeth? I ran the number and that would be a 160 series JD tooth using a roll pin to secure, vs the flex pin on the 23 series teeth I am playing with. Howard
T29887 is the current jd part number with the roll pin. I'm not sure what the actual name is.
There are many vendors who make the 160 series tooth, no need to buy the green one with yellow trim. I got back on the bucket job today, got busy with land clearing for a pole barn. I got the old teeth and shanks off and found cracks and bad metal, so grinding out cracks trying to find good metal. Now washing my fireproof burning jacket and will probably start with new metal end of the week. Too much plant work and that just eats time. Howard
OK, spent about another 3 hours or so with a flame wrench and angle head and got the teeth and shanks off, and found that the "replacement" cutting edge is most likely low carbon steel, and is badly cracked, about 10" of the 30" in width. The replacement shanks are for 3/4" plate, which is what is on there now, and you can see in the last photo, under the bucket is a piece of 36" long, 6" wide, 3/4" A36 low carbon steel for a replacement, with some 3/4" grouser bar and hardface rod. I am thinking of cutting approximately 6"back, putting the plate in, grouser bar for a cutting edge, then shanks, finally hardface. What do you folks think? I have different opinions from some local folks, Gary the welder says cut and weld as above, Paul the old, old operator says "don't cut your nice bucket up". Oh, the two trucks in the background is the 68 Dodge Uteline with holley, headers, glasspacks, 318/727 with 3.90 suregrip rear end and the 62 M37B with the original flat six. Comments? Howard
Cracked to pieces I'd replace. I'd take advice from my local steel dealer who also happens to be a structural engineer. I haven't asked him, but I think he'd say AR400 steel, or high manganese steel. I might consider adding a piece of high manganese grouser stock which work hardens to the cutting edge. Wear won't be a concern elsewhere on the edge. Willie
I am having trouble finding AR400 is plate over 1/2" think, but do have grouser stock on hand. And cracked to hell is about right...and I know there are hidden cracks, since when I ping it with a hammer, it sounds hollow and not solid. Hopefully I will find time this afternoon for more bad metal removal. Howard
I looked into a Hensley edge with shanks forged in. I forget the exact components of cost, but remember it as $500 for a 24". My local steel dealer has racks of AR400 in all dimensions you might want. I guess if I were you I'd decide whether the shanks fit best with the grouser stock attached, or fill between shanks. Lots of processes use bi-metal to give more resilience. The grouser stock will break if you try to weld on a full piece. I'd do three pieces, then after the grouser has cooled somewhat rosebud the bigger bar at the joint of the grouser stock to open the root all it can be. 7018 from both sides in a well prepared joint. 7018 is more ductile. Use 5 or 6 teeth, hide the joints behind a shank. Willie
Being you have multiple buckets I'll throw in a loop . Replace the cutting edge on the wide bucket & forget about the teeth . Save them for the narrow bucket . Might be surprised how handy a smooth sharp cutting edge is after ya use it . Try it out .
That was actually one of the early thoughts on this process...that would make it better for things like ditch cleaning, grading banks, footings and foundations. And I can always weld new teeth and shank on later if needed. Howard
Hunk of A514 (commonly known as T-1) would be almost as good for wear and less likely to crack if somebody local has it. I have to ask, you mentioned 6013 for a root pass, what is your thinking there? Personally I would preheat and just use 7018 all the way, but that's just me.
On the root pass, the AWS spec on good quality welds wants a 6011 root pass. We did that on nuclear and submarine quality welds. I need to reread the spec. Steel supply up here is thin, but let me look. Howard
I suppose on a veed butt joint that makes sense, especially with A36, but to me with alloy steels and fillet welds I can't see the value? Not saying it's wrong, I'm just not understanding the why of it.....
Let me see what I can find for you... Howard
Absolutely ! To be honest if we're just hogging & grading in the dirt , loading truck , or ditching I'll take the smooth cutting edge over the tooth bucket . http://www.heavytruckforums.com/showthread.php?263-Some-Holmes-750-action&p=2597&viewfull=1#post2597 Then when It gets rough & rocky or jacking around with bigger trees & stumps we drop on a narrow rough service bucket with teeth & side shanks .
6011? 6010 would make more sense since it was around before 6011 and has better penetration as well as being a DC rod. 6011 only came out to be a similar rod that would work on AC.
We root pass damn near everything with 6010 or 6011's . They burn in deep & also work good on poor fit up joints . That's what they made for .:yup Then build up & fill in with 7018's or mig weld it .
I did some reading last night, and I remembered how much I have forgotten...on pipe and plate welding, you want the joint to develop the full strength of the material. A root pass, full penetration is done with a "fast freeze" rod, such as 6010 or 6011, with the 11 better for AC, while the DC can weld either. Then, a low hydrogen, rod, 7018, is used for the follow passes for good weld quality from the x-ray viewpoint. On a fillet weld, it doesn't really matter, but a plate butt weld, or pipe deep V weld, it can really help weld quality. Welder Dave asked "Why not 6010?" and I only have a AC machine. A BIG AC machine, probably originally intended for a TIG power source, upstream of the HF box, thus it is Hobart T-300 when Hobart still made industrial equipment, and not the light duty, mass market stuff you find at Northern Tool, Rural King and TSC. But 300 AMPS at 60% duty cycle sure beats my old Lincoln 225AC buzz box with a 10% duty cycle at 225 AMPS, but continuous at 75 amps. I paid $175 for the welder, another $35 for the rod oven, and then spent $200 on new leads, rod holder and clamp. The leads are 3 gauge. Notice the size of the machine, it is about 3' deep. I would like a new Lincoln Idealarc, AC/DC, single phase, high duty cycle, but that is about $2k, and not budgeted this week. TD25C suggests that I leave this bucket with a good edge and no teeth...I have thought about that, but local soil is clay and rock, not quite sure if the 9300 hoe has the power for a 30" toothless bucket on heavy clay. I do have the 17" heavy duty bucket with new teeth on the machine now. The 17" bucket struggles with roots unless the machine is at high rpm. As for Willie B suggestion of a factory built cutting edge, I asked at the Deere shop yesterday and they do not even stock universal fit, weld on cutting edges or moldboards. There are some bigger steel houses about an hour away, one in Asheville, NC one in Morristown, TN, and I will call around for some TI, A514 or AR400. I am getting my A36 hot rolled from a local industrial supply, http://www.summersindustrial.com/ This is an OLD company in an older building. The fellow working the steel supply shop retired after 50 years of service. They are good for the normal non-critical steel supply, but just bar, round and section, no sheet or plate. The piece of plate I have on hand came from a different, online vender. Howard
Even at that most steel supply shops have access to AR plate or heat treated cutting edge stock, the supplier I use does.
After a closer look at the bucket the cutting edge has a lot of life left in it yet . I'll go with Paul the operator , don't cut up your nice bucket . Gouge out what cracks there are & weld them up . I would true up the edge by building up the worn areas between the teeth & grind it back down to a sharp edge . Nice welder & rod oven !
Wish I had that rod oven, cooking mine in the wife's oven makes for a bad week! Just remember to grind it to a edge like a lawn mower blade, angled to around 45 degrees to the edge or it will erode or ding easily.
Thank you for the comments, Gary the welder, came back over last night and supports the edge repair the Td25c recommends and I would never cook fluoride rods or thorianted rods is a cooking oven. This Rod oven was an excellent auction find, as was the welder. To find a prince, you have to kiss a lot of frogs. I also stock Gary's brand of beer! Social time with wife this weekend, no welding. Howard
That's cool Howard ! You would be surprised how many times a can of barley soda was the solution to complex repair jobs . Have you got to use the 450C much yet ?
Actually did a job for a brewery manager last week... Having a social beverage helps communication also. We have run about 100 gallons of fuel through the tractor in the last few weeks, but sidelined until I rebuild a power steering assist cylinder. Parts are in stock, maybe tomorrow morning. I have plant work next week. Howard
That's good to hear . Those combo units were pretty popular in my area in the 1970's & 80's . New several contractors that used them on 450 & 550 Deere's . One thing I remember is if they had extensive work for the front bucket they would remove the hoe for better balance . Did not take long to swap it out .
The combo units from that era are pretty popular around here. The Forest Service runs a bunch of the 450J dozers for fire duty in our area to maintain fire roads, the local loggers like that series dozer as well. Ours is being used simply for property maintenance, fire road support, and ditching, land clearing, and due to the elevation, and soil properties, a four wheel drive backhoe lacked the mobility. It has been a fun project to get this machine functioning the way want it to...nice having a top of the line machine for period. I haven't removed the backhoe assembly yet, but it looks to be a ten minute job. Will probably do that when it is time to rebuild the control valve assembly. Until then, we have stumps to dig, logs to load, culverts to install. Howard
That tractor is going to work perfect for what your doing . Deere also offered a quick mount ripper attachment for it that matched the hoe mount . That would be cool to find one of those . I do the same procedure with my tracked skid loader with back hoe & attachments . Don't take long to swap out hoe & attachments and pound for pound will move dirt with anything . I'm still trying to talk my neighbor out of his 450C & hoe unit but he's not done with it yet . It's identical to yours with the 4 in 1 front bucket .
There was a family of accessories on that mount, winch, logging arc, post hole digger, ripper and such. There is also a pto for shaft run equipment. Jack of all trades, master of none. Howard
Yea, but he runs when I use the torch, welder or grinder...
Here are a couple of shots of the bucket teeth I discussed in the start of this thread, one tooth got changed in the field, the rest the following weekend.... Howard
Finally got done with the bucket...cutting edge reinforced with grouser bar, my cut off saw did NOT like it. Thank you for all the advice and support. And I know my welding is poor in places, I just don't do enough of it, but each project I take on, I learn and do better. This was my first experience with 7018 rod. Howard
Grousers, track pads, cutting edges all tend to be AR(Abrasive Resistant) steel, most have boron, or another metallic element as chrome or vanadium something if not all the above to make abrasion resistant so will fight back drastically with conventional cutting methods. Best choice is a plasma cutter, second choice for those as I with little choice is gas axe(acetylene torch), personally I try to avoid cut off saws and have adopted a cold saw for cutting mild steel plate, less sparks, less heat buildup and cleaner cuts. 7018 can be a challenge but as I was taught if you can get good with that rod all else becomes child's play to use.
Patience, watching the puddle and keeping the tip moving...and every type of Rod is different! I should have said "cheap 14" abrasive cut of wheels", and it I just put a better wheel on, it would have worked better, but I only had half a dozen 45 degree cuts to make. The rock bottom price and quality Harbor Freight wheels can be problematic. I went out and got better 4.5" and 7" angle head grinding wheels for this job and for that, I am grateful. Howard
first off i am not a good welder. but have never had a problem with 7018 rods. i dont understand that being problem. i started out with a buzz box and flea market 7018 rods the welds looked awful but they worked. now this is farm type welding. learned i needed dc welder helped some with the looks but i have always had trouble welding with any thing but 7018. before the flames begin i never had time or money for classes and at this stage of the game dont weld enough to worry about it. birthday 1937.
Back when you started, ARC welding was still very primitive...I, on the other hand, have been exposed to all kinds of fancy welding techniques in high tech industries that I cannot replicate at home. On this project, after a couple of hours, I was able to give nice, pretty 7018 welds on the flat while grinding out cracks and welding in new metal. Then I started trying the fillet welds putting the teeth back on, and to be honest, the first 20" inches of weld, I had to grind smooth and try again. However, by the time I finished, I was doing 4" to 6" long fillet welds that looked pretty good. While I am not opposed to farm type welding, or over welding, or grinding out bad spots and redoing, having gotten good training on what a GOOD weld should look like, I get frustrated when I cannot match the ability of a neighbor who welds 60 hours a week. Thank you for the support on this, and we will see how the teeth and edge hold up under some hard digging...now let me go rebuild the power steering actuator under the seat. Howard
i go to a couple of welding sites nearly every day and looking at what the professionals do i sometimes turn green with envy. usually the only welds i do that look presentable are where no one will see them and only a few ins. long
I was on the Lincoln Electric site last week looking at the 7018 videos and picked a few pointers, the correct Rod angle, the offset figure 8 pattern and watching a very skilled individual lay down a series of beads, too fast, too slow, short arc, long arc, too little amps, too many amps and was able to make some adjustments. I found that each new type of weld, flat, butt, fillet takes a while to get comfortable with. We also have to remember that welding is often a one year long trade school program, and we cannot match 2000 hours of formal instruction with a weekend welding project every few months. To be honest, one of the things I noticed is ensuring my bifocal safety glasses are correctly positioned under the self darkening helmet and that I can focus on the area to be welded BEFORE I strike the arc. Things young kids don't have to worry about. While at Electric Boat as an engineering COOP over 30 years ago (the summer before I earned my first degree in Mechanical Engineereing), I was sent to hydraulic design, but we ALL had to learn weld engineering, since EB was basically a giant weld shop with X-Ray quality welds on EVERY weld. And since I was often the only one in my group, in later years, at a variety of facilities, with formal weld engineering training, I was sent on many welding jobs to very setup, safety, quality and other variables. But that is very different than you trying to do the work yourself, since there is a magic to the arc length and wiggle of the tip! Welding is one are where book learning does not make a welder, but good hands on training with a decent instructor does make a good welder. On the other hand, weld design is yet another topic that needs both experience and book learning. I will continue to practice, as I am sure you will too, to increase my welding skill. Since I got this "new" Hobart with a very good duty cycle, I have taken on more complex and involved processes and try to learn daily. Howard
Like you, I'm self taught. I thought I was old, but you were 19 when I was born. Therefore I'm a beginner in that light. It's my belief that DC makes a big difference with 7018. It may also be that rod quality matters but I've never had any of the quality stuff they talk about. Converse to my logic, across a shorter arc there is less voltage. With less voltage, there is less heat. You'll need to turn up the amperage to prevent sticking, or snuffing out the arc. Delivering the molten filler in its jetting action right up against the joint gives deep penetration, and with it, greater melting of the base metal. Conversely, the freeze is quicker because it is a pocket of molten mix surrounded by cold steel. I still struggle with the first pass when welding out of position, but once a weave is possible, it sags much less. Get brave, rest your 7018 on its flux. You'll have to turn up a bit (10 amps). Starting, always scrub the rod on a cement block first, then start with both hands. Willie
Oddball double post, deleted!
a lot of good advice and i thank all. my welding machine is now an OLD holup? 285 with a 300 amp dc convertor which a friend gave me when he walked away from welding for different interests. i bought the convertor from j. c. pennys late 70s.
The bucket turned out great ! Rod tip on 7018's need to be in the weld puddle , Many times while welding I will have to reposition myself halfway through a rod burn , will purposely jam the rod in to the molten puddle until I get repositioned & keep on burning . We run them on DC reverse polarity . Totally different animal as compared to a 6011 .
Willie B, you are correct about the DC, even the 7018AC made for running on AC is not as easy to weld with nor as smooth in my experience. Also the power supply makes a huge difference, small single phase machines struggle to keep up with the current demand smoothly, large machines, especially three phase machines are like Christmas in comparison. Smoothest welding with 7018, up to 1/4" rod I ever enjoyed was with an old gas drive Miller Big40, at 300 amps the engine didn't even mumble when you stuck that big rod, couple seconds it would blow right off, lol. Like many things I have owned at various stages of my life, sad that I sold it. Cheers,
What do you need 7018 and DC for? Check out the backhoe forum, all you need is a 110 volt 100 amp MIG welder!
Thank you, it has been a good project for me! Keeping the 7018 Rod in the puddle I guess is why it is called a "drag" Rod, and drag "away" rod. A very different behavior that the 6011 fast freeze Rod or the 6013, a fast freeze Rod. All this complex technology just to fuze metal!. The 100 amp, 110v flux core wire feed is a great little welder, good for household chores, decent, say for welding in sheet metal patches for automotive body work, but terrible in structural application due to the thin bead, and 10% duty cycle. Talking about duty cycle, this is the third rainy Sunday in a row...and hard to get outside stuff done. Howard
Relax Dave, while I agree with you, there's no sense getting het up about it, lol..... sometimes you run what ya brung and hope for the best.
I don't know if it has been discussed here. Hydrogen atoms will find their way through molten metal until they hit the wall where solid metal didn't melt. There they form a barrier interfering with the bond between weldment & weld. A 70000 LB tensile filler is useless if the bond is only good for 10,000 LBS PSI. Old 7018, is no better than 6010, which incidentally has hydrocarbons, but mixes more effectively than some other rods dispersing hydrogen atoms. The cellulose flux (hydrocarbons) on 6010, contributes hydrogen. Old 7018 (H2O) also contributes hydrogen. 7018 does little to disperse hydrogen. Store 7018 in an oven, buy fresh 7018 in a sealed container, and use it immediately, or use 6010. Suppliers I use have it figured out that we don't know any better. They put 7018 in plastic containers that don't exclude air. Occasionally I find it with scotch tape on the joint. That's BS! Air has water in it. If they allow me to throw these containers in water, and refuse the wet rod, I'll believe this works. Otherwise you need a rod oven. Damp 7018 is not as good as 6010. Willie
Can use 7018 right out of the box if stick it first the allow it to cook itself dry, been doing that for years in field welds when a oven or any other method to keep them dry was unavailable. Works like a champ and yes, keep the rod tip down in the puddle, best lay in of bead that can be had. As for wire welders, I have one of those too, makes pretty but pretty shallow welds, lack of penetration in weld and it will shear as if you cut a dashed line along it. Talk to weld instructors, they can show how rod welds will out perform a wire weld in high stress locations UNLESS willing to overlay and overlay and overlay with the wire to get penetrating heat and substantial filler.
Furthermore, there is no such thing as a 110 volt welder. In USA, power companies provide 120 volt power. Most will tolerate 108 volts with out catastrophe. Typically they are designed for 115, or 230. Basic math shows heat needed to melt metal is in short supply in 115 Volt welders. If you want to weld anything bigger than auto body sheet metal, it's easier to do it with 230 volt machines. Think 10,000 watts. 10,000/115= 87 amps. Few household power systems can support this. If a welder is available with 115 Volt, 87 amp primary, I am not aware. 10,000/ 230= 43 amps There are lots of welders able to function at this. Willie
Um, willie, not sure where you went with the Watts thing, but how about this: I have a lovely little Millermatic 130, it plugs into a (pick your poison) 110, 115, 120 volt shop outlet, which in my shop can supply 30 amps. The Ohm's law math is pretty simple, ER70S-6 bare wire will usually run just fine at a constant 25 volts DC, so, divide 110 by 25 gets you 4.4 which is your conversion ratio, multiply the 30 amp current input by 4.4 and you get 132 amps to the wire. This is theoretical there is always some loss in the conversion so maybe I do need 120 volts to get my 130 amps. Do I weld 3/8" with it? No. I have a lovely yellow single phase 280 Amp machine with dual shield in it for 1/4" up to the odd 1" piece. 50 amp 220 single is all I have in my leased shop until I hit the lottery and move on up to the East side..... So, I agree with you, just couldn't quite grasp where you pulled that 10,000 watt number from
knew it was time for this old man to bow out of this thread. it got deep in a hurry. but i will say this back in the early 80s i was welding? the front loader arm back on a backhoe combustion engineering certified welder was watching me told me my down hill weld would not hold that old hoe is sitting in my parking lot no cracks and was used by the roughest person i have ever known on equipment and none of the welds have cracked or failed. liked the advice i got from this thread thanks again BUT i am out.
Well, there's always more than one way to skin a cat, or weld a joint. I'm no professional, but have had the good luck to be advised as I went along in life by several men in the fab trade in one way or another, that taught me what the engineers say and what the books say, is hardly ever practical or the best option in the real world. Now if your welding nuclear reactor vessels or submarine pressure hulls, let's all agree to go by the specs, because it's probably best not to experiment too much in areas like that. In normal manufacturing or repair, and especially in repair, there's usually several ways to get the job done, maybe some more right than others but in the end as long as it holds by a margin, nobody cares what that margin is, right? For a short time I welded a lot of square and rectangular tube into trailers and truck beds, heavier than the usual stuff you see on farm trucks, all the verticals were downhill single pass with a 200 amp MIG, bare wire. A passing weld instructor that wandered in with the local weld shop salesman told me they would never hold, no strength in a downhill weld. I had the same experience as you, ran across a couple of the truck beds twenty years later in a contractor's fleet, pretty beat up on the outside, nary a cracked weld or repair due to cracking. Sometimes welding is like the Ford/Chevy debate, and I'm a Dodge man, we all have our beliefs and that's okay. Cheers,
Kind of funny this was brought up, there is a 'downhill' rod made almost expressly used in pipeline and oilfield service where at times you must weld downhill. We used 6011 in the oil patch but 7018 can work if you flip the slag away every so often or as it loads up. True MIG Wire welders do not generally use a flux so welding downhill slag does not build up, main worry is over-welding slag and having inclusions in the weld which over time can weaken a weld joint. I work at a nuke so understand the welders that will not weld downhill!
I was describing your big yellow thing. Yes, the little buggers, especially the expensive ones can handle thin steel. For aluminum, or thick steel, you want more power. Those who go down to Harbor Freight, and buy a $90.00 welder thinking they can weld the big stuff are in for a disappointment. 10,000 watts input is my arbitrary number for an adequate machine for versatility. An inverter can do the same job on about half the power input. Still most people buying little welders are plugging them into general use outlets fed from power company 120 volt power. By the time it makes round trip through service lateral, service cable, feeder, garage circuit wiring, and usually extension cord, usually many connections along the way, voltage falls well below design voltage. With dedicated circuits, and good provisions to avoid voltage drop, a Miller or Lincoln machine can work OK for the thinner stuff. The same can be said for my Millers MM252, or Dynasty 280DX. And these can weld 2" thick also. My usual stick welder is an old timer 295 100% duty cycle rated at 230 Volt, 60 amp input that's 13,800 Watts: Just Right. Willie
I just went back and looked at the data plate (post #29, IIRC) on my big Hobart...110 amps input, at 230 volts is about is about 26,000 watts, at full power. Right now, I have mine on a 50 amp dedicated circuit, with a single 8 gage feed wire, going to a dedicated 100 amp circuit with double 8 gage feeds. And I am running dedicated circuits, right to a 200 amp panel (two side by side) with a 400 amp feed coming in, from a dedicated shop transformer, on a dedicated feed line to the mains. So I am NOT your typical case! I could easily burn 1/4 rod all day long, with the only damage to my electric bill! Howard
They do make special down hand/hill low hydrogen rods, 7048. If it's 110 volt, 115 or 120, who cares. 6010 can have good strength downhill because you can still get decent penetration and don't have to run to keep ahead of the slag. Most manual pipeline welding is down hand XX10. 7018 downhill has very little penetration and is a fast usually concave weld. Not desirable for something you need to be strong. Up hand while providing superior strength and penetration has the added advantage of preheating the steel ahead of the weld. A web friend of mine did some simple fillet weld break tests and 7018 is strong without needing an oven. Damp 7018 can be dried out. MIG can have strength down hand as well. Root passes on pressure vessels and piping are all down hand MIG. There's so much stuff about welding posted you don't what to believe. Having been in the trade and involved in lots of fixing of things, I try to do the best the repair the first time so I don't have to do it again. If it means taking something apart so it can be positioned for flat welding, that's what I'll do. If I have to do a critical weld vertical, I might run a 6010 first, uphill or downhill but will for sure do the 7018 uphill even it means going to a smaller rod. Some weld repairs I've seen are just plain scary. Everybody wants to be a welder but when they get questioned on their procedure get all bent out of shape. Welding has been around for a long time and is about the most inspected trade there is. Sometimes it helps to listen to experience. Most of the people with experience are trying to help you do a better job whether it's welding or mechanics or whatever.
This thread started out months ago discussing some work on a front bucket for my JD 450B with the Drott 4 in 1 at the 1 and 1/8 yard size. Then the thread wandered into welding and bucket repair, now I am getting back to where I started on the utility of the front bucket. The hydraulic cylinders that operated the clam seemed to be weak and leaking, preventing the clam from doing actual work, like picking things up or staying open to grade, or even closed to haul gravel. The hoses got changed out months ago, after they gave my wife a oil bath one day, but ONE pin, holding the top of the port cylinder would not move. Not with a torch, not with a 16lb sledge and not with penetration oil. Finally, my old buddy John shows up in town, and John and I have been doing projects together for going on 35 years. We finally get set up with a couple of heavy duty saw hourses holding a 1" tool steel rod, with the business end flame hardened and oil quenched, but not drawn. We wanted a good case hardening to prevent mushrooming. With a young man swinging a 16lb sledge between his legs, standing on the horses, and a 175k btu rosebud with a #3 cutting tip on a torch, the pin finally released, after 4 months of trying. Cylinders went to a local hydraulic shop, where $293 later they came back with new seals and polished shafts, new pins were fabricated out of W1 tool steel, heated treated in a propane blacksmith forge into brine and original bushings were in good shape...Aside from the grease holes not lining up. So, to drill those, a special straight flute carbide bit was obtained at almost $30 from McMaster-Carr was obtained. Ordinary bits designed for hardened steel were virtually useless. Let me share the spec on the drill: McMaster part number 8882A19, carbide straight flute short length bid, TiN coated 3/16. If the local CASE dealership parts man would actually look up the correct DROTT numbers, with actual Case part numbers, new pins and matched bushings would have been ordered and installed on my 20 ton press. However, the W1 steel rod was inexpensive, bushings were within .006" and the last hole was drilled today and it is back together ready to test. I have close to $900 on this in job direct expenses, not to include my time! Now let me hang some of the tin beer signs I collected during my last week travels to taste craft beer, among other things and finally wire in a 100 AMP circuit and disconnect box for the big Hobart welder, then perhaps some football. Howard