The engine is a Case 301B. I recently had the injection pump rebuilt.Before I removed it I used a cold chisel to mark the precise position of the pump on the engine. I replaced it today in the exact position it was in. The factory timing marks are in the proper position for the injection pump crankshaft. I then set #1 cylinder at 0 degrees top dead center. Next I reinstalled the drive gear on the injection pump. I was very careful to not disturb any of the alignment marks. I started the engine and bled out all of the injector lines at the injectors. It runs like a sick pig. Lots of white smoke,sounds like it is misfiring and a lot of noise in the exhaust similar to small explosions. I have the genuine case shop manual for it. It tells in great detail how to do the R&R. It also says to look on the valve cover for a sticker that has the correct degrees for the injection pump timing in relation to the engine crankshaft. There is no sticker to be found on a 30 year old machine. Is 0 degrees TDC to late for the timing ??
Yes 0 deg is too late. I don't know what the correct number is for these machines but I do have some knowlege on other diesels. I'd guess that somewhere around 12-13 degress is more in the ball park. Although if your pump has the ability for some dynamic timing adjustment (advances with RPM) it may be a bit lower. This is just for information, don't go setting your timing to my numbers, wait till you find the right number. Mike
I TRIED TO TELL YOU>> to time it before you took it off..LOL WE"LL figure it out.. Did you see the timing plate and timing mark on the front drive hub?? I'll check the specs and be intouch..
What machine is the engine in? I have a book that tells all of the machine and timing spec by machine model that I use when the sticker on the engine is gone.
The machine is a Case 680C serial #9111325. Welcome aboard pumpguysc ! I know/I know ! I was toooo lazy to line up the pump timing marks and then checking the degrees on crankshaft damper before pulling the pump. I just didn't realize the degree setting for the crankshaft damper wasn't in my shop manual. It was bad judgment that the technical writer didn't include the degree setting in Step #19 . I am including a copy of one of the pages in my shop manual.
The static timing for a 680C is 31 degrees BTDC. Hope that gets you going.
Wow, 31 degress seams like alot (not questioning you or your book, just making an observation). The 680 engines are essentially a B series Cummins engine aren't they? In the picture it looks like a piston type injection pump (Bosch P series?) To set the timing do you use dial indicator to set the pump plunger lift on #1 then set the engine to TDC and lock the gears or is there a different method for these?
The engine in a 680C was a 301 Case engine. They didnt start using the B series engines until the 680K series
Cool! Thanks for the info.
CUMMINSTD, You are partially correct, its a Bosch "A" pump..{removable side cover} Some[most] of these units DO NOT have timing marks on the drivehub and you use a SPECIAL LIFT GUAGE to "set the lift" [beginning of injection] on #1 cyl. Thats why ITS SO IMPORTANT for anyone taking the "A" style pump off, to time it first..
Tinkerer, Is the drive gear on the pump "helical" or "straight" tooth?? If it helical, its going to "ROLL" when you put the pump in and the timing marks will no longer be lined up.. IF its straight, then you dont have much to worry about... I guess the BIG QUESTION WAS what engine degrees its supposed to be at..
Pumpguysc, The gear is a helical. I was pretty sure the timing marks were still lined up on the pump hub. BUT you have me thinking maybe the hub may have rolled with the gear. Goose says it should be 31 degrees. That, I think is why I am getting all the white smoke and loud popping sounds in the exhaust (unburned fuel). Today is Sunday so the old girl won't be getting any attention from me today.
Hi guys, following this with interest. :yup Goose said the static timing was 31 degrees. Is that the crank at 31 degrees BTDC? If so, makes sense to me, because with the pump on it's marks, the helical gear would turn the pump shaft and put the shaft in a position to agree with the 31 deg crank position. Is that pretty much the way it works?
ATCOEQUIP, Yes that is my take on it. I'll find out when I redo the timing. Before attempting to start the engine I will have all three of the timing marks dead on target. It has been an interesting situation for me. I have set the timing in many,many gas engines but never a diesel.
With the engine on 31 degrees BTDC installe the pumpwithe the marks line up. The line may be off a little from the helical gear and then rotate the pump on the bolts. You must have the lines lined up and the engine at 31 BTDC with the pump mounted.
Thanks Goose, That is exactly what I will do.
Today I reset the timing on the crankshaft to 31 degrees. Then pulled the drive gear on the fuel injection pump and reset the timing marks on it. The engine started up and runs better than I have ever seen it run. To my dismay though I found that the engine compression is really low when I was turning it by hand. I knew I was getting a lot of blowby but didn't know if it were the valve guides or the piston rings. I left the valve cover off until I was sure the timing was correct . That also gave me the opportunity to see that the blowby is coming up out of the crankcase. It seems repairs never end.
Good to hear ya got her sorted out tinker. If she started up promptly, I woulnd't worry too much about the blowby, she'll probably run for many more years with a little wear on her innards. If you have to wake it up with a good dose of starting fluid, well, that's a different matter. Let's hope your Ok.
Thanks ATCOEQUIP, Yes it does take a pretty good sniff of either to get it started. The motor does have 42 lbs of oil pressure when warm at idle speed. So that is a positive. I do have new valves,guides,seats,springs and retaining clips in a box in the garage. I will probably do the rebuild on the heads (it has two) this coming winter. I just don't know about the engine rebuild. I should do it then but it takes a lot of money for a rebuild kit plus any machine work the crankshaft may need. Any opinions on the total rebuild would be appreciated.
Sounds like the compression may be a little low Tinkerer, not unusual to need a little starting fluid. If it runs good once it gets going, and doesn't smoke like the woods are on fire, and doesn't drink oil excessively, wouldn't worry too much. Phil might have an idea of about how much it would take to rebuild that engine.
Good job...
Dont worry to much about the blowby. The older Case engines301,336,401 and 504s have more blowby than other engines. I have rebuilt alot of these engines and some had about as much blowby after the rebuilding and the breakin as they did before the rebuild. As long as it is running good and strong run it until you get get real bored and need something to keep you out of trouble.
thepumpguysc, Thanks for the good job compliment. But it was the result of your excellent injector pump overhaul, and the much needed timing degree info Goose provided. And everyone else who took the time to help me. Actually the machine is real strong. It will spin the tires when loading out of a pile. It doesn't use a lot of oil, but the exhaust has a small amount of white smoke. If Goose says that is pretty typical of that engine then the bottom end rebuild sure isn't a priority. I was just a little worried that with the compression that low, the crankshaft bearings may have have a lot of wear on them also. Even though it holds 42 PSI at idle.
Injector Pump Leaking Hi all I got a diesel problem on my case CK28 excavator, which is fitted with a Kubota engine. The fuel pump is leaking around the top of the injector, but I can't tell if it is the collar (below the split to the injector lines) or actually leaking around the base plate of the injector (where it meets the top of the pump using torque bolts). Please take a look at this video of it... YouTube - Leaking Kubota Injector I've got two main questions: 1 - Is it possible to losen the collar from the base plate and if so does this affect timing? 2 - If I remove the torque bolts holding the base plant to the pump, will it affect the pump timing, and if so is there an easy way of retiming the pump afterwards? Must admit to being a bit out of my depth here, but really need the machine back to work asap, and being in Spain we don't have any Kubota industrial engine workshops nearby. Any help / tips / advice greatfully received. Cheers, Ian. :drinkup
HI LM and welcome..First, your "Injection PUMP" is leaking.. At either the "delivery valve holder" OR/AND the "barrel flange"...My guess is BOTH, once one o'ring gets hard, the others follow.. I dont know how YOU would go about fixing them, seeing you need a special tamperproof torx bit to remove the flange hold down screw..BUT if you were so inclined to try>> Take a scribe or any small sharp object and trace around each barrel flange{marking,scratching the housing} KEEP EACH BARREL WITH THE SAME HOLE, THEY ARE MATED..DO 1 AT A TIME..Replace the o'rings and put back in the same position{scribe mark}. Now do the "delivery valve holder" orings..1 AT A TIME..They torque to 30-35 INCH LBS..Once you loosen the dv holder you will find a spring and a peg..DONT LOOSE THEM.. OR you can remove the whole pump and take it to the closest pump shop..You dont have to take it to a Kubota dealer>>he's just going to sell you a NEW PUMP or take it to the pump shop and mark-up the cost.... Removal is VERY easy..Remove the lines and hoses..Remove the 4 allen screws {5mm} and lift-up slowly. Unhook the rack linkage and you have yourself 1 leaking IP in your hand.. You MIGHT have to remove the intake/exhaust pipe to gain access to the back allen screws.. I have a list of pump shops world wide..if you need help finding 1, let me know.. TPG
Sorry, the torque is 30-35 "ft. Lbs"..
Thanks TPG... If you can let know of a pump shop near Alicante, Spain it would be really appreciated Think I will follow your and others advice and leave it to the experts! Ian.
Probably the best idea I'v heard ALL DAY...3 "authorized" shops in Barcelona..thats it for Spain...Sorry..hope that helps...I can email you the address and ph#'s if it will help.. I'll BET the locals know where to go!!?? YOU SABY CHICO??
Hello everyone, Newbie here. I am glad to find such a large forum and hate to drag up such an old post, but I am hoping Goose will read this and as I get back into heavy equipment I will have more to contribute. I am trying to verify that my Case 680CK would have the BTDC the same as in this post for my 301B. I have just got to getting the machine running after rebuilding the engine 6 years ago. I can get the old girl to run with a little ether and am thinking I must have the injection pump out of time is all I can figure. Am hoping I can PM after I get more post. Thanks
Welcome to HEF 96_Bear. I hope Goose reads this also but, he hasn't posted anything since last September. In regards to timing your 301B, they are all the same. 31degrees. The injector pump itself can be rotated to change the timing a small amount. Did you have the injector pump off of the engine ? How extensive was the rebuild on the motor ? Did you have the injectors pop tested ? Is the electric fuel lift pump working ? Did you put fresh fuel in it ? You should not need or be using ether in this weather to get it started.
Thanks for the welcome Tinkerer, this was a complete out of frame rebuild. Had the crank re-welded on the journal that was wiped, and everything was check to see what needed replaced. The pump was removed and tested only. The machine had about 6000 hours on and is a 1973. The injectors were tested back 6 years, motor was assembled and install but has been sitting for 6 years. I lubed everything with lithium and would rotate engine to keep from seizing again. A local diesel mechanic stopped by and had me crank to hear it, then said to shoot some ether to her and said it sure sounds good when she is running on ether, He believes pump is outta time so I am trying to figure out how to rotate engine to get on tdc to see if marks are lining up. i cant get to the flywheel or crank to rotate this thing with the hydro pump on.
All of the timing information you need is in this thread. keep in mind there are two different places that have timing marks. Set the crankshaft damper at 31º BTDC. Then make sure the timing marks on the injector pump are spot on. That is step #18 in the service manual page that I posted earlier in this thread. Remove the pipe plug on the timing cover to get access to them. To rotate the engine first thing to do is pull out the fuel shut off cable so it will not start. If the fan belts are tight enough you should be able to rotate the crankshaft. It takes some time because of the high compression you have with that new overhaul. i would remove the front valve cover and verify the valve lifters are loose on #1 piston when you get it to 0º TDC. Then rotate it to 31º.
Got her to fire up after a 2 second burst of ether and if I hold the pedal at half throttle she will run with a little miss and a almost backfire sound at around an 6 to 8 second interval, and she wont take any more than fuel to raise RPM after half throttle. So now I`m wondering if it just fine tuning or just go ahead and pull valve cover and quadruple check everything again? I am also wondering if I should just keep running her to get things seated in then start adjusting timing. It will rough idle for about a minute on its own after I let off the throttle. Any other input would be greatly appreciated.
Recheck the timing first and make sure it is 100% like I described. The next thing is to remove the primary fuel filter and look for an O ring that resides on top of the filter when it is installed. It will be #7 in the drawing. If it isn't there your problem will be resolved when you install one. There is no O ring on the secondary filter. Did you re-torque the head bolts the way it is described in the service manual ? That is very important even though it will not have any effect on the symptoms you are having. BUT after doing that check and reset the valve lash on all the cylinders. These two steps really need to be done.
Check the timing and found it spot on, Got the o-ring on the filter. Looks like we have the same service manual, and supplemental book with exploded view of everything also. I think I just have to adjust the throttle linkages and get the pump fine tuned. It will start and run once warm and throttle is still spotty and lagging leading me to believe that once all the air is out, pump adjusted right she should be good to go! Will post when I get back to it on Tuesday to make the adjustments. Thank Tinkerer for the time your spending helping out with this!
Keep us informed how it goes.
Hey Tinkerer sorry so long to get back on here. Got the hoe running good, I tore it all the way down on Tuesday and found that what I thought was 30 deg was actually 0! The pulley was so hard to see I finally had to use marker to highlight the numbers and once I got the crank right, found injector was almost one bolt hole out of time. So right now I am a degree or two out, will rotate the pump once I get the air brake actuators free so I can stop without throw the air off on the parking brakes. I wouldn't have figured it out if I didn't come back to the post and reread yours to double check my double check lol. Once I got it right before I finished pressing the starter button the old gal fired right up! Now just a few air leaks and those pesky actuators I will have her ready to work! Does anyone know if the back throttle lever will kill the motor as if i pulled the stop cable, when its shut all the way down?
Glad to hear you got it figured out Bear. Yes those timing marks are very hard to see on the crankshaft damper. What do you mean by air brake actuators ? The treadle valves that are operated by your feet ? Or the brake chambers that are under the deck ? You cannot stop the motor by closing the hand throttle that is back by the hoe controls.
Yes treadle valves, unable to get them to move, everything is working great once I release the brakes there isn't any movement other other than the pedal. Going to try to remove them and see if I can revive them save some money.