OK I'm a long time Dozer guy been running for about 20 years now. My question is iv been out of work for a few months now,Today i filled out an app for a job and they asked if i used GPS and i said no but how hard could it be to learn. I pick things up fast i'm no dummy,iv done site lay out with a GPS unit, So how hard is it?? Thanks in advance
Its actually pretty tricky to get good at it, but once you do it will make you a better, more productive dozer hand. It will be almost impossible if nobody is willing to teach you either. I trained a guy lately on topcon gps and it took him about 2 months to get it all figured out but now he is damn good. Do you know whay type system it is? I have ran both trimble and topcon and can answer just about every question you would have, so if you got any questions just ask
Don't know what they use didn't ask,,the guy that ask was just handing my app. over to the person that does the hiring. But being a finish blade man now and have always been and never had any issues being fast or productive,,,but im old school i guess. But never hurts to learn something new.
I've ran trimble for years. And there is still crap I'm figuring out. Essentially you have to be computer savy in order to run a GPS machine effectively. Whether it's a hoe, dozer, or grader they all bring their unique challenges with the GPS equipment. Yes in the end you do just push the button and go forward. However there is a lot of set up and tweaking before, during, and after. You have to know you are on the right model, the model is correct, blade wear, satellites are accurate enough, how much to cut by, adjust a tenth up or down, if you are receiving off the right pole, base station set up and diagnose, machine set up and diagnose, and much, much more. I would say learning the GPS was just as hard to learn how to operate the dozer I was in. And in a grader its even worse. It's always good to learn new skills in our trade, but don't ever underestimate the difficulty of anything.
I don't have any real experience with TopCon, but Trimble systems are pretty easy to pick up, whether it is manual or automatic. I would hope that wherever you applied would take the time to help you, or at least give a crash course in the system they use. If you can grade using grade stakes, GPS will just make it easier for you, it's like always having a grade stake right there in the cab with you everywhere you go. Automatics can make the tedious actions a little faster and easier, but in my opinion it will never be as fast as the human element, because the GPS can't see a pile, deeper cut, or maybe a rock coming up that you'll have to compensate for. I don't know how much help this link will be, it's more of a tutorial on GPS in general than it is about the systems, but ya never know. http://www.trimble.com/gps/index.shtml
I just turn the damned stuff off, and laugh when the grade Forman says that the gps sure does make nice grade......it's not that hard but I just don't like it and don't want to be like the rest of the seat covers who have been spoiled with the "easy button" and now can't hit the ground with the blade without it. My $.02.
I know a few of our dozer guys that prefer not to use the automatics, if it's an option. That is the great thing, you can use the GPS for grades and not push the "easy button" if you don't want to.
Anyone looking for a real good 12 E motor grader or Letourneau Double drum roller 42 x 48. Blade has new engine, clutch, diffrential and tandems on good rubber. Giving up dirt moving to run over the road. 32 years in the dirt, guess no work and just want to do something new. They have those qualcomms and gps units too, nothing quite like reading the rand mcnally and road signs though, the gps is a good tool for checking routes and finding stuff not on the roadmaps. I ran 44 states some 250,000 miles the last 20 months and kind of liked it, so bought a truck and going to get a reefer and haul some meat to the Bronx and Brooklyn. May get on the coast to coast runs down the road, as I kind of liked it with the tankers, out two weeks at a time and see the whole country. I just watch people move dirt anymore, but actually jumped on a 627G for Ames to help them finish up a interstate project until my mc authority becomes active.
HueyJr., careful there, this is what takes out the beginners. Depending on the material, of course, a tenth cut is often too much for a machine to handle. Best increment the clicks closer together. Then if you can handle more cut or more fill, just take it up or down a few clicks. But keep the basic click spread small, and adjust on the go. My experience with GPS was rather limited and with some early equipment, but this is the single one thing that tripped up otherwise good operators, trying to cut or fill to much. That, and not knowing what to do with material in general. The latter doesn't sound like the OP's problem.
Yeah I was just giving him a general idea of what to expect. All of my family's gps equipment is less than 3 years old. So we are pretty up to date in that regards. With most of the gps equipment all you can ask for accuracy is a tenth of a foot any way. However with different days and different materials the equipment reacts differently with the auto control on. With enough seat time, any good operator can get accustomed to the machine and the gps equipment on it. Like the old adage: practice makes perfect.
mockman gps is a tool that makes a good operator out of a bad one, would work good for those farmer john deere double pans that cannot negotiate slopes or grade stakes, a total rookie to the business excuse, that is modern day earthmoving to me, people that know how to move dirt are no longer needed as rookies with the helpof gps and john deere, now can move dirt. saves on grade foremans and actual decent operators that have experience and an eye for grade. same as trucking or fighting a war, computers guide the machines, shoot the arrows and true skill is no longer needed
Mockman, I wouldn't say that GPS takes away the need for a good skilled operator. If anything it helps speed up those operators. Yeah it helps the rookies catch on faster, but if you are doing bulk slot dozing, or heavy cuts, or the GPS signal goes out for an hour, you still need to know how to run the machine. I really have to agree with bigshow, that automatic button is as much a curse as a cure in the field. I look at it like this, not every day or every job is going to have GPS, I'm still going to be expected to perform and do my job as an equipment operator, I better be able to. Just my $.02:drinkup
Never having done so, I speculate that I would prefer to run GPS on a six way dozer than a motor grader. Those G.D. poles look like they can't hit the cab on a dozer like they can on a grader. It costs $2800 to repair one pod. Don't ask me how I know this. ps, It cost over $18,000 to fix one GPS system that tore up on another job.
You're right, those bright yellow poles somehow have a way of finding their way into a cab or even the main frame, although I can say I am VERY consciensious and this hasn't happened to me, luckily. The poles on a dozer can find their way into trees, bridge beams, and even into the side of a hoe bucket, bad things happen to those too, again, thankfully nothing I did or was involved in but like anything, the heartbeat in the seat must pay attention. As far as the o.p., the basics are pretty simple, I don't know the inner dynamics of gps, such as p-dop and Russian satellites, and all that mumbo jumbo, but learn how to follow the contour lines and what they represent, learn how to decipher the cross section views, and you should be all set. There are intuitive light bars that dictate where your blade is in reference the grade and whether the G.E.T. Must go up/down or on grade. A lot of people make it out to be gypsy magic but it's pretty simple, don't be intimidated, if I can figure it out any one can, best of luck to you.
Don't be afraid of the GPS. A very good operator just gets better with it. Not only that, you don't have to have a grade checker standing there telling you your 1 or 2 tenths off. Trust me, once you run it, you won't want to be without it. You don't have to be a computor wizard to run it either. Some small training and you'll be just fine. Go for it!
See thats kinda where im at!! I know how to run a blade,,I had a grader guy come to me a few years back that the paving crew brought to the job to run the lot i just graded off and said it was one of the best jobs he had see in awile. Tellme what ya want,,,give me a few stakes and i'll putit on point.
I have no doubt that you can hold grade very well, but you have to have hubs/grade stakes to work from. We're doing more and more jobs (construction staking) that are GPS graded & paved. No matter how good you are you can't hold grade if you don't have anything to go by.
When we are grading, there is always someone wandering around with a rover, playing Picasso, and just making sure everything is kosher. I have found that the machines do have a variance that is not found in a rover and we do make better grade with a rover and paint than a gps guided machine. Many people make the mistake of thinking that the gps makes perfect grade, it does NOT, there are many variables that come into play. A hand still has to know how to make grade, whether it's with a stick and string, laser, robotic total stations, or gps. It's like the old timers that hated hydraulics and said they would never last, cable and gear drive was the only way to move dirt, before them it was mules and slip scrapers. Now look at us with our fancy schmancy hydraulics, God only knows what's next, but either way, you got to keep with the times or someone else will and you'll be on the outside looking in.
most states now are requiring a tolerance of less then .03 on dirt subgrade for highways now, and i do not think it is possible to carry that grade manually. IN, TX, LA, AR are the state i have worked in that require this tolerance
There are states now that require you to have electronics for grading or your not allowed to even bid projects. They also are requiring you to do all your own staking. You would be surprised how many of these new operators can't read a grade stake but can read the screen on the GPS or Laser. All the old hands will have to learn or sorry to say will be left behind. I for one just love it (and I'm old also). Adapting to it isn't that big a deal. For the final finish - electronics will win out all the time.
mockman I don't know, I never had any trouble with paving hubs myself, speced all my bids at plus or minus 2 tenths and always got it there. Just took more time to get it closer. Used an outfit with GPS on last job, but seemed when it came time to pour, they were still calling to trim here and there with my old knuckle buster 12E before they were happy. The GPS is as good as the guy running it. I could see where it might be handy, just never had the need for it. Like this I 80 job I am on, they have it, but I can see where ditch bottoms hit grade, when the slopes end 10 foot wide at a 3 to 1, if slopes are correct the grade will be right on. I can see it by eyeball. Last highway job I did, bridge in the middle, I did whole job by eyeball, using bridge and old highway we were tying into as reference points, they showed up to stake it and I was within two tenths all the way thru. Just a higher bridge and half mile long stretch.Whatever works I guess, all my life, it was stakes, my eyeball, an eye level and 6 foot grade ruler.
goin by eyeball works great sometimes, i have worked many jobs now were the engineers will put bends in the slope, or a high spot that runs down a slope, or a ditch that has a weird bend in it, and its hard to grade those goin by stakes. I dont think it matter anyways, never seen a state check the back slope or ditches on a highway job
Vapor300, can you really achieve a .03 tolerance with a GPS controlled machine? And you might check your sources, the last time I worked a federal highway job in LA, the dirt subgrade was a tenth of a foot, easily obtained by GPS or hubs. Even the rock was spec'd at half a tenth behind a trimmer. The other states you mention I don't know about. By the way, I see you are in St. Louis. Heard anything about Jones Bros. of TN lately?
We staked a 4-lane divided city street last year where the dirt grade tolerance was 0.1 ft...the inspector took it to mean that there was a total tolerance of a tenth...(± 0.05) He checked every 25' station and painted spots on the dirt to be cut/filled. What a pr**k he was....also wanted us to write everything on the front of the pie-cuts (station, cut/fill, offest, & %) so he didn't have to bend over and look at the back. Told him that was why they make lumber with 2 sides.
None of the GPS dozers I have ran would hit .03 heck our JD850 wouldn't hit .1 at times. I have put plenty of pads and street sub grades with in 1/4" by eyeballing, but its a wast of time. I haven't learned GPS yet hope to at my new job though.
Few years ago was bldg a four lane state hwy. Had a very long super in it. All the staking on this project was done by GPS. Needless to say the old school state inspectors didn't trust it. So the N. bound lane was ready for paving hubs-I had the grade all blue-topped and done- so they brought out their total station set up and nothing was hitting grade. Told me it was all wrong and I have to regrade it. Well guess what - brought the rover in-checked everything-told the state they were wrong-had hell've arguement-we were right-they paid me for verification of grade-and didn't give me any more static about it. All the GPS on our Cats with Tremble seems to be very accurate. State learned that also. Just an experience I had.
Yes, topcon's MM system has a tolerance of .030 or less, and we were doing 16 miles of interstate 49, we did from Ida LA, to hosston LA.
No i havent heard of them, but it has been 4 years since i worked in STL. And actually so far LA was the only state that came out a verified the tolerance on the final layer of soil cement before letting us put base down. Luckily we had a very good surveryour and blade man
Worked for the Detroit Mob, did you? And the old guy on the blade who you said was so good. that was Jimmy Hoffa...
no the chicago mob, and no jimmy hoffa wasnt the guy we used to cut soil cement
I know Detroit picked up quite a bit on I-49 up there, including one job for $61,000,000 alone, but I didn't realize Chicago was in the hood too. And, yea, Jimmy Hoffa would probably be slow to catch on to GPS. Maybe he stuck with trucking after he left Detroit. I now Hoffa made it out despite media speculation about his death, because I was driving a bigtruck somewhere in the middle of nowhere in Idaho in 1986 when an empty 45' flatbed sailed around me drug by an old faded-out Kenworth with no sleeper. On the very back end of the trailer in small letters was stenciled "Jimmy Hoffa". Picked up the mic and asked him how he'd been, and he relied, "Gettin' by, dude, hauling postholes and sailboat fuel off the books through a broker for cash. Gotta go now." And off he went into the sunset. It was the last known sighting of Hoffa so far as I know. Those were the days.
Vapor you still work for that company? Where are you working now?
yeah, we finished up with soil cement feb of last year and they moved us out to KC to move 3 million yards, got all the dirt moved in 5 months and had about 500,000 yards of rock left, now we are in IN, but should have this would wrapped up in a few months
Topcon system is working good for my company, the operators love it.
Running a 750C Deere with topcon system 5. Only been running it about 50 hrs so for. I dont think our models are the best. My question is if you are not carrying a full moldboard it will get parkinsons. Start bouncing up and down like it cant find grade? Looks like a rookie is in the seat! The prior operator says it cant be set any better and you just have to run without the easy button on. I know a couple years ago the rep was on the job and said that you can set it to take care of that problem. Then I didnt get in the machine for 2 years and now I cant figure it out.
I have been running topcon with mm on a JD 772 and it is within .02 all day. It does take time to get it adjusted but once it is right it is hard to beat. To get the bounce out of it when there is nothing on the moldboard try turning down the valve offsets and turning up the gains, this helped mine. My Geoshack guy told me there is nothing I could do that they couldn't fix so play with it and call them if I needed anything and that has worked well for the past 1000 hours.
GPS system are simple to use and work well without jumping up and down. New systems on your site with "teething problems" is because you have a rookie for a GPS dealer not the operator. No it does not turn a donkey into a good operator. It is a grade checker, a blue top, and up to date information to cut and fill, and can be used in automatic when you are close to grade. Please refer to me with any GPS or Laser automatic inquiries. No need to be computer literate either. Your project engineer should load the files. You see only cut fill and edges. Simple stuff. I am available for consulting by phone for free. And advice on any investment in the topic.Yep I am the expert.
Check to see if you are using a GX60 (new) or 9168 (old) display panel. its on a silver label on the back. Or if you want to fiddle around touch the topcon logo, go into machine setup, valve calibration if it hasn't been locked out by your dealer. **** around with that for a while. Lower number is slower reaction Gains dont do much of ****. leave them at about 30. You on an H or M?
Bigshow is obviously not used for fine grading. Stay on the stock pile. Keep your 2 cents. your gonna need it if you cant use GPS.
Thanks for the tips guys. I will have to try them when I get to the next GPS job. LaserGPSexpert that is what I was looking for. How to set the reaction time.