How many of you out there use a grade control system on your dozer/grader/excavator etc? Is there a particular system that your company is set up to use? Trimble, Top Con, Leica, Accugrade (Trimble) or any others? What kind of accuracy are you getting down to with these systems? Is there a limited factor in how fast you can grade with them? Any experience with a Cat piece of equipment that is Accugrade ready and having to convert it over to Leica or Top Con? What about Komatsu or Deere? Any insight is greatly appreciated!! :thumbsup
GPS grade control We have been running Topcon for about 4 years now and love it. We have it set up for full machine control on a D5M and a D6R series III. The 6R was accugrade ready and the Topcon system integrated seamlessly. We also have a D9R with a 631 pull scraper that has an indicate system on it that works like a dream. Accuracy is great and is 95% + under a tenth usually averaging around 5 to 7 hundreths. Very operator friendly and has a small learning curve. How much you are trying to cut, the type of soil, and the machine determines how fast you can cut. I prefer the D6 for the majority of any heavy moving. As for the D9 it works great being used as the lead scraper with the other scrapers following it. Really easy to get within a tenth or two (depending on how good the operator is) before even needing a dozer to clean up. All in all, alot of money but well worth it.:
I have an older Laser Alignment system(which is now Leica) who is pushing GPS and giving up on servicing the older Laser Alignment stuff that i have reseached,which i haven't gotten put on.It was on a Deere,and i plan on putting it on my D6R,which is and older machine with out accurgrade. It isn't that easy,you have to plum into the hydraulic lift cylinders hoses.The kit was high and it will be labor and time consuming. If i was putting it back in a Deere not that big a deal.It came off a 650G series Deere. I'm small company so GPS is out,but would like to be able to use it with my laser.Mine will also only be single grade up and down.Won't have it tied into the tilt ,since i have a single valve.I do have a duel grade laser which i could use if it would have had duel valve. If anyone has installed the valve on older D6R i would also like to hear.I have researched quite a bit,but can't find the fittings and block to connect into the lift cylinder hoses at a reasonabale cost.Also where excactly to connect to the hydraulic pump to feed things. I have the manual for the Deer,but not the Cat. If i was going with GPS it would be Trimble or Top Con,that way if you wanted to use laser with the GPS they will be more compaterable.Thanks:usa
farm_boy: How many of you out there use a grade control system on your dozer/grader/excavator etc? I’ve operated each of the mentioned machines with GPS guided grade control systems, and have spent a lot of time with these machines on my crews. In 5 years any company not heavily utilizing GPS grade guidance systems on their dozers, graders and excavators will not be able to compete in this industry. Is there a particular system that your company is set up to use? Trimble, Top Con, Leica, Accugrade (Trimble) or any others? My experience is mostly with Trimble and Trimble/Accugrade. I have limited TopCon experience. Been around Leica, but never played with it. What kind of accuracy are you getting down to with these systems? That’s a multi-faceted question. First and foremost, the best results will come with an operator who’s not only skilled with the GPS system and its functions, but also knowledgeable of the machine, its capabilities and how to manipulate the material in front of the GET. Too many people are under the notion that the installation of a GPS on a machine will make anyone a pro overnight. I’ve always made sure that my most skilled operator will be on the machine(s) with the GPS. Studies show that grade control systems will average an increase in productivity, efficiency and speed of around 40% (studies vary from 12%-70%). You will never see this increase with an unskilled operator. Also, I strongly feel that any operator running a machine with a grade control system should be REQUIRED to read the operators manual. And if at all possible, spend a few hours (not just a few minutes) going over the system with a sales rep. I can remember one instance of nagging a D6RLGP operator to speed up his slope grading. We were held to a tolerance of one tenth and it was just going way too slow. I finally climbed up in the machine to yell at him, only to notice he was running the machine in “Indicate†not “Automaticâ€. I asked him why he was doing that, and his response, “I didn’t know that it would automatically control the blade.†I pressed the button to make the switch to auto, and a day later he was caught up and waiting for the 657’s to get out of his way. The guy was an excellent dozer hand with a tremendous breadth of experience. He’d just never been around grade control systems. Too many of the features offered by GPS systems are never utilized simply because the operator is unaware of them. Typically you’re finest grading accuracy with these systems will be seen with motor graders. A GPS system on a newer blade (good hydraulic pump, responsive system) running twin masts (two receivers) will generally be accurate to less than +/- .05’. With laser assistance systems, GPS equipped graders can get down to +/- 5mm. But I’ve never seen that kind of accuracy with GPS alone. I’ve seen excavators grading bedding sand for graded pipe being accurate (consistently, pipe after pipe) to less than five hundredths. That was a CAT 330D with Trimble Accugrade. Most other excavators are just a couple hundredths higher than that. It seems the newer machines are constantly improving on accuracy capabilities. With GPS equipped dozers, generally speaking, the smaller the machine the more accurate the ability to grade. I had a D5N that was grading AB in front of a Gomaco; the millhead on the Gomaco was hardly shaving any material off the finished grade. The dozer was producing a grade with consistently less than three hundredths of variance. Most all D6’s, N/R/T will be the same. Accurate to +/- .1’ tops. The one attribute I’ve noticed to the D6’s with GPS, and it may simply be due to the tremendous time I’ve spent on/around GPS equipped 6’s is there ability to maintain high degrees of accuracy in 2nd gear. Any of the newer D6’s I’ve been around can carry a good grade at relatively high speed. The D7’s and D8’s will run around +/- .15’ in most situations. In first gear in a D8, if you really lay down on the decelerator, you can reduce machine vibration to get accuracy down to a tenth. Full throttle in 1st gear and accuracy is backing around .15’; add a couple hundredths for 2nd gear. The biggest improvement I’ve seen in grade control systems over the last couple years has been in the D9 sized dozers. The D9R with a Trimble system was capable of getting +/-.25’ in first gear. The newer D9T’s have cut that down to have accuracy equivalent to that of D8’s. Is there a limited factor in how fast you can grade with them? See above. Any experience with a Cat piece of equipment that is Accugrade ready and having to convert it over to Leica or Top Con? No, but I have heard about it being done. Big wiring pain in the butt was the kosher version of what I was told. But that’s just heresy. What about Komatsu or Deere? Interestingly, the majority of CAT machines I’ve seen/been around have been equipped with Trimble systems. While the Komatsu, Deere, and Volvo machines I’ve seen with GPS are much more heavily utilizing Leica or TopCon systems. There’s a local contractor that has John Deere graders and Komatsu excavators that’s running TopCon systems on all of them. From what I heard, the local John Deere dealer is now selling graders off the lot equipped with TopCon systems and is offering the service on their other machines as well.
Wow.....Mass-X.....all I can say is :notworthy Thanks for taking the time to lay out your thoughts in such a well organized way. Awesome info:drinkup
First off, I'm new to this forum, but have been on DHS forum. I'm a dozer and motor grader operator for Phillips & Jordan, Inc. I'm the youngest operator on my crew, maybe in the division. I have been operating the GPS dozers and motor graders and it takes some getting use to. I'm currently operating a D6R series 3 with Trimble GPS. Its not just about pressing the "Auto" button and going at it, it takes skill and experience. I was luck, I caught on fast and some guys dont understand the computer and the lightbars, etc. We never get a chance to look at a manual or anything, they put you on the GPS machine and say,"here you go". I love operating the motor graders with the Trimble GPS. I sometimes get stuck operating a Cat 16G OROPS trying to put a building pad on grade with someone holding a graderod, takes longer:Banghead . The GPS is well worth the money. I could go on and on, but I dont feel like typing anymore.
Welcome to HEF JustinG :drinkup
GPS Systems I have either Trimble Auto Grade or GPS systems on scraper, dozer and box scrapers. I just put a GPS System on an excavator and still learning to use it. Once you get use to it you wondered how you got along with out it. If I was going to hire someone to do work for me I would not hire someone that did not have some type of grade system on their machine. They are not hard to install. Just a little time they are easy to use. Get a dual control system if you put it on a dozer or blade. The single control systems are better that nothing, but I think they are a waste of money compared to the dual control system. The dual control system will pay for it self in a couple jobs As far as accuracy it all depends on the operator, speed of machine and how good of shape the machine is in. I have used machines with Trimble, Top Con, Leica systems and I liked features that each company have. Use a system that you can get service locally. I went with Trimble because that is what brand I had the most of. They have paid for them selves many times over. I did a big Lagoon for a feedlot and before the DEQ could get time to check the grades on the floor. It rained 10 inches and put 5 feet of water in the Lagoon. I just printed the grade information off the computer, and they were happy. It helps that the DEQ knows what type of work I do, but If I would not of had the GPS system I would have had to pump the water in another lagoon dry out the floor and what ever else so the grades could be checked. I have had people call and ask grades years later and have the information on the computer for them.
Anybody have pictures of an excavator with GPS??? I have never seen one. I have been running equipment for about 4 years and have yet to run anything with a grade system.. In the mine grade is usually + or - 2 feet. Easy I know. I have really beem wanting to get more into construction and out of mining for that very reason. However, mining pays all day everyday rain, snow, what ever, we always work, which is nice come payday!!
Scanlaser, it's the most common system in northern europe, it's almost mandatory for excavators in the 10-30t range here in Sweden if you want a job buliding roads or foundations. http://www.scanlaser.se/en/index2.php?left=products_xc&main=products_xc.php
GPS on Excavator This a a web site for a company called McAnninch. They are based out of Des Moines Iowa. Look their web page over. http://www.mcaninchcorp.com/default.asp I can take a picture of a GPS system on my excavator, when it warms up and the snow melts off the machine. There is a lot to it .
Welcome to Heavy Equipment Forums JustinG! :drinkup
That's interesting stuff, thanks for the comeback.
Hi, My Name is Katy and I work for a company that specializes in selling new and reconditioned construction equipment, such as lasers, levels, survey and GPS equipment. Please feel free to email me at [email protected] with any questions. Thanks, Katy
I work for mcaninch and they utilize the Trimble navigation system for excavators, dozers, cat and pans, and blades this was my first experience with it and I have not run anything with automatic mode but even using the indicate is a huge jump in finish time I love it different spots on thje earth have different affects I had an old style radio on my d7 and certain times of the day it would just be gone no signal but it happened at the same times every day so you could plan ahead and have your toes and ditches already set and just work from there also if you are working in front of a hoe who is blocking the southern sky you can have problems but they put a new style radio on the tractor and I have not had a problem since. I was told "Gps does not make a bad operator good but a good operater better.
trimble/accugrade i have been working with accugrade for 1.5 years and i am crasy about it would never drive a dozer without it again you will increase your production rate with 10-20% and your fuel consumption will drop ive just worked on a site where i drove along with a couple of dozers without gps exatly the same machines as mine and i could run min 2 hours more on a full tank and now i can use the dozer to survey any site log in the production data from the gps screen into my laptop with sitevision convert the data and reload it to the gps and voila ive made my own design i simply think the system is fantastic
Great info! I am just starting an in-water excavation (30,000 cy) and have convinced the consulting firm to use the data from an excavator mounted GPS system (Trimble) to use as our underwater excavation volume survey. From what I am hearing it should work just fine. Beats the hell out of trying to get a survey rod accurate in 6' of muddy water on a river bottom that has the consistency of jello and probably more accurate.
Check this out. Here is an article about it. http://www.equipmentworldmagazine.com/apps/news/articleeqw.asp?id=66334
Choppy grade control The D6 I run has a Trimble Sitevision system. It just had new tracks put on and since then when I switch to AUTO the blade starts doing the tomahawk chop. If I run faster it setlles down a little but if I don't have much dirt in front of the blade it can be bad. Do I need to change valve speed settings or something else to get rid of this? I'd appreciate suggetions.
you should be able to calm it down by changing your lifting valve down(slower)start with 02 at the time if this dont work yyou might have to get your hydraulics calibrated by a technician
How Fast? I'm working at a landfill cell with some really boney material at subgrade. It ranges from baked potatoe size rocks to sand and silt. My problem is trying to run as fast as I can and maintain .1 tolerance. I've played with valve speeds (it's a Trimble Sitevision system) but I still feel like I'm getting a choppy finish. The slopes passed verification using about 25% speed on the lift cylinder but that was a better mix of material.The floor doesn't have the same consistency. Anyone have experience like this?
For the GPS users; who does makes your models to put them in the the machine? I've heard GPS is great but there is alot of work to do before you ever get to the job with the machine. I looked into buying a GPS system a while back but I can't really find anyone to do the model for me (locally anyways)
D6RXW_GPS. Im not a fan of using the auto button. Its real bad if you dont have enough material to work with. It wants to jump all over the place. Ive found that if Im light on material I just go ahead and freehand things following my light bars. Also. As this is FINISH GRADE work, Ive always been taught that you need dirt to grade with. So i try and back drag material back with me to the starting point. You always need material to push. Weather your starting out with a cut or not. Picking up this fluffy material that you back drug with you puts weight on the blade, which will help prevent that bounce your talking about. It will also take away the blade wanting to dig in when it first grabs your cut material. This also will help with your boney material because your going to be dragging a bunch of fines back to your starting point. It also helps fill those voids from the boney material when your back dragging
Down in the hole you might not be getting the best satellite reception. If you only have 5 or 6 it tends to get jumpy. I've gotten off the machine before and left the auto on, sometimes its constantly moving up and down a little and other times it's dead still. Maybe up on the slopes you're getting a little better reception? As for drawing designs, we're trying to do that more ourselves in-house. It's not that bad after you work with it for a while. Level pads and simple slopes I do that myself in the field right in the computer in the machine