Hi guys, this is jack01. I have a 328D John Deere skid steer that is extremely hard to start. It will crank for at least 20-30 seconds at a time before it will start, and sometimes i have to hit it several times before it will go. I have taken it to the local dealer and they had no luck at figuring it out. They reprogrammed the ECU controller, tried the engine and main harnesses, tried new cam and crank sensors, reworked the fuel supply hoses and filter base, checked the engine timing and a few other things. They put in a DTAC case through Deere and they were even stumped. I am hoping that maybe someone could shed a light on this problem. I am open to any and all suggestions. Thanks
Any codes? Was fuel pressure checked? Did anyone replace the fuel return line check valve?
How old is it? The dealer couldn't figure it out... maybe the dealer should be replacing it with one that starts or giving you a free loaner until they figure it out. I'm really liking my older equipment more and more when I hear stories like this.
The only code that sets while cranking is ECU 636.10, camshaft position signal rate of change abnormal. The fuel pressure was one of the first things I checked and it seemed to be fine, but I went ahead and changed the check valve anyway. The fuel pressure holds about 28-30psi while running. I left the gauge on it for a full week and it did not drop below 3psi, and as soon as I start cranking it jumps back up but does not start. Even if I have the machine running for a good while and get everything warmed up and shut it off it will not start back up. I have done most of the work to this machine myself until I got to the point of having to connect to it with a computer to reprogram the ECU and run tests, I don't have the tools to do that. If I swapped the crank and cam connectors around then it will set ECU 637.10, crankshaft position signal rate of change abnormal. This is what led me to think it was a wiring issue and so I took it to the dealer to have some tests ran to see if it was getting noise in the circuit, but the test showed good. So I let them reprogram the ECU, then they tried a different ECU out of another machine and it still cranked a long time before starting. I hooked up the new harnesses and tried them because after spending almost $3000 and they wanted another $2000 to install the harness on top of the price of the $1900 harness I told them I would put it in and try it, but with the same outcome. The harness was also the only fix Deere could come up with as well. I did remove and return the harnesses and hooked the old ones back up since there was no change. I also took the headliner out and checked all cab wiring to and from the EMU and checked all connections. I also installed a new injector harness just to be on the safe side. It almost seems like the injectors are not powering up because while it is cranking there is no smoke out of the exhaust, but I think for as much time as I have in this thing already I may just trade it off cause I don't know if I want to throw $5000 worth of injectors at it and still not fix it. The injectors are another Deere idea and since its not at their expense why not just have me throw parts at it . Sorry just a little frustrated with this thing. What I really need is a sore butt emoji. I worked for a Deere dealer for 15 year working on ag and construction equipment including skid steers and have never heard of this problem before. I am just hoping maybe someone will say try this and it will work. Sorry for writing a book here, and thanks for the reply.
WOW Jack.!!! It sounds like u went thru it w/ a fine tooth comb.?? Question>> "WHAT" does the crank sensor read from.?? There might be a problem "there"..?? Did the crank sensor have any garbage on it when u pulled it out.?? Can u "clean" that spot.??{sand paper} I haven't "had the pleasure" of working on them so I don't know all the sensor positions.. I'm SURE u thought of this already but.. no harm in letting the rest of us know.. I sure am interested in the fix.. Thanks
It is a 2011 model so it is out of warranty of course. The real thing that gets me is it has been doing this since it was new and they came out and looked at it several times, but it was not this bad. At first it only started hard after running it for a long time and shutting it off and then trying to start it again after about a half hour or so, but it would only crank for about 8 seconds then and start so they had a hard time trying to diagnose it. It wasn't until this past winter that it got really bad and started throwing a code for the first time. I will agree with you, the older equipment is easier to figure out and work on and cheaper most of the time as well. The dealer is at the mercy of what Deere tells them to do. About 10 years ago I could have called one of the older engineers at Deere that I had for training and they probably could have helped figure it out, but they have all retired and all that is there now is young hotshots. If the problem doesn't already exist and it's not on the screen in front of them their idea is to just throw parts at it until it is fixed and then they know for the next time. It's not just Deere either all the big companies do the same thing. They don't do the R&D anymore, let the mechanics figure it out and they can tell the companies how to fix the problems for the next time. Thanks for your post.
The Crank sensor is mounted on the RH side of the block and reads off a tone wheel that is pressed onto the crankshaft. I did pry on the tone wheel through the sensor hole to make sure it wasn't loose, and when I had the dealer time it up since they thought it may be a timing issue and you have to have a dummy injection pump to do so it timed perfectly with cam, crank, and flywheel. The cam sensor is in the timing cover and reads off a tone that is bolted to the cam gear. I made sure it wasn't loose as well. There was no garbage on either sensor and they tested good but for the heck of it I tested new ones for comparison and installed the new ones. I have the repair and operation and test manuals for the 326D, 328D, and 332D skid steers, and both 2.4Land 3.0L CTM for the mechanical and power tech E engines, but there is only so much books can do when it comes to controllers. I have several other books for other JD equipment as well. I quit the dealership a few years back and went on my own, but lucky for me this skid steer belongs to the farm and I have a hard time telling the farms boss(DAD) that it needs to go to the dealer to be worked on. If I ever do get it figured out I will post it. Thanks
Here is some reading material. You probably have seen these already. Don't think it is the issue but worth looking at are the relays and their connections. We have seen a lot of funky stuff do to water infiltration corroding the connections at those relays.
Or "pushed-in" connector pins..
So it's had a history of this since new and basically just got worse as time went on after the dealer has already looked into it (I assume when it was under warranty). I think I'd be contacting someone at mother Deere and telling them to look after the machine you paid good money for.
Does this machine have common rail fuel system? If so I'm thinking it's the relief valve on the common rail. It is the sensor on the assembly where your injector lines start and lead to the injectors. The only way to see if it is working is with a laptop. I would think that the dealer checked for that, but then again they are just wanting to throw parts at it until it runs at your expense. Good luck to you.
Word of caution. Common rail fuel systems have extremely high pressure. 30,000 psi and higher. When attempting to work on it crack the lines at the rail loose 1/4 turn to relieve any pressure. If your high pressure relief valve is failing and dumping your fuel pressure then your injectors will not open. Thus the no smoke while cranking.
Nope. Individual Electronic Unit Pumps, under the valve cover, running off the cam.
The only things I didn't look at is the exhaust temps and parasitic hyd loads. the cranking speed is good according to the dealer and they also ran a miss fire test and said it was good. I checked and cleaned all fuses and relays, plus the new harness had all new fuses and relays in it and I still had the same issue so that should have ruled out any connection issues i would think. Thanks for the reading material. I'll check into the rest of them this weekend and let you know the outcome.
Yeah it's been like this from new but it was very intermittent and i know them problems are hard to track especially when there is no codes. It didn't really get bad until this past winter and i just kinda thought it was a sensor or fuel issue but it actually starts better when it's cold. Once i get the machine running and warmed up and shut it off it cranks even longer to before it starts. Normally when it's cold it will start within about 30 seconds, but after it is warmed up it may take up 1 minute of cranking off and on to start. I also noticed that if the glow plugs run for 10 seconds or so it will sometimes start better as well, but not always. It would have been nice it they would have tried throwing parts at it when it was under warranty instead of now.
It almost sounds electrical if it starts better cold. I had problems with the Nippondenso starter in my skid steer. The copper contacts in the solenoid wouldn't always fully engage when it was warm and would arc instead of turning the engine over. When it was colder they would engage. I wonder if there is a bad connection somewhere or a bad ground.
Temperature sensor issue?
How many hours are on the machine? Might be that your valves are out of adjustment. Have you run an overhead valve adjustment or at least check the valve lash?
Great thought Paul, but their is no valve adjustment on that engine. It has hydraulic lifters. In that line of thought however, if anyone had the rocker arms off did not collapse the lifters properly on installation they will bend when the engine is started. Worth checking. Can be checked without removing them. Just twirl them to see if they wobble.
I cleaned all grounds and connections to the starter. The battery is only about 2 years old and it seems to crank fine. I have checked all connections for pushed or corroded terminals and everything looks good. All the tests that the dealer did per service advisor came back good as well. I would kind of think that by putting a new engine and main harness in that I should have also eliminated any connection issues as well. Thanks
It has just over 1100 hours on it, and as mg2361 posted there are no adjustment for valve lash. I wish it would be that easy though. Thanks
We have owned the machine since new and the engine has never had any work done to it as far as internal goes. The starting issue is all we have messed with besides normal service work. I did remove the valve cover here a few months back when the issue worsened and changed the injector harness because I have had a few problems with them before, but that solved nothing either. I did check the push rods then but they looked fine. Thanks
I checked all the sensors and switches with the EMU and they all seem to be working fine.
Piston rings never seated
Or installed wrong. I have seen it before. It is rare but it does happen. That motor could have been built on a Friday before a three day weekend.
Hey Paul, that's nuthin'.. I got a machine from the dealer w/ zero hrs on it & they couldn't get it started.. They thought it "mighta' been" a fuel system issue.. I loosened the lines AT the injectors & hit the starter.. that baby spun up to around 200-250 rpms & spit fuel a city block outta the lines.. I said, "wait a minute, that doesn't sound right".. it spun up way to fast. I pulled a couple of injectors & hit the starter.. NO COMPRESSION.. They "forgot" to put rings on the pistons.!!! & it made it past QC & out of the factory doors & delivered to a JD dealer.!!! Like you said, "Friday engine" Lol
Compression issue possibly due to hydraulic lifters pumping? Just a thought. Years ago I use to get JD heads in that were hard to start because the valves had sunk in the seats/ but those were high hour engines. I would replace the seats and valves depth mic each valve move them around to get them as close as possible then deck the head to bring it back to spec.
Engine oil pressure ok?could it be the ecm waiting to fire until oil pressure builds enough hence why it starts hard while warm?disregard if you checked this.Good luck!
I've also seen a tiny break in head gasket right in between pistons Anytime and engine is hard to start when warm there is a compression problem.
It doesn't use any oil, and once it starts it runs fine with no power issues what so ever. So without actually doing a compression test I can't say for sure but I would think if i had low compression I would have other problems as well. I have not had a chance to look at it yet but hopefully will real soon.
It has good oil pressure while cranking, and will set a code for oil pressure out of range high. I don't remember the code number but it basically says the engine has oil pressure and the engine is not running. Thanks for all posts.
I have a theory developed only by the information that was provided here, so take for what it is. You have had two failures at the same time and one is progressive damage. If the new harness had been hooked to donor ECU likely the problem would have been solved. The ECU and the harness we're never replaced at the same time. The fact that you can change the harness on the pick up sensors and the code moves leans to an issue in the cam sensor circuit, fault code moved with the wire. An old fashion load test on the cam sensor wires would be in order. The ECU needs to see both signals to start properly. Most engines only getting one or the other signal will start only after extended crank time.
Somewhere along the way there could have been some poking around with a test light or power probe.
You know I would say you are on to something because I kinda thought the same thing about it being part ECU and part wiring harness, but I removed the terminals one at a time from the ECU connector and the cam sensor connector ran a separate harness outside away from the factory harness. I twisted the wires together as well and put them in their own loom, and got the correct terminals for both ends so i wouldn't have to cut and splice anything. This did not make a difference and it was after I did this that the dealer tried a different ECU. We were thinking it might be the harness getting noise in it at first that's why we tried replacing the two wires. When that did not work they tried the different ECU and then ran the test for noise and so on. I am the only person besides the dealer who has worked on this machine for the electrical problem and I know that I haven't poked around on the wires. I hope the dealer hasn't been either, I would think that they would be smarter than that, but one never knows. I haven't seen any marks on the wiring either.
It's been a couple months so I'm not sure if you've figured this out yet or not but here's my thoughts. If I'm reading this correctly you swapped the connectors between the camshaft position sensor and the crankshaft position sensor, so you plugged the crank sensor wire into the cam sensor and vice versa. The code changed from reading a camshaft error to a crankshaft error. This makes me think the wiring is good, if the wiring were the problem the code would have remained a cam code. I think either the cam sensor is bad or its not picking up on the tone ring. I would swap the cam and crank sensors (assuming they are the same, they are on most Deere common rail engines but I'm not familiar with your engine) leaving the wires hooked up where they should be. If the code then switches from 636.10 to 637.10 then you have a bad sensor, if not then it is a tone ring issue. I know you said the dealer put in new sensors but I have seen many sensors come from Deere DOA and cause me to further diagnose where there wasn't a problem.
We had a skid come in for hard start issues, crank and crank and eventually it would start. No codes and ran great once started. Turns out it was missing the O-ring on the fuel water separator from the factory and their maintenance guy never knew it was missing, so it wouldn't keep fuel pressure in the system and had to be primed every time it sat.
Sorry for taking so long to get back to you guys about this machine, but it still has the same hard starting issue. I did finally get around to checking for parasitic hydraulic loads and the test was good. I also checked the exhaust temps with a thermal imager and it all seemed to heat up evenly between the cylinders and the temps for each cylinder seemed to climb and even out about the same with 1 & 5 being around 415 degrees, 2 & 4 were a little higher and 5 was a little higher. Didn't really see anything that stood out as a problem. As far as the thought of the fuel issue goes I have already put a seal kit in the filter base and checked for fuel bleed back. It will hold 4-5 psi for a couple weeks on a mechanical gauge and will build upwards of 30 psi after about 2 seconds of cranking. Also the timing sensors are the same and they have been changed out twice, once by me and once by the dealer. I have 4 spare sensors that all test the same. If I swap the harness ends it does change the code from 636.10 to 637.10 and I have swapped sensors and it still has the same code that's why I had thought it may be a timing issue with the tone wheels, and that's why I took it to the dealer to have it checked. They said the timing was perfectly fine. Weather or not they actually checked it I don't know, but I did pry around with a small screw driver on the tone wheels and they didn't seem to move either. I'm going to try to borrow the tools from them to check the timing myself if they let me. Any other ideas? I'm all ears. Thanks.
To properly check the timing on that engine there is a tool that goes in place of the #1 injector to block the cam at a specific point and then the timing pin is supposed to fit into the flywheel. If the pin does not engage the flywheel then there could be a cam gear slippage issue. Switching the wires for the sensors and the code changes tells me it is in the sensor (not likely since you have multiple sensors) or something within the engine...tone wheel/timing, etc. If you know someone (maybe at an auto shop) with a two channel scope you can check to see if they are in time with it (easier than pulling an injector). The break in the tone wheels for the crank and cam should line up and look something like this...
Sorry, meant #1 unit injection "pump".
Just had the same problem with cam codes.I put a mahle starter which is a 2.6kw whereas the factory bocsh is a 2.2kw.Starts good now.Replaced cam sensor,load test wiring,check fuel pressure,scoped the cam sensor and crank sensor and the cam was very erratic.I have seen this on the 7.3l ford powerstroke with a weak starter.The inductive type pickup needs a certain amount of speed to have a consistant signal.You will have to relocate grounds from the lower starter bolt because starter is bigger and the nut will not fit.
Welcome to HEF Randy ! Those engines in that particular machine did have some engine cranking speed issues. I never gave it a thought about the sensor signal/crank speed relationship. I'll have to investigate the next time I get one of those issues in the shop. Thanks.
Hello....I was just wondering if anyone came to a conclusion to this thread. I have a 2010 333d and have run into the exact same problem with most of the of the same attempts to fix. Not starting, not getting fuel, no smoke at all. Any help would be greatly appreciated.
It's the injector pumps on each injector, about 5-6k to do it. Junk 5 cylinder deere engine
Well I’m having the same problem with my 323d. I did replace with the 2.6kw starter with a new battery and still have the same hard start problem.