I run an H for Summer road construction and Winter plowing ( with snow wedges; a V-plow; a wing; and buttons! ), and am quite happy with it, but we recently had a Cat orientation for the M-series, of which we already have several. It seems to be the way of the future but I'm not looking forward to the changeover. Anyone already done so? Cheers, P.O.
Once you get the hang of running all the functions on two joysticks you'll love it. You can put your feet up on the dash and smooth the road at the same time. Don't show the boss that trick though. I'm in mining, we used 16g & h series, but as they are retired we have more 16 & 24m than anything else. Keep an open mind and your back and knees will appreciate the m series a lot more too! Glen
Oh,, and use the seatbelt. There is nothing to hold you in the seat anymore....
Plus there is a sensor in the seat to detect the presence of the operator that will neutralize the transmission and apply the park brake if you stand up. So get used to sitting down ...........
Have the older graders more holdings in the seat? I have seen older ones from other manufacturers, that the seat place was most the hole cabin.
I think Radrock means that the new M is like driving a Doser ( really got to get my letter after y key fixed). There is nothing directly in front of you because the control rack and steering wheel, which are normally in your lap, are gone.
Ah, that is what he mean, that in the front is nothing. HBM have Joysticks too, but they have still a steering wheel on the front and Caterpillar not. Here a example picture from a HBM: http://www.codesys.com/typo3temp/pics/035903b38b.jpg
The 12G I was on a couple of months ago went down so they rented a 12M from Cat rental for me, had never used one before, took a little bit of getting used to after 40yrs of levers and a steering wheel but a few days after a few days was able to final trim for A/C on a subdivision between kerbs without to much trouble. Good visibility out the front but not so good out the back as the bonnet is to high as well as the LH joy stick is a bit tricky as up against a kerb u r steering ,articulating and blade control all on the same lever some times all at the same time. If I was going to own a grader I think I would go for a late model 12H, lot less electronics on it and it will still do the same job and easier to fix. An M would be a nightmare down the track a bit when it starts to play up.
Chief engineer Montgomery Scott once said " The more they overtake the plumbing, the easier it is to stop up the drain."
I think it just comes down to leaving what you are most comfortable with. I had an old tractor man tell me that when he ran an old cable hoist tractor, that he didn't want to touch one of those new fangeled hydraulic tractors until he was forced to, and then they came up with a blade that you could tilt side to side. I guess you need to keep up with what is new, so you don't get left behind. I have never ran a nerd grader, but a lot of contracts are calling for GPS. I have heard that a lot of the fine grade operators have a terrible time with GPS because they won't trust it to do it's job.
M Series are just the dux nutz. Similar to excavator pattern and did not take more than a couple of hours to get my head around it. Tended to badly over correct with steering for a while but ok now. Keep your speed down until you get used to roading and reversing. These graders are magic and I turn my nose up at the others now as these are so comfortable to run and all the guys on them I work with look forward to the next days work! Some minor issues from time to time but still the best Cat has brought out yet. We have for gas pipeline work run 12, 140, 14 and 16M's and am running a 14 at the moment on backfill. Well done Mr Caterpillar!
Yup, And darn thing resets everything too. It seems I always forgot to flip the park switch to on and then back off again. Transmission is the same way. I don't know if it is normal but often you have to re-calibrate the steering again too.
The cat H & G models have the controls and steering wheel in front of you. I often place it on my lap and would use my knees against it especially when on a slope. If you hit anything hard it would keep you from going in the windshield. I wasn't in the habit of using the seat belt until running that M. If you hit anything hard with it without a seatbelt you would definitely take an unexpected trip..
That is about like the Volvo with joystick controls. We had one on loan for a little while before buying the 140M. I heard here on HEF that Volvo was not going to produce any more graders??
RD, I feel a lot like you do. I'd rather do serious blue topping with a 12 H. I can't see grading a tight corner very well. and I missed the Hydraulic Controlled wheel lean as I used it a lot for trimming against curbs. I could do minor steering with it keeping close. The electronic button on the 140M was too fast and uncomfortable.
Did you try adjusting the hydraulic system to the "fine" setting ..?
They are nice graders and are still a CAT.. If I could stay on a building pad, a fill or blading county roads. It is a great machine. The steering part didn't bother me a bit. I like that part a lot. It takes a while to get use to if you are an old blade man as everything seems to be in the opposite hand. I think any New guys that break in on them will do well and they don't know the old way at all. haha. The 140M I have is like a Cadillac. It is very quiet and comfortable. My biggest issue is the wheel lean I think. And the circle seems to turn slow. When working on a building pad you are constantly having to turn the circle and it seems to get tiresome to me. It's too bad they don't have computer setting for those two items to adjust the speed to your liking.
Yes but it only controls the up and down for the blade lifts. Another problem with this machine is that if you have the blade shock turned on and in the fine setting it hesitates too much. It may be the nitrogen cylinder's are low on charge. I haven't ever had anyone check it out.
Hey man- whereabouts in Alberta are you? Can't tell you anything about the m's myself, all the contractors that had them got rid of them after 2 years and went John Deere. Sounded like summer was fine, but hated them winter, but that's all they ever mentioned.
I made the switch from running conventional controls to the joystick controls 4yrs ago and I run a Cat 140M AWD2 for a local township my other township has a 04 772CH Deere so I switch back and forth regularly. I plow snow in both machines and I'd rather run the M for snow plowing lot easier on your body then the rack controlls on the Deere. Once you get used to running the M you won't want to run anything else that's my opinion anyway good luck on the change. Here's a picture of the machine I operate
And here is a couple from years ago that I use to run... I would like to run that M with the plows though hehehe
I have no issues with the concept of the joystick controls, though I don't care for no steering wheel for roading. Where my issues with the M series lay, are with the poor availability. Ours consistently run around 15% lower than our Hs, due mostly to electrical/steering/trans faults.
Looks like Southwest Colorado - Watch out for snow slides!!!
I think I have shown you these already. It was NE Arizona in the four corners area.
Hi, FGD. I'm just South of Calgary in Foothills MD. How's Innisfail for snow this year? We have a Deere, too, but I haven't used that one, either... Straight Hs for me at the moment, although the day is coming when we'll be running Ms and nothing else. The info above is great, too: Thanks, girls and guys. P.O.
Not much snow. Worked 5 days in December, but considering last winter, it's are first real break in 18 months. I run a Volvo, and sometimes the Deere. My boss also has a 140h (07 it was one of the last- it was a new machine that sat a the old Collicut yard for 18 months) and it's been a wonderful machine. My boss isn't sure what to do, he's gotta decide what to go with too. And literally everybody doing what we're doing here has only ran them 2 years and they were replaced with something else. I wonder if a person shouldn't rewind some h's? They offer the program.
I hear Cat won't rebuild Hs anymore. They want everyone on Ms so, unless you have a great shop with killer techs and tools, M will be the way to go if you want to run Cats.
Didn't know that
Umm no......How can Cat not rebuild them exactly ? The dealers all refuse the work ? They stop producing all parts listed for use on an H-series grader ? Cat will rebuild basically any and all machines made with in the last 25 years or so no problem. Some old machines have discontinued parts but not H series graders
You must be correct: I asked my boss about it and he said WE'RE not doing anymore rebuilds after the two we have scheduled. My co-worker who told me must have misheard.
Volvo got bought out by their sister company from China that makes the loaders. No more graders, no more larger heavy equipment from what i was told. 930 is the largest grader they will make i think? My RM got the work the day it happened late last year.
Could be, the way it was explained to me, there's 2 programs here. Cat has their own that is pricey, and Finning has their's. Sounds like most go the Finning route and they can get a more custom product. We're held to a certain age of machine for contract purposes, but if it has a new serial number, that might take care of that. Guys getting their crawlers rewound speak highly of it. There was a joystick Volvo at the local dealer. I seen it, but never ran it. I think the dealer in Edmonton has it now. It had a steering wheel, and once you go over a certain speed, you have to use the steering wheel. I've forgotten what that speed is though. I'm told John Deere has a joystick machine as well, I don't know if it has a steering wheel or not. They also have one with a small steering wheel, and electric paddles in the armrests, same configuration as conventional controls. On the Volvo being sold- my understanding is the rights to the graders has been sold to SDLG. Supposedly SDLG is a Sweedish company, but I'm going off third-hand knowledge. Was also told that their stuff is produced in China, Africa, and Korea? (There's a third one and I THINK it Korea, really not sure on it though). Was also told that Volvo is a shareholder in SDLG and that typically they simplify designs that they build. Volvo is also a shareholder in Deutz Ag- hence the engines in the graders since "October 2002"- When the new emissions changed the landscape. Anyhow, sorry for the long diatribe. Edit- I remember now, it's not Korea, it's India. And I have no idea what specifically is produced where with them, just those are the specific divisions.
John Deere does not make a joystick model but they GP series has armrest controls. Little sticks in the same arrangement but on small pads on each armrest. It can be steers from the left stick as well but it still have a small steering wheel. I think it would be a fun machine to operate. Anybody out there been on them??
Only a Cat Certified Rebuild (CCR) will give a machine a new Serial Number, a dealer rebuild does not, however deep into the machine it goes. The reason is that the CCR basically puts the machine back into as-new condition and gives the same warranty afterwards as a new machine. Despite the program being administered by Cat, the local dealer shop actually does the work. We had a number of our wheeled & tracked tractors plus graders put through the Cat Certified Power Train Rebuild (CPT) process via our local dealer with extremely good results. The rebuilds were generally done at the 15,000 hours+ mark. The machines will get exactly the same again when they get to 30,000+. As someone who used to work in the technical dept for the Cat dealer of which you speak, although not in Canada I hasten to add, we could rebuild a machine to any standard the customer requested - for a price.......... the only caveat was that the chassis had to be in good condition. After that everything will be a bolt-on.
Thanks for the clarification on both of those. A friend of mine ran the Deere with the controls in the armrests while his Champion was being repaired from fire damage. He wasn't a huge fan of the Deere cab (things do fall into places by the windows where retrieval is a pain!), but he didn't like the controls because once the armrests were in a comfortable position, he lost some visibility. On the Rebuild/ Refurbishment program, thanks for the clarification on that. That may mean for contract purposes, it would have to be the CAT program. I was really impressed with a D10R they rolled out for Ledcor, it was well done.
If the customer wants a "new factory fresh" machine to emerge from the ashes of a used one then a CCR is the only option because it's the only way to get a new Serial Number. Serial Numbers for CCR machines keep the same prefix as the original machine and start at 75001, so for example a D10R with an original S/N of AKTxxxxx would become AKT75001 if it was the first machine of that prefix worldwide to be CCR'd. The new S/N is assigned by the factory.
Have you put in any time in in a "M" yet? My boss MIGHT be considering trading up one machine and I was wondering what you thought. Is it something that you feel comfortable plowing snow at 15-20 mph in? Or sliding down a hill backwards? Are the wing controls clumsy to get a hand over on to?
If you run blade as much as I do I find im not as wore out at the end of the day the steering will take some time getting used to, its designed the slower you go the faster the steering is and they do break down more. however I would still go for a h anyday over m you just dont get the same feel for the machine with electric over hydraulic
Thanks. I wondered about the electric over hydraulics. My boss loves the last h, it's been very good. But he's required to have younger machines for the contract, (but that h isn't going anywhere- it's an excellent spare). We should be able to demo a m in the summer, it'd be nicer if a guy could demo one snow plowing though. Resale on John Deere's and Volvo's just isn't as good as Cat. I wish they would consider a small pedestal with a steering wheel and some kind of more conventional controls, even if they still ended up being electric over hydraulic (something that could be easily switched out for the joysticks). Just when you've done something one way for 20 years is all.
Unfortunately almost everything is going to electric over hydraulic. Easier to run wires than Hydraulic hoses. Sometimes it's good and sometimes it's not. I think you would appreciate an M demo in a slower environment for the first time. The steering is a little tricky until you get used to it. I don't have trouble with it when working but roading is still another story. Of course plowing snow you wouldn't be going as fast, but it still could catch you off guard. Everything is in the opposite hand so you will be relearning all of the controls.
Thanks. I wondered about things being in opposite hands before. Ran into that with some little crawlers. Biggest thing for us is that we can get comfortable snow plowing with them. We have come down several hill backwards and sideways (gotta love freezing rains, even chains don't help much then). And it's gotta be something that you're comfortable doing 14-22mph plowing snow in or the ridges off the wing catch drifting so bad. I have no doubt that something slow would be best for first time though. On the flip side, if you're coming down a hill backwards, you can get an m into reverse faster. I do kinda like the Volvo for that. The John Deere and the H, you're already sliding by the time you can get the shifter around to the other side.
Yes I have plowed lots of snow in the Colorado Mountains with a grader. Hopefully you get a 6 wheel drive as it is a lot better in the hills. Here is Missouri we have lots of freezing rain a well but I don't usually have to get out and plow snow with them. It is usually one or the other but not both. Yes the M will shift a lot faster in reverse. In fact they don't even recommend using the Modulator pedal. Just flip the switch. One thing you want to watch though, If you are use to using the articulation a lot backing up, It is awkward. I know it is ok after you get use to it but for some reason my mind wants to twist the handle the wrong direction when going backwards. If I slow down and think about it I am ok but I still tend to do it from time to time. Make sure you practice that some before just taking off and doing it. With the joystick steering it is very easy to just use the front wheels when backing up. I like that part a lot. Good Luck
Okay. I just seen Missouri. If you lived in Colorado, no doubt you seen snow. If you are having problem with the artic, then a good chance I will too. I have a hell of a time with the Cat skid steers backing up too.:bash Seems backwards to me. We toggle between F & R on the Volvo too. It is pretty nice for cleaning up intersections and highway aprons. Thanks for the help.
I posted a couple of pictures earlier in this thread of a place I plowed snow at. Of course you probably see a lot more snow than I have way up north. We had a Volvo joy stick control on loan for a week or so but I never got the opportunity to run it. It seemed fairly nice from what little I have seen of it. I don't think the joysticks twist on them though. Not positive though.
My guess would be that we see the same snow as Colorado. A little colder is all. My neighbour on the farm growing up was from Denver, I'm going on what he told me about there. This year we didn't have any snow! Well a little. But I think we had more rain then last June. And when there's no snow with it, there's nothing you can do with it. Sandvik's leave a few grooves you can see, but really do a limited amount. The two extremes of the last two winters make for some real adventures! I can live with electric over hydraulic or pilot controls. But I do wish they would consider what's comfortable to an operator in adverse circumstances. Is the steering is predictable for you backing up, then it's probably all fine. An operator probably isn't articulating when going down a hill backwards. How often do they do the "realignment"? Could the machine be wanting to do that procedure at a time you can't afford? Or would that be unlikely? The salesmen aren't sure. Can you still get a machine off railroad tracks or off a highway when turning around? What are the "m"'s like to work on? The pump isn't under the cab anymore. That could be a plus. Are the valves in a good place if there's problems? It looks like you don't end up removing the tanks to get at certain things like the "h". Typically the warranty period is about half their service life for us.
I used a 160M for the first time, for about 4 days last winter, to push back leases, while my 160H was in for repairs. The biggest difference was the controls are backwards. On the H, the gear selector is on your right hand and the dozer is on a left hand stick, on the M the gear select is on the left hand joystick and the dozer is on a separate fingertip button on the right. I had 30+ leases to push the snow back to the berms, needless to say I stalled the grader a lot the first 2 days... Roading was very scary the first time as I had over 35 kilometers of narrow winding hilly road, thankfully it was a quiet road so no witnesses to my wanderings, lol. Don't expect to be productive the first day or so, and don't do any close work. It takes a while to reprogram your muscle memory. I'd say by the time you work your first 4 shifts it gets a lot easier. In November of this winter I had an opportunity to work with my Dad so we have been sharing a 160M that we have leased from my uncle. This is his second winter on an M and my first full winter, we like it so much that I'm eagerly awaiting a new to us, 2010 160M with lower hours to ship from Kramer in Regina. Hopefully I can post some pictures of them side by side tomorrow night. Due to the slow down in the oil industry and the milder winter with less then average snow, I haven't had the opportunity to get some serious wide winging done, my Dad loves it, but I do miss my 160H for that application. Last winter in my H I was out in the ditches clearing willows and shrubs on some low sections of roadways getting the snow into the tree lines. Nothing like watching the snow come off a 3' bench scaring the grouse out of the trees . The only way I'd go back to an H is if we can come up with a good candidate for a CCR so we'd have trouble free spare. The only things I truly miss is having cab vents, and having somewhere to put my lunch box, and the upper glove boxes, with the M's you have to have the fan running either on heat or A/C or the windows fog up. Use your seat belt, cause sliding out and having the grader come to an halt is not fun.
Thanks for the review. We're reluctant, but the resale isn't great on these other machines. CAT doesn't seem to have any interest in re-offering a conventional controls machine, and other options are further dwindling, so I suspect I'll have to get used to one.
I missed quite a few days here haha. I don't know how cold it gets up there but When I lived in Westcliffe, Colorado (about 9,000 ft above sea level) it would sometimes get as cold as 30 below. It didn't seem that cold as it was a dry cold. Hardly any humidity there. It still froze things up pretty good though. When backing up that M it isn't too bad. I just never used the articulation backing up. I used the mirrors a lot too. But the realignment is a pain in the rear. It seems ever other time I jumped out of the seat to do something and got bad in the cab I would have to do it again. It sometimes is a little time consuming as well. It doesn't seem to do it at all when you are in the seat moving down the road. I don't think the computer would let that happen but who knows? There is also a supplemental switch that you can turn on to keep it steering in case of problems. I never messed with it to see if it worked or not hahaha. They still turn pretty sharp and you would like the quiet very much. Without that pump underneath you there is not very much noise. The worse noise I noticed was the brakes. They are Hydraulic brakes rather than air brakes. It makes this strange noise sometimes. There are a lot of things that are a plus on them but I thing there are a few that aren't.
Thanks for getting back to me. If the reallignment is more often then not when you get in or out, I can live with that. I seen how long it can take. I guess we get a little colder here, we see -40 (fahrenheit) from time to time. The wind chills are the real hoot. Hydraulics and steering don't work real well when you're talking -50 with the wind chill.
Yeah they get a little slow for awhile haha. With the newer oils and synthetic it is much better than it used to be with just a straight weight oil. That brings me to another subject. The M is very fussy about not wanting to move at all until it goes through a warm up period. (or at least mine was). The H series would still move along at a slow RPM while working the Hydraulics to warm it up. The M will not even move until it gets to a certain temperature. I would sure think this could create a lot of trouble for you fellows up in that cold country. Cat may have different settings for up there too. You just never know with all of this computerized stuff. Of course it would be very important to use the proper oil in cold environment.
The only guy I know well that ran one, just told me his 14m was the exact same way. Kinda felt that it was machine that either should be double shifted in the winter or run inside if at all possible. Sounds like in the most severe cold, trying to get things moving could be a while.
M's are for sooks ( @#$@ ) H's n G's are boys machines. E's are mens machines.
I ran a 1972 14E for a while. It had a 13 foot board on it.
And the dinosaurs went extinct for a reason .........
I thought it was because they had a hard time texting with those massive claws and misspelled everything. Do you mean they didn't want to run those either when the clutches under the pedestal got worn and the levers started jumping around?
I guess I am getting closer to extinct as well. haha. I can't count the number of graders I have operated in my life. Mostly Cat & John Deere. The first old cat that you had to start with pony motor on the side standing by the tantems. Lots of hours on the old 99E's, About every one of Cat blades except the 24M. Sure wish I could have. I retired this year and union rules say I can not operate heavy machinery for anybody but another union company an very limited at that. I guess I'll just hang my hat up permanently. I sure will miss it though. Best of luck to all you young grader operators.
There is a parking brake override feature on the M’s which helps you realign the steering control. The steering is deactivated when the parking brake is engaged and your body leaves the seat. If the occupant light is on in the dashboard the steering should be off. If the control is not aligned with the front tires and you turn the parking brake switch to the off position you get a Level 2 Warning (flashing light and scripted warning “steering not aligned”). At that point simply push in the inching clutch pedal fully, select forward or reverse then let the inching clutch out, as the machine moves and reaches 1.5 mph the front tires will automatically move themselves to realign with the steering lever. You will get a Level 3 Alarm as soon as you select forward or reverse, the alarm will stop as soon as the front tires realign themselves at 1.5 mph. Remember the pedal has to be full depressed before you select a direction or the override feature will not activate. Even if the front tires are steered fully to the right and the lever is all the way left they will realign automatically if you do the steps properly; seatbelt fasten, body in seat, park brake switch in off position, inching clutch pedal fully depressed, etc. etc. The procedure is listed in the OM&M. Use caution doing it this way the first time! In regards to the oil; on our M Series in Alaska we ran Mobil Delvac 0W/20 Synthetic in everything (transmission, hydraulics, tandem cases, & front spindles) except the engine (Delo 400). It’s amazing oil in extremely cold weather. The only problem we had with the Mobil Delvac synthetic; in the summer time if you were roading the machine at high speed (7th & 8th gear) you will get some oil spillage out of the tandem breathers since the oil is very thin. Best Regards, Randy
Thanks for the clarification on that Randy. I'll probably have to reread it a couple of times, but sounds like we are going to try and demo an M this fall soon as there's a bit of snow.
Right @Fatgraderman I'll agree with you. I'll read it too.
I have done that steering thing a couple of times by accident .Didn't realise it was an actual procedure. I have around 3000 hrs on 12m now and had to run a 12h yesterday while mine was in for service. Man I was all over the place. I really like that m .
Excellent 3000 hrs journey in 12 months.
Yeah I know I was just having a bit of fun Old Boy. Mind you some of those old E's & G's ( with the right operator ) would put some of these new boys to shame. :drinkup