hit a gas line fri afternoon .restruant ower septic was plugged of course he said nothing else is burried around here. well i didnt call for locates and wosh. what do you think that will cost me???:Banghead
what ever it does cost you feel lucky. It could have cost your life.
When you get the bill, pass it along to the property owner. Hopefully you had something in writing, or at the least a witness that heard it said, so it isn't your word against his. Glad to hear that other than ego, everyone's safe though.
That is precisely why "Call Before You Dig" exists. Thank God that you're still around to generate the thread. :notworthy:notworthy:notworthy:notworthy
I'd count your blessings, you could be six feet under right about now. Should have called in a locate. Not only did you break the law, but you could have killed yourself or someone else in the process.
There is zero excuses for not making a "one call". I am not trying to sound harsh but this is very serious, I hope something was learned from this. I go to seminars all the time where they show pictures with results of gas line strikes. Sometimes a line is hit unknowingly and the gas follows the pipe back into a house that may be a block away,the basement of the house fills with gas,egnites and levels half a block. It takes 3 minutes at the most to make the call.
Well your lucky to still be here but probably not so lucky once they get thru with you for not calling digsafe first plus the bill you will get from probably the gas and or fire dept/police if they had to show up. When it seams so easy go the long way and wait for the markings then if it is hit legaly your coveredif it's not where they marked, but saftey wise your still in trouble .
I can't say I'd admit to doing what he did but I know he either learned a lesson or will find another line of work after it is all said and done.
Here in my town years ago a construction dig disrupted a gas line where it was not noticed, ( or maybe it was) the building 3 doors up the cellar filled with gas and there was a huge explosion killing the owner and a few others... it was a restaurant that was just opening up for lunch time.... So of course there was the deal where in court did the builder know he pulled on a gas line, and of course who's fault it was, I forgot the out come...
these guys are right you should have called for locates first, I used to work for So. Cal. gas company and go to gas line hits by contractors, so the size of the gas line , how long it has been blowing, and how many guys on the repair crew are factors in the price. They would charge $300 to $750+for a hit. It's done so don't beat your self up, live and learn for the next day we all make mistakes.
To all who've suggested to ringer that he's lucky to be alive, because he failed to make the call, go back and review this thread: Making the call doesn't necessarily guarantee that the line will be located, now does it? He's probably working on an ulcer right now worrying about how much it's going to cost him, and he asked for help in preparing himself for that, and he's got guy after guy telling him what a bad boy he was. I'll bet he already knows that. I'm not faulting any one of you for reinforcing the safety message, but since we've kinda got that covered... Ringer, I don't know what it going to cost you, but you have my sympathy. I hope it's doesn't hurt you too bad.
Ringer, Goodonya for fessing up here. I don't see any point in keeping it a secret. Whats done is done and at least your still here to tell the tale and everyone can learn from it. I hit a 415 Volt cable awhile back...fair frightened the daylights out of me....and it was at that point I learnt about the so called "tolerances" that utilities supposedly work to. I'll never make the same mistake thats for sure. I post all my Fudge Ups here on HEF...well...almost all.
Man its reading this kind of stuff that makes me very hesitant to move forward with my backhoe company. So far each time I have went to dig ANYWHERE I have called the "call before you dig" number for our area. I mean even one time it was way in the back of one guys property, and I still called. I do not want to ever be posting that I hit a gas line, or power line on here.
I recently had a job where we get all the drawings from the utilities and started digging in an area where nothing was located and we found two water and one electrical service. By careful operation and a sneaking suspiscious mind we didn't damage anything (always have a spotter). Lesson here is if the drawings haven't been updated in a year or two, you can't rely on the loacte service so you have to document/diary your every move. The power company here is totally deficient of Any responsibility for their own cables or where they lay....its in the fine print.....you have the right to be screwed!.
I suggest that from a legal perspective you should make no further admissions. If you do you may be in breach of your proffesional indemnity agreement with your insurer. I am not suggesting that what you did is correct, as all the other experienced members have indicated that you were not. However the fact is, that to some extent, you were under instruction from the owner of the premises. You were in some respects operating as his agent. Your insurer's Solicitors ( I think you call them Attorneys in your neck of the woods ) may want to use this argument (weak though it may be in the circumstances). If you go "fessing up" to all and sundry you may blow any chance of mitigating the damage and your insurer will almost have a clause in the terms of your insurance contract which entitles it to void your policy for making admissions without it's prior consent.
mishaps happen because of many factors. In this case from what was told in the initial post: I hit a gas line, I didn't call in a line inspector. Legally not admitting anything is the right call. Had he had a pre-dig check list he would have seen his error in judgement be it experience or being in a hurry to get a job done. I say cover your six when ever possible because it is much easier to point elsewhere than have no options at all available backed in a corner. I know this guy has learned something from this event, he can only say what it is, and hopefully next time he'll be better prepared.
Too right to not go admitting liability but what is posted here will become a matter of the public record. He hit it and he didn't dial before. In Australia, if you are a sub and the prime tells you to go dig over there...and you hit something thats the primes problem....and that has been well tested in the courts. The basis for this is simply its the primes responsibility and he/she is the competent person. When a private individual gives you instructions then it can be a whole different ball game. At the end of the day (in the courts) the argument centres solely on who is "responsible" for the repairs not necassarily who actually caused the damage. Nick: I think you mean public liability insurance not professional indemnity. As far as I'm aware "tradesman" cannot get PI cover in Australia (and I didn't always drive a machine for a living) Here is an extract from one of our contracts for private customers:
Yes . Quite right. We don't know where he is exactly nor what his real name is. He may be Mr. Magoo writing a hypothetical to test our (metal), so to speak. I hope this is the case rather than the reality. We don't know the rules in his jurisdiction nor do we know if he has any insurance cover. He may have none. I think the unfortunate Gentleman or for that matter, Gentlelady ( One has to be gender non selective these days,and with good cause) should hereinafter say but nought , until he/she has considered his/ her options and consulted a relevant legal expert. I think there is uniform consensus on this topic so far. Yes, I gathered that you were not always a machine operator, even before you posted it, But then again neither was I. Regards.
It's unfortunate with all the litigation that goes on that we are brought to think like this. This thread has a lesson within that could help someone else to avoid the same problems, the message being always call underground utilities locator's before beginning an excavation project. That's what this board is all about, passing on information that can help others avoid problems in their work.
I was trying to down play the mitigation process with how the law works, but having said that it has stirred up a lot of comments mainly for checks and balances on the job. I hope the guy doesn't get jammed up and I hope he was not just goofing off to see the reactions of such a situation.
Well I have to agree with C B , He knows he screwed up so lets let that part of it go. About a year and a half ago I got a 1 1/4 gas linre that was not there. I wasn't even digging. I had a track go down in the mud , and as I came out of it,I snaggged the line with a track. I was told that in the end it cost $3500. I know its a bunch,but it could always be worse. Hope this helps, and good luck. Heath
Call before you dig A couple of days ago I was asked to clear a project from services. I had two call the phone company ( She could not understand english ). The cable company. The town twice because it is two different devisions water and sewer, and two gas companies ( supplier and distributer ) then I needed to do site visits for each one. I am not cleared yet and I have 20 hours invested. to do the test pits it will be 5 hours max. I think they are wanting to make things difficult just hoping that someone will hit their stuff so you could replace it. When I was out west it was a call to one company and you were cleared in a couple of hours. But like all things nothing will change till there is a local tragidy
Where out west did you used to dig buddy?
One must cover his rear at all times. By calling a locater service, liability is in a way put upon someone else back. Not that that really makes $00.10 worth of difference. In 1991 while working for Tarmac Const. on a sewer project, I hit a 4" gas main and an unmarked underground Edison line. The gas main was while shoving a water probe under a sidewalk. There was supposed to be at least 3' of cover over the gas main. Well, I hit it at 4-6" below sidewalk grade. As soon as I saw, smelt and herd the gas shooting out from under the sidewalk, I simply shut off my machine and found me a shady spot to sit for a while. The fire dept, local tv news people, So Cal Gas Co all showed and put on a 4 hr. dog and pony show. What a joke. That same week, while running a 400 Komatsu digging @ 5', I hit a unmarked Edison line. It blew a hole in the bucket and exploded a underground transformer about 3 homes down. Thank God that Rudy who was in the trench chasing me wasn't hurt. On that incident, both the locater service and SCE missed marking the crossing. That one stirred up a hornets nest. I don't remember who was to blame but I never received any kind of warning or writeup.
that was king of funny Roll over Pete! I've contracted to the natural gas company up here in BC Canada for 30 years and have a bunch of stories to tell about dog and pony shows that is for sure. I seen hits from cutting the line from a shovel to hits that were so bad that there was explosions and near deaths. Natural gas is a funny thing, because it usually is perfectly safe if you treat it with respect, but the minute you lose that respect it bites you in the rear and hard! Up here in Canada, well in BC anyway you are required to call Dial before you dig for locates on gas lines outside private property. Inside private properties you either rely on the homeowners telling you where they "think" it is or you locate it yourself using a metro tech or some sort of locating equipment........even if it is a set of welding rods bent over and used as witching rods! If you hit a gas line, usually your business insurance will cover this.......or the home owner is responsible if he said the classic "there is nothing in here" saying. Working on the gas crews we use alot of descresion when it comes to charging the small guy or a homeowner working in his yard. We have the ability to write on the damage report "no charge" or charge out at 50%. I have heard and sometimes seen bill over the 100,000.00 dollar range, but these are extremes. The gas company up here will caculate the amout of gas escaped or lost if you will, the time it takes us as a full crew to fix it and all of the materials used, plus an overhead.........that makes it expensive. It also depends on whether it was a steel line or a P.E. (plastic) line. P.E. is really easy and fast to fix so the expenses are less. Sometimes the old adage applies.......**** happens and its just a plain old mistake.......and thats where the crews compasion and decresion comes into play. New regulations now make things alot harder in the customers eyes.....you cant just jump in and plug it like the old days, you have to dig back and squeeze or whatever. Or wait for equipment to arrive that is way to far away and takes hours to arrive.
Ringer Anyone who runs equipment for a living has had close calls with either underground or overhead utilities, they are full of crap if they tell you different. Chock it up for experiance and learn from your mistakes. Four years ago one of my opperators pulled a gas line out from under the bottom of a pool. It was days after a major hurricane hit our area and the pool poped out and was cracking the wall of a house. We called in locates and the flags were 10' from the pool and it was a line that the pool contractor ran to the gas main to run a pool heater. Locate companies locate public utilities only !! Private utilities are up to the owner to locate. ointhead
I have hit two gas lines and both times it was unnerving. It sure causes alot of stress. The first time was a small, very small stream that divides my property and neighbors. It was beginning to fill up and erode both properties. My neighbor discussed it with me to just take my backhoe and clean out some of the trees and limbs that fallen in it and other debree and to straighten it back up and clean in out. From what everyone told me that if I contacted the EPA or local township or soil conseerv. that I would run into all kinds of red tape and never be able to get it done. So I just decided to do it my way. "just do it" as Dad use to say. Everything went well till the last 2' to clean out. There was a large branch in the stream and as I hooked on to it to pull it out, I snagged a gas line running across the creek un marked and the same depth as the water. I jumped off the backhoe and shoved a shovel handle in the line and called the gas co. It was Fri. evening and every one gone. Had to send out a special crew to shut the gas off. Said it would be my responsibility to repair it since it was on private property and went to another neighbors house. They were pretty leinant. Just gave me a ass chewing. They let me repair the line myself (although I am not certified) then sent the inspector out to inspect it. The neighbor whose house it went to could care less that it was a exposed line, he just wanted it fixed it my expense. It cost me about $150 in fittings. The gas co never did bill me for it, I dont think. Another time I was working on a septic line in a private trailer park. The owner of the park said there was no gas line where I was diging, positively. Bam, I hit a gas line. Evacuated nerby residence at once, pluged gas line, called fire dept. and gas co. Got another rectum chewing. The gas co. wouldnt have located it any way because there was no tracer and no one had a record of a gas line being there. Owner of trailer park paid the fine which was about$200. Since then I am almost parnoid about digging any where. I always call before I dig. I come home one day and I seen my wife digging with a flower spade on the property line to plant some flowers. She had dug about 2" . I told her to stop, I had to call it in. They came out and marked it and another inch down and she would have hit the telephone line. I was going to replace our mailbox post. I called it in and right under my post was a fiber optic line. Over my short time in the business I have hit severl un marked and un known elec lines to places the owner didnt even know about..(utilities will not mark private lines, such as lines to garage, pools, out side lamps etc) So there is always a risk. Everytime I see a piece of pipe of any kind when digging or dozing I almost go into cardic arrest. Hope they are not too hard on you.
I suspect rules for this are diferent from area to area- "Digsafe" as it is called around here will not do private property - only public ways This is in Derry , N.H. How Many of you Have : Driven on Expired medical card ? Upgraded to bigger trk and did not get proper license ? Left to early or stayed on the road to late with over size load ? Did not redflag load with overhang? Lost rear lights on trk. or trailer and drove home any way? (thats either brake , directional,or tail lights) And you snow plow guys how about WIPERS- Defrosters, or just plain quit chargeing - if still running most will try to get home This list could go on and on - but the point is we all try to do things safely - but we all use poor judgement at times ! Several years ago a woman constantly complaned about speeders in front of her house, this includrd letters to the editor, town meetings ,etc. The local Police setup a Radar Trap, First Person caught ? The Woman ! Fourth Person- her husband Some times it is easier to see somebody else's mistakes without realizing our own So far I Have not seen anybody give hints on what his penalty will be I am sure he is not the only person to have done this
The 1 call or Dig Safely call can not be told too many times.Underground utilities are everywhere.In my part of the world,utility operators will mark out on private land as long as their services come into your area.If you have your own propane tank though with a line running through your property,you are on your own to know where exactly that is.What sucks is that Fito,digging for his bone ,can find a cable TV line as those guys hardly ever trench deeper than 6'' on service lines.Also,to be aware of is services that come into the house from the rear,they don't always come from the front street as you would expect.One time,way before 1 call,my client told me there were absolutely no utilities in his back yard where I was re-grading/topsoiling.Thank God the stubborn ''root'',so I thought, was made of steel and not plastic like todays gas service lines.Never hurt it,unbelievable.Also,nowadays,for electric and gas markouts,I always call and demand the utility do the marking---NOT pro-mark,expert mark, or want-a-mark type companies who only care about their fee.
So many times the Call Before You Dig people have been wrong, not their fault, just crap not well documented from 40 years ago. It can be expensive, I'm thinking, depending on how long it takes them to fix it, there can be fines on top of it. Check your local ordinances dude, you might get a good idea!