I've only done a few jobs off the farm with my D6c and I'm always unsure what I should be charging. The last job I did was some fence line clearing for a neighbor that was about 7-8 hrs work. It was only a mile away so I just roaded the tractor. I've just about got my trailer refurbished so I will be able to move the dozer. I don't know if I wan't to go after anything but smaller jobs like fence dozing, clearing hedge trees, cleaning waterways, etc. Local guys doing it for a living will be much faster and better at anything very big. Keeping in mind that I'm self taught, and probably don't work as efficiently as someone with years of experience, what is a reasonable hourly rate? Not looking to do this full time, just a few jobs as I can get them to offset some of the cost of owning & maintaining the machine (and the truck & trailer).
Yair . . . D6c10k. That is I real nice looking D6. Just a bull tilt blade no tree pusher or rippers is only half a machine and around here would find it hard to get a job even at very low rates. Cheers.
In my opinion I think you should keep your hourly rate up close to the same as the 'for hire' machines of equal size in your area. Within $10-15 an hour. Then adjust your hours according to what you feel you might have lost in efficiency. Consider having a minimum charge because if you don't every farmer in your area that has 2 terrace breaks (for example) will be calling you. Ya Scrub..... that's all you really need around these parts. A dozer with a ripper can sometimes run a week or two longer in the late fall when the frost is setting in than a dozer without a ripper.
I 2nd the idea of that being nice looking machine there D6C10K . Lots of machines around here with just blades on them...... Looks like you have converted the blade control to the D6D style if I am seeing things right in the picture? Up here in Ontario, our charge rate for ours is about $105-$110 per hr. in CDN funds.
Doing this daily , a D6T gets 150 an hour around here. I think 115 would be fair maybe 125. They push good just slower on other things.
Nice looking D6 & truck rig D610K ! On dirt & clearing jobs I generally just quote a figure to the potential customer after talking to them . Don't play the per hour rate game any more on the dirt side . The exception to that is with the crane & wrecker side . We charge buy the hour and when customer calls they aint fishin for a price .It all happens fast and they they want it moved buy one means or another then send them a bill after the dust clears . Now if I get greedy the customer will look elsewhere for a solution to the problem . We got to make a little money .... Take good care of the customer and they will take care of you Bro . Start small with a few jobs & go with " Gut Feeling " on what to charge for it .
Very nice tractor and truck!
Older machine doesn't necessarily make a difference unless maybe it's from the 50's or in poor shape. You can have a new machine and a crappy operator. It all comes down to the particular job and how confident you are with your operating skills and doing what the customer wants. I remember one jerk of a customer I cleared snow for. I spent extra time to dig up all the hard packed snow and ice, they had to walk on, that had never been cleaned at the business and gave a bill for 2 1/2 hours. I have a skid steer with a 5 1/2' snow bucket and did it after hours. He complained that he could have got it done for the same price by a wheel loader in half the time. The wheel loader couldn't have cleared the ice but to this day I still don't know what he was complaining about. I did a premium job and didn't charge anymore than he had paid for a wheel loader in the past when there was no ice to deal with. I think he somehow figured the job should be cheaper with a smaller machine. If there would have been no ice, it would have been cheaper. Some customers are either clueless or cheap. This guy was just an azz hat!
That's correct....found D6d linkage from a salvage yard and built an enclosure to hold the control. Made it big enough so if I were to eventually add rear hydraulics for a scraper I'd have room to mount the valves in it too. Just added the side screens in the last couple of weeks and am glad I had them when doing the fence dozing. Lots of hedge trees close together that would have been difficult without the screens. So far they work great.
Picked up the trailer off craig's list pretty cheap. It was kind of ugly, but the frame is in real good shape...no cracks or weld repairs. Changed the dayton 15" wheels/tires over to 10R17.5's. Reworked the lights & wiring so I can hook it to either a 12v civilian truck or 24v military without changing anything. (two different connector sockets on neck) Had some standing dead burr oak trees so I sawed up enough to make new decking and had a cottonwood I'd pushed out that I used to make a couple of long planks for the outriggers. Had a guy come and sandblast, prime & paint it last week. I hate to sandblast and a local guy works pretty reasonable. Made me cringe a little though....did the whole thing, blasting & painting, without any type of respirator. Said he's been doing it for years, but that's going to come back to bite him. Got the truck through Gov't auction. Did a few small repairs but otherwise it was in pretty good shape....tires were brand new. If I get to doing more dozer work, the license & insurance on the truck will be a good portion of my operating cost.
I am jealous of your rig now! I had neighbors and friends coming out of the woodwork when I brought her home but I am doing my own stuff first. I will end up doing some other projects off the farm but unless they pay for a truck to haul it their out of luck. Still wouldn't have a clue what to charge either.
What part of Iowa are you from, I'm from northwest Iowa and am looking for someone to do some sandblasting for me.
South central Ia. The guy I had do mine is just outside Bevington....about 15 min south of Des Moines. I'm guessing that might be a little far for him but who knows. He does occasionally sandblast and paint the inside of grain bins that have gotten rusty.....can't imagine how nasty that kind of work is.
I guess if your's is half a machine, my JD450 is probably 5% of a machine. It's not the size, its how you use it..lol
Yair . . . StxRancher. I was just pointing out how markets and customer expectations are different in different places. To be cost effective you need an angle blade to clear along existing fences and, even for pioneering new lines its handy. You need rippers to effectively push dirt. You need rippers to cut the roots of large trees before you tip them out with the pusher. Most farmers here know this and work would be scarce for a bare azzed tractor with no angle blade or pusher. Cheers.
D6c10k I've been following this thread to see what kind of rates people throw out there. I bought a dozer and skid steer for personal use around the ranch and like you have been getting asked to do work for other people. I keep turning them down but as I find less and less to do for myself I'm starting to think more about it. I'm thinking about charging around $15-20 per hour less than going rate to start with or maybe even do some trading. I don't think I would be stealing work from the pros as they really don't like the smaller jobs I would be doing. The guy working for me has a new job for us everyday it seems. I just keep telling him wait until we're done around here. I already have too many irons in the fire but it would be nice to have some income instead of just out going from the equipment. It's also hard to tell what people are thinking when they ask if you can do a job for them. I tend to think they are looking for a cheaper rate or they would just call somebody that doe's this stuff for a living.
Pretty much the same dilemma I have....I'd like to get the machine to pay a little of it's keep but it's hard to know what to charge and how big of a project to take on. A couple of people that have asked if I do work were wanting to pay unreasonably low rates...mostly because they don't have the money to pay anything more. No point in doing it for nothing. Rates around here seem to be around $125 or a little more for experienced operator with decent equipment. Doing a couple of small jobs that I did't have to truck the dozer I charged $90 and I don't think I'll get hurt with that considering my investment. If I get a few jobs under my belt I'll get a better feel for my expenses/upkeep. Don't quite have the truck & trailer ready to go yet and I may get my eyes opened when I find out what insurance will be for the truck. If I can get by using it as a "farm" truck for a while it will reduce the cost quite a bit.
We are pretty much in the same boat. By the end of this week I'll have put 400 hrs on the dozer this year. With doing all my own repairs operating cost are right at $25 an hour. The includes an operator, fuel, and repairs. My repair bill would probably be at least triple if I had to hire the local dozer mechanic. Repairs would be my main concern working for the public. I know I wouldn't want a job I hired done to be held up 3 weeks while a weekend warrior found time to make repairs. All that being said I think I could make money at $75 an hour but would really need $85-$90 to make it worth my time over the long run. Average cost around here for dozer work run $140 for a D6 and $100-$125 for a smaller 100hp dozer like mine. These guys are all about 4-6 weeks out on work. You have a sharp rig. I thought about a D6D when I bought mine but really wanted to be able to use my pick up and gooseneck to haul with. Other option with bigger machine was getting a local road contractor to move the machine. He charges around $100-150 for a 20-30 mile move which isn't too bad considering the cost of owning a truck. Wouldn't be nearly as fun though .
Although not equipment work, what I've found satisfies my operating a machine shop (2nd income, no employees, no growth desired) was to figure what I thought for rough costs, what I wanted to make, and a little float money to keep things running/upgraded. Then I took that number and and added 50% because otherwise you'll go broke. That was my starting point. It quickly became apparent that I was swamped, so I raised the rate. Work dropped off a touch to a manageable level, then started swamping me again. I repeated the process until the work load was where I wanted to be. Everybody's happy. If someone doesn't want to pay the rate, they go somewhere else, no hard feelings. I have users who have stayed happily from the beginning. The phone still rings more than I'd like it to most of the time. Not everyone agrees with this, but it has worked for me. I strive to keep the work top notch, and most who want the quality have no issues paying for it. I say set your rate at 80-90% of what the other local options are charging for a like sized machine and fine tune it from there. Greyson
You'll always get the people that consider themselves your buddy and you'll do work for them for next to nothing. Tell them $200/hr. minimum 4 hours and deposit up front. They're the same idiots that will complain at the end of the job and try and haggle on the price even more. You don't want these kind of people ever!
As you go forward, make a list of good customers and bad customers. Never work for the bad ones. It's not worth it and it may cause a missed opportunity for a good customer. I have many repeat customers. Some good and some are great. I give a slight break to the ones who never dicker or complain and pay immediately. I want them coming back as it makes business easy. It's as much the man as the machine. I've seen 20+ year operators who can make a mess of a project and still charge the customer for the clean-up. They never really caught on. Some new guys with a little coaching become efficient in a very short time. Pay attention to how others are doing a project and adjust accordingly. Pay attention to the techniques you read about here because there isn't a better source of information on the web. I charge $90/hr for a 25,000# LGP dozer with a 6-way $120/hr 45,000# LGP dozer with a straight blade $130/hr for my 200 class excavators with laser First hour is $300 per machine to cover my move. I've been bidding most of my jobs now and can get a more per hour that way but there is some risk. $45-50/hr welding or wrenching in my shop and $65/hr on the road but those depend on the job $50/hr to survey a project and will sometimes throw that in on the deal if I get the job. Shop rate will be going up as I plan to over double the size and add a lot more tooling.
once you get some jobs under your belt and have an idea what your market can support, you can always adjust your price from there. I agree with the bid jobs too, everyone knows what they are getting to start out, usually a ballpark with a low number and high number. I never go over the high number as long as the customer doesn't change anything. but when pushed to do jobs by the hour, I have an 8 hour minimum to cover the move, @ $125 an hour for my td20 and my d5m. one did way more work but the other drank more fuel,, evened out. I know a lot of guys around here that charge a lot more than that for a dozer though... but your just paying for the shiny paint then.
interesting thread.. I have a 6D, but with a cat #6 ripper that I have found is only good for ballast as long as the cutting edges are good. If we had rock or really dry hard soil maybe different then. I helped build a dam a while back and took all the shanks off while I pushed out all the goo. I have charged 120/hr, wish I had your lowboy. farmers around me have gotten so large that most own better iron than any contractor, so work for me now is just what my place needs.
I have ran into the same situation with equipment. The key is to do the job better than they can. I grew up on a farm and know exactly how we operate. Money is getting tight with prices down now so times are a bit slow. I've noticed that they are a bit competitive so if the neighbors ditch looks and works better than theirs, they want better even if they can do it themselves. I work for a number of property owners that own their own dozers and excavators because I do good work. Do quality work at a fair price and the work keeps coming in. Good quality beats a cheap price everyday. I thought it was going to be tough to compete with $30k+ GPS equipment but it still takes a good operator on the machine. It's all in how you use the tools that you have. Spend a little of your time to kick down any ruts you left on the road loading or unloading, don't leave shop rags or other junk laying on the job site, and be there when you said you would. People see the differences. Sometimes the little things will make a bigger difference than price per hour. Sell yourself on quality.
Yair . . . oldirt. Re your comments about your D6. You are a fortunate bloke to have a ripper exactly matched to your machine and yes you would find the tractor quite different to run without it there as a counterweight. If you measure the length of your tines below the mainbeam that is the depth of cut you should be taking every time you back up to get a blade full . . . if you can do that with out ripping all well and good. About two in one hundred dozer hands know how to move dirt with a dozer. To get best life out of the machine and the most dirt moved for the fuel used soil should be pushed not cut. Cutting edges are to protect the bottom of the mould board. US soils may be different but, in various places throughout Australia, PNG and the Pacific Islands I have seen very few cases where production can't be improved with a two tine straddle rip . . . three tines are often ineffective due to clumping and tree roots. Cheers.
Local family here does earthwork. Own 7 or 8 dozers, mixed lot, Cat, Komatsu and a Dresser. One Komatsu is new this year. Plus they have scarpers, graders 4 wheel loaders and such. Couple of excavators too. None of the dozers have rippers and they do a fair amount of fence line and land clearing. We have a lot of red oak, some ash and cottonwood too. Rick
scrub, I have used the ripper on occasion, last winter the wx opened up for a couple weeks and I was able to build some more terraces, but I had to break up the frost first to get it out of the way. I was going to save the first foot for topsoil anyhow, so that worked out ok. ripping warm dirt here doesn't really help much, usually burns about as much cat time as working without. I can fill my blade in about 30' the way it is. A sharp bit will outcut a worn flat one every time I have switched them. the only way to push a load of dirt is to put your blade into it and move forward. just gouging doesn't help in the end when you have to run it all down, a good hand will cut only what he needs without a leaving holes everywhere to fill later which turn into mud bogs after the first rain. our dirt is light, rock free, and very deep. many hills have a hundred feet of soil that some call sugar clay, because of how it acts when it rains on bared areas. Twisted.. most of these guys will never admit they made a mistake. If they did they wouldn't own a 300 hoe, D6R, dual 25 yard scrapers pulled with a huge tractor. that's life! I am old now anyhow so in a few years it won't matter.
Yair . . . Gotcha fellers no worries. olddirt, has summed up different methods pretty well. Generally speaking when bulking out the blade should load in the length of the track frame . . . however if you are consistently and methodically loading back into a slot in thirty feet with a D6 you are doing better than most. You are however cutting with the blade and not pushing Working on that interface between the rip and the hard floor without the dirt rolling too much is a whole different ball game. Cheers.
Yeah Scrub , in your opinion is there anything wrong with using the blade to cut the dirt Mate ?
scrub, I may have been a little ambiguous, once the max load has been achieved, there is no more rolling of dirt, it is simply being moved to the next location. loading the blade in this soft (usually pretty moist to almost mud) dirt with a blade that will not scour means it will never get filled. when I got this cat it's moldboard was beat up terribly with a huge hole that was covered over with a plank of steel. I could not get that thing to roll up a load no matter what so I had a piece of ar hardox 200 steel rolled to fit, and welded it on. it took a while to get it shiny, but when it did you could easily dip the blade AFTER it was fully loaded to scab off a high spot while carrying. it is no different than a farm plow except now the dirt has no place to go but forward (or around the side, which if you can slot does not happen). pushing narrow base terraces doesn't let you go very far in a slot before you have to move to the adjoining station and start all over again. all the while trying to keep the cut close to the same depth as you go so the farmer won't get bounced out of his tractor. I know I am in a lucky spot dirt wise, just east of me about 50 miles or so the topsoil is very shallow and the junk clay underneath is so tough they call it tigerpoop. spreading a load of dirt is not what you do, the whole blade will drop it off as one chunk and it is hard to get it to break up. interesting world.
Yair . . . Gotcha olddirt. I'm guessing "narrow base terraces" are what I know as "narrow base" contour banks . . . the farming is done between them rather than over them as is done with "broad base banks". It is remarkable how country can change with the seasons although only for a few weeks in my life did I ever see frozen dirt op in the high country. Cheers.
Hi all, obviously the dirt you guys work in is a lot different to ours (tiger poop). I'm with scrub on this one a dozer without rippers in these parts is like a bull without a d..k. I'd almost consider a farm loader useless without rippers aswell.
Unfortunately that's the type of soils we have here. Just a few inches of top soil and yellow clay below.
I guess we are lucky that the glaciers missed us here. scrub.. a nb terrace is grass front and backslopes. front is as steep as dirt will fall, backside is kind of variable depending on who is paying the bill. most want it as steep as possible, some dirt won't sit there for long so needs to be flatter which adds to the cost. I like a ridge of no less than 4.5' if they are built on the level. if they are graded to intakes it can be less at the highest portion, but higher at the intake.
Yair . . . Gotcha oldirt A bit like these? . . . . Cheers.
exactly like those.
Yair . . . Gotcha mate (grins) Cheers.
Yair . . . Just a couple of comments . . . . When I first started making those banks in the early sixties we set them out with a Yowie Level and a quiver full of fence wire pegs furnished with pink tape flags . . . that you beaut black poly pipe had just come out and I had one quiver hanging from my belt and one across my shoulder. The Yowie Level was essentially eighty feet of 1/2" garden hose with a few feet of dairy clear plastic grafted onto either end and the whole lash up and a dress-makers tape lashed to a six foot piece of 2"x1/2" pine board . . . the staff. In operation I would put a peg in at the starting point, the off-sider would hold his staff at the base of the peg, and I would find level out at the extent of the hose and then give a smidgeon of fall. We would proceed across the paddock leaving a slightly falling contour line of wire pins with pink flags. I would then jump on the D7 and do a pass with a twelve foot chisel plough set at about ten inches just missing the pegs and the off sider would sit on the plough and stick them back into the quivers. We would normally do three passes with the chisel plow the outside top tine mark signified the top toe of the bank and the outside bottom was the start of cut. We became quite proficient at this. I have no idea how such banks would be marked these days with GPS. In later years I saw surveyors with theodolites and what all setting out paddocks and I am quite sure it was maybe not quicker my old way but could certainly be done at less cost. The Yowie or Bunyip level was first shown to me by an old codger who had calculated and marked the spillway and high water level of a very large dam we built for him before the site was cleared. . . it was very thick scrub and without extensive clearing of sightlines (at the time) the simple devise was the only way it could have been done. I might add the water backed up for half a mile and, some years later when it filled, he very proudly sent me a message that at the far end of the water he had been out by three inches of so was all. Hijacking a thread again but I though it may be of interest to some. Cheers.
That's very interesting Scrub........ Around here they have GPS in the pickup trucks. The basically just drive according to the GPS and open the door and stick a flag in the ground every 50ft or sometimes every 100ft (depending on who is laying the terraces out)
For years they were used here in the states also. We called them water levels but exactly the same thing. We poured a lot of flat concrete using them to set grade also. Water still seeks its own level.
what gps can be used in a pickup and just drive around dropping flags? I haven't seen any that can differentiate altitude that closely. if it could it would be way too crazy expensive for an nrcs guy to have bouncing around in their box.. I use a lazer and just lay out level lines with a flag every 50'. then I go around with a four wheeler and pick them all back up again once the terrace is up. yes I am cheap.
The ones I've seen using GPS mounted on pickups are outfits like McAninch that use them mostly for rough grading. They mount the antenna on an arm on the back of the pickup box that will swing out over the side so you can measure from the antenna down to the ground, figure a cut/fill, and stick in a lath for the machine operators. With a little care it should be able get you a couple of centimeter accuracy on elevation. On most of the larger jobs the machines have GPS and a digital terrain model loaded so no staking at all is required for grading.
Oldirt, That's exactly what they do here. I believe the nrcs has been using GPS for 2 years now. Most have the receiver mounted on a mast on the left front fender of the pickup. Then the ones I have seen have a small handheld 'brain box' (for lack of a better term) that they use to map the terrace out with. It seems to be pretty accurate from what I can tell anyway.