I am a sales professional for a software development company and I am currently conducting research about the industry to see how most heavy construction machinery is serviced? From what I can currently understand, the heavy machinery is usually taken to a dealership to get serviced or repaired, or a repair technician from the OEM company is sent to the site to repair/ service any non-working equipment. Is this correct? Is there any other way the heavy machinery is serviced (e.g. is it sometimes shipped/ or components of it shipped to the OEM for them to service it at their facility)? Does the end customer (construction/ contractor company) ever has to fix machinery on their own (if that's the case do they hire, their own repair technicians)? From your experience which type of method is most frequently used in servicing heavy machinery? Thanks for any feedback provided, I really appreciate it, since I would like to learn in more detail how the heavy machinery industry works.
If I can not repair it or maintain it myself, I don't own it. I service in the field or at the shop depending on severity of the problem or need of maintenance. I don't drag a machine home just to change the oil or basic filters - that would be inefficient. I do bring it home for a full pressure washing prior to hydraulic servicing, if possible. Hydraulics must be kept clean to be done right. Spilled oils need to be cleaned off/out prior to putting machines back to work. I do most anything I can to avoid the dealers because of their pricing is so high. Why should I purchase a bushing from a dealer for $149 when I can find the exact replacement for under $7.00 online? Or purchase one for over $400 per unit when I can cut two out of a $65 bushing with some minor machining work? Only in the case of heavy labor intensive repairs will I consider hiring out the work. Think of swing bearings or a complete undercarriage as labor intensive repairs. I avoid the dealers like a plague if I have the option.
Service work is based upon Hours of use as well severity of those hours. Really dusty or exceedingly wet, highly abrasive conditions or even just simple dirt moves will garner different schedules, get into Demolitions work and the entire schedule aspect dissolves to an as necessary. Sampling oils on Cat Equipment can gain some time between intervals, running samples taken during services will define if soon enough or need to be extended. 80% of what I used to perform as to routine service was field work, needing major repairs before an all out failure was a shop trip.
A good friend is the engineer and owner of a large design build construction company. They have built Walmarts all over the US (who according to reports are a total PITA to work with by the way.) Their current large job is a stadium. I asked him about heavy equipment when I was dozer shopping. To my surprise they rent. Maintenance and service isn't their problem unless of course they get in a bind with down equipment.
It all depends on the nature of the repair. With regular maintenance (think oil, filters, grease, lights etc) it is not cost effective to transport the machine to a shop. Now you wouldn't rebuild a major component in the field (too many opportunities for contamination). However, it is not uncommon to remove the failed or worn out component from the machine in the field and transport the component to the shop for repair/exchange. Another variable is machine size. It is very easy to load a skid steer or mini ex on a trailer and pull it to a shop behind a 3/4 or 1 ton pickup. Its not so easy (or cheap) to load a D11 up to take to a shop. Virtually impossible to do with a large hydraulic or electric mining shovel.
This is the norm for most general contractors I've been around and it makes sense for their business model. GC's need a spread of specialty equipment to build complex projects and unless they are large enough to have an internal rental house it makes sense to rent from 3rd parties. There is a GC we work for who is larger enough to have their own internal rental fleet from hand tools all the way up to tower cranes. The equipment is all owned by the GC but is "rented" and charged to their projects as if they were renting from Sunbelt. All service is handled through the shop. Back to the OP question - We self perform 250, 500 and 1,000 hour services either in the field or at our yard if the equipment happens to be there. I like to bring every piece of equipment to the yard at least once a year for a "drop the belly pan" hot water wash. It needs to be more often but it doesn't always happen. Small repairs are done in the field as well by our staff. R&R items like alternators, water pumps, etc including A/C work we can handle in the field. Re-sealing cylinders, P&B's, undercarriage work and heavier repairs are done by others in their shop.
That reminded me of something I was told back in the mid 1960's. At that time ATT was running a large underground cable from I believe Boston to Chicago, that thing had to be around 4 inch diameter and most of the wires in it were something line 20 gauge! Well that cable just happened to go straight down the middle of our driveway. Dad, who worked at the quarry where I ended up a few years latter was talking to some of the equipment operators and he asked about how and where they service the equipment, I think there were at least three D-8's along with some other equipment. Anyhow the answer to the servicing question was "We don't!" They said they bought new equipment at the start in Boston and when they get to Chicago they go up for auction, just keep fluids full till then!
Brand new stuff, the dealer sends someone out to do the first service. After that, we do our own service. We do most of our work within 50 miles of the shop, so if possible they bring it back to the shop. Anything big that needs a special permit to move stays on site. When daily walk around inspections are turned in at the end of the week, the hours are entered into the computer, and a notice will popup when a machine is getting close to service. The quarry equipment is serviced in the quarry. With the exception of trucks, and halftons, a lot of repairs are done by the dealer. The peatmoss companies all use Volvo, so the Volvo guy is in the area regularly. Once we have a list of to dos, he comes for a day or so. The Cat guy lives here, so he is easy to get, he also does Saturdays
It seems around here nothing gets serviced until it breaks down or is rendered useless because of lacking power. Pm service isn’t a big priority to so many here in Oklahoma.
We service pretty much everything ourself at the yard 99 percent of the time my iron is back by the weekend so in the last year I have only serviced 2 machines on the job cause they were there for extended duration and it was not worth the effort to haul to yard Now repairs it kinda varries we will take on most anything if we have time or it has to be done right now so its running tomorrow warranty goes to dealer otherwise the dealer is only involved in something that's a 20 hour plus job or specialty tooling you cant get around and we dont ever hit the jesus button known as field service unless the world is going to end or we are dead stranded it's way t ok expensive
Many companies have adopted run to failure tactics Many also find that does not pan out over time
Lot's of good responses. What I am curious about is why would a salesman from a software development company care about maintenance and service work on equipment? It's obvious in the post that you don't know anything about construction equipment. So what is your angle?
Wow... so many great responses. Thanks a ton to everyone who recounted their experiences in equipment servicing or repair. From what I gather is that dealers service machinery sometimes but certainly not the majority of the time. Most of the time the service/ repair is done by the general contractors themselves (I didn't know this). Which leads me to ask how do the GCs know how to service machinery? Do you get technical service manuals from the OEM when you purchase the equipment on how to do these repairs? Wouldn't the servicing individual need to be trained on how to repair the equipment or be a repair/service professional (since construction and equipment servicing are two different professions - how can someone be a master in both). Do the GC hire a service/ repair professional and put them on their payroll (for when the time inevitably comes to repair equipment)?
Everyone here likes to help those in need facing similar issues that we may learn from. Since you are obviously not part of the industry, what are you offering in return? You could do your own research on here by simply using the search function.
They don't. They employ (hopefully competent) people directly or they hire a competent professional (or company) to do it for them as an outside contractor. As CM said above there are also larger GC's who have an "Euipment Rental Division (ERD)" that is responsible for all their equipment. I worked for one such company years ago. A project would rent all the equipment they needed from the ERD, whose staff would also be responsible for its maintenance & repair from the time it arrived on site until the time it was placed off-hire and returned to them. Often for large projects the ERD would second a number of maintenance staff to the job site to carry out all that work and their cost would be included in the equipment rental cost. It's also a tax write-off because money is simply going round & round in circles within the same overall organization. No. Not unless you specifically include it in the Purchase Order for the machine - at extra cost. As an example a full set of manuals for Service & Parts for a single machine can cost anything from $800-$2000 depending on the manufacturer, size of machine, complexity of systems, etc, etc. As an alternative an ERD of a large GC might well pay much less in an annual subscription to an equipment manufacturer or dealer for access to internet versions of those manuals. And that's before you start talking about costs of the electronic diagnostic software & hardware necessary to communicate with today's electronically-controlled machines.
Hi John C., the company I work for has developed a product that can assist in technical servicing, this product is not exclusive to heavy machinery but to all equipment where specialized servicing knowledge is required for repair and service. I believe this could be of great value towards this industry and may even help cut cost for the end user as well as make servicing machinery both more convenient and a bit easier. I'm conducting research to learn more about the way equipment is serviced to gain knowledge about how to structure my sales pitch. Who knows, maybe you may benefit from our product in the future.
Unless it’s some kind of robot that can take my place while I drink beer and watch I don’t know what kind of software is going to help me service equipment. Most of the major manufacturers offer pm service to their customers and can even keep track of hours and service intervals via GPS. The problem from where I sit here in Oklahoma isn’t the availability of pm service but more so getting the customers to understand how important it really is and getting them to pay for that kind of service. So could you maybe expand on what type of software will improve this?
I can't really go into deep details (for fear of revealing trade secrets) but I can say that it is an augmented reality software that runs on smart glasses, the technician/ repair professional wears while servicing the equipment. There are several features that will assist in the servicing operations. No, it wont completely replace service professionals (e.g. robot) but it can make their job a bit easier in their servicing/ repair/ maintenance operations. I would like to contact OEMs with a proposal, but at the moment the only people that it will cut costs for is the end users/ owners of the equipment, not the OEMs, so I'm looking for any angle (specifically financial, since that's what any company ultimately cares about) to persuade them to make a deal with our company.
There is a software company called Alldata that services the automotive repair industry. They provide OEM manuals and repair info on line through subscription. Perhaps Max Dee is aware of them ?
This is just another way that the bean counters are trying to cut the cost of a mechanic. They compile data from us guys that actually know how to troubleshoot and repair the equipment. And have a knowledge bank with answers from our due diligence. They then hire some desk jockey to answer the phone and find these answers to help the mechanic/ parts changer find the problem. Thus giving companies and dealers the ability to hire a warm body to do the job a real mechanic can do for less.
Cat has a system like that. They call it "Dealer Solution Network" (DSN). Amongst the more experienced in the dealer world it was affectionately known as Don't Solve Nuthin'..........
I have seen something (probably similar to what is being proposed) by a CNC machine builder. They were trying to offer safety shields that would automatically provide technical information about the component the user was looking at. It reminded me of the read out from Terminator movie. You look at the coolant pump and it tells you the hours since the last service and could give exploded views with instructions on how to disassemble the component. I am not a heavy equipment mechanic, but from what I saw these high end gadgets could never replace a mechanic with real life experience. 'Hold on I can't evaluate the functionality of this hydraulic system without a WiFi connection' Take out some of the electronic gadgets and you will have a more reliable machine......Of course regular maintenance and skilled technicians are required.
If I have to wear glasses during a pm, design me some that will tell me what types of metal and ppm of oil draining while I watch it. Get me some glasses that when I look at a particular electrical circuit, that circuit lights up throughout the machine so it makes tracing easier. How about a pair that makes my wife look like a Victoria’s Secret model that loves to cook and clean....and cater to my every whim without any question.
One problem I'm seeing in this thread is not understanding what the OP means by "serviced"! To me and I would hazard to guess that word would mean to many the normal periodic maintenance of a machine. Say when is oil changed how often is it needing grease, how soon it will be needing new air filters and so on. Now when you are talking "smart glasses" are they going to be MSHA and OSHA approved safety glasses and will they be self cleaning? If not self cleaning will they be able to handle being wiped with a rag after they get oil on them and then a gust of wind blows abrasive stone dust that sticks to the oil? Are they going to still let you wedge your head in those tight places without ripping the wires off them? How about when some repair man decides to strike an arc with 7018 on the cutting edge while you come around the corner of the dozer? Are you going to offer free upgrades everytime some factory engineer decides to change the design of some part just to justify his paycheck? What about when the company you works for decides to merge with some other company that is still running their operation with 12V-71 Detroits and Hough frontend loaders, will you wizbang equipment be backwards compatible to handle those machines now that all the old time "real mechanics" have put out to pasture because someone in upper management was sold on this new high tech pair of glasses and decided they did not need anyone who understood how a machine worked and just needed someone who could swap parts on the instructions of some software program. And the programers of that software have never seen or touched a dirty machine in their lives! Sorry for rambling on but when someone can make a cellphone that makes sense and doesn't require the owner to take a course in how to understand what all those little pictures up in the corner of the screen mean I'll maybe believe they can at least stand a chance of designing a pair of smart glasses that can tell if the left signal is working! But I doubt they can tell you why it isn't!
What you are talking about is a head up display the sees two ways. If the mechanic can see things through it, then someone somewhere else can see what the mechanic is seeing, and doing. I've built plenty of data bases that can schedule when periodic maintenance is needed. I think you will be trying to sell something that you will have to invent a need for. Judging from your comments, your developers are just as clueless as you are on the real world of heavy construction equipment and maintenance.
Sounds like a sure fire idea to get bean counters to buy it at a premium cost and drop 25 percent of the repair techs cause a computer system made the pm faster on paper
But won't that set of Roger RamJet goggles make the oil drain faster and be able to see the exact spot on the frame where that wire has rubbed through shorting the back-up alarm? Not to mention the exhaust leak that is going to cause the suction hose for the transmission pump to fail two months from now. You don't think a good tech would be smart enough to see that while he is in there pulling the magnetic strainer for the torque converter do you?
Just what I was thinking AZ, has always taken the eyes and mind of a skilled tech to look at the machines, the conditions operated in, the conditions operators put on them and then time in field. No computer based program will 'See' the variables as a Human would, a human could enter the variables they see but then could miss pertinent points and slip a mickey into their own wallet.
Sometimes I will have to play detective to find out why the failure happened. I have to talk with the operator ( which is I don't know what happened it was working great and just quit). I have to study the broken whatever it may be, the working conditions and any other component that could effect the operation of the failed part. People think that I change parts. But it's so much more than that. You have to know how it works, what it does, and when it should do it. With that in hand you will need to apply logic and then you will have a solution. Its not simply changing the failed part. Sometimes you will have to dig a little further so that the failure won't happen again. I don't care what kind of software you come up with. You can't program logic, reasoning, skill, and common sense. Thus I know my job is secure. As long as there are parts changers and owners who think that software is the answer. People with skills like mine will get to name their price to apply that logic, reasoning, skill and common sense.
Cat’s already got you beat. They have augmented reality that shows parts breakdowns on machines. It’s still in the growing stage but I have played around with it some. A service manual whether on paper, computer, or augmented reality will not and can not replace the know how of a skilled mechanic no matter what the bean counters think. They need to stick with counting beans. There are endless tips, tricks, skills, and techniques for getting this job done and that can’t be farmed out. It takes decades of experience. You want to get real service improvements then run the engineers out of the manual stage and bring in seasoned mechanics and technical writers to write the service manuals. Also companies that will barely provide the bare minimum of tooling will not be buying these glasses you propose. Hell laptops just came more widespread.
Agree on that and the rest you wrote! And sometimes you just have to go with a gut feeling on somethings or just say to yourself "Do I really want to replace that part just because someone who has not touched it said that "had to be" the problem?" I know I have mentioned elsewhere on this forum about a 988H that was triggering a warning horn that said the trans filter was plugged. Short story was after doing all the simple checks at my end I got in touch with the dealers "expert" who said it was a bad ECM and I would need to replace it at few hundreds of dollars cost. I know it wasn't money out of my pocket but I still refused to accept that answer. A few months latter almost by dumb luck I found the problem to be a intermittent problem in a temp sensor and fixed the problem for something like $50.00 Now if some parts changer had been told by a computer program the ECM was at fault and he then replaced it and the problem was still there would the program again insist the problem was a bad ECM and get the parts changer to replace a second the third then fourth and so on till the factory ran out of ECMs? I can bet that anyone who has been hands-on with heavy equipment for any period of time could tell similar stories. One, where what might seem to be the obvious cause of a problem, just does not make sense on some level and the tech just knows from experience to keep looking to find an answer that may seem out in left field but in the end is the actual cause.
It was taught to me by my dad. That if you are going to tell a customer that he needs to spend thousands of dollars to make it run. Then you better be dang sure about it or you won't have any customers. I took that to heart and made it my mission to know what I am doing.
I can agree 1,000% on that point! About a year ago I stopped by the quarry where I retire from in 2015 and was talking with the guy who more or less took my place as the only mechanic at the plant. Without mentioning the company's name lets just say they are one of the three largest Cement and Aggregates companies in the world. Well this guy happened to mention that he had been trying for over a year to get his subscription to Cat ET updated so he could use the laptop that was a hand-me-down to me back in 2012! This local plant has at least three 980G(II), one 980K, one 988H, one 773G and one 769D all that have ECM's that could be connected to Cat ET for various operations from calibrating sensors to basic troubleshooting and I know they got a new Cat skidsteer so I would assume that would have need of Cat ET for some purpose. So if a major company like this does not feel the need to supply this type of tool to a tech do you think they are going to be buying some new untested pair of glasses to do what I did with a simple spreadsheet that I set up with nothing more than what I could learn on my own on the internet? I'm sure at some large scale operation, say like where Nige worked, where they have dozens upon dozens of machines all in one location some of these high tech tools could be justified. But in a situation like where I worked with at the most two dozen major pieces of equipment that becomes a problem. Just off the top of my head I can think of at least a dozen operations the company I worked for had in just New York. Many being an hour or two drive away so the logistics of trying to share even something as simple as a laptop with Cat ET on it is not a workable solution, if two plants need the tool the same day who's operation do you shut down?
Get back here Max Dee..................we aint done with you yet!!! LOL Seriously, everyone is trying to give you some valuable insight as to what we have to deal with.
Some old phart on here says a good mechanic isn't expensive, he's priceless!!!
I appreciate everyone's feedback. I really learned a lot on this forum, much more than simply browsing and reading websites. That's why I wanted to try posing this question on here, so I can talk with actual industry insiders (and people who work with this equipment everyday). You gave me a lot to think about and valuable insight, again I am grateful for your help and advice. I hope it'll be ok if I can post additional questions (if any come up), since you guys have been so helpful.
Ask all you want but don't get upset if we post negative things. Now if you are giving free samples.............. One point I might make would be to maybe look more in the direction of stationary engines, big gensets and that kind of stuff. I know not far from here there is a landfill that uses the methane from the decomp of the garbage to power several large gensets in one building. I'm sure there are many more like that. Just seems that a large concentration of engines in a cleaner location than a stone quarry might be a better application. That said those big operations like that already have the engine hooked to all kinds of computers already. I was told by a Cat tech that when he gets a call from that trash powered plant they tell him when he walks in the door which injector on which engine is in need of being replaced. They have pyrometers in every exhaust port and can spot exactly which cylinder is out of spec with out even looking at the engine.
About a month after I bought my new Bobcat E42 I got a call from Bobcat service monitoring something or another. I forgot what they were called. Anyway he said they are remotely monitoring my E42 and will phone me if a service alert calls in from my E42. Well, okay - thanks.
I used to work with a guy whose Dad started a company for road construction equipment; pavers n such. The product he developed would monitor parameters on the machinery and (I believe) allow technicians to remotely log into the system. I guess they could tell you which sensor / component wasn't working correctly. I think they also had the ability to bypass and manually override things during emergencies. It sounded like a legitimate setup.
Cell phone and microwave towers all have some kind of backup generator plant at the base of the tower. Those companies do no maintenance what so ever! I've done a few emergency calls and found dead batteries, engine oil filters with three or four year ago dates and antifreeze so old the smell ran me out of the building just cracking the radiator cap.
Had remote monitoring at the Nuke, engineers would call the Control Room from home to have one of us go and put eyes on critical machinery that was in service and showing bad signs.
PM.... That's panic maintenance right !? All joking aside, with the more often seen cost cutting measures, tho some sort of "program" to make things more efficient, it's a hard sell these days?
Many years ago I knew the heating system for the hot asphalt plant at the quarry was set up with an automatic phone system. If the storage tank temperature dropped below a preset level the phone system would start calling operator of the plant and the quarry supervisor. Last I new the voice recording that would play on that recording was the voice of the operator of the plant. What I would guess be a little strange is that operator retired and passed away from health problems. So now anyone getting that call would be getting a voice message from a dead guy!