A manual I read a number of years ago stressed the importance of idling an engine at 1000 RPM. They make the point that if pump volume is not adequate, some of the points in an engine might be oil starved. I've always worried that 1000 RPM was a bit much for a really cold engine. I've always started at no throttle, waited for oil pressure gauge to register running pressure, then gradually increase to 1000. I do use 10W-30 diesel oil in winter, and plug it in when I can. Sometimes I'm too far away from an outlet to plug in. In this forum I've heard experts suggest full throttle for cold starting. I have a Dresser TD7G tractor. It has a little bolted in mechanism preventing very low throttle. My friend grew up on a TD7E. He was startled to see that I didn't have the option of "NO THROTTLE STARTING" He doesn't pretend to be a mechanic, he may be the most expert operator I've ever known. He believes less than zero throttle starting is a big advantage. What throttle level does the least harm to an engine? What throttle level is an engine most likely to catch, and start? Starting fluid is a big controversy. I've always used as little as possible. I can't easily get to the intake manifold. I "hose down" the pre cleaner. By the time ether evaporates, and is drawn into the filter, and manifold, I believe I'm getting a very small dose. It usually "takes" after oil pressure is up. I get no hammer noise. Is this a good strategy? Willie Yes, I'm talking about old diesel engines.
Full rack until it's hitting on all 4/6/8/12/16 (delete as sppropriate) then throttle back to the lowest RPM that the engine's happy running at until it's warmed up a tad. You need fuel in the cylinders to make it go bang. With modern lubricants "oil starvation" should be a thing of the past. Regarding starting fluid it's a case of whatever works best for you, although by the sound of it your method of spraying it via the precleaner should be fairly friendly to the engine.
All diesel fuel systems require *extra* fuel for starting.. some are done automatically and some are manual & they require the throttle to be moved off of the low idle position.. The specs are written from the pump manufacturer, at wide open throttle, for checking starting fuel delivery of the inj. pump..
I've always started at dead idle and increased to about 1200-1300 rpm after oil light is out. It may be wrong but it feels right
All Deere engines for years started at full throttle until the engine caught and started to run up on the governor. Komatsu engines all started and ran at around 1,200 RPM until the computer sensed that the coolant temp was about 100 degrees F. I worked on Fairbanks Morse engines that were 10' tall and 26' long that started at full throttle and hit 120% load within 16 seconds. Even with what I've seen I've never felt comfortable with being next to one of those monsters when they were cold and the snap of the air start solenoids told me things were about to get exciting. Personally l like to get diesels to start slow and bring them up a bit as the cylinders start to catch on. It's pretty common to have to run up tired engines just to get the low compression holes to start popping. I've never intentionally put the throttle at full to start.
Ok, now, I know.............sort of. Willie
I spray the top before turning it over. I theorize that nearly no atomized liquid will find its way in. Paper filter, and pre cleaner will stop liquid droplets no matter how small. It'll get only evaporated ether. Willie
I always give a diesel full throttle to cold start. It needs all the fuel it can get. otherwise you'd be there all day playing with it. Get it going and move onto the next one. In extreme cases where nobody was smart enough to plug it in, and it's -30 or colder, and they absolutely have to have it running RIGHT NOW!, ...........I'll pull the air filter and spray directly down the air intake pipe. That gets results. And for the record, I've never broken an engine yet in 40+ years of cold starting. Smoked a few starters, but no engines hurting.
Only seen -30F once in my life. I stayed close to the wood stove that night. Willie
OFF; just don't do it on the little rice grinders. Had one come in that likely had that done and all three pistons had the ring grooves and rings shattered. I like to shoot it in as far away from the cylinders as possible to get a complete mix with the incoming air ******. Here in northeast Texas we thankfully almost never see any temps below 10F and if we do, we stay in the house for the day because that's just too dam cold . I did start my John Deere / Hitachi 790E over the weekend after getting down to 10 that morning and it went to nearly full throttle. I tried everything I could to slow it down but it wouldn't until it warmed up.
Ah, the ricer grinders......you walk past those things in the summer with an ice cream sandwich in your hand and they won't start. I play a different game with them. preheat and crank, repeat, repeat, repeat and keep repeating until it goes. That's the only way. No easy button, no fast way.
On the old cat that I have, full throttle until I get a little smoke from almost start, then cut back to about half, after gets running, throttle back to ldle.
even -40 isn't that bad, as long as there isn't a wind. Wind is the killer at those temperatures.
This is the first i ever heard of giving diesels full throttle reading these posts. I have 4 and they all start within a couple revolutions and I speed them up after a min. to 1,000 or so to warm them up. There may be one exception in the early 1960 I was clearing land with a 17A 1958 D7 I may had had to give it full throttle when starting can't remember but it makes sense until you got a couple smoke rings.
All the old Cat manuals call for the throttle to be closed while cranking with the pony and then jerked all the way open after the engine was warm enough to start. Upon running it is to be throttled back to complete warm up. Reason for the full jerk is because of the spring actuated governor control to the injection pumps. Aside from that my New Holland skid steer says to run at half throttle until operating temputature is reached. New cars/pickups seem to idle very fast in cold weather on warm up also.
Lots of manuals call for full throttle when starting cold. I had Hino truck that you had to keep at full throttle until the engine got up to 1200 RPM or it would just die. Once it hit 1200 RPM you could let your foot of the throttle and it would idle but I always turned the idle to about 900-1000 if I wanted heat in the cab. The engine was rebuilt and didn't use any oil but when cold had so much smoke you couldn't see 5 feet. Once warm no smoke at all.
My 4 cyl perkins also gets full throttle, she's a heavy drinker.:tong
The thought of all these engines being started in super cold weather at full throttle is giving me anxiety. Ive had oil filter seals blow out doing that. I have a perkins engine in my shop right now that blew a filter seal on a cold start at full throttle, operator didn't even know it til his engine seized up a few minutes later. You should see the crankshaft I pulled out of it!
I try to plug in or warm up any equipment that needs to be started in the ice cold at low idle and then slowly bring up the idle,never had any issues with starting this way and when shutting down ill bring the idle down low before turning the key off...cold thick oil is no good for bearings in any engine with any fuel..
nobody is recommending you hold an ice cold engine right to the pin after it picks up RPM. When you're cranking, wide open. When the engine is firing but struggling to maintain 500 RPM? giver lots. As it picks up RPM you back off the throttle to maintain a comfortable 1000 to 1500 RPM. Good oil (synthetic) would have prevented your oil filter failure. An operator who's watching his/her gauges and warning lights would have prevented the seizure. Most engines will shut down when they lose oil pressure or overheat.
That must have been what I did old iron never seen any manuals but the boss must have taught me how to start it.
As "OFF" says above, no one is suggesting you rev the cold engine to high idle as soon as it starts, instead in the 1,000 rpm range which would be 1/2 to 1/3 of the no load high idle speed! Sometimes when starting machines with hydraulic pumps that are run directly off the engine you have to keep the RPMs down a bit to prevent the pumps from cavitating while trying to pump the cold oil, it's something of a play it by ear thing. Then slowly work the controls trying to avoid running anything up against the stops or bottoming out cylinders for a few minutes, again it all depends on the temperature. The colder it is the longer the warm up time.
*** is the purpose of the oil filter bypass valve then if not to prevent exactly that circumstance..? Like KSH I'm of the "give it loads of fuel until it actually strikes up" persuasion. Then you set the throttle at whatever the engine is comfortable at to prevent it dying and depending on what parasitic loads, hydraulic pumps for example, are attached to it.
Its obvious that some people have never tried to start a carburated car before.. Same principal.. Give it some pedal until it started and then feather it until it ran smooth at idle.. SIMPLE AS THAT.. No further discussion needed.. It doesn't matter what you think, what you heard or what you always do.. The injection pump on tier 3 engines or less, require MORE fuel at starting than produced at low idle. MASH THE GAS.. Lol
all my diesels get full throttle once they start I let off so they idle
Exactly, you don't leave it at full throttle, once it start's, you slowly bring er down till she say's,,ahhh, right there.:tong
I cant explain exactly what they did. I just had to repair the damage. For all I know, they may have started it at full and didn't let it warm up at all. I never get the complete story from an operator that damages a machine like that.:beatsme
The old Cats were warm when you pulled the throttle to start them. The pony motor took care of that. The stretch D8s used at the south pole had a 10 gallon pony motor gas tank on them. Was not unusual to run the pony for 45 minutes to warm the main before starting.
Pony running off the same coolant as the diesel and the exhaust pipe running through the intake side of the head sure made for a good design that's for sure.
The more I hear of them, the more I want one. Willie
I have a 580c that does not like to start in cold weather even if plugged in. I replaced battery but I think it should roll over faster maybe the starter. It starts fine in the summer. My question is how far should I pull the hand throttle? If i pull the hand throttle lever the pedal throttle bottoms out on the floor but I can get more rpms out of it if I pull hand throttle farther. Should the hand and foot throttle bottom out at the same time. I have never bottomed out the hand throttle it feels like it is bending something or going to break something if I pull it much farther past where pedal bottoms out.
my 580c starts fine flooring the pedal. I have a new battery and starter. Once it hits the teens I give it a little shot of either and it will fire right up.
Does your hand throttle have a stopper or go a lot father than the pedal? I am wondering if I need to adjust the linkages.
I never really payed attention to that to be honest
Started the 580K this morning. Weather was just cold enough for a sluggish start. No ether, it didn't start immediately. A bit of a puff at first. I tried full throttle, no improvement. Ultimately, it didn't start until no throttle. A moment of irregular, then smoothed out. I waited for oil to circulate, then 1000 RPM. I have other tractors with glow plugs. That seems more gentle on the engine. Willie
Andy, If you look on the throttle portion of your injection pump, you'll see it has a spring on it.. That spring should break over a little bit, when full force is applied.. wide open throttle. If it does it with the foot throttle & not w/ the hand throttle, adjustments are necessary. You'll probably need a book for the proper sequence.. I've seen folks try to get full throttle, only to find out after the adjustment, it wont go to low idle.. There is definatly a sequence to follow.. good luck.
Thanks for the info pumpguy I will look at adjusting it in the spring.
I usually start my dynahoe with a 353 detroit in it by cranking with the injectors OFF for a few seconds then slowly disengage the kill lever(while cranking) as this is the procedure recommended in the manual for cold starts down to around 10 degrees F(I think) any colder then I go to ether, the theory is this allows the cylinders to warm up a bit before injecting cold diesel into them. I have tried differing methods throughout the years and it does start easier by this method... at least with the 2detroits.
Tiny shot of either wont hurt it. Its when you pour the whole can in on one start up. I have a can for 2 years in my backhoe and I use it a lot in the winter months
Idle, 1/2 throttle,, full throttle didn't make any difference today.... it was - 35 below!
My Deere 690E has a computer controlled throttle, it idles high for 5 to 10 minutes when its cold out, it drops back down to a low idle after it warms up.
Are old diesel engines like this designed to run at wide open throttle and governed somehow or just full throttle when needed. A friend of mine told me I should run the machine wide open because it was easier on the hydraulic pump. Another friend told me not to rev it up to much until I get all my old hoses replaced. My tach doesn't work and my linkage just doesn't seem right, I dont want to red line it. This is my first backhoe, I can be a little jerky on the controls and the pins are sloppy which makes it even worse, so I just throttle up when I am trying to remove a stubborn rock or something. I have only blew two hoses in 2 yrs and they weren't the worst looking ones.
Andy no need to run it wide open 1,500 to 2,000 will do most tasks for you. At least it's worked for me for over 30 years. I now some times take a look at the tack and wonder why I'm running at such a high rpm for me now normal is 1,800 to 2,200 depending on what I'm doing. If trying to clean off a lawn and not disturb the grass 1,200 would be my preference.
Mine with an engine Case describes as their own manufacture, but obviously, a Cummins, 3900 CC. is happiest above 1000, but not loading down to anything below 1000. For loader work, or driving down the highway it needs 2000. Willie
I have a 580SK and she starts down to about 20f with about 10 seconds of cranking and no throttle no heat no ether..... below 20 I use a coolant heater.
Depends who owns it as to throttle position and warm up time. Rental-Throttle wfo, warm up time is turning the key Mine- block heater, pan heater, low idle for a couple minutes then high idle. Start working easy and increase load and throttle slowly as warm up progresses. If its gotta go and playing hard to get hold er wfo and ease back as it starts hitting. Starting fluid never unless the battery is givin up and its gotta go.