Anyone had experience with HX dozers? See them advertised in trade publications mainly in Alberta.Look similar to a Cat with high-drive and all. Dominion
Never heard of them. Got any photos?
http://www.terraquip.com/hx-intro.html
Basically an admission they are a knock off, by appearance of Caterpillar. It doesn't seem as if that should be legal, at least for sale in the US.
From what I have read about them, they are old wore out Cat machines, sent to China for scrap, (to help pay of the debt) repowered with a Cummins, and offerd for sale in China, Vietnam, India, and other countries as the such.
If they went through China they got to be junk. If they are indeed Cat machines that have been touched up I hope Cat can go after them.
Theyre brand new cummins powered knockoffs. Junk just the same, seen one in person.
Canadian Company seems to be offereing them too if I am not mistaken. I would be very surprised if it would not be possible to ship them to the states. Our local industry gets no help from the bloody government when it comes to junk imports from China cause the politicians are so scared they will pi-- off the Chinese and they won't buy from us or loan Washington gobs of money.
it's all free trade. not quality control thank Bill Clinton for that
Why anybody would waste their hard earned coin on junk like this is beyond me.
I see people do it every day. " I can fix this cheap, I can buy that cheap." It is amazing how the long bitter taste of the junk long out lasts the short sweet taste of the low low price.
I bet they can sell them if they are cheaper, and that would not be hard to accomplish considering what chinese labor costs. Hyd. driven fan is not a bad idea, m11 motor in the big 7 size would be good too. Interesting that if it isn't cat everyone cries "junk". Bottom bid is almost always going to get the work, no matter what the brand of iron doing the work.
Not true Olddirt..Name brand has nothing to do with it. Think Ford Falcon, V8 Cats, New Coke, etc., junk is junk Buy in haste, repent at leisure. Lowest bids seldom get the job if they don't meet the tender qualifications.
Face it Oldirt. Chinese equates to "junk." Chinese junk boats, chinese animal food that killed many a loved pet here and made countless others sick, tooth paste, steel, cast iron pipe fittings, I can go on and on. First thing I look for when I pick up something to buy it is where it came from. If I can get US manufactured, that is what I buy. Tripper 174 you forgot chevy vega in your list which made Ford Falcon look like the best there ever was. One more thing Oldirt. Cheap equates to junk. Inexpensive equates to good value for the price. Lets face it. The best coming from China today is total trash compared to the worst coming from Japan after WWII.
Righto Greg...forgot lite beer too, any brand!
Oh ya Tripper, lite beer or light beer or any of what we call the "training beers" here. Forgot all about that. Saw my Cat dealer salesman yesterday. Told him about this knock of junk. He is going to look into it too.
Not true? So if it costs less than cat it is "cheap"? You guys need to open your minds a little. I haven't seen a first hand unbiased operator's report on one of those pieces of "junk" so how can you make a determination of quality? From what I have seen of the latest cat stuff quality is becoming a rare commodity. I would bet that those things run way better than "junk". I wish cat would build stuff like it did in the 1980. Everything was built to be rebuilt with a parts/service backup that would choke out any competition. It looks like everything they make now is built to be sold to rental co's and traded off in a thousand hours, who cares about rebuild. My opinion, worth not much I know, but it is mine. Change my mind with facts please. I do listen. I do enjoy this website. Thanks to those who made it for us.
I will agree with you on the previous quality of Cat compared to now. However, I have seen pipe fittings from China that are nothing but "trash, steel that is nothing but "trash" hand tools that are nothing but "trash" and so the list of stuff from china goes on and on and on and on. The quality of manufactured things from China is nothing but "trash." I have experienced it first hand time and time again. If they can't make the simple little things like pipe fittings what makes you think they can make the big things or parts to rebuild the big things?
We are not talking plumbing supplies here..My road toolboxes are full of china knockoff wrenches. They seem to work for me and if they are stolen, I can buy them again at the same pawn shop for less than what insurance costs. You would be wrong in assuming that chinese engineers "cannot" build things well. I am not saying everything they export to us is good quality either. Wish our govt. hadn't made it impossible to manufacture good quality anything here but that is our reality.
No, we are not talking plumbing supplies. The point I am trying to make is if the chinese can't produce steel of consistent quality, if they can't make plumbing fittings that don't leak and the threads don't match what we have on a consistent basis than why should you believe they can do the big things. I spent 20 years building steel mill melt shops all over the world. I have seen first hand in china the way they do things and their lack of quality control and i can't say that the so call "chinese engineers" as you call them with my experience have been capable of building things with high quality. The government has not made it impossible to manufacture good quality here. That could still be possible. What the government has done at all levels, federal, state, and local is make it impossible to manufacture anything here because of their over bearing regulations, sticking their nose into design, requiring things so we can't hurt ourselves because they have succeeded in dumbing the population of this country down to nothing. If you were a major manufacturer why would you even want to stay here any more? My scrap pile by my shop is full of chinese s--- just waiting to go to the scrap yard when the price gets back up so I can justify hauling it away. It includes all different of chinese "knock off crap" that gets shipped over here and sold. The biggest problem I have is being able to find the good stuff anymore. Say what you want "oldirt" I have been there and seen it with my own eyes. Their steel mills and foundries are crap. The stuff they turn out is crap. The old saying of crap in means crap out is true. Use s--- steel and s--- castings when manufacturing something and you will have sh-- end products.
That was very well said i agree 100%
I have stayed out of it and bit my tongue long enough, first of all let me tell you in no way would i buy one, partly because of being china built and partly because its not CaT I dont know how you could say everything that is produced there is junk. it would be like saying all American's are fat. yeah most people are but there are skinny people too!. no where in this thread is ANY first hand (or hear say for that matter) of anyone having anything to do or even seeing one of these machine's!!!!!! and why do you think companies move overseas? you cant really think that it is solely due to risk of lawsuit's and stupid safety laws. (in short that is what you said). Don't you think it has a little to do with the high wages here in the state's and more specifically the union regulations and wages and other plain ole B/S (BTW: the union is not the government ) In short, and I know I will get flamed for this. But if you wanna point fingers at anyone for U.S. not being able to produce competitively priced machine's blame the Union. and the auto mfg's make that argument pretty clear. I know there are other machines that are produced in countries other than U.S. and they are considered Quality......So I leave you with these question's 1. Does the origin ALWAYS signify quality? 2. Does the price ALWAYS signify quality? 3. If you have NO experience, nor have heard of any experience with something should you be able to stereotype the entire entity as "junk"? And again. I am not promoting this HX dozer, nor can I dis-credit the tractor.....after all I have NO good or bad experience with it Pj
I will say they are junk I do have first hand knowlage of them i have sat in the seat operated and had more then one demo of them. some of the problems we had on a 7 size machine the throttle stuck wide open at 15 hours on the meter. same operator hit a rock in second gear and a blade lift cyl rod broke and when i called and had them take it of my site thats cause there was an electical fire and this was on a 40 hour demo.
I didn't get into the union thing because I had gone on long enough. That contributes to it too. As far as law suits go, if you are an American company you will get sued here no matter where you make it at. As far as union thing goes, just look at GM, Ford and Chrysler. They made their own mess with the UAW. Cat took the UAW on several years ago and won some things. I don't know where that stands today. As far as nonunion goes, look at Nucor Steel Co. in this country. Nonunion, highly paid labor force with better fringes than the most unions get. They can do it because their work force is highly highly productive and quality quality orientated. Their wage package is tied to productivity and quality. It can be done here if the company management will get their heads out of their collectives a--es. As far as my statement about chinese stuff being junk, I have been there, I have seen it. When it is state owned nobody gives a rat's a-- about anything except the politics and staying in the good graces of the state. Oh ya, I have seen some real great stuff come out of Russia too. And oh ya, most Americans are FAT!! Just walk down the street and look.
now we all know "first hand knowledge" of someone who has run one and it is pronounced "junk". No more discussion, move along now.
Guys, everyone is entitled to their opinions here, hopefully they are supported by facts. You are free to discuss the pros and cons of this machine, but singling each other out to badmouth their opinion will not be tolerated. I see this heading in that direction. If you can't discuss this as gentlemen, then I'd suggest you refrain from posting.
Oldirt:, This is a Discussion Forum and the topic happens to be HX dozers and we are staying extremely ON TOPIC......dont like it, maybe you need to "move along" to another thread (no dis-respect, but it's not your call!) On the same Token, I have had 3 Caterpillar machines bought back because they were Lemon's, BUT (theres always a butt) that dosent make Caterpillar junk in my mind. Pj
Okay here goes, Ive seen the insides of the trans on one of those HX dozers with 600 hours on it and there was nothing left salvagable even the housing needed work. Parts were months away so it ended up parked out back of the shop. Welds and castings were horrendous, as was the quality of machine work on the gears. I wouldnt wish one on my worst enemy .
It means pretty close to everything out of russia is junk too. Again, the state owns it so nobody cares as long as they stay in good standing with the state. I spent time there too. Their industrial mite is a joke. I have seen machine shop work from there that we could do as good here with a chain saw free hand. Oh ya, russians and chinese are both copy cats too. Remember the 135 or so B-29 bombers the russians built for themselves by using three (3) that landed there during WWII? They kept them, took them apart and copied them piece for piece. I saw a chinese knockoff of a small ATV just yesterday. Guy that has it says it is a piece of xxxx. chinese copy of a honda engine and everything else on it copied.
Now with 05Cummins and ben46a's responses we are getting somewhere now. I wonder if they are like the chinese honda's and all the parts will interchange with the Cat's?.....If so a guy has to be carefull and watch out for chinese replaced parts when buying a used machine from a shady dealer (but there aint non of those are there ) lol Pj
From my personnel experience with chinese parts, and I have experience with them both here and in china many times they won't even interchange with themselves!!!
There is no way I would buy Chinese heavy equipment for more than 10% above scap value.
Pj.
mr. powerjoke Sarcasm was apparently not recognized by some. I don't play the "I saw it and it was worthless" game. I was just pointing out the obvious truths which few seemed to care about. Enjoy.
sar·casm (särkzm) n. 1. A cutting, often ironic remark intended to wound. 2. A form of wit that is marked by the use of sarcastic language and is intended to make its victim the butt of contempt or ridicule Fellows...I think we need to let this dead horse die and move on. Else, sadly, we'll find this thread closed by the moderators.
people have opinions powerjoke yours is dont judge a book by its cover oldirts is from life lessons and past dealings with china made stuff so why dont you guys agree to diagree
I am still hoping to hear some more first hand experiences. I have heard some tales secondhand, and they were none too flattering. Along the same lines as that shared by Ben46A, that components were completely beyond repair in very short hours. Maybe someone will share some more first hand experiences, good or bad. As for me, having seen the quality of other items from the chinese factories, I will stick with what is tried and true, plus the fact that I would rather support US companies than Chinese ones.
your right, you were fair and I was just trying to support you That quote right there aught to be reason enough NOT to buy one and is probably the best sentance in this whole mess. sorry if I offended anyone but it seems that I have due to some Pm's I recieved Pj
if you look back my dealings with these dozers are first hand there is even the same two sitting 15 min away from me in acheson Alberta they cant sell them so they sit beside the hwy it was so bad out here 2 years ago that people would winch a d8k out of a swamp get it running cause we couldnt get our hands on enough equipment yet these two lemons sat there the whole time
lol, can yo uswing by and snap a couple of pic's i am sure we would all get a good laugh. also I heard one of the guys on another board talking about buying a wheel loader for the snow crew......wonder what he decied. Pj
haha where do u think cat is manufactured ? .... its not american, Im from canada and i have seen the dozers advertised for dirt cheap. they run n 14 cummins,other than that they are the same as a cat exact same place cat buys their components. I think you get what u pay for they r half the price of a 7 but last half as long .
Cat is as American as it gets. True, they have manufacturing plants worldwide, but they have more manufacturing in the US than anywhere else. I know where the majority of the machines are made, as I have walked on the floors of the major factories. The heart of the company is in the TTT plant in Peoria Illinois. Engines also come from Peoria, and the loaders and HEX come from Aurora with trucks, graders and scrapers in Decatur. This represents the heart and soul of the company, and is made with pride to the highest standards right here in the US. While every company will have problems now and then, it is how they are handled that sets Cat apart from the rest. You can't beat the support that Cat gives you after the sale, at least that is how it is with the dealers in my area. Same place Cat buys their components??? Cat makes their own engines, transmissions, final drives, and just about every other component in a machine. Who else can say that? I do agree that you get what you pay for, and I will pay for a Cat before any Chinese made product.
Does cat not have there own foundry in the states to cast there own parts also watch china brand machines they clam new but i have found more then once engines are remand like chanlign loaders also owned own big mistake new loader but a used remand engine. cummins remand at there reman factory in britain talk about a run around for warranty.
I saw one on a trailer a man brought down here. He bought some land and and was gonna make hunting club and sell Chinese equipment. He had an HX, and a sany excavator, and some loader the translation on the name and the manuals was Golden Monkey This was a little lights job that could have een done in 2 months with my 1975 3550 Ford Back hoe. He excavator last the longest because it was mostly name brand components. the dozers trans looked like it was made to grind metal. It lost 2nd gear first week and then dropped 3rd revers and then was carted off. The load was a night mare had a Cummins thats all I can say. The loader arms cracked bucket want square with the arms or the any thing else. He sold his land and moved elsewhere. this man was more of a sales man. he sold all kinds of novelty things hydrogen generators and other of fthe wall things. My favorite of this mans was a Mini excavator that he bought a container of them. After a week sitting outside the rods all rusted. and the paint fell of and the tracks went to nothing. Very dinky machines it had a knock off Duetz in it. I have a friend here that has a tractor dealer ship. he was selling rebuilt Yanmars, And new Branson tractors. Later he couldnt get Yanmar so to supplemnet the Branson sales he bought a load of Jinma tractors and implements. Even had one of those little Nortrac type bulldozers from Jinma. He told me those tractors were a big mistake that he stood behind his warranty but they were about to bankrupt him. The dozer is like a bad penny it keeps on comming back.
And so it goes and goes and goes and goes. I too have walked the floors of the Cat plants in Peoria, Aurora, Decatur and have done work in the Cat foundry in Mapleton. Cat makes pretty much all of it. The things they don't make like bearings are from Timken for the most part to Cat's specification. They also purchase grey iron, ductile iron, steel castings and steel plate which they choose not to make themselves from commercial foundries according to Cat specifications and process control. Even Cat can't justify owning a steel mill for their own needs. I too have walked the floors of these foundries and steel mills doing service work that supply Cat and know what they are capabible of producing. You don't see chinese manufactured high integrity steel castings, grey iron high pressure hydraulic valve bodies, high quality alloy steel plate in this country cause it DOES NOT EXIST!!!! I have also walked the floors of the chinese places and have seen first hand what they can and can't do. Can do is almost nothing, can't do is almost everything. You want first hand experience? Well mine is first hand. I will stick with Cat and the things which Cat makes themselves.
One of these things was offered by a dealer in Maryland on machinerytrader.com. I emailed them with the questions about what it was. He claimed it was made in china according to Cat specs. Ya, sure. If you swallow that one I got lots of deals for you. Machine was supposed to be size of a D7 and was Cummins powered. Other than that they did not now squat about the thing. Also a dealer in Canada and I think mentioned Mississippi also. Price was $67,000.00, From the conversation it sounds like a Cat "knock off." This junk should be stopped at the port before it enters the country
I remember when Komatsu first came out in NZ , every body said Jap Junk dont touch it but looky now Komatsu is probably No 2 in the world for construction & mining machinery.
Maybe Komatsu is up there now, but how long did it take them? Let face an other thing about Japan. After the war when we rebuilt them, yes US, everything that came from Japan was pretty much junk. But at its worst the Japanese junk was still better than the best garbage the chinese are turning out now. The Japanese also progressed much faster in improving their products and quality than the chinese are doing or are capable of. Twenty years after they came on to the scene the chinese stuff is still nothing but crap.
I talked to these guys a little at Conexpo 2008, they said these machines were originally made through a licensing agreement with Caterpillar. Apparently when the period of the agreement ended they started using the Cummins driveline. There is a knockoff brand of Komatsu done the same way, usually models the parent company doesn't sell anymore. They claimed these dozers had either a 70 or 80% component interchangeability with Cat. Haven't seen any here in the midwest, so I can't offer any performance comments. I did run a Hyundai D4C sized dozer a while back, and while it was usable, I could see why a similar sized Cat cost twice as much. I think this thing still had dry brakes and a shift cable about as precise as a baseball bat in a rain barrel! Buyer beware. Alan
Right on alal627b!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Like I have said on here for so long. chinese stuff is basicly junk all the way through. These things might make good boat anchors as long you can get them to sink and hope they don't rust to fast when they get wet. I have not heard much good about the Yyundai stuff either.
Maybe you'll see them parked in the lot outside of Harbor Freight before long....!
I hate to say it guy's and I am a die hard true blue amarican man that has had my hands on a lot of heavy equipment in the past and have a lot of mechanic friend's that work on every brand of equipment out there but just because something is built in amarica dose not mean it is 100% American. Even I have to admit that some of my favorit equipment (John Deere, Caterpillar, ect.) has, in one way shap or form something from overseas in it to make it opperate. Not to defend anyone or any country but that is what makes this old world turn round if we like it or not. O and just to stay on topic a little that HX looks like it rolled of cats assembily line, just one gose one way and a cat engen is put in and cat decals and the other gose a different way and a cummins is put in with HX decals. kinda like stanly and proto come out of the same factery. :usa Just my $0.02 worth