Our company helps maintain water depots in the winter time. The depots have 20 x 20 concrete pads that get covered in ice. Sometimes there will be 18" of solid ice on the pads. We have been hauling backhoes and excavators to the site and using the buckets to chips the ice away. This requires some sort of a semi to accomplish. Anyone have any suggestions for smaller equipment that might work? some sort of skid steer or mini excavator attachment? thanks.
We use salt on all of our parking lots. Works real well.
the salt has a little trouble penetrating 18" of ice.
skidsteer and a roadsaw, cut 2' blocks and use a mini excavator to handle the blocks. Or even a large demo saw. Put a stump grinder on a mini hoe or skidsteer. borow a trackdrier from your local nascar track how many depots do you have to maintain?
Jet Heat The answer is a heater to melt it then some salt to get the melted water to a catch basin. http://jetheat.com/Ground thawing.htm It will fit in a pickup or it has a trailer. We rent these from our local volvo rents.
Asphalt milling machine on a skid-steer http://www.bobcat.com/attachments/planer_standard might work. Other than that all I can think of is whole lot of calcium chloride. lol
would the water have a place to drain away to? how far apart are they? what about a thawzall machine? or several? (they go thru a lot of fuel thou). a mini with a hammer? woul;d have to be careful though.
mini ex with hammer was my first thought.....what putting frost pick on the mini ex?
The jet heat or thaw machines that circulate hot water through hoses that zig zag under a heat blanket covering the area to be thawed. They will thaw 18'' of ice by the next morning. Maintain it regularly and it can be done much quicker. Fuel cost will still be less than equipment costs and moves. Put the heat to it and leave. Then again, if your in a thief infested area, it may not be such a good idea. We used heat blankets or thick visqueen with space heaters or toga heaters to thaw hundreds of frozen super sacks (3000# sacks) of sand on remote winter concrete jobs. Did it all winter and worked great. Burn about 25-35 gallons a day in fuel ea. One heater for a 20x20 would be suffucient.
Electric frost blankets.
Post pictures, You have us all curious. I have never seen 18" of ice build up
A rugged ripper tooth on a mini excavator might be able to chip away at the ice - www.mcfaulkner.com , check out the rock rippers
This is really frustrating to not get email notifications! those are good ideas. i have never used most of these items so i will have to research them. there are about six to maintain. there is a lot of traffic at these depots so i think a heater would be too slow. also it gets pretty cold here. tonight it is supposed to be -25 F so i think at times it would be hard to keep enough heat on the pad. this might work really nice. i bet the cost is sky high to buy. does it require a high flow skid steer? i am afraid the hammer might get to aggressive and start getting into the concrete. do you have an example of what a mini ex frost pick would look like? the truck drivers often spill a hundred gallons of water on the pads at a time so that is why the ice gets so built up. i will try to get pictures next time i can.
we do have one depot setup for heated pads but we haven't had time to get the boilers running yet. just too much work and not enough time!
sounds like you could use some help then. no pic's? sounds like shoulda built them with heat tape.
yes we do need some help. looking for qualified people to work for us. you find a place to stay and then we can talk employment. i agree that they they all should have been built with heat of some sort.
To bad they didn't put tubes for hot water heat in the concrete. Would of been real easy to thaw that way.
Go buy a 6' iceblade. The kind that are used on graders and plow truck underbelly plows. Put two or three bolts through two or three bolt holes and then grab it with your 4-in-1 bucket just below the bolts. You've just turned your skid steer into a hell of a ice ripping machine. Make a few passes with the blade and then clean up with the bucket.
Zamboni and two nets!!!
whats is this?
i am with a mini ex or skiddie with a hammer. break it up but not down to the concrete. then put a head shaker on the mini and ou'la . simple.
What is on the pad to hit? anything? pipe's, etc.?
mini ex or skiddie with breaker. get it close then run a head shaker.
Post some pictures if you can so people can see what your talking about. I've seen an attachment that fits on the front of a grader that's like a scarifier but has spiked wheels for breaking up pack ice. The city here uses them on some of they're rural roads, I can't find any pictures of the attachment but without an image it's hard to for people to understand the problem.
What is the heaviest loader/grader you have? Or just a skidsteer? Sounds like U may need the right tool for the job. Still trying to get a visual of what these "Depots" look like. Pi$$ing in the wind trying to guess.. Sorry man.. On the Slope where we fill water trucks regularly in sub zero temps, It builds up thick frequently, but they just use a grader or loader with a ice grouser blade or attachment on the front and work the area. Chews it down quickly. Doubt a skidsteer would be heavy enough, but it weighted to the max with a narrow blade maybe.. Also if you can, get some Calcium Chloride. It will melt ice down to -25 below f. Not great for concrete in heavy applications, but would work.
I suppose you'd have to ask yourself if you're happy with the performance of the backhoes. Are they adequate or are they overkill? If they're overkill, you could try a 3-5 ton hoe with a ripper. Be careful who you send out there, though. You don't want to get a concrete repair bill in the spring. How much traffic do these pads see? What about some preventive maintainence like putting down foundation blankets to draw the frost up? Can you divert the water somewhere before it turns into 18" of ice?
Why let the ice build up to 18"? Some salt goes a long ways.
I wonder if a power rake on a bobcat and a sweeper would work.
most have a single drain in the middle of the pad. it is usually about 12" in diameter. this isn't pack ice. its ice. the backhoes work pretty good. there are two pads per depot each about 20' x 24'. with the right operator he can load a backhoe, travel thirty miles to the site, and complete the removal in a day. he chips with the hoe and pushes off with the bucket. i would like to find a way to do this without having to start a semi truck. the backhoes work good but i would like something i can pull behind a pickup. it is so hard to get these trucks going and keep them going in our cold temps. each depot loads out of two sides. at the busier depots there is almost always a line up of five or more trucks. so they are pretty much in use 24-7. we provide salt sand at each depot. we have about twenty yards delivered at a time. i am not absolutely sure but i think it is about ten percent salt. the truck drivers have a tendency to either not pay attention and over fill their trucks or not use their trailer vacs to drain their hoses. we spend a good part of December and most of January and February with temps below ten degrees Fahrenheit. so when they spill the water on the pads it doesn't have much time to do anything but freeze. i will try to get pictures but the crews we have been sending this week don't have smart phones that can take pictures worth posting.
That was what I was thinking.
120 sized excavator, quick coupler....frost hook, and 3' gummer bucket. done deal....not that hard of a deal? on edit, just where you at? my son's inlaws are in the kenmare area, also have land near williston....you working for local drillers? or the wildcats?
We are based in Williston and work for ourselves. We work in underground construction, horizontal boring, water well drilling, agricultural irrigation, and have master electricians. We have stores in Williston, Sidney, and Miles City.
If the concrete is thick enough and been in place long enough i'd just choose the right time of day............. you should be able to slide a ''knife'' under the sheet and break it up in chunks........ chemicals and heat work but i can't believe they are efficient as sliding a piece of steel along the cement.................. providing there is just a little water interface there.
Well check out this link http://www.sah-ko.fi/raikomachines/polannemurtajat-eng.html I have been talking to the company and trying to get one for us at the mine watch the videos.
interesting though. how would we get the "water interface" though?
Hmm, so break the slab loose from the concrete, calcium or mag chloride is a lot heavier than water or ice. Can you drill down close to the slab with say a 1 inch auger every foot or two and pour a couple cupfuls of mag or calcium down each hole. That should make a little heat and start to creep between the ice and the slab, loosening the bond between the two. Both of those chemicals work down below zero but calcium is more in your neighborhood of -25F Purely from a desk perspective, perhaps you could just bore holes on the uphill side and keep filling them with calcium and let it creep toward the drain, a couple random holes might show how far the creep has progressed. Might have to put some water in the holes to get the fluid volume up a bit.
i like the idea.
just curious, has anybody ever tried a backhoe, excavator mounted vibratory plate on ice? i'm wondering if the vibration wouldn't break the bond of the ice to the concrete, shattering it...allowing it to be pushed off with a skid steer or other loader?
It has been really nice here the last week. We have been in the 20's and even a little in the 30's. We cleaned this one off a week ago and this is the build up we have seen in the nice weather. I think it gets a lot thicker than this.
i don't know why i can't get these to show up as regular pictures. sorry about that.
Here got them up for you.
Not to be an alarmist but you got some guy there that moves slower than ice. seems like a candidate for outward promotion.
seriously, i'd try a vibe plate on that.
Just thinking out loud, this is a more radical, longer term idea on how to solve your problem. Pour new pads with heating pipes installed, including insulation below the pad. I'm not sure how deep your frost gets there, but if not too deep you could dig down and make a grid of water pipes, just like a ground source heat pump. Put a bio-friendly antifreeze solution into the system and just pump water. The ground water should be ~55 deg F. That might be warm enough to keep an unfrozen layer below any ice that might accumulate. Then you could use a SSL or BHL to push off any accumulation. Also, you could add a gas fired heater in-line to boost the temperature during super cold periods or if you wanted to just do a burn off. They key idea is just below the ground you have an huge supply of heat - although it is at a low temperature. But, it is above freezing and that might be all you need. The water pump just moves the energy, and doesn't create it. Another variation is to use an actual ground source heat pump. That would boost the temperature up high enough to insure a melt off. ***Disclaimer - Never seen this done, never designed such a system, just brainstorming...
there are plans to tear out pads and install boiler systems this summer.
We've done heated asphalt with these before you can set a timer to go off every 30 minutes or so if you wanted. http://www.warmzone.com/SnowMelting/options.asp
That might be a good solution. How about using the driveway heater and just pave over it?
Rather than rolling out any heavy equipment, I'd be more inclined to send out a laborer with one of these http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rBJHunDUNK0&feature=related a wrecking bar and a plow (to push off the ice chips and shavings when it's done). The guy in the video isn't doing it right, but you get the idea.
I like this idea if you are being reactive in your ice mitigation techniques. If you don't use a heat pump you will lose effectiveness at some point in the season. When you are circulating the water you will transfer heat to the surface but you will also transfer cold into the ground. The cold transfer will then reduce the temp of the earth surrounding the tubes. You can see where this is going. All geothermal storage/exchange systems I have been involved in have to have some sort of heat pump, that will multiply the heating or cooling effect, to work efficiently. Your theory will work. It just has to be a little bit more extensive than what you proposed. I have used these before. They are not very effective over large areas. They work great if you segments are narrow. Like if you are installing lane markers and such. I am wondering why you don't negotiate a maintenance contract with the owner. I would think it would be cheaper for you to go out everyday and apply mag or calcium chloride. This could be done by one person in a pick up. The pads could also be pre-treated (chemically) so that it would take longer for the ice to build up. If this is not cost effective than I too am on the mini/hammer band wagon. Instead of a pointed gad I would try a broad gad. Like an asphalt gad or clay spade for a jack hammer. If it was not pointed you would have more room for error should the gad reach the concrete. I was just using a rented hammer, on my 12,000# mini, to break through frosted dirt. I was thinking how much more effective a broad gad would have been over the point.
tell me about pre-treating.
pre-treating is putting ice melter down before the ice has formed, it should keep a wet serfice on the ground so there will be no bounding. 1. try several layers of visqueen. 10 or 20 and remove ice as needed because it should not bond to the ground. 2. (I do not like using chemicals unless needed) you could lay a 1" plastic pipe with holes drilled ever 3" or 4 " along the base of the wall. have the holes pointed down and 1 end turned up so you could pour ice melter like used to deice airplanes. that would eventually run under the ice braking the bound. I am working on a plate with points about the size and shape of upside down candy kissis spread out 1" apart. it bolts to the bottom of a jumping jack. If it works like I want you would not need any heavy equipment. another option for less then $6000 total investment. Infrared heaters. 2" X 8' other sizes avalable. http://www.asphaltreheat.com/PortableHeaters.htm These will raise the ground temp over 100 degrees in less then 5 minutes.
Ok I had to go play and see how effective this would be. I have a 4' x 4' infrared reheater kind of like the one I posted in the last post. Outside temp is 15 degrees with a slight breeze. Sun is out but I did this in the shade. In some areas there was 2" of ice covered with blown snow. Some of the area was just hard snow pack 2" deep or less. The hot box has a timer on it that goes to 5 minute. I first set it on the snow pack and in 1 setting of 5 minute I was down to cement with a water covering it, the water was 70 degrees after the first set. I then moved the box over some ice which I had scraped the snow off and again set it for 5 min. after that set I had no ice under it and ware there was still water it was again around 70 degrees. There was also a small dry spot of high cement the water had run off of and it was setting at 110 degrees. again I moved the box over some asphalt to see if the darker background would help. it did it only took about 3 minute to produce the same results. I cleared most of 64 sq feet in a little under 20 minutes. The breeze has a major effect on this unit when I use it for melting asphalt for pothole repairs so I would suspect it also does here. Take it for what it is worth and I know there would be some trial and error but in all it would be less expensive and also require no heavy equipment to accomplish what looks like you are trying to do. View attachment 75242 View attachment 75243
Aditional photos
so far we haven't tried anything fancier than a backhoe. next year we will be set up with heat loops in the pads. for now hopefully we are a month away from nicer weather. thanks for all the good suggestions.
rshackleford---I have your solution and it's very simple and not real expensive at all really.I use it exclusively for pre-treating ice and ice removal in my plowing/salting biz.It's called Magic Salt or just the liquid is Magic O.Depending on your pavement temperature,NOT ambient air temperature,Magic Salt will work at -35*,just the juice is good for I believe app. 25*.It is a propietary formula made from magnesium chloride and distiller's waste.It smells like molasses and is non corrosive,will not hurt concrete or vegetation, and is one of the only ice control products that is EPA approved.Once I'm through plowing a lot,I'll lay down my Magic and within 45 minutes to an hour my lots are black wet.You only need half as much Magic salt as regular untreated salt to accomplish the end result plus Magic works much faster and with no harmful side effects. Here you go : http://www.magicsalt.info/
Does it keep ice from forming as well? Keep in mind that the truck drivers routinely leave open valves and unhook hoses spilling 100 gallons of water or more on the concrete up to ten times an hour.