International Harvester 500C is this a "GOOD" make dozer for everyday farm use ? I have a friend who has a chance to buy one from a widow who states her late husband owned it for quite sometime. My friend asked me about it and all i recall is that i thought this model had some type of problem. Could someone tell me about this machine and your opinion of it's overall good and bad points. The lady is asking $7000.00 for the machine. The dozer has a 6 way blade, that is all i can tell you about it at this point, He wants to have a look at it this weekend
Ok machine It was built by international back in the 1970's Parts are a. Bit of an issue- still available but not common. These were light duty machines and steering was always a headache. The td 12&15 were way better machines . Price is ok but you'll learn to wrench on that one M
Thanks for the info. I will pass it on to my friend. I think he should pass on this one, i knew i had heard some negatives on this machine but couldn't remember what they were.
The only make a good yard ornament. One the Japanese minis is far better.
Thanks, we did check it out today, my friend decided to pass, the machine was not all that good, it appears it has not been worked for sometime, the tracks and blade were rusted, also it had some blow-by. He is now looking at a 350 J.D. which i advised against, but it's his money.
i have a good 450c john deere dozer ready to go for 10000, they will push a 500 int. and their load
can you send some pics. I 'll pass um on, thanks
500c was a good machine for it's size. Very comparable to the deere 350. Both of these machines use a clutch steer system with all the steering in levers. D2's use a similar system but the clutches are levers and the steering are pedals. Lever clutch steer systems are tricky to adjust and due to *incompetence* get a reputation for being fragile. People who fool with them without prior education foul it up and then blame the machine. I disagree that Japanese machines are superior per se. NONE of the comparable Japanese machines can claim the performance. I seriously considered Komatsu and Mitsubishi, but with these machines you cannot have your cake and eat it too. You have the choice of a powershift transmission that compromises power to the tracks and has *no* travel speed gear, or a transmission that cannot quickly change direction. With the Deere for instance, you have a reverser that loses NO power to the tracks but reverses on the fly with no clutching and has a 4 speed transmission that has both working speeds and decent travel speeds. If you get a non-powershift Komatsu you have to clutch and shift a sliding gear transmission every time. Wear out your knee in a hurry. Once you get away from Mitsubishi and Komatsu, parts availability becomes a contradiction in terms. Parts are virtual unobtanium for older japanese machines and makes like Furukawa. Another option is the Case machines, but they use diff steering which has some advantages, but also disadvantages. The differential is basically a gear type positraction and you steer by braking one side. But you are fighting engine/positraction torque with a band brake where clutch steer types disconnect ALL power before engaging the brake. These systems (diff steer like Case) are comparatively simple to work on, but obviously the band brake won't last as long. Back to the 500, wear items are readily available, but things like engine parts and injection parts can be a real problem. IE if you need undercarriage you can get it, but if the injection pump goes out... well that might be bad. I *just* bought a 350C and spent VAST amounts of time researching this range of machines. I would have seriously considered a 500 if it was in decent shape and had a six way. But parts availability for the deere's is far superior to all other competition. This may be significantly due to USFS fire service relife programs, these machines are currently being used as fire plows. FWIW I would have bought something bigger (like a 450) but I can tow the 350 behind my pickup which is really appealing to me. Anything bigger is just too big for *any* class C vehicle except in the most ideal circumstances. Oh and one last note: Rust is of no (NO) consequence. Giving any serious consideration to rust on the blade is foolish at best. It's all about the undercarriage. Paint is cheap.
The Case isn't differential steer, it actually has 2 transmissions. You steer by putting one track in a lower gear than the other. This gives you power through the turns, which is nice sometimes.
totalloser, you speak with experience and obviously know what you're talking about. Lot's of good information in you're post, but why would J.D. design a clutch brake system that requires the entire tower, seat, tank, hydraulic res. not to mention all the lines hoses linkages ect just to get to get to the clutch brake? The average J.D. dealer wants close to $5,000.00, not counting parts to replace one side on a 450b J.D. or a 350 J.D. . Unless you are able to do the labor yourself, with the experience to do it properly, I would say the normal shade tree mechanic is going to have problems.
First off, I have to stress one detail. I have only done a small amount of work on dozers- and that was on big CATs My knowledge of these smaller machines comes primarily from research, and thus no hands-on experience... yet. I'll be pulling everything from the tracks to the reverser before I can run mine. The steering system description on the case machine, that sounds wrong to me. The only double power delivery system I was aware of is the big CAT hydraulic over mechanical on the high track models, but I don't speak with authority on that matter either. But keep in mind I am *only* referring to the Case 350. But with diff steer machines, when you brake one side it doubles the speed on the other side due to the diff gears walking. Accessing the steering on the Deere's can be a bummer, but from what I can tell the hard part is in the handling of big parts. On the 350's you have to pull the finals to get to the clutch/brake. The 350/350b use dry, but everything later (350c, 350d, 400 etc) use wet clutch brake systems which last a LONG LONG time. Also, the parts interchangeability is such that the metallic wet discs can be swapped into the dry clutch models. They are still run dry, but here's why it's worth considering: The fiber steering clutches don't like to get moist. They swell and lock up. Once locked (from sitting for a long time usually) it can be very difficult to free them up- sometimes teardown is required. But this failure won't happen with the metallic clutches. Adjustment is a big bummer, I'll also give you that. Newer hydraulic self adjusting systems help a lot with that, but older 350's are all mechanical linkages. Most dozer owners are not the average shade tree mechanic, but that type of owner is MUCH more common with these smaller machines. The problems come in handling the heavy parts (proper rigging) and the initial internal adjustments of the clutch. Without the little depth tool it is effectively IMPOSSIBLE to adjust correctly, and the finals have to come back off to correct the screwup. I still think the average shade tree can do fine IF he/she does the necessary homework. My opinion is that the bulk of problems come when they do not.
I don't know about parts availability these days, but 500C was actually a good small dozer. I know of a lot of parking lots and building pads in the area I grew up in were fine graded with one. And I agree with totalloser rust on tracks or blade doesn't matter. They'll be polished within the first minutes of operation.
I feel sort of bad saying it, but after reading this whole thread again, maybe a dozer isn't the right choice. These machines really aren't very practical for folks who are afraid of a wrench. Steering and undercarriage is expensive and difficult work that quickly becomes impractical if paying the dealer to do the work. Perhaps a large mini-excavator or large 4x4 wheel tractor would be a better choice? If you are in less of a hurry and want less maintenance, an industrial backhoe can be quite practical- mostly because no track/steering brake upkeep, and most things you can do with a 10-12k dozer can be done with a backhoe/loader. And industrial setups in the same price range often have enclosed cab, and usually have flat interior rotate the seat style switching from loader to backhoe. For a lot of work, such a machine will outperform a small dozer- such as tree removal.
After reading your post, I considered the the option of wheel machine vs. track, and you do make a valid case. The wheel machine would relive the owner from the expense of maintaining the U.C. and the steering brakes ect.. As you stated if one has limited knowledge to do the work himself, he or she would be better off to either avoid a track machine, unless his pockets run deep. In the case of buying a older dozer, more than likely it will require work and continued maintenance. The other alternative would be a newer machine with low hours, however, the price will be prohibitive for the average guy who only needs a farm machine for light work and maybe racks up a couple hundred hours a year or less. So yes if you have the funds and want a new or newer track machine just to play with for the most part, and don't mind spending $70 or $80,00 thousand dollars then why not, but how many of us can afford to do this. So the wheel loader/ back hoe combo. concept becomes more interesting.
I find it strange the original poster asked if an International 500C is a good machine or a bad machine to purchase or operate. Now he is being told he doesn't need a tracked machine. I spent 30 years running dozers full time in every condition imaginable in regards to dirt and material handling. Unless you know what the working conditions are, advising a wheeled machine over a tracked machine is foolish. In regards to the 350 Case dozer, I spent a lot time on them. They DO steer with two speed steering levers. There are no steering clutches in them like Caterpillar. The secret to easy steering with the Case 350 is proper adjustment of the pressure the springs exert on the detents that holds the levers in the position you select.
Thanks for the reply and your experience. The 450 b J.D. has dry clutches and are very hard to replace, , have you ever run one of these machines ? and what do you think of them?
Yes I have spent time on a JD 450 B series dozer. It had a six way blade and LGP tracks. I also spent a lot of time on a 450H LGP with a six way blade. The H series have hydrostatic drive in them. Out of all the small dozers I ever ran the JD 450's are my most preferred machine for finish grading, especially in ditches. My opinion is based on my experience running Caterpillar, Komatsu and Case dozers of the same relevant size.
Interesting, running a 450 b and owning and maintaining one is a vast difference, what is your opinion about the steering clutch brake on the 450 b and the great expense, mostly labor in replacing them?
Bleh, never mind.
My first thought is if your looking at old iron ................or any iron for that matter ...........Be ready & willing to wrench on it or have a good buddy close by that can help with mechanical trouble. Forget about sending it to a dealer as the cost will give you a nose bleed. Nothing wrong running older equipment.Educate & equip yourself with knowledge & needed tools and go after it!
Thanks td25 makes good sense but these things can be intimidating to the weekend mechanic, not to mention the needed tools for some of the work.
Just read through this all good advice. The only thing I can add is if it is old and has tracks get used to wrenching . Any of the old crawlers will work but you are guaranteed to start dumping money in them one way or another there is no free ride. You either pay a lot up front for a good runner or slowly dump the money and time in an old machine with all the joys of wrenching. Not trying to sound discouraging but that is how it goes around old iron, Good luck and have fun Steve
td25c said it best in post #20 Yes, there is a world of difference between running someone else's machine and having ownership of it and all the expenses that come with owning one. In regards to doing repairs on any old iron, I think it comes down to the situation the owner is in. If you need the machine for everyday use, an old machine breaking down or just needing worn out parts replaced is just not acceptable. In my situation I have the time to park my old T/L/B and repair whatever it needs. I don't mind sinking a lot of money in because I bought it at a reasonable price. I have invested more money in it than what I paid for it. But I do it with no regrets, because right now I own a machine that is over 30 years old and is in better condition than a lot of machines I have run that are less than 10 years old. If I had a need for that 450B dozer we all have been talking about in this thread I would buy it because I have the time and I can fix it. If I had to pay someone to do the repairs I would pass on it.
There is your answer.
You are fortunate to be able to do your own repairs, not all have your ability. One question that needs answered. What brand machine is the easiest to work on in your opinion?
I have no idea what brand of dozer is easier to work on. The company's mechanics did all the repair work. All I ever did was run them. I did run a, what we call -grease truck- for longer than I care to think about. So, I did drain and replace thousands (yes thousands) of gallons of oil in all kinds of heavy equipment.
Yair . . . I reckon anything with "conventional" steering and construction is the go. That is to say, brakes and clutches that come out the top . . . and I could never see the point in pedal or lever only steering. Nothing is much more intuitive than disconnecting drive (pull the lever) and then controlling rate of turn (foot on brake) . It's simple and does away all that linkage and adjustment B/S. I reckon when the boffins started getting fancy with the steering was about when dozer design started to go backwards. First foot controlled jigger I struck was a ** something. It had a six cylinder Perkins around 90HP and I battled with adjustments from the first day, horrible thing, they gave you a horizontal bar to hang on to to occupy your hands. Cheers.
[QUOTE=Scrub Puller;456 Cheers.[ What Make of dozer has that set up, where you can replace the steering brake without tearing it apart, such as J.D. ? Thanks for the reply
This video shows replacing the bevel & pinion gear on a Cat D4D dozer. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=73P1PXs1MiI My buddy has an old D4D & uses it for small projects at his farm. www.machinerytrader.com/listingsdetail/detail.aspx?OHID=9565745
After reading the first few threads I was getting to think I might have to call the junk dealer or park my 500C in the front yard. As a new dozer owner I can certainly say that my dozer and my Case 580 C TLB are not interchangeable on jobs. My 500C has a 6 way blade with a Neus (German) diesel with torque converter. I bought it for $2000.00 and it runs great but will need steering clutches rebuilt. I have only used it on one job to strip top soil, and create lifts as 75 truck loads of clay were delivered. This was only prep work as the professional excavator was too busy. I think for farm or part time use it would make a handy machine. I researched the clutch replacement, they come out the top without removing the tracks or final drives. It's only a 44HP 10,00lb machine (easy to trailer) but if you are willing to do some wrenching it should be a useful small dozer. I hope I don't have to eat my words next month when I plan to pull the clutches.
Kerry, Hey, that was some good info. you got a good deal at $2,000.00 , hope to hear from you when you pull the clutches, maybe you can post pics. as the work progresses.
Dillon I will keep you posted. The IH guys at Red Power, (mostly collectors using their toys rather than professional excavators trying to making a living) are a big help with the 500C and other old IH equipment. My machine sat outside for about 3 years unused. I made back the purchase price on one job and had a ball!! The most I ran it was about 4-5 hours at a time so it was not like work. I would not want to run a 500C 40-60 hours a week. The job was done using only right clutch brake. Forward turning right - reverse to go left. I'm a 58 year old just retired firefighter who loves playing in the dirt. I had a friend / Cat employee from Milwaukee who checked the undercarriage and engine and said go for it. I've got a bunch of old tractors including one with steel wheels and the dozer is a new high for me! Just looking for more opportunities to use it and learn. I realize most of you guys are professionals with years of experience and thank you for sharing your knowledge.
kURLY, sounds like fun, and yes there are some very knowledgeable people on board. Sound to me you like collecting the old iron, fantastic hobby good luck and happy holidays/ dillon
Yair . . . dillon45 . Sorry I missed your query but I think most of the the early Cat, Allis, International and Fiat small tractors had lift out from the top clutches. I am a bit out of my depth here and stuck my bib in, could be wrong . . . I have limited wrench time on small dozers. (he grins) Cheers
Scrub Puller, Hey thanks for your input, always good to hear something I was unaware of. Will let everyone know how it works out when it arrives,
Well, I received my 350 John Deere today just before dark, so i didn't have enough time to run it very long. I will run it tomorrow and give a update w/ some pics. ASAP.
John Deere 350 [/ATTACH] Hear is a view of the chain and sprockets. I drove it today and it seems to run ok ,not the best but will do. Appears it has a slight lower end noise but not sure, I'm going to change the fluids and filters and run it some more. Please NOTE: the LAST picture is not of this dozer, it's from a international.
Rails & sprockets look good. Lots of life in them.
I applied diesel fuel all over the chains and ran it for about an hour, i also hit the tracks w/ a sledge and then ran it some more. I believe I'm going to have to heat them and apply some penetrating oil. I hear a product called PB blaster is one of the best for getting into the rusted areas, i have never used it before but heard some good things about it, it's a little expensive but if it works it's worth it. Anyone ever use this product ?
Yeah, Pb blaster is a good product. I keep a can in the truck and shop www.pbblaster.com As far as freeing up the rails ......Fill up the fuel tank & run the heck out of the 350. Running it in standing water will also help loosen up tight tracks.
Thanks td25c for your advice, I appreciate your input.
Be cautious of some of the info given in this thread. I don't have the energy to hassle with people who don't know past yanking sticks. Operators generally give very good operating advice, and some give very good mechanical advice, and some do NOT. Nothing went backwards with the integrated controls at the sticks. It is a FANTASTIC system, trickier to engineer, trickier initial (internal) setup. Deere was ahead of it's time with it's small machines. CAT with the two hand two foot steering is easier to adjust, but a pain to operate in comparison. I seriously considered the Case 350's but didn't like the diff steer setup. Previous posters must be assuming the final is a two speed and it is NOT. Triple grousers won't give the traction of singles, but turn tighter and don't destroy the surface. I went back and forth on whether to get them. Be cautious of deep mud with them- if in doubt do a google search of stuck 350's and look at the track types in the pictures. It's not dire, think all terrain vs mud terrain tires. You should determine if you have SALT tracks IMMEDIATELY before putting any more solvents on the tracks. Things like diesel may harm the seals. Most folks don't shell out for replacement SALT tracks on these little machines, but they are available, and a REAL gem if you do happen to have them. Deere 350 and 350b are dry steering and the fiber clutches tend to absorb moisture if left sitting unused for too long. If and when they do, they swell slightly locking up the steering pack. Fire it up once in a while and use the steering for a moment and this won't happen. If you have to get into the steering, keep in mind (again) that the 350c metallic discs drop right in place of the fiber. These discs are more grabby when run dry, but MUCH more difficult to lock up from sitting- even when in a dry system. Also there is a special tool for setting the initial clutch pack height GET IT if you get into the packs. It is danged close to impossible to adjust properly without it. Lavoy at the JD forum sells them http://www.jdcrawlers.com/messageboard/index.php Lavoy sells them for pretty cheap. To get to the clutches, the tracks and finals have to come off. This is why it is critical to get the adjustment right the first time. Further adjustments can be made after initial assembly, but that first adjustment is critical. One reason I went Deere had a lot to do with the *fantastic* parts support for them. You may never need to get into the steering, but I'm posting this up in case you some day do. I think they are the best machine in their weight range, that's why I bought one. PS don't turn the 500c into yard art! :O Even if one of the dreaded unobtainium parts goes bad, they share engines with the wheel machines.
I think you're confusing opinions with advice. There's not too much bad advice on here, and hardly any pure "lever yankers" as you put it. Just a lot of enthusiasts who want to learn or share, not misguide. Your advice about tracks, while good as far as it went, stopped short. Putting oil, diesel, solvent or anything else on ANY chains, not just SALT, is bad practice. Oil and diesel penetrate and turn to grinding paste, as they never dry out, and solvent can penetrate and cause more corrosion between the pin and bush. Yours, IH100 (humble lever yanker)
Yair . . . totalloser . You do not "yank the sticks". You disengage the clutch levers with a simple fluid movement and then intuitively apply pressure to the brake pedal to control the rate of turn. When you have logged around sixty thousand hours . . . and done a lot of the wrenching you will realise there is no simpler system to operate or work on. Cheers.
I meant no offense to operators in general. But I also don't like being referred to as a fool for giving what I believe to be valid advice. It is crude, obnoxious and in this case potentially erroneous. What is foolish is to not ask the question and wind up with a machine that is not the most practical. It is not foolish advice unless promoted as THE answer, which it was NOT. As I understand it the clark diff/finals are being referred to as a two speed transmission. In this configuration you don't shift gears, you slow one side down with the band brake and the other side is forced to proportionally increase in speed through the diff gears walking. This is bad information as I see it. Many will read the thread and the myth will be spread just as all sorts of other internet myths spread. This myth is believable to those ahem... pulling sticks due to the way the machine performs. Why does this matter? Because there are only a handful of machines in this size, and anyone looking at a International 500 or Deere 350 probably will be considering the Case 350 as well. If turning speed is desired, the clark diff is superior. If low speed control of track loading (like cutting ditches) is desired, a clutch/brake system is superior.
Think you may have shot yourself in the foot, pal. The Cat transmission is a straight torque converter/power shift set up. When us thick old ops talk about double power transmissions we mean like Case or Eimco which effectively have a separate set of gears to both tracks, or the ACCO dozer or the Euc TC 12 with double everything. I don't know about the 350, but most Cases sold here had the ex-Atco Terramatics transmission which provided a true two-speed steering system. Most Case machines ended up with this transmission after they bought American Tractor, so you'll understand if some of us humble Yankers made a mistake. Having been on my share of Cases I've never seen one with diff steer, though I gather a few were made. Oh, and can you point out where you were called a fool? Can't seem to find it. On here we generally use something a bit stronger for emphasis.
I agree somewhat. The old steering where you had to use the brake pedals with the hand clutches was not bad. Cat continued to make sidebooms like 583s, 594s and 572s with the old steering system like that long after the D8Ks, D9Hs and D7G tractors they were based on had gone to the hand only setup. I don't pretend to be a real "boom hand", but I think the guys who were must have told Cat they preferred the smoothness of the old steering?
Getting back to the original topic of the thread, I asked an old retired fine grade dozer operator about the IH 500C, because I know he spent a lot of time on one. He said the 500C was a very good machine for fine grading.
Thank you to everyone who replied to this post. I gained a lot of very good information that i hope to put to use.