I don't know a whole lot about older IH machines, but I always thought they made their own engines. Anybody know anything about it?
International was known to use other manufacturers engines when they built tractors in foreign countries, particularly England. But I don't believe it was common. What one would be doing up in your neck of the woods is a real mystery. Looks like it saw it's share of trouble and abuse too. On the other hand, you might have something that someone put together out of pieces, though that would be fairly difficult on a machine that size, which looks to be about a TD20 or TD24 size. Could be a foreign built TD18 or TD20 too.
Thanks for the info Joe. It is a TD 20, the fuel tank is laying there behind the mess and that was what the sticker said anyway. I didn't think to look around for a tag or something showing the place of maufacture. The engine seemed to be a factory install. It was a real clean fit. I assume it spent its life on a farm, since it didn't have any hydro's of any kind. I would like to see the object that punched that hole in the radiator!
You,ve possibly got a BTD20 there...made in the UK & used in UK & Australia.
I didn't even know that RR built a diesel.
It's in all probability a BTD20, they were the biggest machines IH made in Doncaster, UK, though I heard they built a few 250 track loaders on the same skid unit. Never seen one. The BTD20's were used on the blade and construction over here. The smaller tractors used UK-built IH engines, as did the track loaders, only the 20 (&250) took the Rolls. Rolls made a whole range of diesel engines that went into most UK military vehicles in the 70's and 80's, as well as an option in Foden, ERF and Scammell trucks and the Vickers crawler.
I've seen a fairly big inline 6 RR diesel genset here in SA, it looked like it had been there for some time! Still runs though and didn't sound half bad either. It is used by a resort of sorts that a chap from London set up a good few years ago, I assume he brought it in.
Thanks for the info guys. I was talking to my dad about the machine last night and he was telling me about seeing a BMD at a tractor show in Indiana. He had no idea what it was so he got to talking to the owner. Turns out it was a British built M Diesel Farmall farm tractor. He said what really got his attention about the tractors engine was the direct injection for the fuel. The U.S. built IH Diesel engines started on gas, then switched over to Diesel after they were warm enough. I rememeber an old TD 14 our nieghbor had that was like that. When I get back down to Pacso I'm gonna have to stop and take a look at the tractor again. See if I can find a build plate.
Jason, The BTD 6 were similar ....they had a straight 264 diesel,instead of gas start. Suits Australian conditions OK,but I don't know how they start up in the cold UK climate.. Great little dozer as long as the glow plugs & batteries were OK.. Jim
Jim, the BTD6's and drott variants were huge sellers in the UK. As you say if the glow plugs worked and the excess fuel button stayed in they'd always start. It'd be 2 cylinders and a cloud of white smoke, then 3 and when the 4th one caught there'd be a huge cloud of grey and black smoke for a few seconds and away you'd go. The Td's with petrol start were more of a problem as when they were hot, if they stalled the petrol vapourised in the carb and they would't go until they'd cooled a bit.
Like the photo with the old Allis-Chalmers dozer in the background. Sure would like to have the fuel tank. I have an Hd-15 and my tank is dented some from scraper work. Did you notice if it was an Hd-15, or HD-16? It appears to be about that size. Where might these machines be located? I see it all to much. Someone cuts up an old piece of equipment because they are tired of looking at it. And, a person someplace on this planet is searching for it or the parts.
These machines are located in Pasco, Washington. I can't remember the name of the junk yard they are sitting at. I also don't know what the old Allis is. Heres a pic of it, mabey you, or someone else can tell us!
These machines are all over eastern Washington, I still see a few in use when I make my way out to Odesa.
Allis Chalmers HD-15 That old dozer is an HD-15. You can tell by the Detroit 671 engine. Fun tractor to operate. Nothing sounds better than a 671 at idle. High idle, a different story !
Well I stopped in to the have a look around today, and mabey get a picture of the builders plate on this machine. This was all that was left! Looks like the scrapie's got to it over the winter.
What a shame.......
Wilson Tractor Colfax Wa. had one years ago that I drove around their lot.Very good condition but could have bought it cheap as parts were hard to find and it had a tick in the transmission.If I remember right it was made in UK.
After WWII we had a neighbour here managing a property he more or less hijacked this guy was a disposal addict, there was staff cars, scouts, 2 x Ansaldo Fossati, Galion, Inter TD? and two Matilda Army tanks which had twin RR diesels. They made a mad sound last one the scavengers were trying to put on a low loader in the 70's, one engine was down and it rather went around in circles, still remember that RR diesel though. Oh, why at Tank, well the crazy guy was going to clear land with them, bash into trees, walk them down. I can still recall the hysteric laughter around the shed (wool shed) about his plan, as my Dad used to tell the story and as it all came undone once the tank rode up on a few trunks first push coming to grinding and gnashing halt. I remember he also had a pair of Air Marshall's with rubber pad tracks, special blades were made, only problem was when the machine lifted them, the suspension sank - odd but true, never did a thing, especially once a few rocks and dirt went into the undercarriage.
massive IH Dozer in Iceland Here is one I found in Iceland. Looks like it hasn't been run in awhile. I would post an image but it looks like it's not permitted right now.
The BTD-20 was the biggest POS that IH ever produced, and nothing deserved the scrappers hot axe more, than that model of machine. I worked in co-operation with a farmer/contractor for one year (1967), and we went chaining (clearing with anchor chain) for the Winter of 1967. I had a D6C and he had a BTD-20. I spent many days waiting for that broken down BTD-20 to be fixed, so we could start chaining again - only for it to break it again. The Rolls Royce engine was probably the best part of it, and even that wasn't all that good. The RR diesels were quaintly termed "oil engines" and they actually produced quite a lot of them. They powered trucks, earthmovers, gensets, and a few other items - and they found their way to places as remote as Afghanistan, Pakistan and the Antarctic. The RR diesels had poor back-up in terms of service and parts, and the engines themselves suffered from excessive use of poor-quality alloy components that comprised large portions of the cooling system. As a result, cooling system corrosion was a constant source of problems and engine failures. Some of the BTD-20's problems stemmed from poor quality steels or metal treatments - a problem endemic to British-built crawler tractors, where the manufacture of U.S. designs had been transferred to Britain. I have no idea where the steel problems originated from - whether it was something lost in the translation - or something to do with the poor quality of British steel - or poor attention to detail in steel heating, tempering, and hardening treatments. However, the BTD-20 had plenty of basic steel quality and QC problems - along with the earliest British-built Cat D8H's, which also suffered from steel failures in crucial components such as crankshafts, amongst other parts. Cat overcame the steel problems in the British-built D8H, but IH never succeeded in making the BTD-20 even remotely reliable. AU.CASE - There were never any Matilda tanks produced with RR diesels. Either the tank you saw had been repowered, or you're mistaken in your engine ID. The reasons why there never was a RR diesel Matilda tank, are as follows: 1. The Matilda tank was produced from just before WW2 to the end of WW2. It was totally obsolete by the late 1940's. The RR diesel was not designed and produced until the late 1950's. 2. The diesel Matilda tank was powered by either AEC or Leyland diesels. The AEC diesel in the Matilda was an oddball precombustion-chamber model, as compared to the more commonly used direct injection models used in trucks and buses.
Thanks, OzDozer--appreciate the stories of running the IH and Cat dozers. I know how frustrating breakdowns can be, especially on big iron that you can't fix with a screwdriver and piece of baling wire. I'm not an operator, but am fascinated by the engineering and technology needed to get these beasts to operate in some of the most demanding and hostile conditions imaginable. I'll post a pic of the IH dozer sitting by the sea in Iceland when I have the go-ahead from the site. Since it's in an area of many rocks and boulders, that is probably what it was used for--to push them around until it finally broke. It is intact, with full cab, minus the blade. Nearest scrapyard is many miles away so it will probably sit there for a good long while. Thanks again for all the info--I appreciate it.
IH and Rolls Royce For construction equipment IH used their own engines almost, if not exclusively. For their trucks, International introduced Rolls Royce diesel engines in the spring of 1959. While my info reflects Canada I suspect that RR engines were also available for the US market. Displacing 743 cubic inches, the naturally aspired C6N produced 186 and 210 horsepower while the C6T turbo version produced 250 and 300 horsepower. As best I am able to determine RR diesels had fallen off the table, at least for IH trucks, by 1963. I have some advertising brochures shedding some light but my low tech cut and paste technique doesn't work with this site. Maybe later. Scott
So far as I know, IH never produced a TD20 or other model crawler tractor with a Rolls Royce engine in the United States. They did in England as someone on this forum noted some time ago. They may have exported those tractors to Aus and Canada. I myself never had much use for any TD20 crawler, until the model with the V8 International engine came out. Finally, a tractor with power that adequately moved the machine in it's weight class! It is surprising however, what the heavy equipment manufacturers did or tried to do when they wanted to get updated or new models on the market, including the war years when some components like engines were in short supply. Love the old histories of crawler tractors.
Surfer Joe - The British RR "oil engine" was an attempt by IHC to gain sales advantages in British Commonwealth countries - of which, Canada and Australia comprise the two most well known Commonwealth countries - but there were a lot of British Commonwealth countries in the 1960's. British Commonwealth countries gave each other, "favoured trading partner" status - which meant lower tariffs and duties on items imported from other British Commonwealth countries. As a result, a British-built BTD-20 tractor with a British-built RR oil engine could be imported into Australia (and Canada) at a much more favourable price range, than an American-built TD-20 tractor, that was all-American built. The high tariffs and duties on American equipment imported into Australia were imposed, because the U.S. bought very little from Australia - the U.S. didn't need anything Australia produced, the U.S. produced prodigious amounts of both manufactured and agricultural products. Thus the high tariffs were designed to prevent a massive trade imbalance between Australia and the U.S., that would have seen Australia become seriously indebted to the U.S. for a very long time. The part about the RR engines in IH trucks is interesting. The RR, C series, "oil engine" was produced from 1951 to about the early 1970's. Initially, it was produced in naturally aspirated form - then it was supplemented by a supercharged version - then a turbocharged version was added in the late 1950's. The RR "oil engines" initially operated at a (fast for the era) maximum rated speed of 1800RPM - but this was increased to 2100RPM by the mid-1950's. This range of engines was designated the "C series", and was produced in 6 cylinder and 8 cylinder models with either aluminium alloy or cast iron blocks. It appears that RR "oil engines" were never sold in the U.S., as RR regarded the U.S. market as highly competitive - and the range of diesel engines already available in the U.S. made the U.S. market, a "mature" market, without much potential for RR. RR decided that they could sell their engines more favorably in the less-developed British Commonwealth countries - and they also aimed at the Antarctic and cold regions areas for sales. The RR engines were tested at temperatures as low as -65°F and still started satisfactorily at that temperature, although with aids such as ether, low-viscosity oil, 32V starting, and hot air pumps pumping hot air through the battery compartment and the crankcase. Two other areas that RR "oil engines" found markets in, were small rail locomotives and marine use. The RR "oil engine" found a surprisingly unexpected market after RR purchased the Sentinel company in 1956. Sentinel were known for their excellent steam products, that included rail locos and steam-powered trucks. Sentinel were still producing "steam lorries" as late as 1950 - although they had started producing a line of diesel trucks from around 1946. Sentinel made the change to diesel much too late, and amazingly, the last two Sentinel steam locos came off the production line in 1958! At the time RR purchased Sentinel, Sentinel employed 1700 workers, and manufactured locomotives, machine tools, diesel vehicles and specialised vehicles for the Ministry of Supply. RR picked up the Sentinel products line when they purchased Sentinel, and gained RR engine sales by installing the RR oil engines into Sentinel locos. These sold well, and RR oil engine sales increased accordingly. In addition, RR picked up a very good, and a fairly new factory, at Shrewsbury, when they purchased Sentinel. RR oil engine production was moved from Derby to Shewsbury in 1957. RR oil engines were also installed in British Rotinoff, Scammell, and Thorneycroft heavy duty prime movers (truck-tractors) - as well as MacMillan & Bloedel logging trucks in Canada. These were not produced in big numbers. The RR C series engine was also installed in range of British lorries (highway trucks) such as Leyland, ERF, Foden and Atkinson. The C series engine was also available as an option in British-built Euclid R22 trucks. In addition, RR picked up a deal with the Vickers company around 1956, to install RR oil engines in the new Vickers crawlers - the Vickers Vigor and the Vickers VR180. The Vickers crawler was not successful due to some very basic failures, such as the use of mild steel fasteners, where high tensile fasteners were needed. The Vicker crawlers also suffered from poor transmission design that made them unreliable. RR had engine assembly divisions in both Australia (Kent Rd., Mascot, N.S.W.) and in Canada (Cote de Liesse Rd., Montreal). By the mid-1970's, RR "oil engines" were being sold in 100 countries. In the mid 1960's, the RR C-series oil engine was offered, modified to American standards with the addition of U.S.-built accessories, such as Delco-Remy electrics, rather than the British CAV electrics. This engine was fitted to CP compressors, a range of gensets, and a number of other industrial uses. RR produced an enlarged and improved Eagle diesel engine from around 1976. Whereas the C series engine was 743 cubic inches in the 6 cylinder version - and was all imperial (inch) dimensions - the new Eagle MkVI 6 cylinder was all metric, with a bore of 135mm and a stroke of 152mm, for a displacement of 13 litres (about 794 cu in). The Eagle MkVI engine was offered by the White Motor Truck Corp, from about 1977 from memory, as an alternative engine option in White highway trucks sold in Australia. A small number of White trucks were fitted with these RR Eagle engines. RR also produced a new line of "V" engines in 1976, called the CV8 and CV12. These engines were not a commercial success, although the CV12 engine (at 1200HP) was used in the British Challenger MBT (Main Battle Tank) A 4-valve head Eagle MkVI was prototyped, but never went into production. This engine was to be rated at 350HP in the 6 cyl version. The failure of the RR diesel engines division in the late 1970's was related to their intense tie-up with the Foden company. Foden was a major buyer of RR diesel engines - but they failed dismally to come up with engineering changes that would match the European onslaught of Scania and Volvo on the British truck market. Foden fell into severe financial difficulties in mid 1977, for the second time, after having been bailed out of near bankruptcy in the early 1970's. Part of the Foden problem was its failure to go metric in engineering design. The Foden company was placed into liquidation about 1978 and the assets of Foden were sold to Paccar. The Rolls Royce Oil Engines company fell into bankruptcy in the early 1980's and was sold to the Massey-Ferguson owned Perkins Engines in 1983. Perkins continued to build Perkins-RR engines - but the purchase of Perkins by Caterpillar in 1997 saw the end of the Perkins-RR diesel engines. On a scale of reliability and owner satisfaction, the RR "oil engine" comes well down the list, behind Cummins, Cat, GM (Detroit) and even behind other British diesel manufacturers such as Leyland, AEC, and Gardner. The RR C-series "oil engine" was quite archaic in design, using a jackshaft-driven injection pump (with it's inherent problems of jackshaft failure), excessive use of poor quality alloy components in contact with coolant (and the resultant corrosion disasters), poor engineering design (component inaccessability) - and expensive parts, with relatively poor parts supply. The C-series engine also suffered from occasional liner movement, that resulted in coolant leaks into the crankcase. Also, injector tubes were a regular problem, and expensive specialised tooling was needed to get them out. In addition, despite RR bragging about their engines ability in climatic extremes - in many hot regions, the RR engine was found wanting in the cooling dept, with overheating being a problem. However, this was a common problem with most British diesel engines in hot climates, though. All in all, the RR "oil engine" wasn't a complete disaster - but there were better engines available. Owners and operators of RR "oil engines" appear to have mixed opinions over the RR C-series engines - although the majority seemed to be happy enough with their "average" performance. Put simply, an 855 Cummins was a vastly better engine choice over a RR diesel engine.
OzDozer, a lot of the reasons for the Rolls engines decline was more down to marketing and costing than engineering. There are still a lot of Rolls powered Fodens and ERF's on the road over here, whereas their contemporary Volvo and Scania rivals are only to be seen in truck shows. The later Eagles were regarded as a good engine, and after the Paccar takeover of Foden and ERF was retained as an option. Over here the Cat powered versions were not highly regarded, but then they lagged behind Detroit and Cummins in the states. Reading your posts it seems you have a down on British engineering generally, but having lived in Mozambique for a couple of years, there seemed to be an awful lot of Rolls Powered ERF and Fodens pulling B trains in conditions certainly no more conducive to long life and reliability than Aussie roads. For a long while it was a similar story in the middle east, with many Rolls, Leyland and AEC powered trucks still working nearly 30 years old. Also to put Rolls behind Gardner in terms of customer satisfaction is no insult, over here most engines were behind Gardner in that respect. There are a lot of older guys from haulage and public transport backgound who still decry the loss of the Gardner line. Also the poor metallurgy argument about Brit-built crawlers sounds a bit more Wikipedia than real world, as Fowlers lasted, Track Marshalls lasted, Brit-built Cats and smaller Internationals lasted. Over here they did, anyway. Other than arguably the engine (they seemed to last well enough over here) is there any evidence that the BTD20 suffered more back end failures than its contemporary TD stablemate?
If you go to this site - http://tractors.wikia.com/wiki/International_BTD-20 - you will see 6 pictures of a red restored BTD-20 (British build equivilent to the American / Canadian TD-20) with Rolls Royce engine. The engine details are the same. Scott
The BTD20 was a good bit of trouble to keep going due to a few issues, the early tractors did not have oil pressure fed gearbox's, to strip out a "20" gearbox was a right ball-ache having to strip off the top deck plate covering the complete top of the main case, I used to get a disc saw into the cab and hack through the gearbox section of this top plate saving me a good day's work removing all the other components,the gearbox even with the oil pressure fed set up would calve down near always involving the forward-reverse gear hub, this had a very thin bearing set-up fitted to it the bearings being Bower USA made, the bearings just could not stick the load poked into them and needed to be at least twice the width? the main shaft was some weight to lift out by hand even harder to put back in plus the fancy lock nuts used on the gear shaft ends would best be described as doing their job well as undoing them was a knack needing plenty of on off motion, the final drives like most I/H iron around just did not hold enough oil plus had poor sprocket support, the gears where "Tocco" hardend but a gear is only as good as the bearing supporting it and the bearing is only as good as the oil around it?? the "Roller" powering things along was a fairly good engine with most Plant Hire fitters being fairly good at keeping them running as they needed only average skill levels to keep fettled up, the injector tube removing/fitting was a simple task that we managed many times without "specialised" tools (an Elora 1/2" drive socket would be whacked into them then wobbled free?) so I would say that the only odd ball thing on the Roller was the 6 stub exhaust, this was often replaced with a shop made near as dam it item, but saying the engine was crap is not true in my experience, the CV8-12 engines were made realy for the Military use with low life time service requirments, a Tank only has to last 1 Battle???
OzDozer, That's an excellent account of that part of Rolls Royce history, something that I've never read elsewhere. I'm saving it in my RR history stuff! Thank's! I'm an enthusiast of RR and I don't think that what you said is a put-down of British engineering. RR had early success in the aero engine field by way of improving material quality, and then later had great failure due to their metallurgy not keeping up with the state-of-the-art. I have no experience with British construction equipment, but my experience with British aircraft and engines of the 40's - 70's agrees with what you wrote; the aero stuff are products of good engineering that suffer from low value metallurgy. (It's the false economy of stingy-ness; three less costly low yield bolts would be used where one high yield bolt would suffice, neglecting the cost of machining the two extra holes and bolts for each necessary fastener... and the extra quality assurance costs of all the extra holes and fasteners. EN-40B nitride hardening steel must have been as valuable as gold in Britain, as stingy as it's use was.)
ih100, that was a good bunch of verbs you put together on the Roller, its a fact that no other engine built beats a Gardner, the very detailed script of OzDozer on the BTD20 does make me smile some, I have owned and run 2 BTD20's in my moments and found them ok for a certain style of graft, pushing off landfill sites being ideal, the Roller engine is and was always a top starting motor with hardly a turn of the crank to bring things to life, to see Rolls Royce engines perform in generator spec when hooked up to a Load Bank test is something to wonder at, with large single hit loadings e.g. 200kva the Rollers hardly flicker, Cummins motors suffer a good bit with this load hit with CAT 3406's near stopping and struggling to handle the load in 1 swallow, the Jack Shaft thing also does not cause me any problems as engines like Volvo Komatsu etc use a jack shaft of sorts??, plus what is with this "Oil Engine" thing??? as this is how Diesel engines were described in the U.K. in the past by many engine builders, Sentinel always called their Lorry's "Waggons" I tend to think we all knew what a Waggon was and we all could understand the "Oil Engine" thing, as its Our bunch of Verbs, I am working on a Roller towards the end of next week in a generator set, this is swapping out cylinder liners, cam-shaft and followers, piston spray jets (damaged) etc, the jack shaft is A1 and I dont think the injector tube thing will bother me as I still have my service tool (old socket) in my handyman kit.
Your right about the Gardiners TC. Absolutely worshiped as a marine motor here due to there reliability. The 8LX and 6 were extremely popular. Thing with boats is you cant walk home. Something all these modern engines with there electronic engine controls will never be accused of. Reliability ! Electrics and salt water will never work. Foden trucks were very popular here. 3406 power by far the most prefered, alot were used in log haulage. Alot of 35 ton Aveling Barford dumpers came to nz, all roller powered. Most were repowered with the 'buzzin dozen' eventually. Have seen very few BTD20s in nz, although a few did come here. Storys about weak transmissions and/or bevel gears were there weakness. Did see a dozer its owner called 'interpussy'. He welded the chassis rails and engine from a BTD20 to the bevel gear case, with transmission from a 17A and modified the IH trackframes to fit the D7 rear end. A self taught engineering genius and it all worked. Welds and fabrication looked like it was made in the factory. I looked over it for 10 minutes trying to work out what and how it was before he explained it all. Knew the front end and roller mota was IH. along with track frames. But also knew the final drives were caterpillar ! ! Sadly no camera that day ! Owner said it performed exellent and he did alot of logging and land development with it ! Old story of 'short on cash, but long on time' !
ih100 - I don't have "a down" on British engineering, in general. However, there were some British items of engineering that did not pass muster when it came to matching the reliability, and service and parts backup, that large amounts of American equipment provided. The BTD-20 is one British machine that I worked alongside, with my D6C, and I know exactly how it performed over an extended period of time - poorly, in comparison to my hard-worked D6C - doing exactly the same work. The British steel problem is not a figment of my imagination, and not a Wikipedia fabrication or embellishment. There is a lawsuit record here in Western Australia, whereby a company purchased 2 of the new British-built D8H's in the early 1960's, and they performed so badly, that the company dumped them back in Wigmores Tractors yard and proceeded to sue Wigmores Tractors. The tractors had various major problems ranging from broken crankshafts to final drive problems - plus a lot of niggling problems in between. The availability of the tractors was so poor, that the argument for the lawsuit was that the company "bought bulldozers to bulldoze - and they wouldn't bulldoze". Under todays laws, this is termed "fitness for purpose", meaning that if a product does not perform as the manufacturer advertises, then he/she is entitled to a refund. To cut a long story short, the company won and Wigmores had to refund the companys purchase monies. I understand Caterpillar spent some considerable time tracing and solving the steel quality problems associated with the British-built D8H. As to the International crawlers overall quality - I can tell you this much. I operated as an earthmoving contractor for over 30 yrs, and virtually every contractor that I worked with, or who worked in opposition to me - who purchased and used IH crawlers - went bankrupt - bar one. The sole IH-using contractor who survived, used TD-25's - which were about the pick of the IH bunch of crawlers. This contractor started with TD-15's and TD-20's and soon disposed of them, after obtaining poor reliability from them. He even showed me a TD-15 conrod that had ventilated a TD-15 block - and the conrod had an air-bubble in the centre of the forging! The Mozambique situation is no indicator of worldwide success for a particular brand of model. In the case of many 3rd world countries, desperation often forces operators to continue to use equipment that is obsolete, unreliable, and well past its use-by date. If we use your analogy, then we should all return to using 1950's Chevys, as in Cuba - or 1960's Bedfords, as in Pakistan!
Tony - Remind me, to never let you near my best Elora sockets, if you consider that they have "RR injector tube removal tool", written on them! Yes, I hear you, though. Many a time I have impressed a tool into service, for a job that it was ever never designed for! As the old saying goes, "when you're up to your a** in crocodiles, it's difficult to remember your initial objective, was to drain the swamp"!
D6Merv - Yes, it's amazing what some blokes can produce, with little formal training, and just a workshop and some clever design thought. I think the best I've seen recently, is the Case/Deutz tractor combination, and the Deutz/Bedford spray unit - both built by a particularly clever bloke in South Australia. http://www.hcvc.com.au/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1326245412/18
OzDozer, the Elora Socket is not for removing the copper chunk that the injector is parked in, a chisel or a crap screwdriver is used for that task, the taper style Elora socket is for swelling the new copper insert in the head, the spare part situation for these 20's was no trouble in the U.K. as there was plenty of knackers parked up, but dont think it was British built totaly as their was plenty of Yank bits poked in em' but to be fair to the old bangers they could perform to a set level, but they would start "freaking out" under the "BOOT" It was the common thought in the U.K. that anything TD14 upwards was a large amount of noise with #=+? all happening?? the TD24 was the master of this, 2 big funnels to make plenty of Din, without any gallop in them when it comes to a bit of graft, the little track shovel end of the market was a better set of toys, cheap to buy and cheap to run, most old style Plant Hire Co's in the U.K. made good coins out of these little Chariots, you cannot compare the U.K. to the Hinterland for running a 20.
Tony, we always reckoned that the tractors advertised with the most HP for the weight were the ones that would keep you poor. Despite most of the Cats being behind on outright dirt-moving performance - they at least kept going, when you most wanted them going - and the number of owners who went broke using Cat equipment, is a vastly smaller number than those who used "Brand X" machines. Here's a RR powered CP compressor I inspected recently for another forum member. The compressor was taken out of service when the Roller dropped all her coolant in the sump (crankcase). The owner pulled the heads off (possibly 5 or 6 yrs ago) and then abandoned any efforts at trying to get her running again. The hourmeter reads a bit over 7000hrs, which seems low for a 1968 YOB compressor. Surprisingly, the bores are good - probably only .001" or .002" wear - but the coolant manifold is showing signs of serious corrosion of the alloy metal parts, in line with RR problems. It appears that parts for the C series RR engines are now virtually unobtainable, making this unit - with its obvious liner problems, a virtually unrepairable unit. The seller claimed he had new gaskets and reconditioned injectors - but when I paid him a visit, the story changed to "my dumb mechanic threw the new gasket sets and injectors out" CP compressor with RR engine for sale - http://www.gumtree.com.au/s-ad/gidg...pressor-rolls-royce-diesel-600cfm/1005419362# 1. Engine bores - http://i46.tinypic.com/rrrw2w.jpg 2. Engine bores close up - http://i48.tinypic.com/34teou1.jpg 3. LHS of engine showing tags - http://i48.tinypic.com/1ze8uxi.jpg 4. Close-up of tags - http://i48.tinypic.com/bea5qu.jpg 5. Pushrods on mudguard - http://i50.tinypic.com/feggt5.jpg 6. LHS rear of engine and starter motor - http://i47.tinypic.com/2sacgns.jpg 7. Engine hour meter - http://i46.tinypic.com/2i07qdu.jpg 8. Top of engine, RHS - http://i45.tinypic.com/1pik93.jpg 9. RHS of engine - http://i49.tinypic.com/any2e.jpg 10. RHS front of engine - http://i46.tinypic.com/e84p5e.jpg 11. Heads, rocker gear, manifolds & fasteners in shed - http://i47.tinypic.com/29qbfq9.jpg 12. Close-up of coolant manifold corrosion - http://i45.tinypic.com/53a5vn.jpg
Definetly very very clever; and patient man there Ron. Cheers for sharing.
Its funny all tis talk of a TD20 with a RR, I was at a blokes place in Muntagin in WA (Aust) and there was one at his shed, didnt look like a runner but it did look complete. As for British gear I dont like Bedfords much!!! They had nothing on the Accos of the same vintage but I will fess up to owning a couple!! Cheers
Massive dozer? CATlover, I live in Iceland and I think I know what machine you are talking about. There´s an old BTD20 sitting on the beach in southern Iceland, down on a rocky shore. So it´s not more massive than being an 18 ton tractor. But it´s rusty and abandoned and the last thing it was used for was pulling a barge up from the sea shore. That barge was used for ferrying tourist to a little rocky island by the beach. Anyway, that´s the only IH tractor I can think of by a seaside in Iceland.
Rolls Royce diesels were also fitted to British built Euclid dump trucks and I worked on a few of them at Twizel in New Zealand in the early '70's. They were called B1's and about 25ton capacity. Ended up repowereing some of them with Cummins NT310 engines. John
The Rollers were known to be a fragile motor in the BTD20, but they were a good starter. I know of one case where a BTD20 was run into by another piece of machinery and proceeded to start and idle its way through a yard causing quite a deal of carnage, and another incident where a mechanic lost his fingers on one hand while barring a BTD20 over and it fired trapping his hand between the frame and the breaker bar he was using. Operator error in both cases. The recollection of many who came in contact with them was the large number of relatively small cylinder head bolts on these engines. Certainly not the best of the breed, definitely not up to the standard of a CAT of the era.
Karl, thats a couple of eye watering details in your post, I always liked the way the "Roller" Fired up as though it was going to move Mountains, those Mountains we now know as small Hillocks??? but on the upside of things Rolls Royce built some fine engines like the Merlin etc, they also had a goodish Motor Car thing going, if the BTD20 was crap what is the thought on the TD30, the only 30's I ever managed to get near was 1 on a Landfill Site near Stratford upon Avon?? that was going rusty and a Knacker, the other 1 was parked on the Lancaster Bomber runways at Nelson Greens Knacker Yard, it looked in strong fettle but I was told it was a top chunk of crap??? not worth the fuel in the tank, the td30 on the Landfill Site had crank troubles I was told???
What were you doing my side of the country, Tony? I'll bet the TD30 sat there until it collapsed in a heap of rust unless someone gave Nelson what he thought it was worth.
ih100, this is a fact not a dream up thing, but the last time I had a deal with Nelson it was to buy the innards of a BTD20 gearbox, the machine I stripped out was in better nick than the BTD20 I had just bought off Tom Read (Monty), the tractor that I pulled the G/Box out of was an Ex Forestry Commision unit, I used to often drive a Low Loader for a Plant Dealer and often meet up with Nelsons Low Loader and driver at these Auction sites, on Nelsons trailer would be a David Brown Winch tractor that he would use to pull the dead lumps on board his "Vessel" I used to help him load up, then he would help me gather up my toys to cart back to the yard, most of my items would be good bangers, but Nelson used to like the Mullered kit.
I believe it, Tony. Never had cause to deal with him myself, but know a lot who did. My late father was at school with him. He always had a reputation as a rust magnet round here. He seemed to have a lot of IH plant pass through his yard.
heres one.... http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=endscreen&v=oHowVWE6Tlc&NR=1
oregon, these BTD 20's are fairly common on U.K. dirt this tractor is in top nick, it looks like the exhaust is made of stainless steel, the originals where made of CoCo tins and would vanish like beer with a Tramp, the thing I would like to see is the U.S. built TD30 moving a great dollop of muck, because in the U.K. they never managed to push a "Barkers Egg" ( Dog Turd) this tractor made the BTD 20 look good. p.s. this BTD20 is owned by John Milne Walker who runs a very active machinery Company dealing with Volvo Equipment so he knows about good iron and what it can do.
In mid-1970 my company (located in former Yugoslavia) bought 20 British-made Euclid R25 (long nose!) dump trucks, half of them with the RRs, the rest with the Cummins NTCs, all rated at 335 bhp. Ten years later, we replaced all the RRs with the new NTCs. It is not only that the NTCs were more reliable then RRs, but - more important - Cummins provided much better service (parts, etc.) in my country. However, my colleagues never thought of the RRs as "bad engines" - they were better than many others, but definitely Cummins was the best. It seems that the British were more interested in their local market and in their former colonies, than to compete with Cummins, Cat and GM in the rest of the world.
pertarg, Cummins had a factory in the U.K. (Shotts) that built engines for the U.K. needs also for Europe,so the Cummins motors would have been U.K. produced engines, the thing with Cummins is all they produced was engines, Rolls Royce produce loads of things the truck engines was just a chunk of something big that was sold off, I am a massive fan of Cummins engines but the service and parts site's in the U.K. are about 10% of what was around 10 years ago, so it would now match the R/R service and parts back up, the best engine builder in the World packed up a good few years ago "Gardner" no other engine could take the pounding they did, the only other engine that stands with it is the 14 Litre V8 Scania 335hp-530hp, both Gardner and the V8 are the engines "Perfect" p.s. Any comments on the TD30 (U.S.A. Built) or even a few pic's of 1 at work??
tctractors... OK, the Gardners were really the best. Some 50 years ago, Sarajevo transport company was buying ex-London Transport second-hand double deckers, some of them with Gardner diesels. When the buses were scraped, some of the Gardners traveled more than 2,000.000 kms - in dense city traffic! I didn't say RRs were bad, they were better than many others, Cummins was simply better than RRs and at that time they maintained a better service network all over the world. A that time, the construction company I was working for has been really big - and what we did: over 250 bhp we wanted Cummins, under that (if available) it was Deutz air-cooled (great with Iraqi summers with over 50 degC!). We also bought 30 Scania V8s in Kockums 442 dump trucks - those early V8s were a disaster in the off-highway duty! We replaced all of them with Volvo TD122s! But don't misunderstand me! In years 2001-2006 I was the Aftersales Manager of Scania BH (Bosnia-Herzegovina). I still think we were (and they still are) selling and servicing the best trucks and engines in Europe! The inline-six performed brilliantly in many off-highway vehicles and machines. As for IH bulldozers, in our domestic operations we were using many TD25Cs with IH DTI-817C diesels - they were good machines, in some ways better (production!) than Cat D8Ks. But what we learned then: with any sort of repair, it was imperative to follow strictly the procedures in workshop manuals - when trying any shortcut, we paid dearly!
Would you be interested in selling the starter?
Shame , this was a BTD20 whit in deed a diesel RR extremelly rare from the early 60's made for agricultural perpusses (tractor only) if one whant'to know more about it contact Zimmerman tractor of Missourie, they also have old Allis Chalmers fuel thank's of many HD sizes from HD4 to ?