I have had a long time slow cranking issue in cold weather on my JCB 212S. I replaced the starter a couple of years ago with little success. The Battery has been replaced a couple of times and I dont seem to have excessive voltage drop from the cables. The starter I replaced it with was an inexpensive one from ebay. I have heard there is a gear reduction type starter that will fit the 212S and gives a much higher crank speed Does anyone know anything about these and where I could get one? Thanks in advance!
Is there a ground wire from the battery ground to the engine block ? Check all the starter circuit connections for cleanliness and tightness. It may not be a starter issue. What weight oil is in the engine and hydraulic system ?
Try pushing in the black button on the gear shift or loader control while starting. See if that helps. Gear reduction starters are expensive, if you can find one for your machine. I've heard good things about them but never had one. I think our machines have to many solenoids etc that also start when the key is turned to start. Taking power away from the starter, try what I said above and let us know.
What is the voltage drop on the cables?
I checked and cleaned the engige ground mount and starter cable connections I will try the button suggestion but I believe I tried both the gear selector and the loader control clutch buttons. Voltage drop seems negligible. Using a analog type meter I would say less than 1 volt Appreciate the suggestions.
If only cold weather issue, do you have and use any kind of block heater? makes a world of difference up here in the snow covered states...
Which engine do you have?
Hi skata its the perkins SERIAL#AR50696U110088G
Which model? 1004?
if you want a gear reduction starter, you have to cross reference the numbers to see what should fit. Just take the number off the starter on there, search it online, or go to the mahle/iskra/letrika catalog and enter the number. They will have their cross reference, and will have a note, "recommend number xxx gear reduction" then see if you can find "number xxx" or a cheapo copy that crosses to that number.
This. I had a perkins 1004 in my old jcb telehandler. Bought a gear reduction starter off ebay for $100. It started so much easier than the old direct drive.
Thanks Starter number is 714/29500 but thats a JCB number . Is that the number I search or is there another manufacturer number I'm looking for on the body of the starter? Its very hard to access
search that number, it brings up an amazon product with lots of numbers, one of them is a mahle part number MS385. search that number and it brings up https://www.finditparts.com/products/7682289/letrika-ms385 which says "We recommend using the Reduction Gear version IS1378" which brings up lots of knock offs that will probably work fine, or $370 at finditparts. let me know if you find the mahle/iskra/letrika genuine starter for less. https://www.fleetalternatorstarter.com/Starter_51611.aspx genuine for $312 or the copy for $129 https://www.dbelectrical.com/produc...gr-12-volt-cw-10-tooth.html#applications-list
How about this one on eBay? Reduction gear starter for $136 https://www.ebay.com/itm/NEW-GEAR-R...-/224220485186?_trksid=p2349624.m46890.l49292
Delmer and skata really appreciate the assistance. I saw that one skata, I'll reach out to them and see this they know is a good cross fit
Count the number of teeth on your bendix drive. Bad things will happen if your new replacement has the wrong number of teeth !
Good point Tinkerer. Yes they both are clockwise and 10 teeth. I'm more concerned that the flange shape and mounting holes they dont look similar Standard Starter Gear Reduction
Maybe the starter is shown upside down.
woodfirst, The gear reduction has torx head bolts in your pic. More than likely the mounting bolts can be removed and repositioned like the pic of your starter.
Thanks, I ordered it and will give it a shot
Voltage drop with no load should be "none". Same as at battery. Voltage usually drops to 9-10 volts or so at the starter while cranking. Less if connections are bad. Need lots of battery too. Most guys running a car battery, no good for cold weather. Block heater is a must in cold weather. I do not have 110v power so I use a propane Tiger torch to heat the oil pan for 15 minutes. Here is the torch heating up to get lug nuts off. Just hot enough to melt some wax on them. Keep far enough back to not burn paint or boil oil. Goal is warm to the touch. Not smoking. Engine will crank easy and start when it is warm to the touch.
Actually voltage drop is measured in a functioning circuit. What you are describing is measuring potential voltage. This is not voltage drop. Voltage drop is how to find small resistances in high current circuits. When the circuit is not operating measuring voltage does not really tell you much other than you have potential. But you are measuring across an open circuit so if you have corrosion(resistance) this test will not help you determine that. no matter how much resistance is in a circuit you will measure full potential across an open circuit. This is why you measure 12 volts at the starter when not cranking but then when you try to crank you might only have 8 volts at the same points. The resistance comes into play when current is flowing not when it isn't.
Thanks Steve and Edge. Battery load tests out fine and is a 1000cca heavy duty equipment battery I get a drop to approx 9 volts at battery when starting and virtually the same at the starter connections, It was a cheap replacement starter installed approx 3 years ago and has always cranked slow when cold. Thats why I wanted to try a gear reduction starter. Mine is also in a barn with generator power and when cold have always had to plug it into a electric oil pan heater for an hour or
A block heater (coolant) would be a better choice. A synthetic blend 5w-40 engine oil will help too. It did for me.
ya, X2 for the coolant heater. it is more important than an oil pan heater. when using an oil pan heater, it would have to be plugged in for about 5 hrs to actually warm up the entire oil let alone anything higher than that in my opinion. the best is a combination of both and to save power use a timer on the power supply
Agreed, the challenge is its in a shed w/o power 1/4 mile form the nearest power source. Heating it 5 hrs in advance really isn't practical with the generator. Also could not find an easy to fit coolant heater for it. The engine is really stuffed in . Thanks
Where there is a will there is a way. There has to be a place you could mount a tank style coolant heater. Even in the cab. If it has one. A 1500 watt heater will warm that engine very quickly. The coolant doesn't need to be summer time warm either. If you feel brave make a sheet metal enclosure for the lower part of the engine and put a propane weed burner under it.
Small torpedo heater w/generator power if strategically placed would probably work as well...Draws a lot less juice than block heaters if grid power not available.....
Your battery is dropping to 9 volts when cranking? That battery is not good. Get yourself a good battery that won't drop below 10 volts during cranking and you will find your machine starts much better. Gear reduction starters are awesome and if you need to replace a starter I would suggest one. You said it load tests "fine" but then you state the voltage is 9 volts during cranking. That is not fine. What are you using to test the battery? I have found many of these new capacitance battery testers and chargers do not always diagnose a weak battery. The best way is fully charge it, put 1/2 of the CCA of the battery on it as a load for 10 seconds. This removes the surface charge. Then do 50% of the CCA again for 15 seconds and monitor the voltage. if it goes below 10 volts the battery is junk. I have been doing this stuff for 35+ years with automotive and light truck. My experience is the Midtronics battery diagnostic chargers and handheld testers are good but not always 100% reliable. The old school carbon pile works the best.
Thanks Edge, you may be right I have an old school battery load tester with the heating filament and it stays in the green on the scale for the cca when I test it for the prescribed amount of time. In my JCB service manual it states that if(Big if) the battery is good and drops excessively(at the battery) when engaging the starter then the starter is likely faulty.
Is it one of the handheld types looks like a cheese grater? If so, those only load it to about 100 amps. Can you get a vehicle near the machine? If you can, then use jumper cables to connect a second battery for testing purposes. With jumper cables connected and the machine cranking measure the battery voltage. If at 10volts or higher you will know if your starter is working well.
about 25 years ago i got a screaming deal($700 for a 1400$ machine) at a GM dealer closeout auction on a Snap-On digital AVR with manual carbon pile and 24v capacity. i've load tested batteries that failed when the other style testers said they were good. the trouble is that most auto parts stores only use the cheap crappy style to warranty-test batteries
I wanted to post a follow-up to this thread. I ordered the gear reduction starter that Skata found on ebay. Cost was only $136 so although the picture showed iIn a different orientation than the original I figured I would risk it. It did match the original JCB part number. When it arrived I noticed it was half the size and half the weight of the original. Looking at them side by side, I regretted ordering it as it looked way too small. It went in under 5 minutes as it gives much better access to the mounting studs. The only real issue is that the solenoid is orientated toward the right side of the starter body versus above it so I had to lengthen a couple of wires. In terms of performance it was night and day. It spins the engine in 25 degree weather like a summer day. It has never cranked so easily. While the jury is still out on long term performance so far this was a no brainer. Thank you to everyone for their help
I used to have a Jaguar V12. They were notorious for cooking the starters. I replaced the starter with a gear reduction model. It never cranked so fast and started nearly instantly. Amazing how small and light they are and amazing how much power they pack. It is a worthwhile upgrade.
That's good to hear. Since it's a gear reduction starter, it doesn't need such a big motor as the oem direct drive. This is where size Doesn't matter!
Well also these starters use permanent magnets instead of windings so they can be smaller. Combine that with the gear reduction and we have a winner.
Glad to hear this, can you give me your original JCB starter number and the link you got your new starter?
JCB Starter number is 714/29500 Link to Gear reductuion starter: https://www.ebay.com/itm/NEW-GEAR-R...-/224220485186?_trksid=p2349624.m46890.l49292
Ok, thanks, my problem is that my starter number is 714/14300, I have the 1004 Perkins. I don't think this one would fit.
What model and year is your machine? You may want to call your local JCB dealer and see if there is a superceeded number? The pics online look identical to 714/29500
http://catalog.jubana.com/en/starter/123708528 Everything I find says they're the same starter. or get the 4.2kw one that will really start it. https://www.amazon.com/JUBANA-12370...ywords=123708319+jubana&qid=1611080913&sr=8-1 jubana is a European/Baltic manufacturer that is considered worth the money as far as I can tell. Sells direct on amazon so easier to find than mahle/iskra/letrika.
I don't have time to cross reference. But this is the one I bought for my old 506b telehandler that had a perkins 1004. https://www.ebay.com/itm/New-Starte...-/271184139770?_trksid=p2349624.m46890.l49292