Hi fellas, today I was working on a JD 450c dozer that had a blown head gasket, machine is from 1980, I took pics today but haven't down loaded them yet. After pulling the head I noticed that approx 80% of the coolant passages on the block and head were closed up with heavy rust scale. I'm leaning towards the gasket failure due to restricted flow. The unit has 1400hrs on it and the last coolant change was in 2004 from what was listed, my question is this, after I cleane out the ports on the block and the head what do you think I should use to clean out the rest of the block. I have heard of acid based descaler cleaner, but do you think this might make a woese problem if there problems on the liners? I need to have this machine in service by next tuesday for a time sensitive job. I hate to put it back together as I wanted to pressure check with the head on and the oil pan off to see if coolant was pushing through the liners. I can revisit the issue in a couple of weeks even though I have to undue all that new work. ( I know it's stupid, but cust wants it slapped back together for job), Due you think if I descale that it might cause worse issues before they use it? Do you think it would remove all scale too. This would have to be done in chasis. Any suggestions would be appreciated. Thanks
I've never been fond of caustic cleaners in an engine cooling system. If it can cut loose and clean scale, what else is it eating on (seals, rad core). And being a customer machine, even more precarious. If it developed a leak in the rad core a week later, or water pump started leaking a month from now, the customer would likely equate these new problems to the chemical wash out procedure. I think I would show, or at least inform customer of block ports, scrape the ports open, fit the head with new gasket, and thoroughly flush system with water, then fill with coolant and DCA additive. That way if other problems develop, you can make the case that it's nothing that you did, instead it's likely result of existing corrosive problem.
The scale is one thing, and I agree with Willie that something needs to be done about it, but when you can't see down into the depths of the engine do you really want to toss a coin and throw in some extremely caustic chemical that could potentially cause more problems leading to the need for a total engine strip. If I'm brutally honest I would recommend a total engine strip to the customer right now based on what you see around the head area. That way critical parts could be bead blasted or similar to get rid of the scale and reopen the blocked coolant passages. You already touched on what you think caused the head gasket to go in the first place. You're right on in my book, and that's without even seeing photos or the engine itself. So there you have it. If the customer wants the engine buttoned up to do a job I can understand that, the machine makes him money. However I would show him the engine and explain to him EXACTLY what it needs to sort it out correctly, and EXACTLY in my book is nothing less than a full engine tear-down. If he chooses not to follow your recommendations after being shown what's needed he can hardly blame you later if it all goes wrong can he ..? Personally I would junk the glycol-based coolant/SCA filter setup and throw some low-silicate (ELC-type) coolant into it.
The head gasket likely failed from shear deteriation. I would advise customer and then put the new head gasket on (give 'em what they want till it hurts) while trying to disturb as little of this scale as possible. If you break it up then it will really clog things up. And when do get the go ahead to fix it you will need to do it all, head, block, wp, rad.
If it was the original engine head gasket maybe so, although with only 1400 hours (albeit in a space of 30 years) on the engine I find that hard to believe. But the fact that as per the OP's comment that 80% of the coolant passages up through the block were plugged that sure didn't help the situation much either ..........
If the machine was not overheating before the gasket failure, I would document with pictures as you did,pull out the rust with a pick that is in the head and block and flush it out. Install new gasket pressure test and go from there. Not the right way to make it like new, but after all its not new and the customer needs it.
Run dishwasher soap through it for an hour or 2,rinse with clean water and then fill with anitfreeze.
If its that bad in the head, what is the rest of the engine, radiator, water pump and all the rest look like? If its that bad no matter what you do, its not going to cure anything, shy of a complete tear down and rebuild, so however you do it make sure the customer see's it and advises you on what he wants you to do and do just that, what your told, its going to end up being repeat business no matter how its handled today, with either a plugged radiator, shot water pump, overheating, you name it, its bound to happen. If you do as your told and make a point to describe whats about to come, its his call on how its handled today and in the future, take pictures and do some documentation to cover your butt and move on after doing what your told, its not yours and its not really your call to make, only yours to make suggestions, who knows it might turn out alright in the end, he might have a deal going to trade it off or to put a rebuit engine in it, or give him some time to figure out just what to do with it himself. Best of luck
I would do as every mechanic in this situation should do, paperwork and borescope video as far in as possible and a clearly detailed explanation of the internal conditions with a copy of of the video to the customer (keeping a copy for your files) and a waiver that you cannot be held liable for conditions beyond your allowance for repairs(CYA). But that is just what we do to protect our company and our reputation. Good Luck, bigmark234
Hi guys, sorry responding back late. First thanks for all the replies. I had the weekend to think over on what most of you had commented. I was really bothered that the customer was willing to do a half ass job, only to pull back in and repeat those steps and do further work later. I took many pictures and met with the customer monday morning and brought him to the machine where I had it torn down. I also agree with many of you on how this should be done and I relayed that info to the customer and also gave you knowledgeable folks a plug on some of your responses. After meeting for 45min and showing him all that was wrong and what could happen if we were to go his route, he approved the tear down, which will include new liners (pitted), pistons, rings, rod bearings, gaskets, seals, water pump, radiator flush, block flush. Head flush. No chemical wash( thanks willie), valve cleaning, and adjusting, couple of new fittings, injectors checked, new return lines, new grommets for return nuts, new blade cutting edges, LH finial drive seal and sump gasket, full service and lube. I almost refused to do the first scope of work since it wouldn't have been done right, times are tough for many including myself, but for it to have the potential to boomerang me and possible litagation even with all the documentation and pics, it wasn't worth it. I now have over $2000 in parts ordered and should have this wrapped up next week. Thanks again for all the advise. Tom
Apparently the guy wants to keep the machine awhile and once told of his options he quickly figured out it was his cheapest way to go in the long run, excellent job on the presentation of his options, he must have some faith in you or he'd have just opted for a cheap patch job and worried about it later. Sounds like he might be a good long term customer for you in the long run.
Hi guys, Just an update on the job. I pilled all apart and DID find that the liners and to flat aced O rings were pitted. The scale in the wate jackets weren't as bad as I thought, although the scale was significant enough on the block where the top liner square cut seal would tear if not dealt with. I used a cordless drill with an irwin bit extension and a 3/4 sanding drum to follow around the sealing surface to remove the rust build up. Figured it was the best approach and minimized any real metal removal. I transfered rods over to new pistons w/new liners, and installed new rod bearings, BUT I have one small problem. I work alone 95% of the time and I'm having a Bitch of a time installing the o rings into the block solo. Due to they are a little bit larger and must set into the grooves, I get 90 percent around, then it buckles, and then it falls out of place. They reccomend no petroleum products on the o rings, so I'm limited to what I can used for retention. I know I'll soap them when I install the liners, but does have a trick to fitting these w/o help. I took pics on the camera, but can find the cord to the computer. Used the wifes cam, but she's gonna have to down load it for me. Huh I can rebuild heavy equipment, but can't figure out a f#$kn camera Ha Ha. Thanks for all your help, and Happy New Year to all of you. Tom
Can't remember the name but used a pine soap on the "O" rings on Waukesha engine liners came in jar like a salve real heavy but not petroleum based worded real well
Rubber grease - as used in brake cylinder rebuilding - it's not petroleum based.
Nice to hear the positive outcome. The one thing you really need to finish off the job IMO is some decent ELC-type coolant after it's all been rebuilt instead of some cheap SCA & you'll be cooking with gas ....... If the customer jibs on the cost of the coolant then show him these 2 pictures. Both are Cat 3400 cylinder liners from the same customer. One engine used SCA-based coolant and failed at 5400 hours with cooling related problems (cracked head IIRC), the other engine used ELC coolant and was torn down for overhaul at over 10,000 hours. The pics are totally genuine and not Photoshopped in any way.
Nige, please elaborate more on the coolant abbreviations, I'm assuming the ELC type is the pink newer coolant and the other is the old green style, next question I've got is what happens when the new type is put into an older system with only a wash out being done to the system, will it loosen up the old gunk left behind?
ELC (aka Extended Life Coolant) is also known as silicate-free coolant. Generally it is pink or red in colour and tastes "bitter". This type of coolant does NOT contain glycol. SCA (aka Supplemental Coolant Additive) is the additive normally added on a regular basis to glycol-based coolants. Often SCA is contained inside a coolant "filter" that gets changed every so often and the chemical is dissolved into the cooling system. These coolants are often (but not always) green or blue and taste "sweet". From my experiences over the past 10 years with coolants I would not even consider using SCA/glycol-based coolant any more. In fact all our Cummins engines here came with glycol/SCA. We just junked it at the first sign of the trouble in the analysis, generally less than 1000 hours, and flushed with water and refilled with ELC. Problem solved. ELC is more expensive initially but it will last up to 12,000 hours in off-road equipment and 600,000 miles IIRC in on-highway applications. With ELC type coolant you add a liquid "extender" chemical at mid-life of the coolant.
Sorry Randy, I didn't answer your question about changing coolants. If a system using SCA-based coolant is in good condition and you want to change to ELC then usually all it needs is a good flushing with water and the engine run up to temperature with just plain water in it, then drain and fill with ELC. If you have a system of "unknown cleanliness" then I would either wait until you do an engine teardown to change coolants, or use a cooling system cleaner. I've used this type of product before, you can add it to a system with SCA/glycol already in it and continue to run the engine. After a certain amount of time you drain the mixture then flush with water until what comes out of the drain is clean before refilling with ELC.
So is the stuff mixed with anything or dumped in straight and not need to worry about strength of the product? Also then we can take the coolant filters off completely and eliminate them? Your saying its basically a lifetime coolant then, right? At that kind of hours I'd never need to replace it in most of my engines. When is mid life determined? I've sat through a few seminars on the subject but didn't fully understand what was presented or how it related to hours or life expectancy of the coolant. Thanks for the information
All low-silicate coolant (AFAIK) now comes pre-mixed 50/50 with distilled water. You used to be able to get concentrate a few years ago that you could mix yourself (there was even an ASTM spec for it) but so many people ignored the instructions and mixed it with whatever water they could get their hands on that the manufacturers soon quit making it and elected to supply only the pre-mixed variety. It caused more trouble than it was worth. At "mid-life" (see below) the low-silicate coolant needs a "booster shot" of Coolant Extender which is basically a super-concentrated version of the coolant in liquid form that you just take off the rad cap and drop it in. Usual addition is 1-2% of the total system capacity. So if the system total capacity was 25 gallons you would add 1-2 quarts. Yes, you can take the SCA coolant filters off completely and plug the lines. In fact you must NEVER mix SCA-based and low-silicate based coolants. The sales literature I have seen to date is that the coolant is good for 12,000 hours or 6 years in off-road equipment subject to a Level 2 coolant analysis every year and the addition of Coolant Extender whenever the analysis calls for it or at 6,000 hours, whichever comes first. Generally we see our 90+% of our cooling systems making it to 6,000 hours before needing the addition of Extender, but remember that for us 6,000 hours is less than one year's operating. For equipment working just a few hours per week I would not bother with the collant analysis and just drop 2% volume of Extender in after 3 years. Even if I was operating a machine that only did 50 hours a week I would not even consider putting SCA-based coolant in it based on what I've seen when engines are torn down - and if the inside of the engine is like that then the inside of the radiator must be the same way, right .....?? if you want to avoid overheating issues how could you NOT use it..?
After decades of having the old style coolant in and even with a flush, will the new coolant break loose or "clean" the system out and cause problems from that, and if so how do you clean out the system after its been in a while, just dump and flush again and refill with new stuff?
I hit enter before finishing the questions I've got, can you safely mix the different colored coolant that is ELC based or does the color of it matter, I've got a pink or reddish colored in my vehicles and some yellow colored in one machine, is it all the same as long as you don't dump in the green older glycol based stuff in?
http://www.valvoline.com/products/consumer-products/antifreeze-radiator-products/antifreeze/
After reading this thread I am convinced that I am going to quite using plain ole green ethylene-glycol antifreeze. A local retailer has Shell Ultra ELC antifreeze. But, now I am confused because I read the Shell technical data sheet and it says that it is a ethylene-glycol antifreeze. Here is a copy and paste from their data sheet. Technical Data Sheet Shell Lubricants Page 1 of 2 24/03/2009 Shell HD Ultra ELC Coolant-N Pre-Diluted 50/50 Nitrited OAT Extended Life, heavy duty ethylene glycol engine coolant pre-diluted 50/50 and ready to use Shell HD Ultra ELC Coolant-N Pre-Diluted 50/50 is a nitrited extended life ethylene glycol coolant for heavy duty diesel, gasoline, and natural gas powered engines. Shell HD Ultra ELC Coolant-N Pre-Diluted 50/50 contains OAT corrosion inhibitor technology plus nitrite and molybdate. The product is free of amines, borates, nitrates, phosphates and silicates. Shell HD Ultra ELC Coolant-N Pre-Diluted 50/50 provides excellent corrosion protection of HD engines and cooling system components without the use of supplemental coolant additives (SCAs). Shell HD Ultra ELC Coolant-N 50/50 also provides protection of light duty engines making it suitable for use in mixed fleet applications. Shell HD Ultra ELC Coolant-N Pre-Diluted 50/50 is premixed and ready to use. It requires no further dilution. If there is a non glycol ELC antifreeze then I would rather use the brand Nige has had a good experience with. I was very impressed and convinced with his photo comparison of the two cylinder sleeves.
Randy, I've never seen a system that was converted from SCA to ELC that has dumped massive amounts of scale, etc after the change. However there's always a first time. As I mentioned above generally on "problem" engines the change of coolant was always combined with an engine rebuild and an internal radiator descale, so large amounts of debris were not expected. The ELC-type coolant are supposedly good for 12,000 hours or 6 years, so why would you want to throw a coolant away just because it is contaminated with a bit of scale..? Apart from that the coolant is not cheap. What we have for draining coolant is a "recovery unit", basically a 100-gallon tank on wheels into which we drain the coolant if we want to work on a machine. The unit has an air pump and a filter system on it so that the coolant gets filtered as it is pumped back into the system after whatever repairs we've done. Obviously it's easy for us because we only have one brand of coolant in every machine in our fleet. According to most manufacturer's data sheets I've seen you can mix any similar product up to 25% of total system capacity with their product. Above 25% and they recommend (note not insist) to drain the whole lot and refill 100% with one product or the other. You have to take a bit of care because just to complicate the issue some ELC coolants contain nitrites (typically 500ppm) and others are nitrite-free. Mixing the 2 types of product is not recommended. Tinkerer. In answer to your questions I have no experience with the particular Shell product you posted above so I can't advise how it would perform either good or bad. Maybe I was not correct about ELC/OAT/low-silicate coolants not containing glycol in all cases. The Shell product meets Cat EC-1 spec (among others) and that is the same spec for the coolant used in the pictures of the cylinder liner on the previous page that looks like new but has 10,000+ operating hours on it. Therefore by my definition it is an ELC despite the fact it contains glycol. My personal experience of Heavy Duty ELC/OAT/low-silicate coolants is basically 3 brands. Caterpillar ELC (available from your local friendly Cat Dealer), Mobil Delvac Heavy Duty 50/50 premix Extended Life Coolant, and an ELC known as Final Charge from a company called Old World Industries who may sound a bit like a Mon & Pop operation but in actual fact manufacture ELC for most of the major brand names including Mobil & Cat. Go figure ............ I would hazard a guess that the Shell product is most likely manufactured by OWI. http://www.oldworldind.com/heavy_duty_products.htm Stan, out of all the Valvoline Products in your link the Zerex Extended Life Antifreeze/Coolant (black container on the top line) is the Heavy-Duty diesel engine ELC.
Nige, by definition of the antifreeze on stan's download its a "virgin ethylene glycol based antifreeze" with the 12,000 hour or 6 year protection, not to be smart but isn't that the same as a green antifreeze? I asked this same question to my local supplier and he said, good question, and didn't know the difference between that or the cheaper green stuff, and for the different colors he said put the same color back in and didn't know any of the differences between them all. He read the jugs and said it sounded like a fancy way to say the same thing, he called it double terms for the same base ingredients, not to be smart but whats right? Can you have a glycol based elc coolant? On the seminars I sat through this is the area where I got lost and wasn't given a real good explanation, can you clarify it for me?
Randy. Unfortunately I can't give you a definite answer, much though I would like to. Up to today I always thought that ELC/OAT/low-silicate coolants contained no glycol, then the details of the Shell product are posted and it contains glycol but is allegedly classed as an ELC. One specification I know can only be met by an ELC is Caterpillar EC-1. If a data sheet of a coolant shows that the product meets Cat EC-1 specification then it has to be an ELC. Of the products recently discussed on here the following all meet Cat EC-1 spec. Valvoline Zerex Extended Life Anti-Freeze Coolant Mobil Delvac Extended 50/50 Life Coolant OWI Final Charge Shell HD Ultra ELC Coolant-N Pre-Diluted 50/50 as mentioned above meets SOME of the Cat EC-1 specs but not all of them. That might have some relation to the fact it contains glycol but I am not sure of that. I checked on some manufacturer's listings I have and NOT a single ONE of the green coloured coolants is listed as being an ELC. All are regarded as "conventional" coolants using SCA technology. Interestingly all of them are also regarded as Light Duty coolants, in other words not suitable for use in machines and equipment engines. All the pink coloured coolants on the list are classed as Heavy Duty coolants but all of them still use SCA technology. There is one exception to this - Fleetguard Fleetcool that uses 'Hybrid OAT technology". Without exception ELC-type coolants using "OAT technology" are all either yellow, orange, or red in colour.
Thanks Nige, I am am using the john deere Cool gardII. I beleive that has the same properties you discuss.. Well all that fussing on the o rings and discovered that although the pistons, rings, and liners were all the right part numbers out of the box, the liner o rings I struggled with were from a 6 cylinder and not a 4cyl. I guess the guy at the factory grabbed from the wrong bin. New ones cam in yesterday, and finished up the engine part of the job. Now starting new rear sprockets, final drive seals/gaskets and new sprokets.
I'm not an authority on the subject, but to my knowledge pretty much all automotive antifreeze is either ethylene glycol or propylene glycol base, propylene glycol being the non-toxic type. I just don't understand why we have made antifreeze rocket surgery. Is it so hard to find something that works and make the stuff? Why do we have to have so many different versions that may or may not mix with each other. It appears somewhere along the line we have lost the "KISS" principle.
For Randy and others, I have found it depends on manufac wether you can mix or not. In the case with Deere, they reccomend to flush, use the fleet gard Restor then, double rinse with fresh water, then fill. One of the things I use is the coolant test strips, which measure boil point, alkalinity, Ph, freeze point. Similar to pool water strips, the alkalinity/Ph is the big ones. That was the case with my customers machine That caused the liners to pit and rot it out. I use coolant conditioner from deere in the other machines. Also the 50/50 pre mix is the way to go.
Nige, Thanks for taking the time to help sort out the facts on anti-freeze. It is a product we all use and, I think we should know as much as we can about it. I was able to find out a another interesting piece of info about OAT technology anti-freeze. I assume the statement is true. If it is true then I would not want to use it in my old machine because of the solder in the radiator. Here is a copy and paste of the statement (OAT stands for Organic Acid Technology. Some organic acids can be used as corrosion inhibitors instead of the traditional inorganic inhibitors, like nitrites and silicates. OAT antifreeze should only be used in newer vehicles designed for its use. Organic acids actually attack the lead solder used in the radiators of older model vehicles.) I have a lot of interest in this thread because my T/L/B has new cylinder liners and my radiator has a new core.
Tinkerer. You're correct. OAT-type coolant cannot be used in cooling systems containing lead - typically lead solder in a radiator. I'm so used to wkirng with "modern" machinery with radiator cores that seal with rubber seals it's something that I had forgotten TBH.
Alright, its getting confusing again for my simple mind, 90% of my engines are old enough to contain lead or solder of some sort. Automobiles have different needs than diesel engines do and now we toss in the discussion of lead and those components. So if I do the math that means I'll need about five different antifreezes for my trucks, equipment and vehicles and cars, and newer engines. I'll agree with willie59 on this one, what happened to idiot proof and simple, this is getting as bad as engine, transmission, final drives, hydraulic and other oils needed to have on hand, the lat time I counted those I had over 20 weights, grades, and types of oil to run in equipment and trucks, what ever happened to standardized stuff, it almost takes one full time person to keep track of all this stuff for me so I don't put the wrong stuff in the wrong machine. So where does oat technology come in for antifreeze? what color is that and how does it compare to the newer yellow antifreeze we've been talking about? Seriously I'm lost with all the abbreviations and I can't be the only one who is reading this thread that's confused. Please put up some sort of "cheat" sheet to simplify this stuff for us simpletons. Thanks in advance.
Like Wille59 stated why can't antifreeze mfrs. KISS. I guess the color of antifreeze doesn't really accurately indicate what you have according to the Filter Manufacturers Council. Here is part of one of their service bulletins in regards to the color of antifreeze. Technical Service Bulletin 05-2R1 / The Color Of Antifreeze Organic Acid Technology (OAT) was the first LLC/ extended life coolant introduced in North America in 1994. OAT can be either EG or PG but is mostly EG based. Its first dye colors were orange and red. These dye colors are still used by General Motors and Caterpillar. Green, pink and blue have been added to the list of available OAT antifreezes. It is recommended that OAT not be mixed with any other antifreeze technology. The normal OAT antifreeze sevice life is 150,000 miles. If anyone would like to read the bulletin in depth here is the web link. http://www.aftermarketsuppliers.org/Councils/Filter-Manufacturers-Council/TSBs-2/English/05-2R1.pdf Randy88; If I interpret the information in the bulletin correctly the different types of antifreeze can be mixed. But apparently it shortens the life of the ELC stuff. If anyone reads the bulletin I would like to read your thoughts on it.
I will try to find the list I have but there is no guarantee it is 100% complete or 100% current. However to summarize what I remember from that list ......... I'll use SCA to define what I would call "conventional" coolants and ELC to describe coolants that use OAT. Green dye generally signifies an SCA-type Light duty antifreeze. The type of product you would use in your car, or pickup truck. Yellow dye generally signifies an SCA-type Heavy Duty antifreeze. This type of product you would use in on on-highway diesel engine or an earthmoving machine. Orange & Red dyes generally signify ELC-type antifreeze/coolant. This type of product could be used in both light & heavy vehicles & earthmoving machines. There are also pink & blue colours, but I'd be lying if I said I could remember 100% what group they fall into. I'll double check on Monday & post again.
Thanks guys, nige, you did a good job of a simple easy to understand format that makes sense.
Hello Guys, It appears(sounds like) that this engine may have been run with straight water during some time in it's life. My brother had purchased a Farmall Super WD-9 tractor that had been used for plowing, and fitting ground in the spring, or fall, and then drained for the winter. He tore it down, because of a cracked liner. The block, head, and everything that had been wet, was coated with a thick coating of iron and lime scale. The radiator went to a shop for a hot tank cleaning. A pint of muriatic acid, added to a partial fill of water started to boil the iron back to a satiny silver finish. Grease all of the machined faces to prevent an acid corrosion. This process might take 2-3 fills to complete the process. As the foam subsides, add more water. Let it cook for several hours, then drain, rinse with clear water. Repeat the cycle untill you like the color. The biggest challenge is to get the loose scale and "mud" out of the block etc. Muriatic acid is a dilute form of hydrochloric acid. As a toolmaker, I had used it on many occasions to clean the cooling lines of plastic molds. The word acid scares many people, but if adequate safety precautions are taken, and the MSDS instructions are followed, this can be a relatively safe venture. Regards, Bob
My apologies for not following up on my chart as promised above ........ here it is. This list may not contain all possible brands but it does appear to include all the major ones at least. Not sure if it's 100% readable but if not PM me and I'll e-mail a full-size copy.