Hello all, This is my first post, but have been reading for a while now. I recently bought an '83 John Deere 510b, turbo diesel. Recently I've been loading up my oil with fuel. I was told first to replace transfer pump, which I did, but this did not correct it at all. Is my next step to mess with the injection pump or is there something else I should look at first? I'm not really a mechanic, but I can get by in the garage. Any suggestions/help would be appreciated. This is my first machine so this is all a learning experience. Just hopefully not an expensive one! Thanks, Brian
If it turns out to be injection pump problem, will probably be between 300 to 600 dollars to rebulid.
Is this the injection pump you have?
Should be a DB2 on there.Shaft seal isn't much of a big deal to have replaced.
I'm not sure if that is the injection pump or not ATCOEQUIP. I haven't pulled anything apart yet. But do you think the injection pump is my problem? Recently the rpm's have been fluctuating pretty bad, when ran at full idle, 2200 it jumps up and down, sometimes enough to stall it. Guy I bought it from said remove fuel line from transfer pump and blow out line. This does seem to help, as if there is something in the tank plugging it. Anyways, this fuel issue is really frustrating me! Would there be any other reason now besides the injection pump for fuel in the oil? Thanks, B
Well typically, injection pumps can be rather expensive to repair or rebuild. But I looked at the parts pages and it showed a Roosa Master pump like I posted above. If that's the pump you have, there are two shaft seals that will leak fuel into crankcase if they go bad. Very easy, and inexpensive, to repair. The two seals are item #5 in this pic.
Now you are talking of two problems. Diesel in oil is probability injection pump front seals. Running erratic, if it is a roosamaster (or alias standadyne), good probability fuel return out of top of pump is pluging. This fitting on top of pump has a check valve in it and needs attention. Try running engine with this fitting off for a short time to see if erratic running goes away. Wont loose much diesel but put a catch pan under pump while running.
I haven't tried that before Iron@Dirt, so I don't know, but I was thinking the spring loaded check valve has to be in place to create required pressure inside the injection pump to feed the head. Without the check valve, there would be a loss of pressure inside injection pump. Just a thought.
Too much back pressure on these pumps (if it is a roosamaster pump)causes engine to surge (surge being a key simptom) and eventually stall. They usually restart later but problem progressively gets worse. Very simple to try.
These pumps I have worked on have fuel level above pump. If fuel is lower it might syphon back to tank. If this is the case keep primer going while line is open.
Ok I'll look into these seals. Guess I'm gunna have to buy a repair manual! Not to sure where the injection pump is located yet, will do some searchin this weekend. Is the check valve external? And Thanks for all your help so far guys!
Bwar77, you said in post #5 that you could remove the fuel line from lift pump and blow back into tank, and that seemed to make it run better for a spell. If that's the case, you may have some trash in the fuel tank, not an uncommon problem. I can't remember if Deere put a good size drain on the bottom of that tank, probably not easy to get to if they did. I know the fuel supply petcock is on the bottom of the tank. Something you can do very quickly to check if the tank has water/dregs on the bottom of the tank is use the suck bucket. Read the thread at this link down to post #20 to make a hose to check what's on bottom of tank. You might even want to consider running it very low on fuel so you can look down in the tank through filler neck with flashlight and see if there's anything in the bottom. I've seen rags, sticks, plastic bags, all kinds of debris in tanks. After you check the things Iron@Dirt suggest, and if you determine you are going to have to remove the injection pump to replace those shaft seals, it's not a big job to do. If it's possible, it would be nice to wash the motor, not a good thing to break into an injection system that's covered with crud. The first thing to do is turn of the fuel petcock at the bottom of tank. And if your fuel tank has a lot of fuel in it, you may need to disconnect the fuel return line at #4 injector where return line goes back to tank to prevent siphoning when you disconnect return line from injection pump. Disconnect the fuel supply line to injection pump, the return line, and the injection lines. You will probably have to remove these lines because they will most likely interfere with removal of pump, it's not a good idea to bend these lines to make clearance to remove pump. If you take lines loose where they connect to injectors, be sure to use two wrenches so you don't twist the pipe connnected to injectors. Disconnect the fuel shut off linkage and the throttle linkage. Pull the throttle lever all the way back to full throttle and tie it back with tie wire, now your ready to remove pump. Make marks with a small chisel or center punch where pump mounting flange meets timing gear cover so when you go to re-install pump you can put it back in the exact location it was before removal. Remove the three mounting nuts that mount the pump. Pull the pump straight back, pulling it off the pump drive shaft. Once you have removed the pump, you will see the seals on the pump drive shaft.
Something I forgot to mention, the fuel line going into injection pump head could have a screen below the elbow fitting. Remove elbow and check for debris. Atcoequip is correct, you must have a direction. start at the tank and work your way to injection pump checking each part for flow.
Yep, fuel problems...start at the tank and work your way to injection pump. That's usually the method. And if that pump is dumping fuel in crankcase, more than likely those shaft seals. Common failure, easy fix.
there was a screen, pencil screen, at tank port that feeds transfer pump. The umbrella seals that Atco showed reference to are easily replaced, but if there is a groove in bushing inside body of injection pump it is very easy to roll the seal when installing pump body back on to shaft, the shaft stays with the engine and pump body is pulled away from it. My advise get more than the 2 required seals and lube them up well. Good Luck.
Great advice fellas..2 more things..IF the "pilot tube" is grooved where the seals ride, dont waste the time/oil putting new seals on without replacing the tube, it has to be replaced..9 x outta 10 if the "rubber" seals have cut into a "brass" tube..Its time for a pump o/h...and some serious attention to fuel/oil filters.. and you can buy drive shaft seal installers from the pump shop, one is a "tapered tube" to slide the seals onto the shaft w/o stretching them and the other is a "scissor type" tool that compresses the seals, so they wont roll when you slip the dr.sh. into the pilot tube. Let me know if I can help further..
Well, the pump guy is still around. Ever worked on a Zexel electronic governer pump on a Mitsubishi 6D24? Took one off a Kobelco SK480 on Friday and took to pump shop. I expect it to get a bit expensive.
I havent personally, but the shop I work for has..Lots of special tooling required. I sure hope the shop you took it to is factory trained AND authorized..or you'll be pulling that "beast" off again.. {no fun} I'v done the electronic Bosch and Denso pumps, just not the Zexel.
Pump seals replaced, but.... Hey Guys - I finally got around to replacing the pump seals. not a bad job at all! Took me about 1 1/2hrs to get it done, and managed to get the seals in rather quickly. I drained the fuel from the tank, got some crud out, and refilled with new fuel. Everything went great! I finally hopped in, crossed my fingers and started it. After a few cranks it fired right up. I hopped out to clean up some tools, and after about a minute of running it shut right down. i jumped in, fired it up, but it would not run. I would turn over and make the attempt, but would not run. Frustrated, I let it sit for a few days. Hopped in today, and all it would do is turn over..... Any suggestions? My alignment marks on the pump lined right up, not sure if that would have anything to do with it. It just seems as if its not getting fuel. How should i check for this? and also,Iron@dirt, from the pump pic that is posted, which is the check valve? Thanks for all the help so far.... couldn't have got this far without you guys!
Check filters after you disrupt the tank like that, you can dislodge some stuff in the tank.
i did check the filters today, seem to be fine. I checked the big filter after the transfer pump, and i checked the screen filter where the line goes into the injection pump. All clear....
You always have to start by checking that you have fuel delivery to the injection pump and go from there. You did remember to turn on the fuel petcock at tank, right? I've done that soooo many time, even did it a week ago on a 320BL. LoL. BTW, you're still coming out fairly well, that electronic Zexel I just had rebuilt for the Mitsu 6D24 engine came to a ticket for around 4 grand! Geezzzzz. :tong
REMOVE the return fitting completely, from the top of the pump.. Start engine..you might just have a clogged return line.?? Reinstall return circuit pieces, one piece at a time, while engine is running.. return fitting w/check ball then the hard line.. if it keeps running when you install the return fitting and shuts-off when you install the hard line, you have a blockage inside the line going back to the tank.. If it shuts-off when you install the return fitting, check for a stuck checkball.. Good Luck and let us know what you find and we can go further if needed..
The return check valve is the (first)straight fitting coming out of the top of the top cover. When you pull it you will see a clear plastic valve and spring in it. From what you said in last post, you could still have issue with air, crack injector lines and check for fuel with check valve out.