Still looking for insight from you guys. Wondering what others that have operated/owned these machines have to say about the pros and cons of each. I know, I know....some guys have strong preferences for each so let me have it. I'm looking for one to use reclaiming overgrown farm and ranch land. Not trying to make a living with it, just needs to be dependable as I am not a heavy equipment mechanic by any means. I can deal with making adjustments, changing hoses and routine maintenance, but do not have the tools or skills to do major repairs. From what I can tell, this size (~80hp) machine seems to be fairly prevalent and light enough for me to mobilize if needed. Let me know y'alls thoughts folks...I'm listening!
Which d4, a 550g will hold its own with a d4c or g, but a d4h or simular hightrack will eat it. Is the 550 the usual direct drive model, they take some gettin used to but are more powerfull than a torque converted model. For me it would come down to dealer suport, machine overall condition, and price. Both are leaders of the pack in the small dozer market, personally I think a d5c/g compares better against a 550g, but I'm biased, I like me deere.
Never had either but I do have a D31P-20 Komatsu LGP. Absolutely love it. I may sell it in the near future cause I'm bout done with it. It's gona be hard to part with it that I can guarantee and I may just keep it.
I hear that...dealer support seems to be one of the most important things to consider while shopping for this equipment. I'm not against Komatsu, I have a skid steer by them that has always done what I asked of it. There just seem to be more used JDs and Cats for sale. Are the high track cats that much more productive? Thanks for the info....
Anybody know what areas of the US have the best prices on these types of dozers? I'm in Texas, but not opposed to getting one shipped if it is the right deal. Looking at Machinery Trader, Equipment Trader and Ebay, there seem to be more for sale in other parts of the country. Let me know what y'all think.
I think the equipment prices in Michigan are low, not sure what the rest of the country is doing. You can go to richie bros. and look through past auctions to get an idea of prices in different parts of the country. Shipping can be pretty expensive, but I assume you already know that. I don't think the high track makes a machine more productive. I thought it was a more compact drive, easier to work on, easier on the drives as they are out of the dirt, and less wear on the rest undercarriage. There is some dispute to the last point as the track is longer (more expensive), more bends in the tracks (but they are not as acute as a flat track). You also have a little better visibility of the blade being that your higher. Tom
Nice! I never knew there was so much information available on the Richie Bros website. Good way to get an idea of what's selling for how much, although there is not much information about the condition or history of the items. Anyone have experience buying from these guys or similar auctions? bout the only thing I ever bought at an auction was cattle...
Yeah, I've bought quite a bit of stuff from them and other auctions. There's one coming up a week after next in Ft Worth. You owe it to yourself to go to it even if you don't buy. You can learn a lot by talking to other folks there who are looking at equipment that you're interested in. Just ask. That's what I did when I first started. You'll get a straighter answer than from some salesman trying to sell you a piece... Now, you will see some junk there too. You will also see some junk that has a brand new Ritchie Bros. paint job. But you can find a nice original piece there also. You can meet the representative from Ritchie Bros. that services your area. That should be David Hillburn for you. He's a great resource for any questions you have. He gets a paycheck regardless, so he doesn't have an agenda to sell you anything; and he's seen thousands of dozers come thru the auction. I bet that when you bought those cattle at the used cow sale (say hi to Dale McKinney at the Dublin sale barn if you see him) they didn't come with a warranty or condition guarantee either(ever bought a cow that was 6 months bred and calved the week after you got it or the other way around?). You just gotta educate yourself and then pull the trigger. I have found that a lot of equipment for sale around here by private treaty (in newspapers and on Craigslist) can be grossly misrepresented (most of the time unknowingly) and way over priced; as in "My grandad left me this tractor and he said it has 85% UC and is worth $25000". Or some family friend or expert has told them it's worth X amount when in reality it's a parts tractor in both situations. I find that a lot.
Reason a high track 4 will out work a deere 550 is pure horsepower and weight, and the cat wins both by like 10-20 hp and 6,000 lbs I believe. Has nothing to do with the high drive.
Yeah, I agree with stumpjumper83. I forgot to mention that in my earlier post. Those high track 4's and 5's are not even in the same class as the oval tracked 4's and 5's and can't be compared. They're a way different animal.
Thanks for the clarification. I knew there must be something other than a few more links in the tracks cause the prices tend to be quite a bit more for the high tracks. d9- You must be closer than I thought. I'm about 8 miles down the road from Dale's salebarn...
Skid Shear, Yeah, I'm west of Waco. I'd be about 60 miles from you. Hope you get rained out today. We got nearly 3 inches over 4 days here. Beats the hell outta last year! Maybe it'll keep raining and I won't have to clean any stock tanks out this year. I got my fill of them last year. Did somewhere around 200-250 of them. I like it about as much as pushing cedars in August. Some landowner's always got to have that brilliant idea. That's a winter job...
No Fair! Get out there and blow those clouds towards Hico. I can't really complain though, I had a great spring which brought the bluestem on...course it also brought out weeds that I have not seen in years. Amen to the winter clearing...I try to gently persuade them to wait till September. Man, that's lots of tanks...2-3/day?
I didn't realize that there was a 5 ton difference between a d4c and the d4h. You learn something new everyday. Tom
Somebody tell me how much an equipment hauler can carry without a permit...I pulled dry vans for years and we could carry ~48K and still be legal, but I'm not familiar with hauling heavy equipment. Thanks
I think it's still 80K gross. When you get above that, you have to get an overweight permit. Like on our 4 axle truck and 3 axle trailer, you're already at 44K empty. So to haul a D8, you have to have one worth about 130K. I think they give you 36 hours to get it done. I have heard of secretaries putting down a vague description on the overweight permit, like "Cat Bulldozer"...and the D8 goes first and the D9 goes a few hours later. I would never do that to TxDOT. That's unthinkable and just wrong in this economy.
That does seem very wrong. Tom
Knot headed secretaries, I go to all the trouble of giving them a detailed description with dimensions...and what do they hear? Blah, blah, blah "Cat bulldozer, got it."
Darn those office workers! So is ~44K empty weight typical for equipment haulers? Meaning that he can haul a piece of equipment w/o a permit if it weighs <36K?
I think that's the case. That's with a big trailer though, like a 3 axle detachable. My Mack and old Hyster 25 ton trailer don't weigh but 28K empty. I can haul a D7F or D7G with a ripper pretty easy. With my night time permit it will go more. You know how confusing it can get. One of the haulers on here can steer you straight on that. Wait a couple of days for an answer on this topic and if you don't get one you may have to start a new topic on it. By the way, I sent that rain your way. You should be gettin it just about now. Good luck.
with a 550g lgp, a standard deere 650g, cat d4 & 5 lgp's, and at least the d5h/n your going to be overwidth with the blade on to move without permit. 8'6" is the magic number. I think a standard deere 450, 550, cat d4/5 c,g,k - the flat track models you will be fine for width. I know just one more wrench to throw at you, but its weight and width that make you get permits.
Here's a good looking 1998 D4C in Ft Worth at Ritchie Bros. auction. Here's the link: http://http://www.rbauction.com/1998-caterpillar-d4c-series-iii?invId=3455132&id=ci Disclaimer: No I don't have any financial ties with Ritchie Bros. auctions, nor do I receive any commissions. Dang it.
Maybe you're a Deere fan: http://www.rbauction.com/1996-john-deere-550glt?invId=3449770&id=ci Anyway, there's a couple for you to look at if you make it there. I can guarantee there will be more by sale day as there's always latecomers.
Stepped away for a few days... Stumpjumper- good point on the weight AND width consideration. I was bidding on a JD 750 that was too far way...thankfully I was not the high bidder! D9- Thanks for the pics, those are nice looking machines but I'm not going to be able to make the sale this month. I've been sniffing around on the web and am finding the JDs to be a little more prevalent and priced better than the Cats. I know that each individual machine needs to be evaluated on its own, just a trend that I have noticed. From what I can tell, the 550g and the D5c seem to have comparable specs. Can y'all tell me some differences in these 2 dozers...ease of operation (both foot steer)? blade controls, reliability? company support? maintenance access? anything else to consider? Another thing- anybody have experience using uShip to book equipment transportation? I've solicited bids for several pieces to get an idea of rates, seems to be a decent source of information... Thanks again for your insight..
I would run from anything that was repainted at an auction.
Even if the price is right?
I run a D4C II and could not be happier. It is a '93 with all mechanical levers, no buttons or electronics. Never had a problem with it. 6 way blade. What a great pusher. I am spreading hammered rock with it now- just to save wear on the big excavator pushing rock. It is a great dresser. In fact, the grousers are so worn that I hardly leave any marks on the fine material when I grade. Just make sure to check track tension regularly and add grease to adjust track to proper tension. Had a worker drop the track off the idler 2 times already because he did not check track tension after pushing heavy hammered rocks all day. Found the master link- rosebud flame to impact off bolts and reset tracks.
Ouch Terminator...and so easily avoided with proper maintenance... What are y'alls thoughts on foot steer vs levers? The few that I have rented have had either foot steer or hydro if memory serves me. I'm not really considering hydro due to cost, so it's either foot or hand...pros and cons?
The joy stick steering on the D 39 's realy handles well, but it can jerk some when you go back to center while slipping a track. Overall good control.
IMO the Cat is a bit better quality than the Deere and it is reflected in the resale price (you will benefit from this as well, if you ever decide to sell). IMO the Cat U/C will outlast the Berco U/C on the Deere. In most cases you will have better support than the Deere, with Cat. I'm not trying to start a war here, it's just how I see it. The G model Deere will have an accelerator pedal vs the decelerator pedal on the Cat. I recommend the XL version on the Cat. I don't recall if Deere had the XL version in the G model or if it was introduced in the H series. I was also going to point out that Cat started offering the Hystat with the later C series. You have stated cost limitations so you are not going to consider those. Too bad. I recently did a job with a D5G and was amazed at how steep I could push up the stock pile, while turning to boot, with that little dozer. I could not see getting that done with a clutch/brake steer unit. Maybe the C model Cat is old enough that you could get one at a good price. I can't really say if I prefer the hand steer vs the foot steer accept that, for me, I find I have more precise control with my hands. I am also not real savvy on the specs but I thought that the 550 was more compatable to the D4 (actually somewhere between the 3 & 4). I was talking to the Deere salesman on Tuesday (about small dozers no less) and he stated the the D5 is best compared to a 700 Deere. I know he was refering to new machines but does the 550G compare to the new 550 (H, J, or K, take your pick) or the 700?
I think DGODGR is comparing the CAT to a Case dozer as DEERE does not have an accelerator pedal but a decelerator pedal like a CAT. As far as I know they have never had an accelerator pedal. I have owned and operated DEERE dozers from the 450b series through the J series. I have always found the quality and support for DEERE to be at least as good as if not better than CAT. This is from first hand experience not hear say
My dozer has the foot steer. When I train up a new worker for the D4C II dozer, I ALWAYS make them keep their right foot at the decelerator pedal and ONLY to use their left foot to steer. I NEVER want them to fall into the car driving habit of using the right foot for gas pedal/ brake pedal. I tell them the decelerator is the 'Brake" - and they must always be ready to 'brake' the heavy machine if they are too close to a ledge/ hole/ other heavy equipment, etc. The workers that have a natural affinity to heavy equipment do well. After a short time I watch them sitting back rocking on the dozer working the blade and F/R and are quite comfortable with the right foot / left foot rules. I did have one guy though that was freaked out that the bulldozer does not have a 'brake' like in a car. I tried to tell him you cannot 'brake' a bulldozer like you can an automobile- different gearing, power, etc. He never could get around the fact that if he only thought of the decelerator as a 'brake' he would be fine. I was told by another worker that when I was not around, he would never use the bulldozer to spread rock. Instead he kept using my big 325 excavator to push rock. My diesel costs were very high when I had him employed.
Yes I have run Case dozers as well but I thought the G series Deeres had the accelerator pedal. I'm specifically thinking of the 550G that I used last (belonged to someone I shared yard space with back in CA). That was about 15 years ago so maybe my memory is not serving me well. BTW the 550G, pictured in a post above, is a LT (Long Track) model. This is similar to Cat's XL model. Both have a bit longer U/C and I think it's better than the standard track length. As far as dealer support, that will always be a case by case scenario (which is why I said usually and not always or simply is ), but that opinion was based on my experience in two different states (big city and small town) and two dealerships of each of the subject brands. You can always add in what I've heard (which is similar to my experience) but my opinion is also with first hand experience. I certainly would not say that the Deere support that I have had (I do currently own a 544J loader) has been poor. Far from it. It's just not quite the same as what I have received from the Cat dealers I've dealt with.
deere's didnt have fuel pedals untill at least thru "c" model machines. They were controlled by a lever on the dash only. At some point between c & g a decel pedal was added. Never seen a deere with an accelerator pedal, seen case's and newhollands with them. Internation harvester put the decel under the left foot. I like cats and deeres equally in units after the cat c's and deere e's. For what I do the cat 4&5 high are unecessarily tall, would prefer a flat track. After the d6 size I'm all cat but the small and medium deeres are excelent machines
We have a komatsu D37p, Deere 650G WT, Cat D5m xl, And a deere 750B. In there element there each the best. When fine grading or spreding topsoil I love the 650G, direct drive and fast and smooth hydrolics make for nice easy work. When it comes to hard pushing or grading hard or rocky soil the cat wins hands down. Much heavyer and more power realy makes this machine shine. The d37p damb near floats on water. Pushing mud with this machine is almost fun (I HATE mud). It also makes a rookie almost look like a pro. Deere made to different tranny models in the G series. A TC (torqure converted) or DD (direct drive). I perfer the DD models, they move a little slower in first and seem to me to push a little better. I my be wrong but I've been told that the 650 deere is the best in that weight class. This came from a oldtime diehard cat guy and a komatsu nut. Said there respective companies build the best above and below but for a 100hp dozer deere wins.
I looked at a 650G and it defiantly had a decelerator. Terminator- I like your idea of using left foot to operate both steering peddles. Never thought about that. The few time that I have rented a dozer, I never got accustomed to using the decelerator. I was not doing any grading, just pushing trees. Can someone give me a quick and dirty comparison of the TC vs DD? Can you have a reverser with DD? How can you tell when you get on the machine? I'm going to look at a 93-94 model 550G next week. Seller claims that it had an out of frame rebuild ~50 hours ago and the undercarriage was also rebuilt recently. Any tips on how to confirm that these have indeed been done? He also mentioned SALT chains? I this something that unusual on this model dozer? What else should I focus on? What are you guys opinions on fluid analysis? What can you learn from this? Any and all tips are appreciated!
Ok, i own a 550g, mine is a real early one, w/ full forestry. Love the machine. tc vs. dd... Its a preference issue. Here is how they work, from an operators standpoint. The direct drive models do not come to a full and complete stop unless the transmission is in neutral or the motor stalls. Just stepping on the decel will slow the machine and if you have something in front of the blade it may stall, but power is being aplied to the tracks. As for foreward / reverse, they operate the same. depress decelerator while coming into neutral on the trans, come to a stop however momentary, slide the trans back into the opposite direction and let the decel out. directs and t/c trans are the same in that regards. Where you may notice or appreciate a tc trans is when your stumping, the torque converter will smooth out your attack on the stump. When I go after stumps with my direct i use my clutch, its the tiny pedal on the far left side. I use that to modulate the power applied. In reality while a 10 ton dozer can remove a tree stumps alot of other machines with work better. Where you will appreciate a direct drive is when your using the tractor to its full potential bulking dirt around. They seem to have more power than a tc tractor and handle a full blade better. It comes down to preference. For me the only time I'd prefer a tc model is if im fine grading behind curb or topsoiling around a house or simular tight grading situations. Actually I don't even like a dozer at all for fine grade around a house, I'd rather be on my ctl70.
Thanks Stumpjumper- That's a good description...sounds similar to the difference between a auto and manual transmission in a pickup. So I should be able to tell immediately by whether or not there is a foot peddle on the left...yes? Are both transmissions still available is this sized dozer?
im not sure, i think the tc models still have a clutch pedal, a better test is decelling completely in second, or looking at the stickers, the tc models are the rare ones and they are usually identified by the model being 550g tc and so forth. The the best of my knowledge the g's were the last of the direct drive deere, the h's are hydrostatic along with everything after.
The guy tells me that this one is DD, so it should have a clutch peddle on the left. Gonna try to check it out next week. It's ~20K as it sits with out-of-frame rebuild, new UC, and repaired or replaced hydraulic bushings and seals as needed...AND new paint. I know that many of you folks say to run from one with new paint, but they can't all be bad deals. What should I be looking for? Any areas in particular that one would try to cover up with paint? I'm listening...
What would you be looking for on repainted dozer? Any areas in particular that you guys have run across where something was hidden under new paint? Whether intentionally or not, I'd still like to know..
Looking at any piece of heavey eq.I do like a painted unit.Just as with any units a complete inspection is requried.New paint doesen,t cover anything up if anything it uncovers wear items,oil leaks and welds.It is cleaned up before paint.Always run a machine and while the hr. meter might mean something people seem to have a habit of changing them.This is obvious in a low houred loose machine. I would not buy a dozer that is not a LT as it does make it a little better in finsh work.I also would not buy one with a total wore out under carrage unless it is very cheap.On resale usally no problem selling weltaken care of units but junk will almost never sell.
Thanks Illiceman- Good points about the new paint making leaks more visible. I'm told that the meter was changed with the rebuild so don't know the actual hours...does it really matter since it sounds like most of the machine has been rebuilt? The only thing that I'm not sure about is the transmission. Would you typically rebuild it with an out of frame engine rebuild?
I am told that the 550G has a transmission that is fairly easy to access and work on compared to earlier models. What has been you guys experience with these machines? It is a 93-94 model with direct drive. Would like to know how big of a job it is to rebuild one. Thanks for any help....
Let me know when you want to sell it i may buy it
D31p-20 Let me know when you want to sell it i may buy it
Went and checked out the 550G last week and it looks to be a good one. Inspected and operated it for ~ an hour. Turns and pushes good, definably dd as I was able to stall the engine in first gear after spinning the tracks. Seem to do everything it should, I was surprised at how much it will push. No smoke at startup, shoes are in decent shape although several have small chunks missing. The guy said that this could be from turning with loose tracks and they got into a bind. He also pointed out that there is evidence that it had been run what worn rollers because the backside of the shoes had grooves worn in them...the rollers have since been changed. He has repaired the leaking hydraulic cylinders, rebuilt the water pump and painted it since he as had it. While pulling the water pump, they punched a hole in the radiator. It has braised and repaired, but I wonder how much of a concern this should be? What it the worst case? Replace radiator? What kind of money are we talking? Not sure what else major could need repair...any thought from you guys would be appreciated.
Undercarriage is one to check beyond just shoes. You should be able to see if the rails and sprockets are worn. I'm not sure how that unit is built but steering clutches and brakes should be checked if it is possible w/o dis-assembly. Oil samples from all compartments is highly recommended. If the previous owner has been doing them that would be fantastic information. Single samples will only expose eminent catastrophic failure but mutiple samples, taken over the life of the unit, will show trends and can be used to help determine the remaining service life of the components. Samples must be taken with at the correct operating temperature to get good readings from them. Check all cutting edges, and the depth of the growsers, and compare them to new spec. Take a good look at the skin of the dozer blade. It may be tough to see but you are trying to see how much thickness remains. The yoke, the "ball joint" at the back of the blade, is another item that wears out on a dozer. With (2) people, one observing and one operating, you can stab the corner of the blade into the earth, and move the dozer F & R to see how much play is in this joint. Bushings can be inspected with the blade down, dozer parked. Slowly operate each function back and forth to observe the play in each bushing. Same with the ripper, if equipped. Hopefully they did not screw anything else up while trying to fix it. Obviously the radiator is worth more than the repair costs. Maybe you could check Deere for the price (I would) and negotiate it off the price. Why didn't you post any pictures of it? Good luck.
Thanks DGODGR, The guy that is selling, bought the machine from the shop that did the rebuild. He has not done any fluid analysis, but offered to have it done at my expense. But he said that he's not sure how much it would tell since he has no record of previous analysis to determine a trend. He has also changed broken bushings/ball joints and repaired leaking cylinders...all and all looks like a clean machine. Local dealer tells me that a new radiator runs ~$1100 so I'm taking that into consideration. One of thing that has me a little apprehensive is that the dozer is ~1100 miles away. Obviously, I'm getting transportation bids and including them in my cost. I inspected it to the best of my limited ability and feel fairly comfortable that the guy is being very forthcoming with what he knows about the dozer....there's just something about buying one that far away. What experience do you guys have buying heavy machinery long distance? Never done it before and not sure if it really makes any difference once the total cost is considered. What y'all think?
If this dozer has had an engine rebuild and worn tracks to the point of wearing into the pads from the backside, it probably has at least 6-8K hours, or more. It's common to change the hour meter at an engine rebuild, but the rebuild shop should have the hours before it was rebuilt. I would demand a copy of the invoice so you know exactly what was done to it when the hour meter was changed. If it has the kind of hours I think it might, you could be looking at transmission and possibly final drive repairs in the not too distant future......................both expensive, plus nickel and dime stuff in between. If you have $ 20K to spend, I think you could find a nice original dozer that would be a better option. If you are looking out of the area, I'd look for dozers in the northern climates where they don't get the hours that the southern machines get.
Good points Vern, My thinking is that getting one with a rebuilt engine and UC at least lowers the chance these components will go out. I doubt that I will put many hours on one (~1000?), as I'm not looking to make a living with it. How many hours would you say one should run without needing major repair/rebuild? I'm not seeing many around here that have less than 4000 hours and are within my budget. I'm not a heavy equipment mechanic so I'm looking for something dependable. Anybody here have experience buying x-rental machines? Seems that they should be well maintained by the rental company, even if they have been operated by folks who know that they don't have to worry about keep them up. Thanks for the input...
The biggest issue, that I see, with the long distance purchase is that it will be more difficult, and you probably won't even bother, to confront him if the machine is not as he represented. The seller probably will not think about possible future sales (to you), like he would if you were a local, in his decision making processes if you have a greivance. It's pretty easy to hang up the phone, or not answer a call, if the caller is over a 1,000 miles away. If you are confident in your ability to asses the machine, and are preparred to repair whatever breaks, if anything, then the distance issue may be moot for you. Then you are only left with transportation costs. That small of a dozer can be pulled behind a pick-up. Even if you don't have a big enough truck, a "hot shot" service could probably bring it home for you.
Drive trains on that size dozer should be at least 7-8K hours, if they have been maintained properly, on Cat and Deere machines. Condition of rental machines is all over the board. There are good ones and not so good ones. If it were me, I'd try to purchase a machine directly from an owner/operator. Those are normally the best maintained and best condition machines because the owner is running them. If you know your local JD and Cat salesmen, have them keep an eye out for a good machine for you.
I've noticed that there seem to be more JD 450s around than 550s, but their prices are about the same? This is the main reason I'm leaning toward the 550...more bang for the buck on a machine that can be mobilized with my Dodge 2500. Question: Would you guys think the a novice dozer operator, such as myself, be able to tell the difference in the two? What are the main differences in them other than HP and weight? Thanks...
See red text in your quote.
If you purchase a long track in the D3/450 size class tractors the only difference is the blade size and 10 hp. They use the same frames that the D4/550 size tractors do. If you are using it for casual use like it sounds, you likely won't notice a difference between the two sizes. Jump up to a D5C/G, or a JD 650, then you will notice a difference.
Thank guys, Might need to expand my search...