Hello, appreciated reading some of your interactions with solving engine issues. Helping a friend with 4204TT001 engine. Died & someone else started to look at it before I became involved. This has a mechanical fuel pump that seems to be operating from turbo pressure. For now we bypassed that pump using an electric one & plumbed the line into the head. Still no fuel to bleed injectors. Removed radiator & looked into the inspection port where fuel solenoid/throttle control are located. Can't see anything wrong there. Do I need to pull timing cover or head in order to go further? We wonder if system requires more fuel pressure than the electric pump can feed. Any ideas on what the problem could be and where to go from here? Any advice would be much appreciated.
What machine is this in? Maybe you could post some pictures of the engine and pump. That would be helpful.
A complete machine serial number (if in a John Deere machine). Plus a bit more detail on what the issue is and what was done to the unit tio try and solve it.
JD skidsteer 2014 model with 2.4 liter engine. This is unlike any diesel we've ever seen. The fuel system is contained within the head. The injectors are activated from underneath, running off the cam. Will get pics asap. The machine is about 10 miles from here. Friends are helping me with this project for a friend who has lost his job due to seizures and is trying to get on his feet. Now that we're retired, we have time to do these things. Thanks for responding.
That's good to help a guy out. Hopefully these guys can get you going! Get a picture of the serial number to.
In regards to engine model, it is a 4024, rather than the typo 4204. Just for parts and research. Those engines are certainly unique. Often sound like they’re missing to a mechanic’s ear if not timed just perfect, but will run for thousands of hours like that. Everything is under the valve cover if I remember right. Here is a thread that may help you: Google : “ JD 317 skid steer with a power tech 2.4 engine. Never been able to find the serial number. I am fixing myself. Unit” Also, good men for helping a man out. What goes around comes around
Again, the machine's serial number is a must. Please provide that, plus details of what has been done so far. Has fuel pressure been checked? That should have been the first thing tested.
While you are in there, if that cover is still off, jump the fuel solenoid to energize it, then with a steel metric ruler, measure how far the rack travels. The rack is what the fuel shutoff solenoid is pushing against.
You're right, it was a typo. 4024TT001 317 JD skidloader. Using an electric fuel pump to bypass the mechanical lift pump on the engine, we ran fuel right into the inlet port on the head. We have cracked loose the nut on the #1 injector, cranked on the engine...no fuel comes out that fitting. We have also removed the inspection cover on the timing gear cover that houses the fuel solenoid and throttle linkage. Fuel solenoid looks like it is activating the rack. We just read your description of measuring the travel on the rack so we haven't gotten a chance to check that distance yet. What length of travel are we looking for with the metric ruler? You'll see in the photos the engine tag that gives serial number and other specifics. One of the other photos what is visible through the inspection hole that gives access to the throttle and fuel shutoff. You can't see a whole lot in there. The other photo shows the top of the engine. The only thing accessible there are the top of the injector pumps and injectors. Hope this info helps! Thanks for your help so far. When we find out what the rack measurement, we will try to let you know.
Has fuel pressure been checked? There is a check valve on the return circuit of the fuel system that creates the fuel pressure. That check valve likes to fail, causing no start conditions. It is the barbed fitting attached to the elbow coming out of the block that returns to the tank. More times than not, this is the cause of no or hard start issues. Also, while the cover is off, do the rocker arms move when the engine is barred over or cranked? Cam gears like to come loose on those engines as well. 21.5 mm Unfortunately, that tag is not a serial number. Also, I want the machine's serial number, not the engine serial number. While the engine serial number would help, the machine's would be better. There are different engine arrangements and fuel system part numbers based off the machine's serial number. If the serial number is for a 300 series skid steer, it is located as indicated below. The engine serial number will begin with the letters PE on a plate on the side of the block.
I will try to get the machine and serial numbers in a day or so. We're working on the machine about 10 miles from here. I do have a couple of other questions, though. I believe you mentioned earlier to check the fuel pressure. Do you mean the low pressure fuel coming from the lift pump? If so, I think I already mentioned that the people working on this before us had improvised an electric fuel pump. How much pressure are we looking for? Is there a chance this pump doesn't put out enough pressure? We just left that pump in the system thinking it was enough. It's always fun trying to repair something someone else has already attempted to do Thanks again.
I forgot to ask, the fuel shutoff solenoid is working, correct? With the inspection cover off the front of the timing cover, observe the solenoid linkage. When keying on, the fuel shutoff solenoid should engage. Then crank the engine. Does it remain engaged or does it drop out? Check this first. Also, as mentioned, check that rack travel. Yes. You should see a minimum of 10 psi when an engine is running. When cranking, you should see approximately 6+ psi. If the return check valve is shot, then an electric fuel pump will not produce enough pressure either.
Here are the numbers you asked for. The engine number is PE4024T020538 The machine serial number is T00317A100936 We went to the machine yesterday and measured the rack travel. That travel is 11mm. I know you had said 21.5mm. It looks like it's traveling the full extent possible. Is there any way to adjust this? Just got your message about watching whether the fuel solenoid drops out on cranking. Will have to go back again to try that. It will require two people. Received your numbers for fuel pressure. We have already ordered a new mechanical pump to fit the engine so that we can rule out that problem. We'll get back to you later about those two things. Really appreciate all the help! All the time spent on this would drive me crazy if I were on a clock! But since we're retired and just helping a friend, it's not so bad This is all very interesting.
If the return check valve is shot, a new pump will not make a difference. But based on your rack measurement, that is most likely not your issue. Sounds like the magnet on the timing cover fell out. The little screw on the front of the timing cover (first picture below), loosen the jam nut and back out (counterclockwise) the screw until it stops (it will not fall out). See if the rack travel increases. If this magnet falls out, that screw will have to be replaced and that requires the timing gear cover to be removed.
Thanks much! We'll get back to you on that. We're working on site and it is below zero out here this week.
Hello again! We just got through with 3 weeks of 0 and single digit temps. Yes, we did have low fuel pressure. We ordered an aftermarket fuel pump which did not fit. We found out from JD there was no aftermarket replacement and had to get the pump from them. Once installed, it took quite a bit of trouble to get the system bled. The engine fired right up. However, the governor must have trouble, fluctuating wildly. After a few minutes, the engine will settle down and hold RPMs but as soon as you go to work the machine, the governor goes wildly again. Sometimes governor won't activate at all under load and engine will bog down. Are there any external repairs we can do? We did get your information about the screw on the back of the timing cover but didn't think that was relevant because the rack seems to have full travel fluctuating from low idle to wide open throttle. Would appreciate any advice before we go deeper into this. We're thankful to at least have the engine running so far. Thanks very much.
If the rack only moves 11mm, you have an issue with the rack travel, and that can cause a low power complaint. Double check that rack travel measurement to make sure that is in fact the case.
Since my last communication with you we have lost fuel pressure to the low pressure fuel system. In one of your earlier comments, you described a fuel check valve. I saw a diagram which shows this check valve coming out of the rear end of the block. My engine has no such check valve there. At that point of the engine there is brass elbow and a line going straight back to the fuel tank. I think my diagram is the wrong one. Can you help me locate this check valve? Thanks for your past help.
The barbed fitting that is screwed into the elbow fitting on the block is a check valve.
Thank you for your prompt response. I did remove the check valve and I could blow both directions with my mouth on it, so I cleaned it with solvent and blew it out with an air hose. It seemed to hold some pressure then. I hooked a gauge and fittings in series with this check valve. When I cranked on the engine, I don't know if I could get the full 6 pounds of pressure as was mentioned before. Since I couldn't get the engine running, I could not check running pressure which was supposed to be 10 psi. So I blocked the return line to the tank and cranked on the engine again. I could build up to 30 pounds plus with the fuel pump, so I know it's good. Then I left the pressure on the system (the 30 psi) for an hour or more so I know I have no internal leakage. Do you think I need to get a new check valve? I called John Deere dealership and they didn't even know what I was talking about. He said I needed to go to JohnDeereParts.com to try to get a part number for him. Couldn't get anywhere with that website. It seems to be too complicated for old-timers like me. When I was cranking on the engine, I had the nuts loose on all four injector pumps and fuel did seem to be weeping out around the nuts. Don't know if it was enough to activate the injectors. I'm kind of stumped here. Thanks again for your help.
The engine should normally start with the return pinched off with 30 psi fuel pressure, however, the rack travel you had mentioned earlier is what I believe to be the issue. Here is the part number for the check valve in the fuel line.
This needs to be addressed.
Next time you’re looking up Deere parts, try this Deere site. https://partscatalog.deere.com , Very user friendly.
Hello! Thanks again for your help on the low pressure fuel system. You were right about the rack travel. I was not looking forward to working on the governor end of the engine. That's why I tried to rule out every possibility on the low pressure side. I did end up having to pull the radiator, oil cooler, fan, rear door, etc., to get to the governor cover. The rack is spring loaded and has to follow a little arm with a roller on it when the fuel solenoid is opened. That little arm was stuck and would not pop out against the magnet. I popped it out and the engine started right up. I have tried several times since to make it fail again but the engine starts every time. I was dreading disassembling the timing gear cover to get to the governor as I remembered you mentioning I might have to pull the engine and drop the pan to do so. I have studied it through the little inspection cover and can see nothing wrong with the mechanism. Should I go ahead and pull the cover? Will I be able to see what's making it malfunction? Or is this just a fluke? The problem is this has happened once to me and I know it happened to the owner of the machine when this problem started. Thanks for your patience with me. I'm a slow mechanic but am determined to solve this, Lord willing. Thank you.
Whether you want to pursue a repair or not is up to you. I would want to know why it happened. If it has been a long time between issues, maybe run with it for now. Maybe the magnet slipped back into place, or maybe you had a stuck rack. I have seen some engines with rack issues, usually caused by careless installation of the injection pumps. I have also seen pumps that were sticky causing rack travel issues. With the shutoff on, the rack should move smoothly all the way through its travel. If it or the pumps do, it is not likely the issue. Also, that little cover can be removed with the radiator in place. It is a pain, but can be done. If you decide to dive in, do not remove the pumps unless you absolutely have to. There are special tools, a very involved procedure, and extremely tight tolerances involved in setting them set up properly. Also, if the pushrods are removed, then the lifters have to be collapsed or you WILL have a bunch of bent pushrods on start up. Just putting this information out there so you know what potentially could be coming.
We have success!! When I went to adjust the travel on the rack, the adjustment screw had to be turned several times to get the 1mm of clearance between it and the roller. I remember you telling me weeks ago about needing 21mm of travel on the rack and now it all makes sense. You mentioned that perhaps there's something wrong with the magnet, but it seems good. I can feel the arm with the roller locking onto the magnet. One thing that baffles me is that this mechanism must have been out of adjustment for years. The adjuster screw and nut don't look like they've ever been touched and were crusty. I wonder how they got along with the machine all that time as I believe the engine could never go to full throttle. Now it revs right up to wide open. No fluctuation with engine speed either like we were having. We haven't put the radiator back in as we are going to change the water pump and idler while we're at it. So we've not had a chance to lift and push with the machine. But it sure looks like this is the fix we needed! I thank you and my wife thanks you. She has listened to me talk about this for weeks. Also the owner is thrilled. With me and the other volunteer help doing the repairs, he only has to pay for the parts. Unless something else goes awry, we think we're good with this. God bless you!
Today, April 7, we delivered the 317 skidsteer to the owners. They are thrilled! After making the adjustments to the governor, all problems cleared up. Just to make it trouble-free, we replaced parts that seemed borderline: starter, water pump, belt tensioner, glow plug relay, etc. Then we went out digging with the machine and it is a DIGGER! Full RPMs and lots of power. We all wonder how the governor could possibly have been that far off. All the parts looked good, and we could see no wear. Can you imagine how this could have happened? We are wondering if there's a chance that something like this could happen in the future. Anyway, we're all thanking you for your help.