Operating machine the other day and lost all power engine shut down. Now, I have went through the relays in the battery box and fixed one blown. Now, the starter solenoid is just clicking and will not turn over. I hooked direct power to starter, same thing. Anyone have any suggestions?? Are all three relays in the battery box supposed to be hooked to +?? Thanks in advance. Any help would be great!
If the solenoid ITSELF is clicking (not the relays) then the problem is the solenoid or starter or engine or battery cables/battery. Not the "controls". Either the starter isn't getting enough power, the starter/solenoid isn't making as much power as it should, or the engine is locked up. When you say "direct power" did you connect the battery terminal to a small terminal on the solenoid, or the other big terminal on the solenoid? I'd see if you can turn the engine over by hand, then hook up some test leads and a voltmeter and see where the power ends when you try to crank it.
I need a rundown on this system. This is my first time dealing with a Deere. Seems pretty common though. The solenoid on the starter is clicking. I've tried the hammer trick with no luck. and we have had no problems out of the starter. I hooked a jumper (power wire) from the battery to the small power on the starter solenoid. Where does the starter ground? I should be getting 24 volts on the bigger lead correct? Is there anywhere I can get a schematic for this unit? So the power comes out of the battery and goes to a relay. That relay has a hot side from the battery and the ground side goes back to the starter solenoid correct? Where does the exciter wire come from?
The starter grounds to the engine it's bolted to. Yes, you should be getting battery voltage to the big terminal on the solenoid at all times, and the big terminal going from the solenoid to the starter when the solenoid is energized. This cable from the solenoid to the starter might not be visible, I don't know. Forget the relays and controls. You bypassed all that and the solenoid still just clicks. Get out the voltmeter and see where the power is and isn't going when you "click" the solenoid, or go through the battery cables (every connection, and every inch of every big cable) and find where it's loose, or try to turn it over by hand.
The big terminal(#18) from relay (#8) to starter was marked black is what threw me off. I am getting no power on #18. On that first relay (#8) coming off the battery hince why I assumed it was a ground. So I should be getting power on both sides of the relay (#8)? Would that relay going bad cause the machine to just stop? I changed it out with one I had on the truck assuming it was good but not sure. I have checked all connections, everything seems to be nice and tight. Thank you so much for your replies so far.
Forget what I said before... It sure looks like you have a relay AND a solenoid on the starter, so that the solenoid will click (if you hotwire it) with no power getting past the first relay. You definitely need to have power on #18 when the engine is cranking. I don't know how #8 and #15 relate so I can't even guess when #18 is supposed to be hot. Never seen that before... There are Deere experts here, they'll get you straightened out eventually.
I am sure that its fairly simple, just intimidating! Thanks for your input!! :notworthy
I hooked the starter wire straight on battery and starter crossed over. I just cant start it with a key. The battery relay is not getting power on the starter side. This is a brand new battery relay. Can anyone please help?
Maybe keyswitch pooped out?
The key will make solenoid click, just won't put power to the starter. Do you know anything about the single stage diodes in the cab under the fuse panel? Another mechanic had told me to check those diodes This is a different setup than what I am use to. You can see it in a previous post in this thread.
My experience with solenoids that are clicking: you need to get battery power to the big terminal on motor itself, see if motor spins. If motor spins, then get someone to help you. The helper turns key to start (which should engage starter drive), you energize the motor. If engine starts, the solenoid is likely at fault. If the starter motor just spins and doesn't turn engine over, problem still likely to be solenoid related. Be aware, though, whatever you can figure out to energize starter motor needs to be more than a 10 or 12 gauge wire.
You need some information on the starter safety system installed on this machine. A service manual with wiring schematics is necessary at this point. The relay that you see hooked to the battery is the system relay and it is supposed to close when the key is turned on. The starter on Japanese machines always has a safety relay, usually bolted onto the starter with a bracket that reaches between the starter and starter solenoid. Many machines use an output from the alternator to open this relay which prevents the starter from engaging. Some use a diode instead of alternator output to do the same thing. You need that piece of information before moving forward to troubleshoot the system. What you can do is turn the key on and check to see if the gauge or monitor panel comes on. That would tell you the master relay is working. I've seen low oil pressure alarms sound when the engine wasn't running which was a give away that the alternator was shorted through. I've also seen glow plugs shorted through which burned out diodes that were hidden in the cab. If you have glow plugs with a bar connection look for burned paint. Good Luck!
I can hook the main starter wire to the battery and cross over the starter and as long as I manually give it fuel, it will run. So I have lost power to my throttle control as well. I just don't have a schematic to be able to trace the system out and I am not very familiar with the Deere setup. With the battery relay and such. I didn't get a chance to check those diodes yesterday as the machine was in a bad spot. I just got it running and moved it where I could get a vehicle to it.
Shouldn't you be able to remove the alternator wire and trick the system to test as well? Aparently, they have put an alternator on this machine 2 days prior to this happening. It just seemed odd to me that when this all happened, the machine just shut off.
I have had the keyswitch on JD/hitachi ex's pop apart slightly and cause this same exact symptom... solenoid will click but starter will NOT crank. Make sure you check the wires coming out of the switch and the back of the switch.
With the key in run position there should be power on one of the small wires on the magnetic master switch / battery relay and the other small wire should be grounded this energizes and internal field and should feed power from one large terminal to the other. You can remove both wires and bolt them together to bypass relay to confirm relay issues.
Hmmmmm.........Seems I mentioned the key switch yesterday?:idea
Well, I gave a bunch of misleading advice yesterday, so I'll wait until we see what the fix is in the end. I don't have any experience with this double relay solenoid setup, so I can't imagine what let the key operate the solenoid but not the other relay.
I have power on the small wire on top of the large battery relay. The starter will cross over and start if I bolt them together just will not start by the key. However, you can turn the machine off by the key when you start it by crossing it over. I am thinking my problem is in the cab around the fuse panel. Do you know what the three block style fuses on the battery relay are for?? I have one on the battery side and two on the starter wire side. I have checked the keyswitch and everything seems to be in tact and working. I still can't understand why the machine would just shut down during operation. Maybe I am over thinking and it is something simple?
Heh heh... I know Shimmy1 Just thought I would give it another mention because I have seen this happen a number of times on different machines in that make, from what the OP is saying I think it could still be the problem.. the easiest way to rule it out is remove the key switch and check it.
Hey man, I was agreeing with ya! These excavators seem to be a bit more complicated nowadays, but my order of operations is: voltmeter at battery, then starter, then have someone turn switch while I'm checking at the start terminal on starter solenoid, if that's dead then it gets a little tougher, have to track back to relays and/or switch, in the meantime jumper wire to start terminal to make sure starter is functional, you all get the point I'm sure. I'll stop rambling now.
Okay with key on do you get power on one small terminal and ground on the other small terminal on relay. When you bolt large wires together bypass solenoid does it start with the key? I read the thread twice and I'm confused Lol you can bench test them relays with continuity tester and 24v power and ground
You're not the only one confused. When you (original poster) say the solenoid clicks with the key, that means you turn the key and the solenoid on the starter clicks? but doesn't crank. Even with the relay bypassed, cables bolted together? It will crank and start when you cross over the starter. Is crossing over connecting the big terminals or just getting power to the small solenoid terminal?
Start here. With the battery relay open, there is no power to anything other than the key switch. When the key switch is moved in either direction, left for preheat if the machine has it, or right to turn on and further to start, then power is sent to the small terminal on the main battery relay, which should close it and send battery power to the starter main terminal and basically every other circuit in the machine. Check that you have voltage at the switch with the switch off, then voltage at the battery relay small activation terminal. If you do, and there is no voltage at the large terminal on the side towards the starter, but there is 24V on the battery side, then you have a bad battery relay. If you don't have voltage at the small activating terminal you have a broken wire, bad key switch, blown fuse or fusible link between the battery and the key switch, etc.
OMG, this has to be something simple. You HAVE to have battery power on both sides of relay #8 for this machine to start!? Relay #8 SHOULD be activated by the key switch. On my old Case machines, the key controlled a ground circuit to activate the master relay. They did it this way because then there would be no power to anything but the relay itself. My old Komatsu dozer was this way also. I believe newer machines must use power from the key to activate the relay because on my new 210 the clocks in the cab always keep time? You seem to keep saying you can't get power through #18 right? We need to determine how relay #8 is activated.
YES, when the switch is off, you should have power to the battery side of #8 and none on the starter side, with the key on, you should have power on both sides. Again, check the small terminals on Relay #8, one should be ground, the other should be switched from the key switch. Yes, if the relay fails, or loses power to the coil, the whole machine shuts off. You can temporarily bolt the cable #18 to the battery side lug on the relay along with the battery cable #28, essentially bypassing the relay. Everything should work normally. If that's not true you have bigger problems.
That is where I am now. #18 is temporarily bolted to the battery lug and key will still not start the machine. I am still having to cross it over at the starter to make it operate. I will do some more testing today and post some more updates. Thanks for the help so far!
When you turn the key do you have dash lights? if not, check your load dump relay diode. it is located fuse box area, should be a tiny thing two wire with a white female connector and black diode.
Are you getting power to the key switch? Sounds like 707 has some direct experience with the Deere machines, follow up on that.
I do now have dash lights. My problem is I need to know where the two red wires on top of the battery relay goes. I am not getting any power to the top of the battery relay now. Also, what is the places the three fuse blocks above the battery on the battery relay. I want to make sure those are right too. I have one fuse block on the battery hot, and two on the starter lead. I can take a jumper wire and jump power to the hot on top of the battery relay and can start it with the key. I need a schematic. The local Deere dealer will not print me one off for some reason.:Banghead Thanks everyone for your input so far!
Okay your getting some were does the other small wire have ground all the time or only when key is on that will tell if they switch by power or ground maybe some knows off the top I'm not sure. If it constant ground chances are power comes right from key switch does the key switch have one wire that is hot at all times
And one that is hot in run position not to insult anyone but always try to view electronics in a a circle from one battery post to another you need power and ground. Diagnostics are usually easiest by starting at symptoms a and back tracking till you find something that is working. But don't forget to double check your work when in depth and try to look at big picture
The key switch does have one hot all the time. The red wire. When you turn the key, like to start, I have power on 4 if I remember correctly. The other small wire on the battery relay has ground all the time.
....
What's important is how many are hot In run if it isn't a bad key switch I'm of no more help with out a schematic just wanted to help narrow down.
Dealers are tough some times. my local john deere dealer has a service manager that will go out of his way to help. Now they added second service manager and he's not as worried about helping competition lol.
I have also ran out of ideas. Maybe someone with some good John Deere insight can chime in on this! Thanks for all your help.
How many wires have power with key in run not cranks?
Just the one red wire.
I would change key switch maybe if you buy key switch they would print you off schematic
Any idea how much a keyswitch would be?
Ok, let's go down the list, get it all in one post. When key is OFF you have power at the red wire. When key is moved to START , you have power on 4 wires plus the red wire, according to post #33. Then, with switch in RUN , you only have power at the red wire according to post #39. So, I think everyone would agree that you need some wires besides the red one hot in the run position. Now, on to Relay #8. Have you tried to leave it hooked up like it would normally be and use a jumper to the other terminal (not the one that is ground) to see if you can activate it? If you can, the only thing left is to see if you can determine if one of the wires under the key goes to that relay. If so, and everything I've listed is correct, then all it can be is the keyswitch. If you can't determine if one of the wires under the key goes down to the relay, then either a wire has failed, or something else is not allowing power to activate that relay.
Okay the light bulb just lite on my head Back feed small wire in relay and see if you get power to one wire on key switch
Agreed with Shimmy. I don't know about Hitachi, but the Deere wiring that I've seen is clearly identified and fairly easy to trace. Each wire had it's own #, ones that went to the same terminal would be 12A, 12B, etc. Following Shimmy's line of thought, you could try to jumper the back of the key switch in the run position to see if that relay will activate, then see if the key will start. (could be that the switch has to activate in run to prevent "hotwiring") Of course that requires identifying the relay wire. With everything off, ground the control wire at the relay and use an ohm meter to check the back of the switch, then disconnect the wire from ground to verify. (edit: or what he said)
If there is a wire that runs to the battery relay, would it be the same color code as in the key switch? Would there be a diode brake between the two? Thank you guys for all the help!
Well, only a schematic is going to tell you that. Have you tried to jump power to the non-ground terminal on the master relay (#8)? Just take some wire and touch one end to battery cable and other end to terminal. Those things usually make enough noise you will know or feel it. If you can get that activated that way, then use the key and try to start.
When you turn key on, you should here the clunk when disconnect relay closes, that should give power through machine and batt power to starter, do you have power to starter at this point?
Yes, that is one way you could do it, but if that circuit has a relay involved in it, then it may not work. Hold on there Overworked, we are still trying to figure out why he can't get the master relay activated in the first place.
Okay between post 19 and 30 is where I got confused I think there had been many posts by shimmy lantrax and delmer that would have solved the problem I think op is jumping a around and forgetting what he is doing ( been there ) or the problem is changing
He said he changed master relay with one he found in his truck, was it any good??????
I have tried jumping the non ground over straight from the battery. The key will start the machine at that time. Like another poster said, I need to jump over the key switch on each terminal and see what I have. I am just totally unsure where the two power wires on the non ground terminal come from. If I could figure that out, I think I could fix the problem. If its not the key switch, there has to be a diode or fuse somewhere or a broken wire.
I ordered a brand new master battery relay and put it on.
So, thank you overworked. Maybe we DON'T know if "new" relay works? I believe he has said in earlier post he has ground at the other??
Okay your close we don't know exactly how the machine is Wired. but if you try back feeding key switch from relay in hopes it's a straight shot to key switch because we don't know how it's wired.
1.** amps at the time when I checked with a meter. Was enough to light the test light though. When you check, double check and triple check things sometimes you tend to confuse yourself. I troubleshot 2 days without a meter, just a test light. Wouldn't some type of safety shut down prevent power from traveling to the relay as well?
So, I should have read a little better I see.
Back to key switch, 1 power wire hot when key off, turn key to run, not crank, power on how many wires?
1 wire. That is the red wire.
In the Deere system I've seen, it would have the same number and color, if there was anything in between then the wires would be the same color but the next number. Sorry, don't know if that applies to yours??? But an ohmmeter will figure it out eventually, remember an ohmeter will read a diode open in one direction, so reverse the leads.
If you turn to run and you do not have power on another wire then you need a new switch.
Well, that's what we are trying to figure out, with none of us having a schematic in front if us!! That's why I have been asking if you can determine if the small power terminal (not battery!!) wire on Relay #8 is a direct link to one of the wires under the keyswitch.
So in the run position, I should have power on 2 wires? So is there a direct connection from the key switch to the battery relay?
Pretty sure this will be third time I'm saying it, I think the keyswitch is the culprit.
I will back feed the wires tomorrow and see if it changes anything in the key switch.
On this style of battery disconnect, the hot wire you have at the key only feeds the battery disconnect, once battery disconnect closes you will have another hot wire at the key to feed the start circuit and so on.
Once again, no schematic; maybe, maybe not. That's why you need to ohm all keyswitch wires, except that red one, both ways down to battery relay. Remember to have batteries unhooked when checking resistance with ohmmeter.
Yep. I have confidence that you are correct! In the morning I will back feed those wires and jump the key switch and hopefully get fire in the hole!
Great piece of info! As you can see, I am not familiar with this setup until now!
I would not back feed anything. Unless you are certain of a wire going directly from keyswitch to the relay. Use your ohmmeter, have it set on X 200, one lead on wire down at relay, other lead on each wire under keyswitch (Not the red wire!!). If none of these read "0", reverse leads and recheck. If still none of them read " 0", I believe we have done all we can without a schematic.
Also can check if there are corresponding numbers or colors between key switch and disconnect relay. There is tons of good info in this tread shimmy has been all over this and we've been trying to read word the same info.
The more you jump and back feed , the sooner your gonna have fire in the hole, in the cab, in the battery box. Shimmy is correct, rml also, you need to use ohms meter and check your circuits, the power feeds to the key switch should be fused through the fuse panel in the cab, I feel you have a bad key switch or connection at key switch as stated already. Without a schematic any type of diagnosis is very hard, My head hurts just from this thread. I wish I was at machine to help you.
Would it be efficient to run a wire from relay to check with? My leads aren't very long.
Only problem, machine has been repainted and all wires are JD YELLOW!!! :beatsme Great info in this thread!!! Thanks again guys!!
Yes, it might ad a few ohms but your looking for continuity's
Sometimes you have to open up harness a few inches to get past paint, be careful with knife or you will have more problems down the road with the GREEN ones.
Absolutely. Just make sure your connection doesn't touch anything metal. Also, don't get discouraged if you can't determine if one of the keyswitch wires is the same as the wire down at relay. If you can't, there still may be other possibilities such as some sort of circuit protection that has failed. Keep the faith. You will get it figured out.
Yeah the GREEN ones will get ya!
Thanks so much for all the help! I will post an update tomorrow...
I wonder if any of those idiots that like to poke holes in wires ever have to fix their own problems??
I had a harness 20 years ago that looked like it was hit with bird shot, gave it a pull and the hole thing stretched like gumbie's arm, had to replace hole harness.
Why shimmy yes and I'm sure you've seen were they have tried usually looks like stray red wires run out side cab tied around mirrors and head in to a rainbow colored rats nest of other wires fuses tap maybe a pair of wire strippers they left behind and it looks like all that was shot with target load shot gun shells because the forgot what the new wires were added for lol
My FAVORITE are those godforsaken blue three-way taps that push a cutter down into wire? Those things should be illegal. And the best part?? Always seem to be used in the sill harness on a trailer!! When they're done "fixing" they might as well take a side cutter and just start cutting. Get it over with.
Haha funny you mentioned them did some work for a farmer ( not relative ) but he loved them order them by the bag along with these uninsulated clips for routing wire they worked great Untill the wire thought about moving and would short out. Wanted me to wire in starting system on 10 hp motor with 14 gauge wire.
Scary, isn't it?
red/white : originates at keyswitch as red/black changes to r/w after load dump relay nothing else in that circuit other than another diode(battery relay diode) should be somewhere close the battery relay i think. check those diodes. if everything checks out, check those diodes. if your monitor is not lit, the diode has failed. it powers the load dump relay which should be the first relay on the left in the relay block.
after the load dump relay diode **
Hey j little any update?
Changed key switch, still have the same problem. Where is the load/dump relay located 707?
So just to be clear...do you have dash lights?
I do have dash lights.
You said alternator was replaced recently. Try removing wires from alternator and see if it start. Machine uses alternator to prevent starting while running. Diode trio in alternator may have failed and will prevent it from starting thinking engine is running. Have same problem recently with 120 & 160 excavators. Just a thought.
Start with JWJDM's suggestion first because it is infact a probable cause.
also when you testing the battery relay did you have power at the red/white wire?
the load dump diode is located inside the cab around the fuse panel area. it should be a cluster of 5 although you may not see all five. they are foal plugs about an inch in length and 1/4 inch in width, which little black stubs (diodes) sticking out of them. it might be easier to remove the rear plastics to get in around the fuse and relay blocks. check all of the diodes should only beep one way when testing with multimeter. one way being when you with the leads. diodes and wiring as follows. V1— Battery Relay Diode (Blk and Red/Wht) V2— Load Dump Relay Diode (Red/Blk and Red/Wht) V3— Auxiliary Power Diode (Blk and Red) V4— Starter Relay Diode (Yel/Grn and Blk/Wht) V5— Windshield Wiper Relay Diode (Blu/Blk and Blu/Red) V8— Starting Aid Diode (Blk and Blk/Red)
No power at the red/white wire.
do you have power out on red/blk wire of your keyswitch? if so locate the diode. test for continuity from keyswitch to diode. test diode if wiring ok. you will have to remove the plastic behind the seat for access. if diode is ok move to relay k15 which is the alternator relay, mounted at the very back by itself on the wall (only viewed with platsics off). check for power at pin 87. you will have power at 87 if your dash is lit. you can skip this one if you like. go to pin 5 on the load dump relay k1 (last one on the right bank). you should have power. its a straight shot the battery relay after this. do check v1 however. I have a schematic for this but I can not post or email it to you just yet. should be able to get it up by tomorrow morning.
Wow, you are awesome.. I am not going to be around the machine tomorrow. Should be Saturday though. The schematic would be a great help!!! :notworthy Great thread and awesome help guys! Thanks to everyone who has chimed in so far!
I just wish that the keyswitch would have fixed it for you. ops
You were great Shimmy! That's how it goes sometimes!
I did indeed have two diodes bad! Replaced both, cranked over and started perfectly! Thanks everyone for your help! Sorry it was so complicated! :usa
We need more 707's on here.:salute
You didn't design it did you? Then it would serve you right. Thanks for the final resolution.
Thanks for the reply, wire diagrams are worth there weight in gold or more,
Glad to hear its fixed. Here is the schematic for future reference.
707 Could you possibly e-mail this to me so I could print it out? Ive tried blowing it up but it only distorts it. THANK YOU!:cool2
Couldn't have said so better myself! Thanks again guys for all your help!!!! :notworthy
Must have been V2, eh?