I am new to the world of diesel mechanics, but decided to jump in head-first. I recently bought a 1978 John Deere 310A and it will not start. Some history on the machine (as I was told) It was running "a few months ago", but had some coolant in the oil. The oil was changed and there was more coolant in it. After a pressure test on the radiator it was determined that it was likely a head gasket leak. They pulled the head off and found a burned spot on the gasket and no sign of cracks in the block or the head. At that point the head was removed and sent for resurfacing at a shop up the road. When they got it back and installed it the machine would not start. Over the phone the "kid" that did the resurfacing on the head told them it likely needed new sleeves, so they sold the machine at a significant discount. What I have tested & repaired; First I tried new batteries as the ones in the machine were not holding a charge and turning the machine over slowly. I then found that the fuel pump was not priming the fuel filter. I pulled the lift pump and found that it was leaking to the drive lever, so I replaced the pump. While I was in there I changed out the fuel filter at the same time. Primed the system by loosening the bleeder at the top of the filter and ran the manual lever on the lift pump until there was no air coming out of the bleeder. I then split the joint going into the fuel distributor and bled the system again with the lever on the fuel pump. At that point the tractor would still not start. I checked the fuel cut-off solenoid and found it was not actuating. Going through it I found that the lead wire insulation had gone bad and it was shorting to the housing. While I was in there... I took the cover off and verified that the metering valve was free and that the solenoid was moving when voltage was applied. I also verified that there was no rubber debris inside the cover of the distributor and that the pressure relief valve on the outlet was not clogged. Tried it again and the tractor would puff smoke and get a single pop with ether sprayed outside the air filter. I cracked the lines at the injectors and was getting fuel and no visible air at the fitting. Tried again and still no luck. The guy that was working on it before did say that the injector gaskets still looked good, which I assume, means that he did not change them with the new head gasket. Need some advice; I am getting to the point where I do not know where to check next (compression, fuel distributor, injectors, bleeding the lines for the 6th time) and could really use some advice. I do not want to just throw parts at it/buy tools to test based on guesses. My assumption is that, if the person I bought it from was telling the truth (which I believe he was, but who knows) then the rings should still be good and not leaking enough to cause it to not run. I am also new to the world of heavy equipment and diesel engines and could use some advice on where to go from here. Thanks in advance.
Well, you have everything possible going on in this case, and if everything you say is true then it should run, but it's not. \ If you can post a video of trying to start it, showing the smoke from the exhaust, and decent sound, that would give us a little bit to go on regarding cranking speed, assumed compression, etc. or you could do a compression test, and/or check the spray pattern of the injectors you remove to do the compression test.
Not getting smoke today, not sure why, but I did have it before light, whitish smoke after throwing in a little ether. A couple more points, I do have the clutch fully depressed while cranking (with the flip up stop lifted). I do not have a compression tester, but could pick one up at Harbor Freight up the road. The video of it turning over is linked below
If you arent getting smoke then you arent getting fuel. Dont use a lot of ether, you will blow your piston rings if they arent already. Did it chug at all when you tried ether or just the single "pop" If you can have someone crank it for you, open your oil fill and that is a quick way to tell if you've got excessive blow by. you shouldnt get hardly any air movement. If it hits like an air compressor you can pretty well guarantee that at the least you will need piston rings and that you dont have adequate compression to fire. Those old diesels are the easiest things to work on because they are so simple to run. Fuel, air, compression.
My daughter gave me a hand running the test. She turned over the engine for about 5 seconds and I put my hand over the oil fill and could not feel any pressure build up. Should I get a compression tester, or start to dig further into the fuel? My gut tells me the same as you described above that the root cause is fuel, not compression, but the last change made to the system was in the head (which would possibly compromise the compression if they ground the valves incorrectly). Before one week ago I had never touched a diesel, but I do like how there are easier to diagnose. Two other things I had noted; When I opened the valve cover to check the lash on the rocker the entire top was dry (no oil). There was approximately the right amount of clearance (certainly released from the rocker). Also there seemed to be a "puff" of pressure through the intake when it was turning over. Could this be valve timing?
Pulling and reinstalling a cylinder head will not change injection pump or valve timing, If set valves according to timing mark and Cyl at TDC to start then not a problem. No smoke is as noted NO Fuel. either ful is shut off at tank, or the injection pump is corrupted. Easiest way to set valves once get timing pointer aligned for #1 is determine that number 1 is Not in valve overlap(Exhaust Stroke to intake stroke), set valves in firing order with the running mate in full valve overlap(Firing order ?1342) Running mates !/4, 2/3.
I had the injectors fitting loose earlier (which is why I had no smoke) tightened it and the smoke is back. There is definitely fuel in the distributor. Not sure how much is going through the injectors
Obviously little. There are two timing marks, one is a pointer front of engine to crank pulley, the other behind a side plate on the fuel injection pump, with the first one aligned check the second, when Both aligned remove the retainer nuts and take that injection pump to a shop for rebuild.
It sounds like you have a dragging starter and one cylinder with more compression than the others, and that means three are low, not one is overperforming. Do you have the throttle wide open? Are you using fresh fuel? A little ether won't hurt it if you do it right, crank it and then give it a little shot of ether, if it catches only once, then give it a little bigger shot, or two quick shots a split second apart and keep cranking until it overruns the starter, or a couple seconds after the last ether.
I was going to pick up a compression tester in the morning and run a dry and wet test to see what it is. I will post those results to get some feedback on them tomorrow. I am running 1/2 throttle when cranking. I have tried ether around the air filter, but only gotten it to give a single fire
Welcome to HEF, Bogueyman ! From the sound of it cranking over, a compression test will tell you a lot about the condition of the motor. It sounds tired ! Did you get the valve lash set ? It kinda sounds like a couple are tight.
Thank you for the greeting. I was at the sellers place when I checked the valve lash and did not have my feeler gages with me. I did turn the motor and eyeballed .010"-.015" gap on all of them. It was enough to show that the valves were closing and not causing a lack of compression through the lash.
did they send off the injectors and have them rebuilt I have seen where when you do that the old pump will not make enough pressure to pop the injectors. also try pulling the injectors and squirt oil in the cylinders then turn it over put injectors back in and try to start
I did not get the compression checked today as it rained through most of the day, but I did get the injectors pulled. They definitely did not have the injectors rebuilt. I did find that the injector o-rings were as hard as a rock (thus not checking the compression). Picking up new ones in the morning and going from there
A quick update. The HF compression gage has a fatal design flaw (no check valve to hold the compression), but I was able to use the adapter to pressurize the cylinders. On cylinders 1, 3, and 4 it had huge leaks out the valves. Cylinder#2 had leakage through the rings. Removed the head and it is clear that the valves were not removed when work was done on the head also it looks like a mouse nest got sucked down into cylinders 3&4 as there was a bunch of organics material stuck in the valves & cylinders. #1 had some carbon buildup on the exhaust valve. That is likely due to the poor injector spray pattern I saw when I hooked the injector up outside the head. At this point I am replacing the valves and cleaning up the seats. At that point I will check the compression with a different gage and see where it is
Thats awesome you found it, but why wouldnt you go ahead and replace the rings while you have the head off? Itd be silly to replace the valves and all knowing you have leakage at #2 at least, just to put the head back on and test again. Im not sure about this unit specifically but is there enough room to drop the oil pan and do that while you're at it?
A couple reasons for just doing the valves. 1. I did not know if the engine needed a complete teardown, possibly hydraulic pump... If I could get it running, assess the general condition it would give a better information set. 2. The head comes out & in in about 1-1/2 hour total, so going back and doing the cylinders only cost a head gasket and a little bit of time. 3. Not sure how long I would own this one. I have a big job that I need a machine of this size, but after that it would mostly be normal yard work stuff which is better suited for a smaller machine. If I change my mind I will do a full tear-down. The good news is with new valves, cleaned cylinders and a shot of ether... This was right after I started it, so it was burning off some of the oils from having the head off. Now it starts right up with almost no smoke
You have a good common sense way to save money !
Another quick update. I added the exhaust and some coolant in the head (using the temperature sensor hole) and ran the machine for a few minutes, at which point it developed a once per revolution (ish) squeal. Thinking it might be the fan belt slipping on a tight alternator I loosened the belt all the way and ran it again with no change to the noise. When I checked the oil it was filled with water (milkshake colored). I have only run the machine for a few minutes and the new gasket kit is running almost a week late so to run this testing I reused the old head gasket. My plan for finding the coolant leak is as follows; 1. Start with a new head gasket -while I am in there examine for any block cracks 2. Drain all the coolant 3. Bypass the intercooler 4. Replace the oil filter/oil 5. Run the engine (no coolant) 6. Add coolant and run again Questions I need some help with; -how do I flush the old water filled oil out? -other than the intercooler, or head gasket is there anything else the leak could be from other than a cracked block? -if it is a cracked block is there anything that can be done other than a scrapyard? -any insight on what the squeal could have been? I do not want to run it to get a video if there is water in the oil.
Reusing the old head gasket is probably most definitely your fatal flaw with getting oil mixed in your coolant, you can never re-use a head gasket. Typically if the block is cracked allowing water inclusion it is either cracked near the head mating surface or a cracked liner. So when you have the head off look over the surface real well between all the water ports. Also turn the motor over by hand and inspect each cylinder. Also what i meant by doing piston rings is that you do not need to rebuild the whole engine. Its a simple as dropping the oil pan (with the head off of course) unbolting your rod from the crankshaft, pushing the rod and piston out of the top of the engine, replace rings, and re-install the piston (with ring compressor tool of course) repeat for each hole.
I agree on the used head gasket. Not being able to get an estimated date from the JD dealer on the gasket kit re-using the head gasket was intended as a temporary measure allowing me to see if it would start and making sure that the engine stayed closed to the elements as I do not have a barn in which to keep it. When I had the head off I did go through the top surface of the block and did not see any signs of cracks, but I will look through again when I change the gasket. For the cylinders the manual said not to rotate the motor with the head off or it could unseat the sleeves. From what I saw of the sleeves there were some score marks so they are not pristine. I do not have a bore gage to check cylindricity and diameter Again I am not versed in diesel engines, but I know if auto-cycle engines changing the rings without honing the cylinders will not allow the rings to seat properly and can result in more problems than it started with. Is the same true with diesels?
The head needs to be magnafluxed. It should have been done after resurfacing it. IMHO! Take the oil pan off and pressurize the cooling system and look for leaks. Just because you don't see any cracks doesn't meant there isn't one.
Hmm..id have to look into that model engine a little more i guess. Ive never run into anything like that where you risked unseating the liner. Typically you need a puller to unseat a liner. Your liners may be too far gone but typically depending on your usage and how long you plan on keeping the unit will determine that. It wont cause more issues unless you have bad scoring in which case it could damage/break your new rings. If your liners are wore past an acceptable range you will see little to no improvement in your blow by issue. If the blow by isnt terrible you may just as well leave it alone.
I can almost guarantee that the head was never magnafluxed when it was cut by "the kid up the road" as the valves were, clearly, not removed when it was plained. My father-in-law knows a guy who may be able to help out with that, I will look into it. For the sleeves, here is a quick grab from the manual with the warning about rotating the engine with the head off. How would I know if it is safe to turn? If it is helpful the engine is a 4219DT 07 (from the tag)
If you're worried about popping the liners out, you can use washers and oversized nuts to clamp them down.
I was wondering earlier if the injector tips extend below the head surface. Indeed they do according to the image posted. So, they may be damaged from moving the head with no thought of them sticking out.
Good idea on the bolt/washers to hold the liners if needed. The injectors do extend past the head. I have had them out and they do not appear to have any mechanical damage. I also checked the spray pattern and all but #1 had good spray. The #1 injector had a partial cone shape to the spray which would explain some of the carbon on the exhaust valve
Just got the last batch of stuff from the dealership. I checked the hydraulic fluid and it was not on the dipstick, so I thought that the noise it was making could have been low fluid. It took about 2 gallons, restarted and after about 1 minute the noise came back. It is definitely corellated to engine speed and temperature (let it cool down and it will not be back at start). I thought it might have been the fan belt, but eliminated that idea. Any ideas what it could be?
did you take the fan belt off and check it with no fan, water pump or alternator turning? is that what you meant. All I can think is that sounds like it could be half engine speed so maybe it's one of the cam rollers, you might feel it in one of the rocker arms if you try feeling them with the engine running, or use a screwdriver "stethoscope", put the plastic against the plastic of ear muffs, and use the tip of a long screwdriver to feel the part in question. I suppose you could remove two push rods at a time and try it that way, keep track of which is front and back and put them back in the right hole and you won't even have to adjust them again.
My 410 sounded just like that a few years back..... It was the water pump.. To check yours, loosen the belt, grab the fan and see if it has a bunch of play in it, side to side, top to bottom.. Report back..
To test the belt I loosened the alternator adjustment all the way with no change to the sound. I did not pull the belt as it was not clear how to get it around the hydraulic pump. I will take it off the alternator and see what it sounds like. If not I will see what isolating the lifters/push-rods does. I have not worked on anything that uses rollers for the lifters. If needed can they be replaced when I have the head off?
Delmer said cam (camshaft) rollers not (valve) lifter rollers.
With the belt loose there was much more play in the fan than I expected. I was surprised that it was not leaking
By camshaft roller does that mean roller bearings that support the camshaft?
Did you find what Showrguy was talking about? With the water pump bearing. I don't know what kind of cam to pushrod connection is in this motor, just guessing that's a place I'd check, if the noise is still present with the belt not turning. It's not likely to be an easy fix if it's inside the engine, but find it first, right?
I tried removing the belt and running it, but the sound was still there. It looks like there are just solid lifters from the repair manual with a straight bore for the cam bearings. Should I try a de-sludge by running some diesel or kerosene in place of the oil incase there is a bore "gummed up"?
That is most likely the noise source. Replace the water pump before the fan hits the radiator.
Here is a video that starts right after it started. The squeak starts at the end of the video. The belt is off of the alternator with the water pump not running. I shut it off right after that
I would not try to run anything in the oil. Since this came with coolant in the oil, anything inside of the engine could be damaged from running with damaged oil, coolant in oil is very bad for oil, and bad oil is bad for bearings. You could try taking the valve cover off and using a long thin screwdriver for a stethoscope, try it on the side of the block where the crank bearings are also if you risk starting it up. I think I'd check for any loose body panels in that area also just to be sure the squeak isn't from something outside of the engine. The oil pan isn't hard to get to on this, is it? Take that off first and check the main and rod bearings for slop or blueing.
I did find the source of the squeak (after a sleeve cavitation failure caused a rebuild of the motor) and thought I would share it with the forum. Turns out the problem and squeak was caused by a bad injector. I thought that the fact that the engine was not super smooth was due to a weak cylinder, but after new pistons and sleeves it was still running on 3 cylinders (partial on the fourth). When I loosened the line to the #3 injector the noise would stop, tighten and it would come back. Using a mechanics stethoscope (pipe) the noise was confirmed at the injector.