hello. i have a john deere 310c backhoe. owner operator. it has about 7000 plus hours on it. i did a job last November in a super super drought dusty environment. if anyone remember 2016 november drought in southeast? anyways....on that job..i had a main hose bust underneath the floorboard . a big fat hose. i replaced the hose with a new one from Napa. I made sure to check that the hose had no debris or obstruction. ever since then...it seemed to slowly obtain a delay in hydraulics. i finished the job...maybe 20 more hours. i changed the filter underneath the floorboard. i also took the wire screen out of hydraulic tank on the side and it was clean. --i do have many leaking cylinders . i also have a few leaky spots in the two return lines running up the side of the engine along the frame to the cooler in the front stacked next to radiator. is that for the transmission or for the hydraulic cooler? These leaking cylinders are weaping and are just the same as before that hose bust. Since november...I only used it one more time for about 15 hours. since then...i havent used it except unloading stuff around my shop. if i let the machine sit for extended time...it seems to be worse than if it runs often. -- typically..if the backhoe is idling...i can pull back on the loader handle and at idle it will slowly lift.....and the same with the boom on the rear. now..i have to rev up to 1/4 throttle. where should i check for issues? a port to check pressure? how? any help is appreciated. thanks!
I am trying to post pics of the return line to pump on my backhoe. Underneath machine. Hose clamps hold 2 inch size ish? Line in each end. Is there a certain name for this type of hose and where to buy? Cost? - Also, the main line has slightly rubbed the ground strap from engine to frame. I don't see a hole. But, a raw place. What's the best way to fix a line such as this? I'd hate to buy the line from deere! Ouch. Braze it? Also, what is the size and type of hose that runs from transmission to cooler? The transmission is a separate system than the hydraulics? Thanks!
Other pics and pics of main line from pump where strap rubbed it. Must have been a stick from underneath that pushed against it!
The lines to the oil cooler in front of the radiator are to cool the torque converter. I would not try to braze the rubbed steel lines if they aren't leaking. I think stopping the rub and protect it from any further rubbing is enough. I have replaced a leaking steel line with hydraulic hose before.
Thanks for the replies and ideas. So....I can't lift the loader above hood level. The steering is almost non existent. The hydraulic tank has foamy fluid. So...after pulling machine in shop with loser level with hood....I cut the engine off. After the machine was sitting a few minutes...I could hear air spewing and slight fluid gurgling from steering cylinder. The end piece on cylinder seems to not be flush and it's leaking. Could air be entering the steering cylinder and affecting my whole system? How hard is the steering cylinder to build? I'm hoping mine isn't damaged. I could order packing from herculesus dot com. But since the end cap on cylinder is loose I am worried.... need to find a salvage yard close to atlanta. Im sure John Deere wants a fortune for a new cylinder!
Foamy fluid sounds like it has air and or water in the oil. How is the level? I would change the fluid and filter. Alternatively you could let it sit a while and see if the fluid clears up. If it does and the level is okay, siphon some off the bottom to check for water.
On a 310C, it's very easy to pull the whole steer cylinder and have a shop rebuild it. If you're not familiar with or don't have the tools... I recommend having a hydraulic shop do the rebuild. That's what I did for my 310C
Thanks for the replies. I had the steering cylinder built for this backhoe many years ago. I have tools and a shop. I'm wondering what I'd need to torque the piston on such a small cylinder? A small pipe? Torque wrench? On larger ones we use a pipe wrench and long pipe. Or friend at machine shops has a torque multiplier.
Thanks for the reply. It's definitely NOT water. I did change the main filter underneath the machine and drain most fluid and replace. When I mean foam I mean that it has that "air" or frothy air bubbly fizzy look to the fluid in the tank. But when it sits it goes away. I'm wonder if the steering cylinder can cause the main pump to suck air? It's perplexing. Odd to hear it spew air out the steering cylinder end after sitting a little while not running. The rubber lines coming from transmission. What would be the best type of hose to buy? It looks to be attached with hose clamps on each end. Outside diameter from my memory makes me think it's like 3/4 inch? Inside smaller. I usually go to a local napa. we have lots of old equipment and lots of breakdowns and I've yet to run into an "air in hydraulic" issue like this one!
I forgot to say...the level is low sometimes as I have a few cylinders leaking. But I check it often and keep it full. It doesn't have moisture as I've kept the machine parked under a shed since the last project I used it on back in march. And that project was just a new sewer system for a house in red clay. No swamp..... I wonder where the hydraulic vent is for this machine? Hmmmm....
The air filter is #20. http://jdpc.deere.com/jdpc/servlet/com.deere.u90490.partscatalog.view.servlets.HomePageServlet_Alt A last resort to find the air leak would be to apply air pressure to the hydraulic tank. Don't go crazy, 15 psi. at the most.
I'd bet you knocked the suction hose back when you had the main line blow, and now the suction hose is leaking. Either that, or the seal on the main hydraulic pump let loose from being run dry after a few years... Either way, applying air pressure to the tank might find it like Tinkerer said. Or go through the suction side of the system till you find what's loose, soft or cracked. If it's water in the oil causing the foam, then a drop of oil will sputter or pop when dripped on hot steel. Oil with water will just smoke. The water can be disolved in the oil in such low amounts and still defeat the antifoaming additives that are in the oil. That might contribute to the steering cylinder making foam, but more likely the cylinder isn't doing it, it's a suction air leak.
Thanks! You make some logical points! I'm hoping it's no seal on the pump. And no leaks or noise in front near pump. So, you say I knocked suction hose back when replacing main line. You mean the big 1 1/2 looking hose from tank to pump? I don't think I got anywhere near it but it's possible. Putting air to hydraulic tank. So how is best I do that? Any tips? I could stick blow tube on air compressor hose and hold a rag over hydraulic reservoir hole to seal it up and build pressure? Then look for leak? Turn my regulator down on compressor? I don't think I'd find an adapter of that size at Home Depot for tank inlet haha. I could cut up an old intert tube and wrap around blow gun making a wedge for hole. Naps had an 1 and 1/2 wire braided hydraulic return hose. It seemed kinda thick....might be hard to bend to tank or go hydraulic pump inlet. My original hose seems thin in Comparison.... Gosh...if it's the seal on hydraulic pump...that means I gotta take of front counter weight or cooling system? Or reach underneath for pump removal? Ouch. Thanks for all the help so far!
Thanks for the link. All I see is a main John Deere page. Internet limitations! By air filter you mean hydraulic vent filter? Thanks!
I don't know what the hole in the reservoir looks like. Maybe use the valve stem off a junk inner tube, a hose clamp to clamp the rubber to the pipe, and fill it up with a tire chuck. The hose clamp and rubber probably won't hold enough pressure to harm the tank. Yes, it would be the big hose between the tank and pump. They can get soft, collapse inside, crack in a way that they only leak under suction, whatever. If it's original then it's ancient. If it's been replaced it might not be suction rated. If you can get at it, squeeze it and go over it feeling for soft spots and looking for cracks or funny textures.
Apparently the link expires after a short period of time. I had the same result this morning. Yes ,the hydraulic tank has an air filter/ vent. #20 is the filter. #3 is the screen.
Thanks for the diagram! So, I've got a lot of crackly looking hoses going from small tube in tank. Going from transmission to trans cooler. All are like 1 inch looking rubber hose with clamps. A couple come from hydraulic tank with hose clamps. What size and type are these hoses? Just heater hose or what do they call it? What's weird is the main supply line from pump is a hard line down side of motor beside frame rail. It goes to filter. A "T" comes off the hard line right before the filter and it has a hose barb with a little 1 inch looking rubber line with a hose clamps going to front of machine to a cooler. How is it not under extreme pressure? Seems like it would be thread fitting and thick instead of cheap heater hose looking rubber! Wow!
I have minimal air pressure applied to tank. Not finding any leaks thus far. I did find a piece of pvc in the rubber line that hooks to the "t" right before the hydraulic spin on filter that runs to the hydraulic cooler. Someone has used a piece of pvc as a nipple inline of the hose. But no leaks around it. Must have been done by someone who borrowed my machine unbeknownst to me at some point in history. I'm gonna replace that hose but I don't think that's the problem. I am still amazed at how this small line t's off of the main line from the pump and can stand the pressure! Makes no sense. Also, why would one of the trans cooler lines hook into the hydraulic cooler system? Looks factory.
The hoses are not heater hoses, they're made for hydraulic fluid and whatever pressure is appropriate. The suction hose might have steel spiral like some radiator hoses so it doesn't collapse. If they are original and have id on them, then a hydraulic shop can match them up. Or you can order them online. If they have hose clamps then they're not full pressure, they're either back pressure from the cooler or some other relatively low pressure.
What pump does that use? If you blew a hose and ran the system extremely low on fluid it could be that the pump has been damaged, That is exactly what your symptoms would most indicate. I have not read all your posts and am coming in reading recent posts, is the problem worse when the oil is hot or is it the same hot or cold, deterioration of performance when hot would lean toward a pump, I spent all my career on Case hoes and can tell you that the newer pumps are not at all tolerant of running low in oil, they can be ruined by improper refilling of the hydraulic reservoir and running the engine to prime the pump, the reservoir must be pressurized till the pump is primed.
https://www.discounthydraulichose.com/SAE_100R4_Suction_and_Return_Hose_s/361.htm Sorry, I hadn't seen the pics of your suction hose before now. Here's one place to order suction hose, about $8/ft for 2". You could try squeezing those crimped spots back to round and see if that makes a difference. A 310C has a gear pump, right? Late 80's or early 90's. A picture of the pump can't hurt. And answer the rest of Melben's questions.
Thanks for your reply. It has only been run “extremely low” for a split second when a main hose ruptured underneath. It has been run a little low a few time due to leaking cylinders as in...knowing it was leaking ,checking, and adding fluid each day. I replaced the cooler lines from the trans to front cooler and the cooler lines from hydraulic tank to front cooler. The Red hose that was 5/8 that is safe for multi use (says safe for hydraulic). I bought a heavy duty gates red stripe hydraulic suction hose 2 inch from car quest. It was $100.00. 5 foot +/- long. When I replaced the hose and filled it up with fluid it would idle and I could pull loader bucket handle or boom stick and move like factory. Success. But....I haven’t used it on a project yet. Just moved it around my shop and unloaded a few things off trailer with it. After minimal momentary uses...it has a delay now....but the boom or bucket loader arms activate instantly but as they moved have a delay jerky response. The cylinder that are leaking are the main boom cylinder that is upside down...and the single Center cylinder that curls the bucket. They are the main leaks. I have slight weeping from swing cylinders and stabilizer cylinders. By the way....has anyone used herculesus . Com packing? I have a few times and it seems to be decent quality. I thought about ordering some packing kits from them. I’ve packed a few cylinders before.... I need to make a spanner wrench to remove outer barrel nut. On stuff like this backhoe....I’d have to use a pipe wrench to remove the piston/rod nut and when reinstalling....it’s hard to guess the torque. I guess just measure the load on removal with length of pipe and reassemble with same amount of effort? I hope I don’t need to hone barrels. Not sure where to buy a long hone for such a thing. Cylinders are not damaged...just leaking. Is it possible for cylinders to be leaking so bad that they allow packing material to go back through filter and cause delay? It does this hot or cold. I had replaced the filter right before replacing suction hose from tank to pump. Man....that suction hose was totally weak and deteriorated. Soft.
Thanks for your reply. I think I answered Melben questions? I did find some hose at car quest. $100.00 for 5 foot of red stripe gates hose. Cool wire embedded. It really, really helped machine out with idling and movements....but hasn’t taken away the weird jerking action. I’ve never been into the pump on a John Deere 310c. I wonder if they are rebuildable? What do they cost? Best place to buy? I may have a hydraulic pressure gauge somewhere. I wonder where I should tap in...how...and what it should read? It’s odd that in my area...Deere just isn’t as easy for knowledge and parts like a caterpillar is. Ever since metrac sold out I’ve not been too keen on Deere machines in the parts and repair category.
Are all the functions jerky? it could be air in the cylinders, try running the cylinders in and out all the way several times at full engine speed to see if it improves any. Does the oil still look murky? before and/or after using it? It could still be sucking air somewhere, or is there an intake screen in the hydraulic tank?
I have “kinda” played with this machine to get air out but nothing serious as my cylinders are leaking so bad that it’s not affordable to use it until I fix leaks. I ordered 3 complete cylinder packing kits from Heavyquip. So r part numbers are ambiguous according to Heavyquip. Any tips on repacking these cylinders with basic tools? How to know how much torque when replacing nut? Will probably be using a large pipe wrench and cheater pipe. Maybe I can count threads and location of proper side or nut before removing? Use a punch mark on nut and count thread and properly track how much cheater pipe I used to remove and use same to retighten? I need to dab a spammer wrench. Don’t wanna beat up outer dust seal nut by using a punch and hammer. Looks terrible when you do that. I was told to check the stroke control valve on hydraulic pump. It could be contaminated? Someone said it is rarely a hydraulic pump issue. Any tech tips on how to do this? Also, I have hydraulic pressure gauges but I do t have the quick-tach adapters. What adapter should I buy and where do I check pressures on a John Deere 310c? Thanks for any and all the help!
Did I tell you to check the stroke control valve? can't remember... Jdparts says a 310C is a gear pump, no stroke control valve. It helps to go to jdparts to double check anything unclear, the seal kits might change by serial number, or you might have to take the cylinder apart to match up the parts by looks, or something like "cast cylinder end" vs "welded cylinder end". I'd suggest a chicom/ harberfrate 1" drive socket set for the nuts, under $200 on sale. Length of the cheater pipe x weight of the gorrilla is good enough torque for me, you'll need a spec though. You might have the funny JD cylinder design, look up how those work, because it's not intuitive till you know what they're doing. You can fabricate a "wrench" to get that outer nut off, and if it's not easy, post a pic and we'll give you some tricks to make it come off easier.
I have “kinda” played with this machine to get air out but nothing serious as my cylinders are leaking so bad that it’s not affordable to use it until I fix leaks. I ordered 3 complete cylinder packing kits from Heavyquip. So r part numbers are ambiguous according to Heavyquip. Any tips on repacking these cylinders with basic tools? How to know how much torque when replacing nut? Will probably be using a large pipe wrench and cheater pipe. Maybe I can count threads and location of proper side or nut before removing? Use a punch mark on nut and count thread and properly track how much cheater pipe I used to remove and use same to retighten? I need to dab a spammer wrench. Don’t wanna beat up outer dust seal nut by using a punch and hammer. Looks terrible when you do that. I was told to check the Thank you sir for being helpful. Jdparts must be an online resource for jd machine parts diagrams and parts numbers? In my last post I had a few errors. I meant to say “fab a spanner wrench”. Dang spellcheck. I hope mine doesn’t have weird cylinders. I live in a rural area so parts and tools are mostly to be ordered. I need those quick connect things to fit to my hydraulic test gauges. I will be posting asking for advice. Glad for this site! What a technical resource that we are building here!
Yes, you only need to sign up for prices, otherwise it's easy to access, open to the public so to speak. You do have the weird cylinders, nothing wrong with them, just different. The nut comes off, the gland gets knocked back INTO the cylinder, and you fish out a wire ring from a groove inside the cylinder, then stuff an orange ring into that groove, pop out the rod and piston... I don't know what style fittings you gauges have, discount hydraulic hose at the top of this page is as easy as any to find what fits. The JD fittings are most likely flat faced o ring seal.
GReat....my luck I have weird cylinders. Where do I get this orange ring!!?? Is it to allow the piston to fall out or is it part of a seal that buffers the internal snap ring from hitting piston?
Like Delmer said ... not weird just Deere. As is the price (Pun intended) The orange ring is a tool included with Deere seal kits. Without the teardrop shaped cross section tool, the seals catch on the edge of the retaining groove. You might do a search using ORFS (O Ring Face Seal) to find the fittings to match the Deere OEM hydraulics. Use ORFS to find a chart with thread sizes to determine the fitting size number you need.
I have “kinda” played with this machine to get air out but nothing serious as my cylinders are leaking so bad that it’s not affordable to use it until I fix leaks. I ordered 3 complete cylinder packing kits from Heavyquip. So r part numbers are ambiguous according to Heavyquip. Any tips on repacking these cylinders with basic tools? How to know how much torque when replacing nut? Will probably be using a large pipe wrench and cheater pipe. Maybe I can count threads and location of proper side or nut before removing? Use a punch mark on nut and count thread and properly track how much cheater pipe I used to remove and use same to retighten? I need to dab a spammer wrench. Don’t wanna beat up outer dust seal nut by using a punch and hammer. Looks terrible when you do that. I was told to check the
Thanks for the reply. I ordered piston and rod packing kits from Heavyquip. Probably a costex or bulldog part. Think it’ll have orange tear drop tool? Or is that specific to Deere brand kits? Grrrr
Got my packing kits finally! Bulldog brand. Here is an example of one kit. Is the orange ring the one that protects the snapring hole from damaging packing as it slides over groove? I remove it after sliding piston back inside barrel or use it as a bumper to snap ring? Dumb question but making sure.. I wonder if there is a specific instruction for packing these cylinders? I’ve done old fashioned cylinders before...but not these. Check out the pics:
it's the right shade of orange but it looks like a backup ring, not the flat wedge ring you want to use for the groove. It might be inside the cylinder from the factory, seems like I've found them there on some. You don't need one, it will just help get the piston out without messing up the seals. If there's a ridge from the pressure on that ring, then the seals will be messed up even with the ring.
I found some pics of the filler ring and the ring in the cylinder groove in the cylinder
I've replaced seal kits like this before without that orange tool ring. After cleaning out the groove, I smeared a small amount of oil in the groove and then filled it with auto body filler. Assembled the cylinder soon after and then dug out the filler before it became too hard. The oil prevented the filler from sticking to the cylinder. Works as good or better than the orange tool.
No way? You smeared out in groove, mixed up body filler and smeared in groove? You only smoothed it with your finger? Did it not get on the packing as you slid it by? If dried..how did you get it smooth enough to mimic this ring? Jeez...that’s clever. A good idea. Or, I wonder if I can buy the orange filler ring somewhere cheap?
Sounds like a lot of mess & trouble to go the Bondo route. I would call the local Deere dealer and ask for a used filler ring. They get a new filler ring with every kit. Simply cut a large ring to the size you need.
Man....I’ve messed up. I called my local Deere dealer and parts person said I can’t get that ring unless I order kit from Deere. They don’t have any to sell. WTH? I hate being an advocate of Cat parts system and the options of aftermarket alternatives. But wow...I’ve not been happy with parts for Deere in years. Always something and heck...I consider Deere parts network etc... second to Cat. I’d go nuts with a Hyundai or something. You’d think these hydraulic suppliers like Hercules or bulldog would have that plastic ring for $.025. I guess I shoulda ordered the Deere brand packing! Ridiculous. Now I have to be creative. I’m thinking...bondo....silicone bead....no...silicone won’t put pressure down on the thing....ummmmm
So I found this posting somewhere else on this site. So...my bulldog kits does come with the orange ring? But I have to cut it to fit as it is universal? So that’s what the orange thing is I am holding in my posting of my packing kits is? I wonder if this is true. Seems soft and floppy...but idk.....?
Did you check the cylinder to see if it's in there? It seems odd that they'd come from the factory with the ring there, but I've found them on some that didn't seem like they'd been apart. The bondo should work fine, the only reason a shop wouldn't use bondo is the time to mix and let it set. It won't be any more mess than already comes out of there, I promise. They'll come out fine without anything in the groove too, might take more force and ruin the seals, which you're replacing anyway.
From what I can see... For the 310C boom cylinder the filler ring is p/n R91624 Can any one confirm for mountainmover ? About $15 all by itself.
Hi hosspuller. Thanks for the reply. Is there a deere part number? So I can actually order the proper ring? I’d like to have the right ring so I can repack other cylinders on the machine later. It’d be handy. The Flint Deere dealer said I can’t buy just the ring..... hmmmm
MM .. I got that P/N ( in post #43) From the Deere parts site ... it's public access I've asked the HEF brain trust to confirm it for you. I'm just a hobbyist. You should also call around too. As for the Flint dealer ... whom ever you spoke to doesn't seem to be working with you. More like tolerating your presence. Who are they ? Letting others know may change their ways. I'd find someone else to spent money with. Like I said before, I'm just a TLB hobbyist. I doubt my spend makes the last decimal point in their sales numbers. Yet, I get great help from my dealer/ parts / service guys.
Agreed, and you probably don't need a construction dealer to get that part, ag dealers have most of the common parts, and this is sure a common part.
Delmer has a good point. Any Deere dealer can get any Deere part. In fact, I ask my Deere backhoe dealer to order Deere LAWN Mower parts. They bring it in on their stock order saving me shipping charges.
They can? Seriously? I have a local john deere tractor dealer and they have tried to say they can't. I have to drive a couple of hours to Flint Deere Construction equipment dealer.
Thanks for the reply. Having to work on this backhoe at night after working all day. Got the Boom main cylinder off and just took the outer nut off with a spanner wrench that I use on old Cat dozers. It worked! So, now i am at the phase of removing internal snap ring. Having a hard time. I cant find my "pic" set. Maybe I can use some skinny screw drivers. What a pain. Wish there was a good trick for this...lol.
Thanks for all of the advice and info so far friends. So, I am up late and at the point of removing inner snap ring. Having some trouble...it just takes some fanagaling..... I found this video on youtube. The guy is a good mechanic and made a great video. He did....however confuse me on his version of what to use the orange ring for. Can anyone clarify? here is the video link:
seems to me you wouldnt wanna use the orange ring on the removal so you dont damage it and can use it for the install? its the saving the new packing that counts? not saving the old....
That might be what your rectangular cross section ring is for, I've never seen that so i don't know. The wedge ring is for getting the piston out. The groove is tapered so that the piston will go in, but catch coming out. the ring will slide up the taper and wedge if it's there when you push the piston in. You NEED a pic to get that ring out, a flat screwdriver pushed under the end of the ring gets it out of the groove, then grab it with the pick and pull it right out. if you push it too far, pull the rod out and seat the ring back in the groove and try again.
Hi. Thanks for the reply. So, I just picked the external ring that is in the barrel out. Its a round ring. Then, it slid out so far and caught at the piston and the piston ring in the barrel groove. My piston has two slots. I slid the rod and piston around until i saw the wedge or "come together" part of the piston ring. How do I hold it tight as I slide out? I have aftermarket packing kit from Bulldog so I have nothing to put in Barrel snap ring groove..... Do I need to go to the trouble of using bodo just to slide piston out? Seems like I can somehow hold that ring in place with a pick or there may be a trick? I will post pics in next reply here.
The notch in piston where taper “come together” part of piston ring is.
Here is cylinder pre-tear down. And here is damage to my packing on outer gland/rod. See the yellow piece laid over partially? And the black piece deteriorated behind it? This particular cylinder is the boom cylinder that mounta upside down with rod mounted downward. So when it leaks it pours!
I guess so, I don't remember seeing steel rings like that, but you definitely don't want to force it like I was talking about with synthetic seals. That bent over ring is what your orange ring is for, just never seen an orange one, or maybe just don't remember... Did the cylinder leak between the gland and the cylinder (around the nut)? or did it leak between the gland and the rod? That damage could have happened from pulling out the gland without the wedge in place, that o ring is a bit brittle after a few decades, a new one will slice but old ones crumble.
Gee ... Your Deere dealers seems to be most UN-helpful. One thing YOU can do to make it easy on them is to have a part number when you ask. Get yourself registered on the Deere parts catalog website https://jdparts.deere.com/servlet/c...eUnsigned?userAction=doNotSwitchToLandingPage
The cylinder would just pour fluid out like crazy when sitting around the end where the rod goes in and out. But not when running! Or not so much when running... but it was leaking so bad all the sudden I couldn’t run it long enough to diagnose my jerky jerky hydraulic issue that was the original reason for my post on this site! Now I’m in the cylinder repair end of the diagnosis. Domins effect!
Thanks. Good idea. I’m gonna register on the site like you recommend.
So, I finally got a hold of a very helpful guy at Flint Deere. He went over the top trying to help me. He was a service manager and some head guy was there from flint or Deere sitting in office with him. Maybe thats why he tried so hard? He went and looked all this up for me and called me back. He said they kinda have it set up where they push the sale of the whole packing kit but he found the individual part numbers. He said that because it’s such an older machine that he sees a history of where someone has ordered these....or whatever excuse. He said they usually have a third part person do cylinders lately....or they’d have some laying around shop. I told him I wanted the orange ring for my boom cylinder, bucket fuel cylinder, and steering cylinder. I didn’t wanna push for orange rings for all cylinders on machine cause the conversation was getting chaotic. Here are the part numbers: R91624 R91730 H180788 And the prices in no order were: $19.71 $23.00 $12.00 And then it has to be Fedexed from warehouse to me. Total of $84.37. For three aggravating plastic rings. Should have amazon/eBay this deal... What’s the advantage of this piston ring cylinder design? Or is it just who Deere sourced the hydraulic cylinder from and whatever design was cheapest that year?
MM .. You have found my reason for buying Genuine parts kits from Deere. The filler ring is included in the kit. Hydraulic shops don't need the ring because they have spare rings laying around. Until the ring is damaged, it can be reused over & over. So they buy after market kits. I'm glad you found someone to confirm the boom cylinder filler ring part number... (R91624) If I can find it, you can too. Be aware that Deere puts into a kit, several parts that are not used in every cylinder... because of design changes. You have to be a smart about rebuilding cylinders. Larger dealers have regular stock orders from the Deere warehouses OR can transfer parts location to location. A small dealer can't afford to stock a million parts and doesn't have the volume for daily stock orders. You might look at your choice of dealers and build a relationship with one of them. That relationship saves me a bunch of FedEx shipping charges. (yes, this puts the small guys at a disadvantage, but my first loyalty is to me. And getting my machine on the job) I may sound like a Deere fan boy... because it works for my four little Deere machines.
You make a lot of sense. It would be nice to model these rings and make one out of metal or something. Need something that lasts! I have better luck out of cat parts systems. But I know Deere is pretty close...just not around here for some reason. I tried the filler method. I used liquid steel putty. I left a film of oil in groove and I kneeled up small amounts and packed into groove. I tried to press it as smooth as possible. I had issues trying to sand the stuff inside the barrel with the rod in the way. Couldn’t get it smooth enough for the piston and ring to slide out. Panicked and had a hard time gouging our of groves. Bondo would work better..: but by the time I spent money on a bondo kit I would be almost near the prices or the needed rings and save myself the work. But, I think bondo would be the best way to go instead of epoxy. Does anyone know why they would design these cylinders this way? Seems to be overkill and unnecessary.
MM ... You might try using just one filler ring. Get the largest diameter ring. Do that cylinder first, then the next smaller diameter cylinder. cut the ring to fit. then the next. One ring three cylinders. I would guess using a single groove is less machining and cost than threading the cylinder bore. Also, inserting the seals with the groove pointing in avoids damaging the seals on sharp threads. I don't believe you need the filler ring to assemble the cylinder. It is called a Disassembly tool. Be glad it's not like the cylinders that have a wire one has to pull out of a hole to release the gland.
Thats a good Idea. But, alas, I have already ordered and recieved the 3 orange filler rings. I wanted some to keep cause I will be having to build the other cylinders on backhoe soon. What could be the reason for this design? Why would Deere choose this? Why not use the old fashioned simple cylinder design? This has the outer snap ring that is round, and the the piston ring that catches on the notch. Ridiculous. Patent issues? Cheapest vendor for cylinders with this design?
The ring allowed it to slide apart easily. But wow, why can’t someone 3 model they plastic thing and sell it on eBay for $5.00. Unreal. So...I guess there is packing on the inside of the that piston.....?
I sprayed white lithium grease as lube everywhere. That is why barrel looks odd and caked up. The white lithium grease is all over chrome rod.
Yes, there's an o ring to seal between the piston and rod. Looks like those seals are due for retirement, the o ring is probably in the same shape, or will be soon.
I have tried for days to get my John Deere website account set up. Keep getting this message when validating account after an email has been sent to verify:
you only need to register to get the prices and maybe order it in to your dealer. Everything else is open to the public. You get the numbers and go into your local dealer to get the RIGHT stuff. They're happy, you're happy. The ag dealer 4 miles away was much more helpful than the construction dealer an hour away in my case, more knowledgeable and more willing.
Oh, good. I guess parts prices are the same no matter what dealer you buy from? I have a local John Deere tractor dealer. They are always expensive for tractor stuff so I never go there. Guess that’s why I never buy my heavy equipment Deere parts there.....
Is it a good idea to use seal retainer when I press this outer dust seal in? Loctite brand of some kind? I guess I can use a similar size socket and hammer to tap it in?
SO, I found my service manual. Thank god. As I am putting the kit in this gland, I noticed that when taking my used kit out of the gland to install new....there is no o-ring to remove on the inner part. But my new kit has an o-ring. Where would this o-ring go? No grooves inside the gland. Part# jd:re31716
As long as you replaced everything that you took out with something that looks like it has the same function, and FITS, then don't worry about extra parts. You should be able to figure out where it would go by diameter, there's basically a kit for every rod size, and a kit for every cylinder size, add those together and you get the kit for a specific cylinder. That keeps the inventory lower, but there's some overlap of styles so there's extra pieces here and there. I don't know if prices vary, I'd imagine they'd be cheaper at ag dealers if anything. I know common stuff is competitive with aftermarket, because it has to be. I don't think you need anything on the wiper, never seen anything on one. and don't know what would work on rubber.
Thanks for the replies. So, the kit that came in a bag for the internal part of outer gland did not include the outer gland o-ring and backup ring that compressed between the gland and the cylinder Barrel just behind where the barrel snap ring and groove(where filler ring would go). But, the piston kit has a bunch of extra stuff and it has o-rings that look to be similar size and a black back up ring that Isn’t yellow like the original. Is it common for the piston kit to have the outer o ring and backup ring for the outer gland? Seems odd. I am referring to replacing the o ring and yellow flat plastic ring that was damaged as seen in this pic here:
That black ring on outer gland that is “mished mashed” behind they yellow ring they it twisted. It looked fibrous and flattened out and kinda square. But, is it really a damaged and broken down o-ring due to age that is now flattened and crumbly? Or am I needing some kind of fiber ring? The service manual is not super clear in information but it’s diagram says an o-ring and backup ring goes on outer gland against Barrel (original was flat thin yellow plastic ring that was twisted) See pic attached of item once removed:
Yes, that's what I said, the two kits go for two different diameters, one is the rod diameter, the other is the cylinder diameter. So this backhoe probably has four or five different diameter rods, and four or so different diameter cylinders, but they don't match, or all correspond to only one other size. Imagine for a second how many different cylinders Deere has made over the years in that style, there's a rod kit for each diameter, and a bore kit for each diameter, dozens of kits instead of thousands. Yes, that is a o ring and back up ring, that should be replaced with an o ring and back up ring in the same ORDER as they came out. The o rings go where they don't move, the seals go where they move with every stroke.
ok. got the piston packed and ready. I am putting it back together. Tightening the nut on the rod to hold the piston. I noticed that there was no o-ring inside the piston where it butts to the rod. So, i guess i wont put one now when putting back together. The piston only has that wear ring with rubber behind it and then that standard big flat wear ring. It was difficult getting that rubber piece on that goes under the outer wear ring. kept working it.... trying to figure best way to torque this thing with no torque wrench of this size. IT WAS TIGHT when removing. I used my 1 inch drive air wrench to remove. Can I use it to put back on? My pipe and pull handle is flexing too much. I used a punch to mark the nut and rod and a photo to count the threads at punch points.
Some locktite then do it up good and tight and it will be fine.
Hi. Sorry, I didn't see your message until now. I used a big pull handle with a pipe slid over it. Then. I hit it with impact watching marks on socket to see how far it turns. I counted the threads to match what it was before removing nut. I checked my punch mark on the nut and the punch mark on a 12 o'clock punch mark on outside of rod. And, I still counted threads. I also went a 1/4 past the measurement just to be sure. It is a LOCKING NUT with the plastic stuff still in good shape. I didnt use lock tight. Will it be ok anyways? Thanks for the advice. NOW....I have a new problem. I have it all together except outer gland NUT that finishes off outside of barrel. A couple of the other threads are deteriorated and knocked off. The threads beyond that are not damaged. I can't seem to get the outer Nut to start. It almost starts and then when it spins it falls back out of threads. Hmmmmm.....
The threads are buggered. Don't force it ! There is a spot that pushes the nut out of engagement. Get a small knife file and chase the external threads. Then a pick to chase the internal thread. You'll feel where the thread is damaged with the pick. Smooth that spot and the nut will go on.
Yes. You make sense. This thing...actually had a piece of metal that just had fallen off on the edge/corner where there was the introductory thread. I didnt hammer on it...its just corrosion of the metal and fallen off or something. I took a pic and follow the thread around and around and looked at the nut for the intro-thread spiral and timed it just right and put pressure against the nut with a block of wood. I cut a door knob hole in block of oak, then split the board in half...then hooked a ratchet strap on each end of the board and the other end of the cylinder. It pulled straight against the nut and i used spanner wrench to make it JUMP the missing thread. to keep the gland from falling inward i pulled the road out against it and tied that end off keeping pressure against the gland. WHEW! Close call! I have it together. Now, gotta sand and paint it before putting it back on machine. Hope the cylinder works and doesnt leak. The bulldog kit was confusing as the piston kit had the gland outer o-ring and back up ring. Not the gland kit. Was worried the o-ring would roll out as i pushed gland in despite being lubed. I also didnt understand why the piston wear ring that had the rubber lip behind it was a different width in the bulldog kit versus factory. the backing rings on each side must have been thicker to take up the slack? I am wondering if this cylinder is what was allowing air into my hydraulic causing herky jerky action? IT seemed to start leaking at the same time that i put on new suction hose from tank to pump. If you recall...earlier in this thread...when i put on the suction hose it solved my problem for a short while when backing out of shop and unloading some stuff from a truck. then...the jerky air pocket stuff started up again at the same time this upside down mount main boom cylinder started pouring fluid. The outer gland / barrel oring and backing ring (see yellow folded ring against degraded o-ring earlier in thread) may have allow the piston to suck in air when moving cylinder in and out?
Seems right that the piston kit had the gland/cylinder rings. It's the piston that sizes the cylinder like Delmer said before. The cylinder could have several different rod sizes.
Update! I had a death in the family. I ended up finishing the boom cylinder. Installed. I still had some weird air and delay in hydraulics. I then started on then front loader bucket cylinder. The Center cylinder that stands up and down as commonly seen on Deere backhoes. When taking the bucket curl cylinder apart....the orange plastic filler ring was still in it! The internal gland seals were bad and because the cylinder stands up and down with rod facing down...really poured! I rebuilt and repainted and reinstalled. Low and behold...my air in system problem disappeared! I wonder why? Fresh packed boom and bucket duel cylinders. Now...now herky jerky issues. I still need to rebuild the steering cylinder.
Question about the orange filler ring. Was the wire ring installed too ? If the wire ring was missing, what kept the gland from falling out of the cylinder ? I wonder if the wire ring is the correct diameter. Perhaps the wire ring diameter is incorrect and the orange filler ring made up the difference.
Good question. The wire ring was in there and was perfectly snug and tight in the groove. I’m not sure if the orange ring was there to shim up anything. I wish I had analyzed that. I didn’t put the orange ring back. I just assumed it was left in there from the factory by accident? I also wonder if my cylinder leaks were sucking air back into the hydraulics everytime it made an in and out stroke? It’s odd that this problem went away immediately after rebuild of both cylinders? Also...the main pump suction hose replacement helped some at first...but not totally.
I doubt the factory put the orange ring in. It's properly used for disassembly, allows the piston rings to pass over the groove without catching. The groove is tapered in, so not required when inserting piston.
The orange ring was from a previous rebuild or the factory. There aint no orange ring fairy, and it's not uncommon to find them in the cylinder.