Hello All, I am Jim. I am working on my neighbor's John Deere backhoe model 310D, serial# TO310DG813560. The hoe will not crank the when the key is turned, the alarm just sounds and the stop light comes on. The hoe will start and run just fine if you jump the solenoid on the starter, however. I am trying to diagnose the source of the electrical problem preventing the key from cranking the machine. Also, I know at this time, the alt is new (neighbor replaced it before I got involved) and key switch is also new. I start at the beginning with a test light, and no power is going to the solenoid from the key switch to signal the starter to crank, so I start checking fuses. The MFWD/ALT fuse is blown and blows a new one immediately upon making contact. Its obvious that the wire, labled P13, is shorted somewhere, but I can't find where it goes to. The harness in the dash has never been modified so it is still banded tightly together. Does anyone have a wiring schematic for this machine, or maybe have any idea where this wire runs to? Thanks, Jim.
Well, I found P13....LOL! I was going over the wiring on the back of the alternator from where the neighbor put it back on and he switched the ground with the 12v signal wire, P13, that tells the alternator to energize. I sure hope that didn't blow anything. Ok, found that and put a new fuse in the MFWD/ALT position and that part is fixed. It still wont try to crank when the key is turned. The "information" light comes on, alarm and stop lights come on, when the key is released back to the "on" position after trying to crank, the "information" light and ALT warning light stays on. When the key switch is turned, power comes out of the switch on the crank terminal, goes through the fuse (which is good) and into the neutral relay. Any suggestions would be helpful........
Ky, I'm not sure I can help but I've got something you can check. Your serial number is more recent than mine. I have a relay in the side console that the ignition switch needs to activate to turn the starter. I can see the relay in the Deere parts catalogue. On your model that is after serial numbers ending with 802200, that particular relay is not used. But there is different relay showing for the newer serial number but the catalogue does not list what it's for. I'm thinking is must be for the starter. If you have not already looked into the side console yourself, it may be wise to lift the cover and look to see if there is a relay connected to the ignition switch. If so you may find your troubles there. You probably already know this but a test light or meter won't help much here as the relay may click and make connection but a burnt contact won't carry enough amps to turn the starter. Good luck. Deon
Deon, thank you for your reply! Best I can tell, there are several relays that affect the starter circuit. I am pretty sure that this is how the "safety switches" that prevent the machine from being started when it isn't in neutral and when the parking brake isn't engaged. I switched out a couple of them and didn't have any luck. I am working with a local dealer now to try to get a printout of the wire harness. I am hoping this will greatly reduce the amount of time needed to find the short or bad safety switch that is preventing it from cranking. There is a black plastic box under the ignition switch, it has about 5 or 6 wires running into it and out of it. It is bolted to the framework under the removeable panel that houses the ignition switch, accessory switches, fuse and relay panel. Inside the box is just a circuit board, any idea what it is? Also, if you would please, could you post up the link to the parts catalog? I might be able to use that to tell what some of the componets are. Thanks, Jim.
Ky, Here is the Deere parts link. http://jdpc.deere.com/jdpc/servlet/...s.HomePageServlet_Alt?search=model&model=310D The relay I am reffering to is not a safety switch relay but the main heavy relay between the key switch and starter solenoid. Mine looks something like the old fashion starter relay like you would find in a 1975 Ford F150. Some people call this the starter solenoid. A black roundish thing with ring connectors. Yours may not look the same but this is what mine has.
I have this on my computer already. Couldn't find a schematic. The alternator, differential lock solenoid or the MFWD solenoid or wiring to either 1 can cause this. There are several inline diodes inside of left main frame. right beside the trans. If you have checked your alternator and its wires the other 2 systems share this fuse. Hope this helps.
Sorry just seen you got that fuse blowing problem fixed. In the pic above it is showing a start relay (K1) Does that have a small solenoid/relay switch mounted to back of console? It looks like it would be next to where horn is mounted?
Sorry it has taken me so long to get back here. I have been working 16 hour days this week and it hasn't left me much time for the net. Deon, I have seen the Ford solenoid looking thing that your talking about, but when I probed and tested it appeared to be a main power relay for all the circuits in the control box. It turns on when the key is switched on and then turns off when the key is turned to off. It stays hot as long as the key is in the on position, not the crank position. Thank you for posting the link to the Deere catalog!! Jeremiah, I really appreciate your help! I don't think this unit has the relay your speaking of, but I am not positive. It will be Sunday before I have a chance to look at it again but I will find out for sure then.
Try swapping known good relays into the K5, and K6 positions in the above diagram. It sounds to me like your hoe thinks its in gear.
If that does not produce results, i'd start checking the diodes next like JeremiahSr suggested.
Also, FYI your machine should have that K1 starter relay. The parts catalog link Deon posted is VERY accurate, and it shows 1. That link is Jonn Deere Parts Online, and the dealers use the same system for looking up and ordering parts.
I'm curious what that 12volt logic module controls on your particular machine? Part number AT107670, that bad boy is $170 if its bad. Ouch!
I don't have a clue what the logic module does either John, and I didn't have any luck with a wiring schematic either. I was told by the local dealer that they are a landscape dealer and not a heavy equipment dealer that they cannot download the file I need. The parts catalog that Deon posted above has been a big help though. Do you have any idea how to test the diodes? Yes, you are correct, the hoe acts like its in gear when you try to crank it. That's why I am spending the time testing everything from the switch back is to properly diagnose this problem. I am going to spend some more time with it tomorrow after church and hope I can at least figure out where the problem is so stay tuned....LOL!!
The print out i put up there is what is in the service manual. There is a schematic but i cant find mine. To test diodes get a multi-meter. Most have a setting to test diodes. Shouold run 1.5 volts 1 way but when you swap leads there should be zero voltage.
Ok, Been working on the hoe for a little bit and I have come up with this. Power to crank the engine comes out of the ignition switch and runs through the "start fuse" then from there through the neutral safety switch relay located right next to the fuses. The neutral safety switch relay is K6 in the diagram above. From there is disappears into the big fat convoluted tubing that goes out of the console and heads under the machine. I found the K1 start relay under the hood. I probed the terminals of this relay to determine how it was set up and then tested it and it is working fine, however it is not being told to crank the engine when the key is turned to the "crank" position. So I am guessing that this relay is there to put another safety switch in the system. I am thinking parking brake??? Does anyone have any idea what controls this relay? I forgot to mention above in my first post that I don't have any experience working on heavy equipment, however I have many years of experience working on about every other type of automotive, farm equipment, other machinery and lawn equipment electrical systems. The diodes, do they look like a rubber two prong electrical terminal with a jumper pushed into it? I found one of these under the dash then I found a bank of three zip-tied together, under the machine right over top of the front axle driveshaft and next to what looks like the main hydraulic filter.
Finished for the day. I am still pretty much stuck where I was but I did check all known diodes with my digital volt meter and all check ok. I am stuck at power to crank leaves the driver's console and goes under the machine in the main harness. Somewhere under the machine there is another safety switch that it runs through and then it is sent to the K1 relay next to the engine. The K1 is in proper working order, if it were told to crank the engine the engine would crank. So if anyone should have any idea what other switches under the machine that effect the crank circuit, please let me know. Thanks for your help, Jim.
Ky, I have been watching your posts here wishing I had something to help. I know you must be quite frustrated with all this. I can assure you I would. I should although mention something I found on mine but probably not the issue on yours as you live in much less rust prone area than I. Mine is an older 1992 that had a very rusted out cab bottom. I needed to replace all of the cab steel plating starting 6" above the side window bottoms going down. I now have basically a new cab. What I found that could maybe crate a problem like yours is some corrosion in the large wire connection that is located on the floor of the machine at the bottom of the side console. My machine did not exhibit any starting problems although the largest red wire connector (I hope my memory is correct) was quite green and swollen. The group of wire connectors were too compactly fitted in the connector housing to attempt to repair anything so I hard wired a jumper around the connection box to ensure that corrosion would never create a problem. Unfortunately this connection block is a sealed, glued together unit that was almost impossible to open. I needed to do it to replace the floor panels but you will not want to try to open that thing up. Really, it's best not to try. But you could install a temporary jumper from under the console out through the cab door and under the tractor as a test. But again, if your machine is not rusted anywhere I'm probably steering you in the absolute wrong direction.
Deon, Thank you for watching over this thread. I don't think that is the problem in this case. This hoe has mild surface rust on the hood but other than that she is pretty clean. I can see where the harness comes through the frame under the console and it looks fine there too. I could do the bypass however the man that owns the machine, my neighbor, would rather it be fixed right. So far, my nerves are doing good, but I can say that if I we were in a time crunch to get this fixed it would have me pretty fired up!....LOL!
This might sound simple, but you do have the FNR (Foward/Netural/Reverse) lever in Netural, right? Also, a faulty parkbrake switch, faulty key switch, or faulty FNR switch can cause your problems. I had to replace the key switch on my machine about 4 weeks ago because it was worn, and would only make connection to crank sometimes. People tend to jam any old key in, and it tends to prematurely wear the switch out. A $100 technical manual off of Ebay will have all the Sub-System Diagnostics checks to help you trace any problems on that machine. They are really a time saver, otherwise you just spin your wheels pulling your hair out. If you don't have it figured out by next monday when I return from hunting, I may be kind enough to scan and post the 10 key switch, start circuit diagnostic pages from my tech book. I have same vintage machine, but in 410E. Good luck
Johnny, sorry it took me so long to reply. I must have missed the email telling me someone had posted. i didn't get a chance to work on the hoe last weekend but I am going to make some time this week as I have a few extra days off work for the holiday. I read the owners manual and found that the machine needs to be in neutral before cranking and I tested that switch first. It is functioning properly. So I am thinking it is the parking brake switch. Power to crank the engine is leaving the control console but it is not making it to the starter relay under the hood, by the engine. So the signal is lost somewhere in between. I still have not had any luck getting a copy of the wiring schematic from the dealer and I would VERY MUCH appreciate it if you would take the time scan yours. If you would post it here that would be great or you can email it to me at [email protected] Also, we have already replaced the key switch. The neighbor bought one when the machine first starting acting up. I guess when I work on it next I am going to try to pull the floor out of the cab as it appears that its going to be the only way to access the parking brake. It is hidden pretty well on this particular machine.
KyHeadhunter, I have a service manuel so I started looking for something to help you out. But there is no electrical schematic in this manuel. BUT, I did find something sometime ago online. http://www.omnihost.us/files/JD310D/TM1496.PDF Once you have downloaded the file, just click anywhere on the page and go File, Save and save it to your computer. It will be called TM1496.pdf. I took the time to look through it. It is just what you need. Everything is in there. Open the file, look in the left column for Contents, Electrical System, Start Circuit Diagnostic Procedures. You should be in business. Let us know how you do.
Deon, THANK YOU, THANK YOU, and THANK YOU!!! That is exactly what I was looking for!! I really appreciate your help!! This manual will make it a breeze to figure the problem out. I will work on the how either Friday or Saturday and I will post up what I find just in case someone else ever has this same problem. Thank you again, Jim.
Well, I sure hope you don't but you never know...LOL. Happy Thanksgiving to you and yours from me and mine!
According to the schematic, power to crank from the F-N-R switch relay, (or K-6 "Neutral Relay") should run directly to the starter relay K1 out under the hood. I have checked this K1 relay and it is not getting signal to crank the engine. The parking brake is not part of the crank circuit so I am looking for a broken wire. This ought to be fun...LOL!
I don't have one of these yet, but others on this forum do for troubleshooting wiring issues. It is on my short list of things to get. www.powerprobe.com The thread on HEF where it is talked about: HeavyEquipmentForums
Are you sure that, K6-neutral relay is working? They can go bad. Try swapping it with one of the neighboring relays with the same part number.
KY, OK, now you have the right info. What did you find?
Just signed up when I saw your problem, check the neutral buttons, It has one on the gear shifter and one on the loader control. I have changed alot of them, sometimes you can feel a bad switch by pushing it. If not you can go to the bottom of each controller and unplug the harness and check the continuity with a volt meter.
Chismtrail, Tell us about the neutral buttons. Are they making contact when the button is not being pressed or when the button is pressed?
After looking in a book today I don't think on the "D" series the neutral button would keep it form starting. Would like to know he said he could jump the starter and it would start, but does the machine operate normal after starting? I would say pull the K6 relay and put a jumper wire between #30 and #87 and see if it started with the key. Like he said in post #26 a wire tracer is a great tool to have.
I would not jumper those 2 wires with a solid peice of wire just in case there is a short somewhere. You could end up melting an entire harness. If you want to try jumpering, solder a fastblow fuse in between your jumper wire so at least the fuse will blow if there is a short. I do like Chisumtrail's suggestion about checking that particular circut though. You need to make sure that realy circut and all its wiring are functioning properly.
Yes, I am sure its working. It lights a test light and doesn't change anything when swapped out with a known good relay.
Deon, I didn't get to work on the hoe last weekend like I thought I would. The wife's honey-do list prevailed...LOL!! I did get to spend a couple hours with it today though. I fired the hoe up and jacked it up as I high as I could using the stabilzers and front bucket. I took a drop light and started to examine the wiring harness under the machine. I found a spot where mice, I think, chewed through the outer jacket on the harness and into a few wires. The spot is located on the left rear of the engine, and this particular part of the harness carries the wires for the start aid, and you guessed it, the wires that lead to the K-1 relay as well as a few other things. My neighbor is a good man and a great friend and I know he wants the hoe fixed right so I started to unplug the back half of the engine harness. I am going to remove as much of the harness that I need to be able to gain access to it easily and make proper soldered repairs to the wires and be able to heat shrink them afterward. I am not going to just use bullet connectors as in a few years it would have to be done again after they start to corrode. That's where I made it before the wife called me for dinner. Tomorrow after church I am going to try to finish taking the harness loose and make the repairs. If I can remember, I will take my camera and snap a few pics of the damage before I start making repairs. Sorry it took me so long to update, but I didn't get a chance to look at till today. Deon, again, thank you so much for posting the link to the service manual! I was so nice today after seeing the bad wires to look at the schematic and know which wires ran through that part of the harness.
Chisumtrail, thank you for the advice. I am very familiar with electric systems on about everything except heavy equipment...LOL.
Well, as luck would have it, a couple things came up and we wasn't able to work on the hoe yesterday like I thought. We are planning on spending next Saturday on it and hope we will be able to get her finished. I will update our findings then. Hope everyone has a good week.
Well gentlemen, I sure apologize for the amount of time its taken for me to get to work on this job! My neighbor, (the man that owns the backhoe I was working on) took the hoe to a job and didn't bring it back home till last weekend. As I said before, I have found a couple places where mice had chewed the wire harness and I had hoped this would be the cure. So I pulled the how into my garage this morning, after church, and told him he wasn't going to get it back till I finish it this time...LOL. I have a couple chores around here that I need it for too!...LOL! The electrical issues I am trying to fix are: 1. The engine does NOT crank when the key is turned to the start position. However, the machine starts right up and performs as normal if you short out the starter solenoid with a screw driver. After studying the wiring schematic, I have found that the only "safety switch" that effects the crank circuit is the neutral switch, meaning the machine MUST be in neutral to crank the engine. All I know for sure at this time is that there is no "signal" to crank reaching the starter relay under the hood over the starter motor. 2. The alternator does not charge and the tach does not work, either. I know the two are related and the neighbor has already had the alternator rebuilt and that didn't help things any. Pulled her in my garage and took the cowl panel off. That's where the mice had chewed the wires. The part they chewed was under the hydraulic tank, and there was one coming out of the main harness going to the engine, right after the disconnect plug, that they also chewed, already fixed in this pic. Here is the harness that was chewed badly. Sadly, this was not my problem, as it was merely the cold start assist harness. Here is a close up of the damage the little critters did. Absolutely crazy!!
Sorry. I didn't know we aren't allowed to post pics. I guess next weekend I will get back on the job. My next plan of attack will be to double check the neutral safety switch and then pull the hood off to examine the rest of the main engine harness.
KyHeadhunter, Did you check the starter switch itself? A meter may not be a good test (no load) but you could run a temporary jumper from the switch to the starter solenoid.
Yes, the ignition switch itself is brand new. We put it in a couple months ago when we were first trying to figure out the problem. I do understand your point though. Signal to crank does leave the console in the cab when the key is turned to crank and checked with the test light but it don't reach the solenoid in the engine compartment. That's why I am still thinking that there is either another spot that is chewed or the neutral safety switch. If I had signal out there and still no crank I would think it could be a bad contact in the key switch. Again, sorry it took me so long to get back to this, but I don't own this hoe and when the neighbor can make a dollar or two with it that takes priority over fixing little things like this. Thank you very much for your help, Jim.
Well, after about 5 or 6 hours of studying the wiring schematic for the hoe, I figured out a good test sequence and followed through with it. I figured out which wire in the main harness plug between the cab harness and engine harness and tested for signal to crank there. Had signal coming from the cab side, but no continuity between the engine side of the plug and the K1 starter relay. With the sheet metal I had already removed, I could see all but about 6" in the harness and everything looked good, but the tests don't lie. So I pulled the hood and air cleaner assembly out of the way and sure enough I found another chewed spot in the harness. Three wires were chewed in half in this spot and I was able to make proper repairs without having to pull the harness loose. I took a couple more pics and will post them up in a little while after I get all the sheet metal put back on. It will be real nice to finally get this thing out of my garage!....LOL!
Ok, here are the pics I promised earlier. The final place I found chewed was in the K1 starter relay harness between the engine block and the hydraulic tank. It was a real nightmare to try to get to without pulling the entire engine harness out of the machine. I didn't have continuity between the harness plug and the relay so I went digging in there and found a chewed spot about the diameter of a cigarette. When I cut back the protective jacket, I found 3 wires chewed in half!! Furry little b@$*%ds!...LOL ! I took the pics after I cut the jacket away. I would very much like to thank everyone that helped me to complete this project!! You all helped me more than you could ever know!!! Thanks again, Jim http://i174.photobucket.com/albums/w105/kyheadhunter1/DSCN0626_zpsbf092d44.jpg http://i174.photobucket.com/albums/w105/kyheadhunter1/DSCN0627_zps260e6290.jpg
KyHeadhunter, I'm glad you finally got to the end of all this. You are a patient man. I don't know how we can keep those furry guys out of our machines, but they are bad news for sure. Thanks for replying with the results. That is what we all like to see.
Me too, Deon and your right, it takes patience to track down electrical problems. I told the neighbor that I thought this happened because he left the hoe parked out in the field for a couple weeks, instead of in his barn where the mice have other things to eat. It was my pleasure to post up my findings too as without everyones help on here the job would have been a whole lot harder. Especially you Deon, thank you again for posting up that link to the schematic.
I have a similar starting problem that I thought was a weak battery problem as the over winter battery Voltage was only 12.0 V.. I will also be checking the wiring harness now. thanks for posting.
John Deere 210C backhoe 1989 won't start and won't crank. Power to accessories weak. Suspecting bad contact so check the 2 relays in the side panel. They tested fine. Now I am trying to find instructions to bench test the logic module. I see the link above to the TM1496 pdf but have no clue how to get to it with omnihost.us . They want user name and password?.....Paul
It is a locked file. Deon posted the link and he most likely has the account user name and password. I would guess you would have to start a private conversation with him for information about it. I doubt he will share his username and password but, he may be able to copy the info you need and post it.
I don't think the Deeres of that era needed the logic module to start or run, it ONLY turns on the warning buzzers. That's a relatively simple starting and running wiring setup, there is a start relay and accessory relay which I assume are the two you checked, how did you check them? the voltage coming in and the voltage coming out under load are the only things that would matter to me. On another "C" the 11 Red wires are the power from the battery to the relays and on to the 'ignition switch" 11, 11B, 11C. If you have an 11 Red at those locations that should give you a start, if you don't have an 11 Red, then find which one is hot and it will be similar at the other two locations. Don't suspect something harder than it is, start from the most common, battery connections, weak battery etc.
I wish it were true that there was no module unfortunately this machine has a logic module. JD part website list the module as part number AT107670 . The logic module is sitting on my table with that part number on it.waiting for me to bench test it and move on or buy a new module for $471. I checked the relays(neutral start and park relay by putting an ohmmeter across the coil-54 and 56 ohms. Then put voltage across the coil and check the resistance of the contact-0.5 ohms. Tried jump starting with my truck to no avail. Unfortunately the issue is beyond the battery. There is another relay under the hood that go to the starter. I assume it is a starter relay but JD calls it "accessory relay". I would like to be able to test that relay as well but not sure how. I do have power to the battery terminal on the switch.
I believe I was in error on trying to get the link to TM1496. That is for the D version. The link I am looking for is TM1419 which is for the C version of the JD backhoes. Has anybody purchased a pdf of this or similar from an online source that is reputable?
Maybe this will help.
Thanks for that page. It will be helpful. Would you happen to have the "logic module bench test page" I believe it might be 9015-00-72 ?
Assuming this is the same logic module as other "C" deere backhoes. There is a logic module, it just doesn't have anything to do with starting or running, it is for turning on the warning buzzers like I SAID THE FIRST TIME. Go ahead and buy another one if you don't believe me, or test it to your hearts content. If it was me, I'd trace the wires and check the VOLTAGE coming out of the relays, and on down the line, ohms can be deceiving, volts don't lie.
Thanks Delmer for coming back and clarifying. I miss interpreted what you said the first time. I get it now and much appreciate you coming back on this. I will go forward with tracing the wires.
A simple way to do some tracing and voltage testing is to make up some test leads with alligator clips and some old extension cord wires, then you can put one on the small terminal on the starter solenoid, sit safely in the seat of the cab and turn the key to see if it's getting power. If you get no power then you can supply it with power if you have the dash open and see if the starter spins. Move to the positive battery terminal, repeat, then move to the next most suspicious part of wiring. Lots of fun ways to test. A "Power Probe" does the same thing more convieniently if you want to spend the $$$.
Here you go. Also, Delmer is correct. Logic Module has nothing to do with the machines ability to start. You should be following the schematic I provided earlier to find your root cause. If you have a volt meter, if the fuse is good, start at the"S" terminal of the starter and work your way backwards toward the battery through all the components listed until you reach 12 volts. Don't forget to measure voltage at the grounds of each component as well (relays, starter). If you measure voltage at the ground side of anything you have a bad ground. Are the batteries good? Cables good?
210C is now running after the help from mg2361 and Delmer. Thank you for getting me off the logic module trail. Found the ground battery cable terminal cracked. Then found a bad ground on the starter relay. Now the machine had lights and cranked the engine but no start. Then found a bad fuel solenoid fuse. All is well with my machine now. Again thanks for the help.
That's great news. Good job Paul!
jim...like you i have looked at everything but the ofisatly spelled wrong i know...i finally figured mine out...are you ready for this...lol... the control panel on mine lost it's ground.. grounded the panel and every thing works..grounds are the last thing anyone looks at.. hope this helps you out.... dean